Partial perspectives

Posted January 12th, 2011 by Bill Kilburg

In Reference to:

Integral Life Practice: Enough Talk, It's Time to Live!

Regarding true but partial approaches, anybody have some feedback regarding the Course in Miracles. Does Ken have any thoughts on the Course in Miracles.?

Seems new agey to me, but have never really studied it in depth.

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~

Posted January 12th, 2011 by David Marshall

Hi, Bill. He says a thing or two about it in Grace and Grit.

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It works

Posted January 13th, 2011 by peacepilgrim

Hi Bill,

it works.

Gisela

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Course in Miracles

Posted January 13th, 2011 by Kim Lowles

Hi Bill

It is Christianity based but with a twist! Well worth the effort of studying. A cross between Psychotherapy and Christian counselling. I am very slowly working through it. I have to sit with ideas before I can move on with it. Not to be just picked up and read I wouldnt think

Kim

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It Depends...

Posted January 13th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove

on what part of the Mind needs to be worked.

Belief is a very important form of intelligence that we CANNOT live without, no matter how much we may want to or try. All other forms of Knowledge sit on the foundation of Belief. Taking a meta-perspective on this helps me understand it.

If I simply Believe that what the Course (and other forms of Belief Technology) teaches is "True", then I am vulnerable to disillusionment. But if a larger "I" allows the part of my Mind that needs to attach onto such a System have what it needs, but meanwhile "I" watch over it and don't require it to be actually True, then it can be useful and the self-sense is not bound to the Truth of the Teachings and therefore not vulnerable.

My Magical Training, ironically, taught me how to separate these things out.

I don't "Believe" in the Course. I "Believe" that the Mind needs to believe something, however, and I give it what appeals most to it and serves its sense of development. In this way, everyone here is right.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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!

Posted January 13th, 2011 by Scott Marshall in response to It Depends...

Somehow I am brought to thinking about fulcrums. Didn't Ken say something about these?? Its in my distant memory....

This is great insight from your wisdom Jen! I learned from you! about the mind needing to believe! I deprive my mind of beliefs...

Give it what it needs, let it grow!

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Thank you

Posted January 13th, 2011 by Bill Kilburg in response to It Depends...

Well stated Jennifer. That was what was occurring within me but was not able to articulate it like you just did. So much of my training in consciousness has been in the realm on making distinctions, and making oneself aware of direct experience. I guess I believe in direct experience, and in making distinction in domains of knowing.

I always have mentioned my Super Bowl of great thinkers was to have a conversation with Ken Wilber and Werner Erhard in dialogue. Well, well, well I think Miss Grove needs to be added at the table.

Thanks to all of you who gave me feedback regarding the Course in Miracles.

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Yes, and the spiritual side may resemble this.

Posted January 13th, 2011 by Annie in response to It Depends...

I never read the book or took the course (?). I think belief can be similar to open-minded or explorative in the sense that it offers us the opportunity to taste, smell, and experience something that we have no concrete evidence to substantiate it. It evokes creativity and imagination because it defines an area of consciousness that can be explored. Every Tradition has a belief structure that generates original thought, in a sense it generates forms of consciousness. Making sense of the Whole by using different templates. But suppose “belief” became obsolete; it began to limit ones intuition, suppose “belief” itself became obsolete? A belief creates a boundary, but believing implies that receptors; in tune with the structure of that consciousness, can inform the mind in many unimagined ways. Belief still applies, but we are not believing in anything that our mind can identify or label…and that becomes our new structure. Without belief, we have nothing to listen to, like music playing and we cannot dance.

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An inquiry

Posted January 14th, 2011 by Bill Kilburg in response to Yes, and the spiritual side may resemble this.

Hi Annie,

As an inquiry,, the statement by Ramana Maharashi ," if its not present in deep dreamless sleep its not real " The point being nothing is present in deep dreamless sleep. So is" nothing real "a belief or is it a fact.? Or can it be both ?

I know my studies with est ..est was about nothing. And its a given . But we dont know that, and we dont know that we dont know. Our everyday epistomological knowledge is based on something, and thus we study things , images, symbols,and concepts not- no- thing ." language fails me here cause nothing is a concept, but I think you get my point "

The paradox is nothing is given, . So if its all belief , and the universe came out of nothing would the primary belief be a belief in nothing ? And whats the first cause of anything ? Like a tree that falls over we ask what caused the tree to fall over, the wind did, what caused the wind,? solar forces, ? what caused the solar force ? ect. ect. ect. We keep asking the question , And what caused that ? and we get back to nothing, or simple, I dont know what caused the tree to fall over.

I enjoy your intellect and look forward to your point of view on nothing.

I know maybe I should have never retired from trucking . lol

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Ok, i'll bite!

Posted January 14th, 2011 by Annie in response to An inquiry

Hi Bill,

It’s nice to talk to you again! Generally speaking I think you make an excellent point as to the reason we are all here. We are trying to make sense of the Universe and it simply is not enough to play the relative card. It may be a bit presumptuous to say but when Ken stated that there are no objects only perspectives, it changes everything. And it should change the way we pursue Integral and Spirituality for that matter. We seem to be heading in a direction where language is seen as the tool not the reality, in a sense language creates the reality but also when we treat it as a tool, it allows us to release the restrictions, giving us a bit more freedom. I suppose that’s the whole point of perspectivism, we see how the mind works…so we work with it!

I often wonder if there are in fact many ways to construct relative truths, as if they are just platforms that we create to bring us to new heights. The Kosmic address exists as some Absolute but its makeup can take on many forms, so maybe while we just bring our awareness to a new address, we are given new tools for creating new truths. It seems to me, the bulk of that is language.

Do you see the implications for the Spiritual path? We are no longer trying to decipher something that is Absolute, we are using the Absolute to create the Relative. (“using” may be misleading, but I use the word as a “word“)

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Coming from the come from

Posted January 14th, 2011 by Bill Kilburg in response to Ok, i'll bite!

I like that bite. Good stuff Annie.

In zen they would say ...I.am here because I.am here. If there were a reason why I am here the reason becomes Source not I. { using I as I nfinity } I in this epistomolgy is cause.

Yes, I would just say that we are coming from the Absolute[ our original face ] creating our experience of the relative. In fact we are always coming from the come from..we may doubt we are coming from the come from but we are just coming from doubt.,ones come from is doubt, until one becomes aware. When I become aware of the come from I can take resposibility for whatever is arising. The ultimate come from as Absolute zero...or nothingness. using our unique finite self. A finite vehicle expressing itself in service to its true self.. Infinity

Using semantics....I always enjoyed the statement ..".Spirit is nowhere to be found because its everywhere found." Subsistute the word Spirit with I , and you get, I am nowhere to be found because I am everywhere found. With that distinction one become cause in the matter of what I brings into space in time. I is no longer at the effect of time. For I is everywhere , no-where NOW-HERE as a transcendency to time. And coming from this awareness of I one can use belief as a function coming from the Self.. True cause of what I am. Back to source, back to who caused that damn tree to fall over. I did it.. lol

I creates it all, at least I's direct experience of It. Direct experience distinct from the domain of explanation.

And we totally agree on the power of language. So would enjoy Ken and Werner Erhard in an interview together talk about language and how we are constituted in language.

Thank you Annie for your feedback.

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