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The Mean Green Meme Hypothesis: Fact or Fiction?

Posted May 11th, 2009 by barbi hammond in SDi

It should be apparent by those who are active members in these forums that one doesn't necessarily have to be second-tier or beyond to subscribe to Ken Wilber's integral theory. This in itself strains the credibility of "Integral" itself when so many of Wilber's adherents are suspiciously first-tier. Much of this I feel has to do with his recent (post 2002) critiques of green/yellow and blue/orange attacks against orange, which he confuses with MGM, according to one study (see next link) and the attraction of such a concept to orange goal-oriented centers of gravity attempting to bypass green altogether to arrive at nirvana (which many equate with second- or third-tier). Which--according to spiraldynamics.org--"puts barriers in the way of people ready to exit ER [Orange] who are misled into believing that FS [Green] is a bad thing rather than a necessary developmental step...."

The Mean Green Meme Hypothesis: Fact or Fiction?
by Natasha Todorovic

http://www.spiraldynamics.org/documents/MGM_hyp.pdf

Spiral Dynamics - FAQs - Integral

http://spiraldynamics.org/faq_integral.htm

According to Graves, first tier is concerned with "doing and subsistence" (surviving, doing, belonging, having, sharing, becoming) whereas second tier and beyond are involved with "being." However, "being" in second tier is not so much concerned with "self-actualization" (green or yellow) or with "self-transcendance" (yellow, turquoise or beyond) as it is with survival of the Earth system as a whole and on the acceptance of the incursion of dynamics, paradox, and the existential acceptance of obliteration. The second tier is actually an onto-phylo recapitulation of stages in the first tier, except on the planetary level. That is to say--survivial becomes once again the primary concern in the first stage of second tier ("yellow")--except this time, not on the biological or individual level but on the planetary level.

Since we've yet to resolve these existential questions on the planetary level, proponents of Graves' Spiral Dynamics feel that it is far too premature to attempt to elucidate any third-tier consciousness on the individual level. Third tier--if following the 6 on 6 pattern of Spiral Dynamics--requires resolution of planetary existential issues before moving on from second-tier consciousness. This means that if the SD theory holds up, these stages of development are cyclical except more complex as we move to planetary and beyond. Meaning it is not a pyramid scheme of 6 stages at first tier, 2 at second and 1 at the "pinnacle" third third tier, as Wilber has proposed (which sounds "three dimensional" and "goal oriented")--but rather an ever-dynamic and complex cyclical pattern of transcendance and inclusion. This also conforms with the Gebserian theory that there is no "goal orientation" toward some utopia but rather, "mutations" instead. From Spiral Dynamics FAQ:

Rather than a focus on having and doing—subsistence issues—he found subjects in this range [first to second tier--or green/yellow] shifted toward a "being" approach to life with a degree of resignation to coping with the existential realities at hand. (Maslow had hypothesized a similar phenomenon, as had others of his era.)

Graves also hypothesized a move from a sense of plenty in the first rendition of the six basic coping themes to a concern with managing scarcity in the being levels that would come next, a reverse of Maslow. Because of similarities between the first subsistence system (survival) and the first being-level system (survival in globalized context), and parallels between the second subsistence (tribal) and second being (mega-tribal), he concluded that human nature might well emerge like a symphony with these themes repeating, six-upon-six-upon six.

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Integral and Spiral Dynamics

Posted May 11th, 2009 by Linda Hollier

Hi Barbi

I have just recently read “Myth Busting and Metric Making” and found it to be excellent. The concept of “The Development of Reasoning About Levels of Development” becomes particulary relevant in the light of your post and when looking at links such as the ones you have posted.

Having said that, when I read between the lines of all these articles it seems to me that there is also something else afoot.

Your question, “The Mean Green Meme Hypothesis: Fact or Fiction?” could be highlighting an underlying feud between the proponents of these two theories.

Zachary Stein, in the above-mentioned link says,“Not any theory and its concomitant interventions should reach the market. We need to be concerned first about what justifies the approach and then about how exciting or revolutionary it is. Right now we are mainly concerned with the latter. How many peer-reviewed empirical studies are published confirming the efficacy and validly of Spiral Dynamics; not stories about its use or antidotes of success, but studies on the validity of it basic constructs and measures? Answer: next to none. But how popular is this approach? Answer: It is one of the most popular approaches out there and its language is ubiquitous. But this in not just about Spiral Dynamics, comparable criticisms could be leveled at other approaches. In general, we need to refashion the discourse about which developmental approaches are best.”

Natasha Todorovic in your link states “hence, the proposition that those who are centralized in the Green Meme are highly critical is spurious. It appears that Wilber and other MGM aficionados are actually confusing entering or nodal Orange with Green” and elsewhere, “it is not the purpose of this paper to argue with Ken Wilber’s self-assessment or his judgments of others, only to say that such use of the theory is neither helpful nor enlightening.” There are similar what I would call “digs” at Wilber throughout this paper and these can also be found in the second link you have given.

I appreciate the way you have approached the topic of the MGM and would be interested in your views on the antagonism between the two groups that I am picking up. Which makes me think – I am very aware of being sensitive to energies when I enter a room or join a group of people. Is it possible for articles to give off a distinct energy in cyberspace?

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Pyramid?

Posted May 11th, 2009 by Linda Hollier

Meaning it is not a pyramid scheme of 6 stages at first tier, 2 at second and 1 at the "pinnacle" third third tier, as Wilber has proposed (which sounds "three dimensional" and "goal oriented")--but rather an ever-dynamic and complex cyclical pattern of transcendance and inclusion.

I have never thought of Wilber's scheme in terms of a pyramid. At third tier there is mention of indigo, violet, ultraviolet and clear light. He has also always stressed the evolutionary nature of development and therefore I do not see how you can speak about a pinnacle or goal orientation. Please explain.

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The critique still stands

Posted May 11th, 2009 by barbi hammond in response to Pyramid?

Yes, you are correct that in his later writings, Ken adds more colours to the third tier such that the altitudes no longer resemble a simple "pyramidal" structure. I believe that spiraldynamics.org's objections to Ken Wilber had more to do with an earlier version of his Altitudes that placed Indigo (Graves' "Coral" stage) at the "top" of a pyramid (level one of third tier) in a tier by itself (prior to his addition of 3 or 4 stages beyond Indigo at third tier) when, in fact, "Coral" is level three (of six) in second-tier consciousness and is thought to be a stage that is not yet available to humans.

(Whereas level one, Yellow, would correspond to survival of "me" and level two, Turquoise, to survival of "we" (both of which are stages that pertain to survival issues whether at the physical or planetary level), level three is expected to correspond to the mega-tribal of red which I believe would be the first level that is no longer concerned with mere "brute survival" (having sufficiently resolved survival issues at levels one and two) except at the planetary level of Being). Obviously we have not resolved survival issues on a planetary level to move on to level three--whether as a "stage" or as a "tier."

Since his "Altitudes" is based on Spiral Dynamics and is not his own idea, it would seem that KW would want to adhere to the six-on-six-on-six pattern as noted by Claire Graves and others than to "change" it outright by placing Coral (or what he calls "Indigo") at a full tier-jump ahead of Turquoise when we are still at a very precarious stage of existence as a planet and face the very real threat and possibility of extinction by the end of the century due to climate change and planetary scarcity issues. Thus, the critique still stands since according to Ken Wilber, second tier consciousness (which in Spiral Dynamics concerns the existential survival of planetary "Being" during a time of planetary scarcity and climate change), is apparently of not much import or consequence to Wilberians if only two "stages" (Yellow and Turquoise) are or were sufficient to resolve these planetary problems such that some of them are already taking a ride through the Milky Way on a Galactic Night Train with Barbarella or Indigo Boy and dealing with third tier supermind issues (or whatever consciousness concerns itself with beyond the planetary existential issues at second tier).

The authors of the links above (including your author in the link to "Myth of the Metals") caution against putting too much faith or stock in the colour schemes themselves. The authors of spiraldynamics.org recommend focusing instead on Clare Graves' original writing of double-helix patterns and letter-code combinations instead of these colour-schemes. Given all this, I think it would be wise for us to re-think the current thinking of Integral to elaborate on questionable colour schemes without any kind of validation process to confirm their existence from other sources.

In Spiral Dynamics, indigo is referred to as coral, which is not Level 1 of third tier but Level 3 of second tier instead. This stage is tentatively proposed to be the next stage or "Level of Being" once Level 2 of second tier, turquoise, has sufficiently consolidated into consciousness to positively effectuate the world, and once the current life conditions (times, place, problems, circumstances, etc.) finds turquoise to be no longer adequate for the task of changing the world. After which point, decline sets in as the next stage, coral, emerges and is activated into neurobiological Coping Systems (mind/brains). At present, according to these authors, there is no evidence that Levels of Existences beyond turquoise have emerged nor the life conditions that would activate these higher Coping Systems. In addition, the authors note that Graves' conception of "tiers" was based on the repetition of the prior six levels at each higher tier and that the "leading edge" of consciousness is only at level 2 of second tier--which has correspondences to Level 2 of first tier.

But rarely do we ever hear about what these other stages beyond indigo "mean" in Integral theory. So for all intents and purposes--it is still pretty much a pyramid scheme. In fact--all I really ever hear discussed in Integral theory are stages of development up to turquoise, which usually is lumped together categorically with yellow with little attempt to elaborate on the differences between yellow and turquoise other than to point out that yellow (KW's Teal) is more secular than the more spiritually-enlightened Integral turquoise.

In Spiral Dynamics, indigo would be the equivalent of coral, the next stage, but not necessarily because coral/indigo is more spiritually enlightened than turquoise (although it may well be) inasmuch as coral is a "warm" colour tone that is expected to follow cool turquoise (to be in keeping with the basic alternating pattern or colour scheme that has consistently alternated between warm and cool tones throughout the stages up to turquoise and corresponded to levels of existence in previous tiers). My take is that in Integral theory, these levels operate independently of the life conditions that require them so are more or tailored for the purpose of goal-orientation in those who are so inclined to personal development or individual success irrespective of whether or not their transformations change the world. I could be wrong, but that is my overall impression.

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methodology

Posted May 13th, 2009 by David Marshall

Hi Barbi,

You raise some interesting points, on this and other blogs.

With regard to Todorovic's study, I think we need to keep one thing in mind--the methodology she used.

The MGM is defined by Green values/cognition with Red shadow, but Todorovic's methodology consisted of asking people who tested Green whether they also had a Red shadow. And they answered, no, of course not! Me? I denounce everything Red!

That's what we would expect most people to say, including Green, because shadow is what we aren't aware of. Some other sort of methodology would be necessary here, such as observation of people who tested as Green by Turquoise researchers who would be able to tell if they occassionally came across with Red shadow, MGM, whether it was some kind of a cultural trait, etc.

Ken did praise Todorovic for her work on Spiral Dynamics in Integral Spirituality, but I think somewhere he might have mentioned this about methodology with respect to her study on the MGM, but I can't find it now.

All the best,

David

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The Todorovic stody

Posted May 15th, 2009 by barbi hammond in response to methodology

Actually, the Todorovic study, as I understand it, did not test people who tested for "green" specifically. People from all levels were tested but of all "types," green and green/yellow rejected red the most.

Another thing about the methodology: I didn't get from the pdf summary that the methodology used was simply to test those at green by asking them whether they had a "red" shadow. All levels were tested, but the questions asked were from a variety of different value systems that did not identify which value system or levels the questions were derived from. I suppose that it's possible for those who are intimately familiar with the details of Gravesean theory to "cheat" on the test by intentionally rejecting any and all questions that sounded "red," but I am doubtful that the methodology involved would be that simplistic.

The point is, and I agree, that while there may well be a thing such as a "MGM," there is too much emphasis on the "red" shadow of green in the Integral Movement. As a consequence, people try to dissociate from green and do not recognize that red can be a shadow for any level but appears to have a much greater affinity with orange (after all, Clare Graves believed that it wasn't the "MGM" that would do us in on the planetary level but the "MOM" instead, in so many words). Another thing is that red isn't "all bad." Any time you experience familial bonding, romantic love, music, emotion, telepathy, or magic you are in "red." There are of course the violent and narcissistic aspects of red, but I think that people focus too much on the negative aspects of red while forgetting all the positive.

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Red, Amber, Green, Teal, Turquoise . . .

Posted May 15th, 2009 by David Marshall in response to The Todorovic stody

Hi, Barbi.

I think you have a good point that we can have Red shadow in any meme. That seems to be the case. Also, yes, more likely that the MOM will do us in sooner than the MGM! :)

I think the reason integralites focus on the MGM is probably because that is what they bump into in integral discussions. MGM is one of the things that will counter integral as it tries to get a foothold. And, yes, it's also possible not to integrate enough of Green.

I think you're also right that there are positive aspects to Red, such as integrating power and self-interest when necessary and appropriate. Familial bonding and romantic love would be aspects of Amber, according to the chart on page 212 in Integral Psychology.

Magic might be in Red, also in Magenta. Telepathy might also be there unless it's the real kind of telepathy, if we agree such a thing exists, in which case it would be higher, Turquoise or Indigo, or perhaps it's on a different line.

Yes, I think you're right that people often forget about the postive applications of Red, particularly Green, don't you think, while demonstrating it in an unconscious way?

David

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testing false positive

Posted May 15th, 2009 by barbi hammond in response to Red, Amber, Green, Teal, Turquoise . . .

David,

Please give me a concrete example of the following:

The reason I am highly skeptical of the above as being the most prevalent issue within the Integral Life community is that I notice that a significant number of IL members appear to be orange transitioning into green rather than green trying to transition into integral or second-tier transitioning to third. Being orange, such people may be naturally inclined to think that they are at a higher tier than what they actually are and are looking down on the "MGM" as an inferior trait when, in fact, they are orange and cannot differentiate the healthy green from the MGM because they are not yet at green.

Familial bond is the fact that Red represents tribal in Gravsean theory.

This could also refer to ethnocentric blue in the extended family sense, but prior to early civilizations or kingdoms there were tribes composed of family units and ancestor worship.

Romantic love actually refers not to "heart" (as in blue) but to "viscera" (copulation).

Gebser defines telepathy as a form of communication that is possible only prior to spoken language. It would therefore refer to one-dimensional magic, although Graves, Wilber, et. al., divide "magic" into three confusing stages between beige, magenta, and red.

It is possible to reactivate positive aspects of magic one-dimensional in integral, according to Gebser. But until then such powers as magic and telepathy are lost with the emergence of spoken language and spoken myth. In fact, according to Gebser, whenever one-dimensional magic manifests today, it is usually in the negative and destructive form.

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What is "real" telepathy?

Posted December 15th, 2009 by barbi hammond in response to Red, Amber, Green, Teal, Turquoise . . .

The statement above suggests that telepathy or "real" telepathy does not emerge until Integral or higher, suggesting that a certain bias for the "higher stages" exists at the expense of becoming acquainted with the previous structures of consciousness. Telepathy is actually a lowered-consciousness magical manifestation (beige-magenta-red) which is re-activated with irruption into Integral. However--it is not possible to "irrupt" into integral to activate and harness these latent capacities from previous structures until one becomes conscious to these previous structures and the powers they exert so as to harness these powers in a manner that is effectual and beneficial. Otherwise, they will be released chaotically (which usually means negatively and destructively) without one's conscious awareness. Only by becoming conscious to the previous structures can we become "Integral"--and only by becoming conscious to magical manifestations do they exert a positive influence.

A note about the the various "stages" in Gravesean theory and their correspondences to Gebser's one-dimensional magic and other structures: I would highly recommend reading the link above on Spiral Dynamic FAQ, but I am inclined to think that one-dimensional magic can refer to the first three stages of first tier consciousness known as beige-magenta-red. The problem with developmental theories in general is that they tend to break the structures down into too many different different levels or stages of development to the point of possibly losing sight of the five basic structures of consciousness and how they manifest and exert their influence in consciousness to be of any real value for true integrality. This however is not to say that these individual "stages" or levels do not exist; but knowledge of these stages do not appear in themselves to permit access to integral consciousness beyond a theoretical grasp of the stages. It seems that emphasizing all these different stages has the effect of blinding people from recognizing the basic structures of consciousness and how they manifest which I still maintain is best perceived when broken down into five different structures. Thus, knowledge of these stages can be useful but only so long as we know how to divide them into the five basic structures.

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The mental structure and the magical structure are both externally-related.

Posted December 15th, 2009 by barbi hammond in response to Red, Amber, Green, Teal, Turquoise . . .

Hi, Barbi.

I think you have a good point that we can have Red shadow in any meme. That seems to be the case. Also, yes, more likely that the MOM will do us in sooner than the MGM! :)

The fact still remains that what is likely to do us in globally is our inability to address planetary survival issues meaningfully (as Graves points out) and more significantly, climate change. The Mean Orange Meme (business interests) exerts the greatest influence and power in the world and is predominantly the meme that is opposed to climate change legislation. Even Graves himself points out that the Mean Orange Meme poses the greatest threat to our existential survival on the planetary level, which is the theme of the first two stages of Integral second-tier consciousness.

Ultimately it is the mental-rational structure itself (of which both Green and Orange are a part) that is resistant to change: not "either/or the mean orange or green meme." As such it does little good to point the finger of blame to one or the other "mean meme" or to pit one against the other in a dual opposition since both stages are materially- and spatially-oriented and are concerned first and foremost with "doing and subsistence" issues for the sake of personal or family needs concerning material success and maintaining a lifestyle of consumption and consumerism at the expense of planetary survival.

It seems that the MGM/MOM controversy created by Wilber serves more to distract us from the real issues of planetary scarcity and survival issues of second-tier integral consciousness. It appears to be ultimately divided along ideological lines than on anything else.

Our modern concept of romantic love dates back to the medieval period during the mythical structure (Amber) and speaks predominantly to the heart and soul or psyche. That is the more nostalgic or conventional meaning that is instilled in us from a very early age by convention, tradition, folklore, legends, the media, culture and the like. An indispensable part of both romantic love and familial bonding, however (especially when we think of the mother-infant relationship when the baby is nursing and sexual bonding between men and women) involves the more primitive vital-instinctual-emotive level which does reside in the psyche or soul (Amber) but in the magical structure of beige-magenta-red. Any time that you are engaged in the sexual act, you are engaged in one-dimensional magic.

Yes, I think you're right that people often forget about the postive applications of Red, particularly Green, don't you think, while demonstrating it in an unconscious way?

Yes, I agree. There are positive applications but only if manifested integrally and consciously.. Any other manifestation of magic is likely be a form of deficient magic that is negative and destructive. Magic is "doing without knowing," after all. Magic is blind. It will always manifest chaotically and unpredictably if utilized irresponsibly, blindly, and without consciousness. Just like technology. And when we give power to machines, we give away those magical powers that were once innate in us as humans.

I agree that there are both positive and negative aspects to Red and Green as is the case in every structure or stage. However, I would refrain from associating magic exclusively with Green narcissism. As noted above, Red can exist as a shadow at any stage higher than Red and there is no evidence to suggest that Red is a shadow or a meme that is more prevalent in Green than it is in Orange.

Far more dangerous is activating magic irresponsibly through the use of technology and machines than merely becoming "narcissistic" as in Green. In which case Orange has more to answer to insofar as Red shadows than Green, but ultimately both are guilty. The complimentary structure to the magical structure is the mental-rational structure, after all. Of which both Green and Orange are a part. So it makes little sense to blame Green narcissism when it is the techology of Orange which is ruining the planet. Both magic and the mental structure are externally-related (the former to the natural world, the latter to space) One-dimensional magic actually has a great deal more to do with the reactivating of deficient magic via machines and technology in techocratic society and a fossil-fuel based economy (the mental-rational structure, of which Green is a part--but Orange is too) than with Green narcissim--something that gets lost in these discussions..

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Fact + Fiction = Faction

Posted May 13th, 2009 by Richard Layman

Fact + Fiction = Faction

I think green and mean green are different things to different people.

But first I need to dissociate myself from an over-emphasis on jargon. The effort to squeeze the real world into theoretical "existential taxonomies" like AQAL and Spiral Dynamics can quickly get counter productive for an ordinary working "Joe" like me, especially when multiple systems of conceptual integration are being dynamically shuffled together, such as multiple color schemes that may overlap in some places but not fully register at others. This makes my brain hurt. The growth and elaboration of these theoretical frameworks tends to outpace my ability to "test drive" them in the real world. There may be an advanced group of people who can and must undertake such hyper intellectual engineering for the benefit of all, but for many of us I think it is important to stay in touch with plain english as a reality check and a sort of mental life preserver. So I am leaning toward a broad, common use of the word "green" which combines environmental protection, sustainability and social justice for the purpose of this post, as in the example of "green investments". Am I being too "first tier"?

I would say that the oldest and most common suspicion and rejection of green came from those who percieved a threat to thier economic interests. There are the "owners" who reject any social/environmental accountability in their exploitation of resources and the mill workers who blame the spotted owls for their layoffs. Right wing capitalists have long seen environmental activism as a confiscation of property rights and a slippery slope to socialism.

More recently there has been a more militant environmentalist element which the right characterises as "ecoterrorists." This element is marginal and exaggerated, of course--a straw man. Some of these people may even work for the FBI. If I understand your posts, Barbi, this is more what MGM represents in the integral world. If not, can you give me a few examples?

At the same time we have corporate entities like BP and Monsanto claiming to be green (and even Obama touts "clean coal.") Once corporate secrecy and disinformation schemes start to fail, corporations will adopt more compelling and functional green covers. Thus we will become increasingly surrounded by agencies that appear green on the ouside (to the casual observer) but have mean centers. Is this part of "mean green"?

If fascism (a partnership between industry and the state) continues to grow, we might expect government agencies like the EPA and the deparments of agriculture and interior to become more and more influenced by a mean corporate agenda. How does this fit in the mean green spectrum?

RE: Natasha Todorovic's paper:

www.spiraldynamics.org/documents/MGM_hyp.pdf

I was glad she discussed the discrepancies between a person's self-reporting of attitudes vs third party reports. I don't think self-reporting is worth much. These are just "micro anecdotes". As I posted elsewhere, our beliefs about ourselves are seldom more informed than our beliefs about God. See Harvard's Project Implicit at

implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

RE: Linda Hollier's reference to Myth Busting & Metric Making, Refashioning the Discourse about Development in the Integral Community by Zachary Stein

integrallife.com/learn/deep-end/myth-busting-metric-making

Zachary Stein wrote: Now, the way I see development (i.e. Fischer's Neo-Piagetian perspective) suggests that we roam up and down these levels all the time, depending on context and support, etc. No one is at a level; we inhabit levels only for certain periods of time and in certain company. Moreover, you may be more developed in your reasoning about the quadrants than you are in your reasoning about levels, or more developed in you reasoning about important interpersonal issues then you are in your reasoning about Integral Theory (again, see Stein and Heikkinen, 2008 in JITP). Generally, where you are is not my concern (in part because you are all over the place).

I think this an absolutely crucial, fundamental observation that is often overlooked. The integral (or spiral dynamic, or whaterver) theoretical ediface is a like a complex coordiate space in which consciousness moves from moment to moment like the aurora boreallis. All the axes/gradients are dynamic. One consequence of this reality is that consciousness cannot be tamed, trained, coached, or otherwise intentionally developed nearly as matter-of-factly as many in the "spiritual growth and development" community claim. In some ways developmental capacity or potential in the mental domain may be similar to that in the domain of physical fitness. Certain mental skills and abilities may be extended by training and excercise. But that analogy may also be false in many ways. We lack the means to objectiviely measure much of our brain's enormous variety of continuously fluctuating activity. IMO This is where our smartest people should focus the bulk of their attention.

MGM or not

Utimately, what we do about climate change will probably have less to do with a specific set of facts than on how we merge our "big-picture" (mostly mushy, emotional) views of reality with our various agendas. How much do particular facts matter to each different constitiuency, what kinds of levers and buttons are available to react with, and who in the end is at each set of controls? IMO the public at large now has only one hand left on the national/global steering wheel--lifestyle. The vote "lever" has been disconected. Our choice of employment and how we spend our money are the only pedals the "the people" can reach that are still connected to anything real in our cadillac of state.

Richard.

There is no answer. There is no solution. There is only practice. (Anon.)

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Fact + Fiction = Faction