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Snippets' offload plus a philosophical conundrum

Posted January 19th, 2012 by Ambo Suno

I'm in a deep philosophical dialogue with a friend via email. We are exploring logic based on Wittgenstein and I have to admit I'm in over my head - I'm stuck and don't know how to respond to him now. Any ideas? Here is where we are so far.

There are seven main propositions in the text. These are:

The world is everything that is the case.

What is the case (a fact) is the existence of states of affairs.

A logical picture of facts is a thought.

A thought is a proposition with a sense. (An elementary proposition is a truth-function of itself.)

A proposition is a truth-function of elementary propositions.

The general form of a proposition is the general form of a truth function, which is: . This is the general form of a proposition.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

]Proposition 1

The first chapter is very brief:

1 The world is all that is the case.

1.1 The world is the totality of facts, not of things.

1.11 The world is determined by the facts, and by their being all the facts.

1.12 For the totality of facts determines what is the case, and also whatever is not the case.

1.13 The facts in logical space are the world.

1.2 The world divides into facts.

1.21 Each item can be the case or not the case while everything else remains the same.

SEE WHAT I MEAN?

Hey, where's the beef?

1. The beef is nothing without case

2. What the beef is, is nothing, because it's devoid of case.

3. The logical picture of beef is a hamburger.

4. The hamburger does not exist.

5. Hunger is irrelevant.

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ou-est la boeuf?

Posted January 19th, 2012 by Layman Pascal

Not a tonne (Canadian) of context here. Is there a larger orientation driving these snippets of dialog? Otherwise it diverges readily into quasi-logical playfulness:

Beef is not a thing. It exists just in case.

That's a fact.

The question "Where's the beef?" does not ask about beef. It asks about the absence of beef.

There is no absence of beef. Only what is, is the case.

Logically, the hamburger is in the kitchen.

Old TV commercials are irrelevant when we are hungry.

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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thank you for answering the call, though you be unconsciously vegan

Posted January 19th, 2012 by Ambo Suno in response to ou-est la boeuf?

So what I hear you saying is:

Old TV cliches are dead.

The case of beef is in the kitchen.

Yet, all things being equal,

It is not beef, nor is it in the kitchen.

At which point you must ask,

Where is the dam context, Brudda,

For both the specific logical conundrum

And, more generally, the containment/non-containment of snippets.

Am I in the ballpark?

Which might lead the quest towards franks.

ambo

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Drawing himself up to full height, he said...

Posted January 19th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to thank you for answering the call, though you be...

1.0

Sir, I am a Plantist -- not a Vegan! Vegan is an ugly word and those who pronounce it with slight exaggeration immediately resemble rats. A Vegan shoe store has opened in my city! This has nothing to do with my body's disinterest in meat fats and animal proteins. An unlike Vegans I may indeed keep a case of your beef in my kitchen.

2.0

Also -- announcing that you are a Plantist is an excellent to provoke constructive dialog when visiting one's extended family for holiday meals.

etc.

Yes, the context of your snippets (and their opposites) bears an eerie resemblance to the Wittgensteinian content of said snippets.

Wittgenstein, as far I can project my beliefs onto him, wants to intensify our language. We already know, for example, that Reality is real. But if we stipulate that Reality consists of ONLY and ALL real things? Well, now we're pressing it a little. If we speak of the limit of speech, of the necessity for silence, of the necessity for speaking of silence, then we compel our words to a great task. We find them seething, over-full. We eliminate all absences. There were not there to begin with but now we have ruled them out. This means presence is suddenly shouting. The ballpark is crowded with fans!

There's beef everywhere!

BUT... only "everywhere".

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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You're forgetting

Posted January 19th, 2012 by Shikha Sabharwal

The Witness. The Observer, whose perception meets with 'facts' to create a world.

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In the trenches in America

Posted January 20th, 2012 by Ambo Suno

Changing the topic, here is a

trailer to a film

that has been out but not widely circulated. My coffee shop buddy who works for Elevate and promotes this film with Play-It-Forward technology (internet distributors for the movie Thrive) told me about it yesterday. On the you-tube page, when the film is done, there is provided some more footage - I link to one with the

interview of the 'star'

who has been in the dark trenches, trying to change, to "transform". I imagine that many of us know people like this and may have been like this, and still may be in the process ourselves. Modest basic tier steps, it seems. Touching, no?

ambo

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praise from a plantist

Posted January 20th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to In the trenches in America

Touching. Certainly. A paean to the intimacy between emotional, energetic & cellular health. Who knows what intensities of social, personal and spiritual transformation are being held up in the intestines, thwarted in the aortas, suppressed with pharmaceuticals, or poisoned with commercial sugars?

The natural energy of life, so present in the vulnerable and humorous individuals we encounter in the world, is inherently multi-quadrant. Our diet is not superfluous. Our emotional confessions are not superfluous. They are indissociable dimensions of our happiness, power, psychology and interpersonal Being.

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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surfing and transformation

Posted January 20th, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to praise from a plantist

--Hey thank you for sharing that Ambo...... what a wonderful story! I can hardly wait to get the movie. I wonder if he has fallen in love yet?

(By the way, I was in Santa Cruz after ISE3 with my boys... they were surfing. I was watching people and considering that a year of surfing daily would be a wonderful integral practice! What a wonderful way to spend time.)

Thanks, I am still

Jane McGillivray

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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Amen

Posted January 20th, 2012 by Ambo Suno in response to praise from a plantist

Stumbling towards that refinement myself.

ambo

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My Dinner With Andre

Posted January 21st, 2012 by Ambo Suno

That's the image that came to mind after reading so much recent articulate description, personal understanding, and inquiry about AC and his group's endeavor, the 'movement' of integral, and various other riffs. It's not an exact fit, but I saw an image of myself with an ambiguous expression on my face, mouth slightly agape, interested, perhaps fascinated and a bit overwhelmed at reports of new rich landscapes, injunctions, responsibilities, and 'good' worldviews, and yet a part of me holds back in perplexity and vague doubt.

I wasn't Andre, but the other guy, Wallace, at the table with this traveling, deeply experiencing friend who has recently returned from extended immersions. His facial expressions and his mixture of genuine yet skeptically probing questions portrayed a character who was more observer than actor. He was in moments blown a bit away but had the solidifying influence of his own inner defenses and strategies to keep him in his character, in who he was in this fringe-delving context. He was at his edge, yet not going over the edge, feet and toes finding enough resistive purchase in the rough and rooty soil of his known world to hold some of the ambiguity.

I'm not particularly pleased with this image of self, nor now affectively pleased with the film that was one of my favorites for a movie that stretched me.

Me, anxious and guardedly curious observer.

This image and metaphor has run out of steam, but the feeling of musty selfness lingers.

ambo

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the musty selfness.....

Posted January 21st, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to My Dinner With Andre

--yes, dangit, always the musty selfness.... maybe that drops one day, part and parcel of the mortal coil.....or wait, maybe it has to do with the wetsuit odour after all that surfing.....

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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My Dinner with Metaphors

Posted January 21st, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to the musty selfness.....

> The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

And with what thread is that fabric stitched?

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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That mystical thread!

Posted January 22nd, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to My Dinner with Metaphors

Well, Layman, Thanks for asking!

This is the most beautiful question ever. I love to turn it over in my mind's eye, not only for myself, but for every one of us..... What are we made out of? And how could that ever be? I am watching the physics experiment in Europe to see what becomes of the Bosons or whatever they are called. I have read what Stephen Hawkings has to say..... I am sure will make more headway with the answer in the RUQ. The thread-production process is, as Krishnamurti said, 'the spiritualization of matter and the materialization of spirit'. The interface of this process, the place where the snake eats its own tail, created this ribbon of divine muddiness.....it started as a great rip in the perfect fabric of no thing.... a great renting in the fabric of Nothingness. It was decisive and unstoppable Yes! (perhaps No Thing just got bored and could not stand it anymore) It exploded into all this apparent energy, shimmering for a time aimless, chaotic energy, it coalesced into balls of hydrogen, and balls of relationship. Stars exploded, galaxies were born, planets happened, and earth, and water and photosynthesis....well, you know the story! and then came the human, opposable thumbs, and word production and naming and differentiating and discoveries and inventions and self consciousness. Self consciousness has been a big wad to chew, with Narcissism all all that entails, including dishonesty and deception and delusion......but lately, there are refinements of this too: the ability to be conscious of Self, as TS Elliot said, something like "our journey will not cease until we return to that place from where we began and know it for the first time." . The thread it the reality tunnel from No Thing to Some Thing..... or something like that..... I often think of a this beautiful poem, by anonymous:

True love's the gift,

That God has given

To man alone

Beneath the heaven.

It is not fantasy's hot fire

Whose wishes soon as granted fly

It doth not live in deep desire

With dead desire,

It doth not die.

It is the secret sympathy,

The silver link,

The silken tie,

that heart to heart and mind to mind,

In body and in soul can bind.

The thread: true love, the secret sympathy, the open secret, a river of molecules flowing through and giving apparent form, fledgling intention. That is about as much as I have come up with so far. What about you?

Jane

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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plucking at threads

Posted January 22nd, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to That mystical thread!

A beautifully energized response, Jane.

I'm tempted to launch into one of my trademarked tirades against conventional astrophysical theory -- dissing Stephen Hawking, asserting that it is disingenuous to say that Something came from Nothing, denying that Universe can have a creation, and minimizing the significance of the 13.7 billion years. But I'll go more constructively on the topic of the "thread" since you were so kind as to provide a vibrant and comprehensive perspective.

Energy & Semantics (outsides & insides)

primordial, perpetually dancing entangled with each other across Time & space,

tracing a pathway where form & substance splice together

with such temporary perfection

that a surplus of patterning power call'd Naturlness, Utility & Beauty is generated.

This gives momentum.

It makes more of the successful developmental patterning more likely,

increases the intensity with which form & substance, inner & outer, idea & fact,

word & feeling can mutually creatively reinforce each other.

This line of spliced tracery where Shiva & Shakti touch in their dancing,

this line between awareness & content, snaking forward between structures & perception,

the sheet of paper that allows maps & worlds to match up,

the fecundity of the beach between land & sea,

the interstitial threshold where emergence occurs,

the mystery between intention & action,

the membrane between society & its collective mind,

the compass heading that splits the world in half

and unites these halves in the same gesture...

Northward to the Pole!

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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My heart soars.

Posted January 22nd, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to plucking at threads

thank you Layman. Awesome thread!

BTW, you can try your astrophysical tirade on me if you want. I will tell you what I think. I only have Physics 101 in University, but I was born trying to figure out the unified field equation....really!

--The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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hi

Posted January 23rd, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to My heart soars.

Okay, here's a brief summary my physics:

1. The Universe is a Non-Starter. We cannot conceptualize "nothing" so we cannot use "absence" in our models even as an abstract contrast. Thus we cannot have models based on an appearance from out of Nothing. The universe did not emerge from nothing... if anything it emerged from Nothing Else.

2. Space-Time-Energy-Consciousness. All four are intimately entwined and required for any occurrence. Even the first occurrence. Beginning takes time and space. There was never any 'before time and space'.

3. The Big Bang. Assuming (as big IF) that our assumptions, data and algorithms are both appropriate and properly executed we have a 13.7 billion year history of... not 'universe' but mass. This is a particular regime of energy-space-time-consciousness. Prior to this threshold is... endless other regimes of massless energy.

4. Finite in Space, Infinite in Time. Infinity as end-less process is perfectly acceptable but infinity as endless expanse is not. We cannot conceive an infinite space but delude ourselves with our ability to simultaneously conceive space and infinite time of potentially traveling through it.

5. No Multiple Universes. This is just post-modernism sprouting in the souls of physics. We could vary definitions but lets keep uni-verse meaning the totality so that we don't start thinking we can conceive of other regions in higher spaces.

6. No Higher Spaces. Like 'nothing' or 'timeless' we cannot theorize using 'space-other-than-space'. It has no philosophical validity. It only teases the boundary condition of our minds. This has a useful stimulating effect but is no basis for a reality map. In an absolute sense this means no spatial expansion (no space into which space could expand). However a local region of space-time could stretch... but personally I find the adoption of "red shift as proof" to be more ideological than astrophysical. Steady state universes are contra-indicated by monotheistic imperialism and the subliminal influence of expansionist global capital. Physicists do not escape these influences unless they recognize them and work to elude them.

7. Prior Perfect & Endless Perfecting. The directionality of cosmic development must be such that the telos is arrived at continually AND a path of improvement still exists. This is not difficult to envision. If all forms are the result of an attainment of a particular patterning 'ethos' they can participate in the resonant perfection of all being. Yet there is indefinite "room" for improvement in terms of the synchronized mutuality of these perfect parts into emergent forms of increasing average interiority and complexity.

8. No Past or Future. There is simply 'no place' for them. We need to collapse possibilities and histories into traces upon the present in order theorize correctly. We need, as Whitehead suggested, to stop using this silly idea of a "line" or "river" of Time. (However, the "size" of the present may be a little weirder than we suspect).

9. Bottom Turtles. There are upper and lower limits on the physics of both the mass-bearing and massless subtle universe. And the causal reality is not "limitless" so much as it intensifies the power of limitation to perfection and binds itself so completely that in our sloppiness we feel that limit itself has been broken and a regime of physical endlessness surrounds us. This is a way of letting ourselves off the hook for an intensely boundaried condition which is implicit with the non-dual divinity... not "beside" or "inside the expanse of" the non-dual divinity.

10. Duality is the real Non-Duality -- running out of computer time. That should be enough for now.

And Hi.

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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Cooking Andre's Dinner with Gas.

Posted January 24th, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to hi

Lovely......

13.7 billion years is the history of a mass.... this is great.... and helpful to me.

Consciousness and Energy are the real chicken and egg. Particularly, I am interested in Newton's third law of motion, that every action has an equal and opposite reaction and how and if it holds in this situation. Consciousness and Energy appear to be bound together with this third law. Mass appears as the extension of consciousness, and the consciousness appears as the intention of the mass. And low and behold, they meet(against all odds but one), in me and you and us and we...... Generally, the east and west meet in this chimera of Being.

Does it follow that 'intention' is the equal and opposite of 'the speed of light squared'?

Is consciousness 'mass-less energy'? Is mass 'inert consciousness'?

I dunno, but it seems to me that the ingredients in Andre's supper boil down to 'massless energy' and 'inert consciousness'.... served up with all manner of fanfare(ie. the history or consciousness of the mass of the known universe) on the palate of the uroborus aka Old Man Eternity, or Chronos the god who eats his own children........

well, and like every good dinner party, it is all held together with a band aid.

Tell me more Layman..... You are such a smarty!....

and Hi.

Jane

The speed of light squared is equal and opposite to our intention, such that we are always at the beginning and at the end at the same time(now) and in the same space(here).

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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hi again, again -- for mutual gain?

Posted January 24th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Cooking Andre's Dinner with Gas.

>Tell me more Layman..... You are such a smarty!

You're too kind. It's probably just these new pants I got...

ON NEWTON'S 3RD LAW

It seems reliable that inner & outer (what I would call Semantic & Energetic) have a high degree of reciprocity. However it is unclear how directly this can be correlated to the reciprocal dynamics of mass-bearing energy indicated by Newton's work. One might even think that subjective & objective reality must contain a structural imbalance in order to produce the evolutionary direction through their constant "mutual correcting" activity.

ON CONSCIOUS ENERGY

Consciousness may be distinguished from mass-less energy... since we can be conscious OF mass-less energy. Yet we may wish to differentiate the basic omnipresent capacity for awareness from something like the "force of consciousness" which presumably operates locally through some energetic medium.

If we definite consciousness as the amplification of awareness which occurs in conjunction with increased energy flow through more complex structures adhering more comprehensively to the teleological patterning-aesthetic pursued from within matter by the interaction of Semantic Potentials and Energetic Potentials that orient all manifest events in this (only this) space-time... then we will probably have to go back to the beginning of this sentence and start again.

Ta da!

So interiors and exteriors must be something like equal & opposite but also something like imbalanced & mutually interfering. My sense is that the goal of the physical universe is like that of psychoanalysis or poetry or moment-to-moment meditation... to successfully match up the semantic and energetic patterns. This suggests, however, that they alternate between matched and non-matched (even if we conceive of this as a merely relative difference between more or less comprehensiveness of matching). So perhaps your sense of the of equal-opposite dynamics of "consciousness" and "energy" is (pragmatically speaking) less of a description of what IS than of what we need to produce?

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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so in those rare and glorious moments

Posted January 24th, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to hi again, again -- for mutual gain?

when semantic and energetic patterns are 'matched, do you think that these are moments when 'enlightenment' is 'produced', where the grid is activated, so to speak? Are these spots where upleveling is possible, where the perspective changes, as does the view, and the viewer?

'So interiors and exteriors must be something like equal & opposite but also something like imbalanced & mutually interfering'--- This always seems to be the mystery to me, the imbalance and the mutually interfering bit.... like, what would have created this warble and thus the great springing into all this 'stuff' and 'thinking'. It is the perfect error.... and, sigh..... back into the endless run-on, run-away sentence: "If we define consciousness as the amplification of awareness which occurs in conjunction with increased energy flow through more complex structures adhering more comprehensively to the teleological patterning-aesthetic pursued from within matter by the interaction of Semantic Potentials and Energetic Potentials that orient all manifest events in this (only this) space-time... then we will probably have to go back to the beginning of this sentence and start again." I am not sure how many more loops my brain can manage.... but so far so good, at least today.... I need a pair of them new pants what you got. Mark's Work Wear House?

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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the emperor's new pants

Posted January 24th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to so in those rare and glorious moments

Yes, I think each of these matches is a moment of "progress" which, when occurring at large enough levels, are the state-experiences & illuminating insights & successful spiritual work upon which self-transcendence relies. In a fractal sense the larger shifts reiterate the same movement as the micro-shifts.

The perfect error -- well said.

Very Hegelian.

Hegel's Work Wear House?

Thanks, I've been...

Layman Pascal

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the perfect error...

Posted January 24th, 2012 by Jane McGillivray in response to the emperor's new pants

-here were some earlier thoughts pertaining to the perfect error:

http://integrallife.com/member/jane-mcgillivray/blog/integral-greeting-card-writers-

Those words, though, "the perfect error", are not my own, they are my sister Jocelyn's: she wrote song about it.

"dance of terror, dance of perfect error, dance on a razor, the dance of life." I'll have to go listen to it now!

And look up Hegel, again.... I don't have a memory for all those guys.

The fabric of my life is the cloth with which it is my task to polish the lens of my own perception.

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Snippets' offload plus a philosophical conundrum

ou-est la boeuf?

thank you for answering the call, though you be unconsciously vegan

Drawing himself up to full height, he said...

Well, then

You're forgetting

no more than a permanent lapse

In the trenches in America

praise from a plantist

surfing and transformation

ISE & surfing Santa Cruz

Amen

My Dinner With Andre

the musty selfness.....

My Dinner with Metaphors

That mystical thread!

plucking at threads

My heart soars.

hi

Cooking Andre's Dinner with Gas.

hi again, again -- for mutual gain?

so in those rare and glorious moments

the emperor's new pants

the perfect error...

perfect errors