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The integral map is an empty framework, it is not a political/economic solution to anything!

Posted July 23rd, 2011 by Ben Hopkins

In Reference to:

There is much more to the debt ceiling, private vs. public debt, private workers vs. public workers, state debt vs. national debt, etc... than the whole Democrat vs. Republican thing, or liberal vs. conservative (the foundation of the false left vs. right propaganda paradigm *Obama Deception).

What about the Federal Reserve (private banking family, who has been appointed control of credit for the whole world!) This is not a subject up for debate, polls have consistently sighted the public’s desire (80% +) to audit the Federal Reserve.

What about primary dealers using open market operations to skim yield and fees off of the debt issued by the Treasury? This government debt is purchased by primary dealers (Mega bank affiliates) and the resold to the Federal Reserve for a guaranteed profit to the mega banks. How about the devastating effect on the elderly? Working people now 65+ who have saved their whole lives hoping to receive interest payments on their accumulated cash reserves. Now they are yielding 1.5% in savings accounts, giving them little return for their savings.

This is all theft by the central bankers taking money covertly from the working poor and middle class. Not to mention the decrease in the purchasing power of the US dollar compared to gold, silver, oil, land, food, health care, college tuition, i mean indentured servitude to the banks.

Obama received more money from Wall Street (Goldman, JP Morgan) than any of the other presidential candidates, including McCain, his challenger in 2008. He then continues the bush bailouts, appointing Wall Street heads to all of his important financial cabinet positions (Geithner, Bernanke, Daley, Summers, and passes bogus "financial regulation" that fails to regulate derivates. He also fails to do the most basic, obvious, and sane regulation, by reinstating Glass-Stegal. Sorry Elizabeth Warren, Obama doesn't want you!

Look, I think Jeff has a good heart, but he falls under the shadow of 2nd Tier. The shadow being as Jeff said, “It’s like being a parent looking at all their little children (1st Tier) run around. You don't get mad at them, just try to nudge them... (paraphrase, sorry Jeff). Since he is so integral in his understanding and outlook, he gets lazy. This is very dangerous thinking. Since his cognition is at teal +, that doesn't mean that his political/economical understanding is at that level. And you know economics is a very difficult subject. Ron Paul has some excellent references on his website, and students of integral should read Ron Paul’s essays on lewrockwell.com. In particular the essay, "End the Welfare Warfare State". Those at the integral level should at least present their views as "their views" rather than the right integral view. If supported by fact and debate from others at the integral level who have an opposing view, then so be it. But don't assume that you are right just because you haven't been publicly challenged.

Any integral view is simply a framework... It is not a political solution or Juija board. Use with caution. You may end up agreeing with yourself.... When we flesh out the integral map it becomes a political/economical viewpoint that makes up a larger Holon based on who participated in the creation. If you fill it out by yourself you are simply playing mad libs! If you have managed to stay with me this far, I congratulate you, and welcome your criticisms.

Hip Hopkins

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Generally

Posted July 25th, 2011 by Sebastian Stark

you are right, the integral scene is not addressing these things on the lower right.

But still these are world views that are the products of perspectives, and as we see all around us: everbody knows everything, whatever that might be, and no one does anything about it. What does this leave us with?

Postmodern narcicists are too weak to affect change. Capitalists believe in egoism and cant think systemically, and actually, we dont have any solution for the freemarket vs state control dilemma. A lot of critics dont understand economy. the mainstream is lost in nowhere land.

Purely negative Critics hold the belief that everything can get "allright" in the back of there heads. Is that actually true at all???

As you pointed out, the framework is empty, and its so for a reason.

YOur points about having a look around are very good, there is definitely a lack of that

Andrew Cohen said, responding to a question concerning politcal engagement: first we need to get more people to evolve. After having spent some years in political activity, I think thats right

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Truly

Posted July 25th, 2011 by Ben Hopkins in response to Generally

I realized that the problem with integral is that once you catch on to it, you feel like a genius. You might just be a genius, but probably are not one in all lines. You just have the capacity to relate to other aspects of yourself, and understand other perspectives better. But it seems that all people who are 2nd tier, loosely defined as those who understand basic AQAL, or have a intuition for it, still retain a political or strongly defined UL interior politics. Although you may not be as idealistic about it, the basic conservative (do it yourself, leave me alone) vs liberal (save the earth by taxing everyone) polarity still exists. For example, Jeff Salzman, of the Daily Conformer (I mean evolver) has a definite liberal bias, "obama is my guy".

That is fine,.. I have a definite libertarian bias, Ron Paul is my guy. But we are both at the minimum 2nd tier oriented. So it appears that understanding the framework in some ways just gets you foot in the door. It doesn't immedieatly heal all political divides and provide us with an easy automatic solution to our political/economic problems.

More later, i've got to run. Thanks for your interest in my post, it is very warmly felt in a cold Kosmos!

<If you can hear this, you are the resistance> J. Connor

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Restructuring Socioeconomic Systems in the Lower-Right Quadrant

Posted August 30th, 2011 by Brian McConnell in response to Generally

Your perspective is essentially on target. Within the integral movement however, there are a number of individuals working on prospects of redesigning and implementing more sustainable socioeconomic systems. The greatest challenge in actually doing this arises from the development of a dominant, debt-based schematic over the last four hundred years that's currently implanted itself almost globally. To say that it's primarily, a gross collective ignorance allowing this travesty to continue is an understatement.

My article entitled, "Toward a Sustainable Future" and published in the June edition of Integral Leadership Review affords an overview of the current scenario. I'd also invite those looking for integral others with whom they can dialogue and share ideas to visit, the integral economist.

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Incredulity Arising

Posted July 25th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove

Yup.

So, here's a question: why do we see this and some don't?

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Democratic bias

Posted July 26th, 2011 by Ben Hopkins in response to Incredulity Arising

As I alluded to in my last post. I think that the political becomes deeper and more thoughtful at 2nd tier. There is no correct answer, just the best negotiated deal between integrally minded politicos. An integral solution to a political solution would take multiple integral leaders who favor different AQAL types. There are probably political types as well as personality types to the integral system.

There is no reason to believe that these political types melt away at 2nd tier leaving us with practical easy solutions. Some political problems may need a more state oriented approach, some will need a more personal liberty oriented approach. It may in the future become integral to have a revolution and remake the political system in a way the favors personal liberty, freedoms, with some underlying social protections.

So why do others not see this? Easy, because most of the intellectuals who are attracted to the integral map are coming from Green perspectives and starting to jump into 2nd tier. They were probably already democrats and they have continued by clinging to that 1st tier values group.

Further, KW, often has bragged about Al Gore, and Bill Clinton reading his books, and quoting KW in speeches. Is this because they are really for his ideas, or are they trying to keep these integral leaning minds within the fold of the democratic party. KW when talking about Bush, when he was president, or Karl Rove, often criticized them for having cold blue hearts. This would obviously play to the democratic intellectual base who believe that integral is best represented by the democrat party. KW himself has often criticized the democrats too in his political writings, such as boomeritis, but I think that the democrat base was seen as the best launching pad for the integral revolution.

I think many classic conservative, patriot, types would find integral difficult because of the opennes to new agey spiritualism and multi-culturalism that they find conflicts with their christian amber views. This limits the access of good hearted republicans who see the integral aspect to be a continuation of the bush/clinton/obama New World Order, with global government, institutions, currency, at its heart.

I think that the integral view would best be represented by a coalition of the Ralph Nader and Ron Paul perspectives (progressive libertarianism). People who come together from different political classes to fight for specific freedoms that they both agree on, while agreeing to disagree on other more contentious issues.

More later, thanks for the interest in these issues!!

<If you can hear this, you are the resistance> J. Connor

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Hmmmm....

Posted July 27th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to Democratic bias

Sorry for getting back so late. I've been in several discussions over the last two days around these issues.

What you're pointing to does not correspond to what I'm seeing. And I find that interesting. We both came to the same conclusion from the opposite ends. And, in my mind, this makes it all the more likely to be true.

Which is why I am advocating for a very different kind of "Action Logic" than what has been demonstrated so far. Check out this interview that I listened to today. The link is on this page near the bottom. It is called, "Barrett Brown Interview Recording mp3". Brian McConnell gave us that link to listen to on one of Robb Smith's FB status updates. Check out what the "Strategist", "Alchemist" and "Ironist" each do for a System. When I heard this, I had to rewind and play it 3 more times just to be sure I was hearing it right. I was blown away.

-oOo-

Those who are ready to go beyond Integral need a place to do that in peace so that we can strengthen the better ways of being and modeling asap. There is no time left to merely fart around developing our intellects so that we can collect cognitive merit badges. And if IL is only going to offer "Strategist" level ways of being and modeling while they actually have the resources to do better, then that is just plain sad. If Integral doesn't offer the highest, who will?

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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In Response to Ben (and Jennifer)

Posted September 7th, 2011 by Brian McConnell in response to Democratic bias

I've just reviewed Ben's comments ("Getting the transcend ahead of the include") on an older post at The Daily Evolver ("The U.S. Budget: $1.7 Trillion Worth of Karma") compared to the viewpoint expressed here . . .

Although I think it reasonable to assume that 2nd Tier (integral) development would have matured to the point of at least outlining a framework for an integral politics, apparently that's not a reality. As Jennifer notes however, I too find Barrett Brown's work in 'Late-Stage Leadership' encouraging. Ultimately what we'll need is an Integral Economics (see: Arnsperger's, 'Full-Spectrum Economics') applied in a restructuring of our current (central banking's) monetary system (see: Economic democracy).

Consequently, economic theory dominated by Keynesian and Austrian (e.g. Ron Paul) viewpoints is inadequate to break the duality of Demopublican control reflected in neoliberal/neoconservative ideologies.

To democracy's own demise, I might add.

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That's Why...

Posted September 7th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to In Response to Ben (and Jennifer)

...I'm trying to create the containers where it's safe to see what we see, know what we know, and think what we think.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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State controlled credit

Posted September 8th, 2011 by Ben Hopkins in response to In Response to Ben (and Jennifer)

I like the public banking idea. Banking to be controlled like a utility. Or direct controll of the issuance of debt free currency by congress to fund government or to be lent out at interest to commercial banks, with them paying the US back for the use of the governments (peoples) money.

They interest payments paid back to the government through loans, could then be used to pay basic government functions and eliminate taxes.

Such as described in Ellen Brown's, Web of debt book, and website webofdebt.com

Ron Paul's solution of using gold as a check on the currency or at least making it legal to use gold and silver as money as an alternative, is a start.

I understand the criticism that if money was fully backed by gold, then all of our debts would have to be paid back by gold, and this would create massive deflation, and wipe out many middle class and poor debt holders.

I really like the ideas of freegold, as explained in flowofvalue.com

Having a free floating fiat currency with all the restrictions taken off of gold, (taxes, capital gains, legal tender laws) so that it could operate as an alternative store of value.

The freegold movement argues that we need at least a currency (like the flow of electric current) that we trade for daily purchases; and a seperate independent store of wealth or value (gold). They see the problem with a fiat only system is that we must store our excess wealth in the same currency that is intended to facilitate trade only. This way we are always forced to "invest" our money in 401K's, mutual funds, other paper contract arangements that are hightly risky, or forced to invest in real estate or a business, with no way to simply "save" your money until the right investment comes your way. This would throw back to the Austrian schools criticism of malinvestment. Where we are forced by central planning to invest in something/anything seeking yeild on your money so that you can get a higher return than the inflation rate (positive yield).

I believe that Ron Paul doesn't trust the US government to have the power to print money either, as he sees that it would be used to fund militarism, corprotacracy, etc.

So fundamentally, if we keep a public banking or debt free currrency system, controlled by the US govt instead of by the Central Banksters, we would need transparant controls in place to keep them from just running the same schemes from inside the government rather than from inside the federal reserve.

That's why at this time, I still think Ron Paul has the superior understanding/grasp of the monetary issues, compared to the keynesians. But we need to breakdown the integration of keynes and austrian school.

<If you can hear this, you are the resistance> J. Connor

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Living under the shadows

Posted July 26th, 2011 by Alan Sato

I'm not sure I'm following you.

On one hand you complain that he thinks he has the right view, which you feel needs to be challenged. And on the other hand you complain that he isn't doing enough. Which is it?

I think Jeff was saying that the left and right have to go through the process of fleshing out a middle ground for themselves. I think he implied that he doesn't know what that middle ground actually is. You can't tell the political parties what that ground is. They have to live the journey and get there inch by inch, day by day. A person doesn't become integral or 3rd tier just because he reads about it. He has to live it inch by inch, day by day. Personal evolution is slow, and cultural evolution even slower. They HAVE to go through the process of fleshing it out. Jeff just happens to get multiple orgasms from it.

Personally, I think they are so deeply entrenched in their stances that it will take innovators from the outside who capture the voters' imagination to really pave the way to a middle ground. That and a more comprehensive and constructive approach to economical and moral issues that can unite the conservative and moderate Republicans. There really is a split between the parties. Just watch the congressional hearings on CSPAN. They're like elementary school kids blaming each other for their problems. (I don't see them as my kids, btw. They just shamelessly act that way.)

Unfortunately the best way to change society is with the most subtle, gentle force, incessant and constantly there, just under their radar of realization of that force. Once they become aware, their defensive walls will shut it out. Comprehensive information just has a way of integrating and expanding one's circle of concern little by little until -Wham! A peak experience at the next level is experienced. Eureka! And then wait 5 more years... for that one peak experience to be integrated. There really isn't a known faster way. (well there is, but it's called meditation practice) I'd be interested in a faster way, though.

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not the title but the rest

Posted September 15th, 2011 by Jonathan Ericsson

I agree with most of your post, and Wall St robbery of the middle and lower class really needs to be talked about... a lot more, by everybody. I think it stays in our shadow because it's hard to admit that a crime that major has been ongoing for so long right under everyone's nose. A Marshall McLuhan quote that appears in many documentaries about international banking:

Only puny secrets need protection. Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity.

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Putting up new wall paper in hell

Posted September 16th, 2011 by Ben Hopkins in response to not the title but the rest

Regarding your subject line: not the title but the rest

What I am trying to get at, is that the integral framework provides the best model of laying out the different pieces of samsara, what they are, how they interelate.

I feel that many, (including me) often get caught up in looking at all of the pieces of the puzzle in amazement, but simply laying out the pieces of what is, does not immedieatly lead us back into what should be.

The what should be piece crosses over to the realm of the political/economic quadrant/s.

How should democracy/republic be organized, how should the economy be "managed". And if we agree on those things, who gives "us" the right to micromanage a complex system like the political/economy.

Do we leave it to an "intellectual ellite" or a "philosopher king"?

At this point, we start to merge over to facism.

Too often, intergralists jump to conclusions regarding what should be done, and we think that we "know" what's best for the 1st tier; part of the second tier shadow btw.

Therefore I believe that the integral framework is the best "empty" framework for us to debate, discuss, and analyize the situation as it is. But when deciding how to "fix samsara" (yeah right) the map does NOT provide us with any easy, simple, practical solutions. It becomes easy for each of us to regress to following political heroes. Jeff Salzman, believes in Obama as the man to "save us", I believe that Ron Paul will "save us".

However, if we can be "saved" it will ultimately come from ourselves, not from a unique political actor and one easy solution can not come out of the integral map. If anything the map can only provide a check on our own hubris!!!

<If you can hear this, you are the resistance> J. Connor

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Adding to the Kingdom's Tacky Decor

Posted September 16th, 2011 by Brian McConnell in response to Putting up new wall paper in hell

Just by way of contributing my two cents to this ongoing discussion:

I've just completed a project I've been working on over the last few months that's directly related to the conversation. Here's a link for a newly published Wikipedia page for We Hold These Truths: The Hope of Monetary Reform.

From my perspective, and though only cursory, the political alliances presenting themselves between viable, 'alternative' candidates like Ron Paul, are well worth watching. Nevertheless, the key for me entails articulating an emergent restructuring (primarily) of the lower-right (LR) quadrant.

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i see

Posted September 16th, 2011 by Jonathan Ericsson in response to Putting up new wall paper in hell

Thanks for clearing that up. Those are good points. I love Ron Paul as well (though as a Canadian I like the single payer health system for all its flaws... however, that can be considered secondary to the task of fixing some deeper issues), and the fact that he and Nader seem to agree on some of these basics is really encouraging (this is partly a response to the other comment below). For one thing I think that the evolution of our political/economic system would be well served by experiment. Trying things out on the small scale, say in a town, and having the results available to the public might be able to educate the masses on what works and what's deeply flawed (or outright corrupt) as far as parallel currencies, fractional reserves vs 100% reserves... all kinds of things really. Maybe a pipe dream but I think with this internet age the capacity for groups of people from towns to nations to get an unobstructed and useful civil education and become more usefully democratic is quite huge. It may be that some very creative individuals can be seen as ''intellectually elite'' leaders if they come up with some useful and insightful ideas.. but they will not hold sway over everyone else unless what they say is genuinely compelling for genuinely good reasons (at least in the long run). Obama used to have some genuine change in his speech, imo, and genuine charisma, and lost his mojo when he handed the country to Wall St. Now he's got his tail between his legs and his voice is empty.. he's smart enough to know what he did and couldn't possibly be proud. I'm sorry this reply is maybe not entirely coherent... just some thoughts. Gotta run

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The integral map is an empty framework, it is not a political/economic solution to anything!

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not the title but the rest

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Adding to the Kingdom's Tacky Decor

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i see