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DEVELOPEMENT

Posted January 16th, 2009 by Bill Kilburg

In Reference to:

Piaget, Baldwin, and the Mystery of Development

Ken speaking at the end regarding developement and transformation saying we really have no idea why some people transform and some dont. I could only add that as I learned from Werner Erhards work is that tranformation is a space where one chooses to COME FROM or not.

It is purely a choice one chooses to come from this space. One speaks into existence a life already always transformed. If transformation is a function of developmement that in and of itself is a function of space and time, and is finite and thus limiting and constraning.

Infinity I say is a gift. And from this gifted space one creates a tranformed worldview , or not.

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Development

Posted January 17th, 2009 by jon wolston

OK I'm skeptical. Is there testing on examplars of prodigious transformation? If so, how good are the testing instruments? And if real, don't these early transformations create as many problems as they solve by generating lop-sided individuals without horizontal balance or reasonable psychograms? Remember Ken's quip that Ramana Maharshi would have had trouble going dancing at a country western bar. I can love the mystery, but what does the pudding taste like? I find little comfort in such observations. The dark side of the same news is how rapidly regression in functioning can occur in anybody. A little bump on the head from a falling pillar and Fighting Joe Hooker blew the Battle of Chancellorsville. Suddenly all his commanders hated him, even after his cognitive functioning returned.

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Transformation

Posted January 17th, 2009 by Bill Kilburg in response to Development

Hi Jon, As far as test go I think Ken himself or someone at the Integral Institute could answer that. My only contribution to this conversation on transformation is like I previously stated . Infinity {transformation } is a gift I give to mySelf. A pure creation and contextual background I choose to come from. Its a function of what I say, the stand I take for mySelf. No evidence needed. The evidence itself is brought forth from nothing. If I was looking for the answer, or for evidence to prove my transformatiom I would be back in the realm of the relative, finite would of form. And as Ken has already said, form is here to torture us.

And I totally agree about staying grounded in the finite would of form. Especially if I want to go dancing. Myself being a white guy from Detroit I better be able to dance. I was raised listening to Motown music.lol

The relative world without the awareness of the absolute is hell.

The relative world with the awareness of the absolute is the start of the dance of creativity and freedom.

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translation and transformation

Posted January 17th, 2009 by Jerry Sherwood

Hello Bill, Mark and Jon,

I hope you don’t mind my entering this conversation, but it has touched on matters I have a great deal of interest in and that I feel are very important for us to clearly understand. If what I have to offer is valid then you may find that there really is no conflict regarding what Ken has said about there being no clear understanding of what can bring about transformation and the position of Werner Erhard as summarized by Bill.

As I am sure you are all aware KW has made a distinction between changes in translation and changes in structures of consciousness. For Ken only the developmental changes in structures of consciousness are referred to as transformation.

Translation is primarily characterized or colored by the “content” of consciousness. How we translate can change radically or gradually and follows no sequential growth or development patterns, other than as it may be affected by changes in structures of consciousness. Structures in consciousness provide the scaffolding that supports the content of consciousness. Or you might also say they provide the parameters that define the complexity of forms that the content can take.

While I agree in essence that the term transformation can only properly be applied to the “vertical” changes in structures of consciousness; I do not agree with what I see as an overemphasis in AQAL on transformation. Very real changes can and do occur in translation which have truly transformative effects in how we live in this world.

This brings me back to Erhard’s proposition that “transformation is a space where one chooses to come from or not”. Mark made an important point with the title of his comment, “already, always …” which indicates the essential nature of this “transformative” spacethat Erhard speaks about; it is always, already fully present, whether we realize it or not. As such it is that which is available to us at any and all stages of development and therefore not dependent on development.

It is the temporary experience of the always, already present transcendent “states” of consciousness that are available at any stage that Ken is careful to distinguish from “transformation’. He makes this distinction because it is clear that the “structures” in place in the perceiving consciousness limits how the experience will be translated. However, where Erhard is correct is that once we have realized the ever- present reality we can choose just how much we wish to be informed by and act in accordance with its infinite potential moment by moment. Or, as Bill has stated we determine how much “Infinity” will serve as the “contextual background I choose to come from.”

Still, all of this will occur within the limitations of our stage of development. Furthermore it will also be effective only insofar as the “realization” of the Infinite is able to penetrate and purify the “content” of our consciousness so that we are not habitually dragged back into behavior that is contrary to the “realization” of our infinite potential.

It is my opinion, based on experience, that this is also the key to vertical transformation. The more clarity we bring to our daily experience the better we are able to see the limitations of our current worldview and intelligence itself then responds by opening us up to the discovery of new and expanded possibilities.

At least, that is the way I understand all of this. What do you see?

Jerry

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It is in the clarity of Conscious Awareness that Truth is revealed.

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Transformation

Posted January 17th, 2009 by Bill Kilburg in response to translation and transformation

Very powerfully and clearly stated Jerry.

Kind of gets me why Ken didnt explain to the lady in the video the way you just did.

The only thing I can add that is of any value is once we get clear and are choosing coming from this already always tranformational worldview , language can be used in a very powerfull way. The ordinary way of just commenting on life is replaced with a generative communication that creates the game of transformation. The old paradigm of speaking about existence is replaced with a new paradigm of speaking"into" existence a worldview consistant with this transformational space of Supermind. I appreciate people like yourself, and Mark and for Ken that allow us to share ourself and to remind me when I slip up to get back into the game, and kick some Kosmic ass.lol "my finite Detroit identity"slipped in.

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Kind of gets me

Posted January 18th, 2009 by jon wolston in response to Transformation

This discussion is very useful for me, I think, because it is clarifying how Ken also "kind of gets me" when he makes diplomatic choices, as he does in this week's video with the beaming mom.

Hey, why not? there's nothing wrong with being diplomatic on occasion, as every pediatrician knows when sharing the examination room with a mother aglow with an account of her child's wonderful potential. Why not? Skillful means. Form your therapeutic alliance with the observing proximal ego before beginning any clarifications of defenses, just like Genpo does, or for that matter, any successful Fuller Brush salesperson does. If the salesperson sat down in your living room and said, "This house is a mess!" how long would (s)he last? Or think dentistry.

I've seen Ken take a diplomatic stance in other interviews, such as not challenging a rather loose characterization of the US as an "empire." Unspoken integral critique: sure, that structure-stage of the quadrants is down in the onion somewhere, might even make your eyes burn a tad when you start to slice it, but so are a multitude of other layers of animated divine emergence we ignore at our own peril, just as odiferous, hurting us more in fact with their more powerful injunctions, even though we love them more. E pluribus onion.

So I am realizing part of my shadow wants Ken to be un-diplomatic, to possibly provoke counter-attacks like R. Crumb's Ruff-tuff Cream Puff who Takes No Guff When He Struts His Stuff. (?Detroit identity?) As I continue making love to this shadowy substance (think Spiderman 3) I am wondering is there a Divine Table-Turner imago for all of us in the exemplar of Christ's life, empowered to return to the world, of the Kingdom, by the Kingdom, and for the Kingdom with a sublime, burning clarity about what to do? We mystics still need imagery.

Thank you. Continued on my blog.

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more to come

Posted January 19th, 2009 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Transformation

Good day Bill,

I find what you say about generative communications of interest and would like to delve into it a little deeper with you. However, I am currently working on several projects and my time for writing here is going to be severly limited. I will look to get back to this topic with you towards the first of next week. Meanwhile, if you wish to expand a bit I will be sure to read what you have to say and include comments on that as well.

Thanks for "lighting up" some alternative neurons ....

Later

Jerry--

It is in the clarity of Conscious Awareness that Truth is revealed.

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Generative Comunication

Posted January 19th, 2009 by Bill Kilburg in response to more to come

One of the best examples Jerry I can give you between generative communication , and the everyday ordinary commentary communication is in reporting sports. When we watch a football game the announcer is commenting on the game. The game is happening and the announcer is commenting on the game, for the most part after the play happened.

Generative communcation creates the game. It speaks into existence a game by the declaration of ones word. Like when Kennedy declared we shall have a man on the moon by the end of the decade. He called it forth , and generated that happening with his speaking ,and by the end of the decade the proof showed up. There was no man on the moon when he first languaged that statement. Where as in the football game, the guy dropped the ball and the announcer spoke about it after it happened.The football game for the most part is leading the language of whats being commented on. Where as when one gets in touch with ones supermind you as supermind is leading the language and you can create and generate any game you want to play. First you as supermind speaks it and the physical playground follows. Not a magical worldview may I add .

Plus , when I pick up a dictionary the definition of a word has already been defined to me by Webster. It has an already knowing about it so it is the domain of the conceptual and symbolic You can say the written word is knowing you. In generative communication your creating knowing it. Language exist as a function of the SELF. You as Self is knowing it..You as SELF is bringing it into the space, contextually calling it forth from nothing.

Generative communication creates distinctions . It has a coming newly , brought forthness about it, and is experiencial. And this moment NOW is never going to exist again, it is a distict moment unto itself. That is a distinction that one creates from nothing thus making possible each moment to be experieced freshly newly. Like going on a date , you can compare this person to the last person and never really experience the person your with. Or you can generate for yourself the uniqueness of the person your with and have that person and yourself be great, or not. Besides that person your with is you so why not create that person BEING GREAT. I wish I knew this stuff on some of my pretransformational dates. Both for myself and for the one that was with me.lol

I add that we need both commentary communication { what would this country be without our football}lol

And generative communication where in my experience is the realm of whats possible. And in my experience the more aware I am of both domains of communication my Beingness is able to contribute to the space contextual oneness inhabits. Transcend and include is what maybe Ken Wilber would say.

I owe a big acknowledgement to Laurence Platt who made clearly to me the two types of communication, and Laurences work has been influenced greatly by Werner.

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