Please Log in to Vote.

1 out of 1 members found this useful.

who decides ?

Valueing sports and exercise, I have a big listening for nutrition. My body feels better when I eat more of a plant based diet.

Yet, in my own experience I have been around some very empowering people who smoke, drink wine, and they dont have much of an excercise program

My sense of these type of people is they dont identify themself with their body. Their comittment to show up in life being powerfull, and contributive is lived with such a high degree of integrity that symptoms that would stop most of us are recontextualized in an empowering context.

Their stand for vitality has space for all different kinds of foods and drink and who they are being about it is being healthy. So instead of the food defining if they feel good or not, they choose to feel good and feel powerfull and bring that context to the food and drink.

Just wanted to share another possible way of being with food.

Please Log in to Vote.

2 out of 2 members found this useful.

surprising

Bill, agreed - it is surprising how some people seem to be able to "do all of the wrong things" and still engage life with much vitality, pleasure, joy, and creativity in various mixtures. That's an interesting point you raise - many of them may seem to identify less with their body images and maybe bodies. Then there are those who live in this exuberant way and die young. And those who "do everything right" and have a major coronary-feeding artery that for some anomalous quirk passes through a muscle instead of over it, or other compressive reasons, and croak while they are on their piece-of-cake early morning run. So many things can go wrong, and amazing how many things continue to go right despite what we do. It seems to me, as you probably agree, that some of this has to do with choice and some has to do with the ability apparently to accept 'what is' in their condition without heavy judgment or power-diminishing self-critique, as well as other idiosyncrasies of life history, inherited gifts, weaknesses and such. I admire some of this power in a lot of people who are or were ADHD-like and maybe can put on a lot of miles of dissipation with strong voices and energetic presentations, or those who might be diagnosed as Bipolar II with an abundance of upbeat attitude and applied verve. Some of the street people are like this - heavy alcohol and drug abusers for many years, now physically limping along or of diminished cognitive acuity, yet somehow still strong of voice and with continued aspects of sharpness and survival savvy. So much inherent variation in this complex life. And so much choice-bringing variation. Heereshz to life. :~}

 

ambo

Please Log in to Vote.

1 out of 1 members found this useful.

It is just not known

I think food affects us in complex ways and over long periods of time, so identifying what caused this or that is very hard for medical researchers to do. 

Smoking is not as bad as the simplistic "smoking kills" message -- most smokers don't get cancer. Red wine is actually a choice drink for people who low-carb. There are various syndromes that a few researchers think are caused by wheats and glutens which our digestive tract allow to pass into the blood stream where it causes an auto-immune reaction, and auto-immune problems might lead to lots of stuff including multiple sclerosis, alopecia, colitis, etc. Anecdotally a few people claim to have relieved schizophrenia by avoiding wheat. But a big problem is that these auto-immune conditions set in over decades of time so it is really hard to pin it down. 

Plus everybody is different and food affect them differently based on not just their DNA but what sort of environment they grew up in which could cause their DNA to become expressed in different ways. 

Then on top of that there's all the cultural agendas that people load onto food. The other day on the news they said that "wealth is a big factor in obesity", and then showed a chart of the most wealthy countries and how the obesity got higher as they got richer. But they also showed a chart of very poor countries, and you could see that the poor countries got fatter more quickly even though they were far less wealthy. So that's a real head scratcher -- why would poor countries get fatter quicker that wealthy countries if wealth was a big factor in obesity?? And the simple answer is, I guess, that wealth is NOT a big factor. But I'd never have really spotted the second chart or thought about it because I'd heard them say, "wealth is a big factor" so often. We're always being told that, right?

As it happens I'd read about this question in a book, "why if wealth is a big factor, is obesity such a problem in countries that are malnourished?" And the author of that book said, basically, it doesn't make sense. So obesity must be about the kinds of foods people eat, and in particular, the kinds of foods that poor Africans eat. What do they eat? Grains. 

But that one book is questioning 50 years of medical opinion. So it isn't easy. But it did get me wondering. Stuff like, if exercise is always recommended for weight loss, why is it that exercise burns so few calories? I mean, you can calculate it using those calorie counting websites, how many calories a run or hike would burn, and when you look you see it is a really small quantity. You could just leave a bit of food on the plate and have avoided more calories than a mile run. So why is everyone so hot about exercise for weight loss? It makes no sense. But everyone keeps saying you have to exercise.

Notice how many long distance runners are skinny? Now the message we hear is, they're skinny because they run. But in terms of calories and a lot of other issues, it doesn't actually make sense. An alternative theory is that they run because they are skinny. What's happening is that their genes are such that their bodies just don't store energy as fat, they just don't produce the kinds of hormones or whatever that tell the body to store fat -- just like your genes decide how tall you'll likely be, or how big your feet are, your genes also decide where you'll store fat and how much -- so with long distance runners, they have genes that say "we don't store fat" so when these people eat, they can't store it as fat -- their bodies just don't -- so all that energy is just free in their body, and what happens is, their bodies are full of energy and they have to move. So they run and run and run. They run because they are skinny.

I don't know if that theory is true, but just looking around, like you're doing, just looking at people and comparing what you see with your own eyes, to what you've been told, it gets into a real head-scratching sort of thing. These people seem to be doing bad stuff but they seem full of energy. Now it isn't that they're defying their own bodies, I think we've just been told a lot of stuff about health that isn't generally true.

And there's also a lot of health issues that take decades to develop. This is how we can continue to eat the wrong foods whilst being told they are the right foods and when people eventually, 40 years later, get ill, the true cause is so hard to uncover, and people can always say, well, you must have eaten too much red meat or you must have not had enough exercise or drunk too much wine, when actually it is possible that none of those things have anything to do with why someone got multiple sclerosis or heart disease or diabetes. 

Please Log in to Vote.

2 out of 2 members found this useful.

More Clarity

Hi, Bill!

Good for you for pointing this discrepancy out! I think Stef has pointed out, in excellent detail, how the causation doesn't always follow the line we draw for it. Jean Houston is a big woman. So is Oprah - even tho she fights it tooth and nail. Just try and keep up with them. Many, many "powerful" men are BIG guys. And I don't mean Basketball Player BIG. They are not "Outstanding in their field" because they eat right and get plenty of exercise. If we look at the classic book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" I don't think there is anything in there about diet and exercise.

Here's Dale. And lookin' pretty good! I think he's goin' for the fried chicken...

But what I noticed here is this sentence:

"My sense of these type of people is they dont identify themself with their body."

I've come to finally understand what this means in the last year. Being "identified with the body" does not mean they pay attention to it. It kinda means the exact opposite. What we are identified with is not something we have in our attention. Putting it slightly differently, that which is in our attention is by necessity not what we are identified with. People who are identified with their body ARE their body. If you want to know what they want, watch what they grasp with their body. If you want to know how they feel, watch what they express with their body. If someone who is identified with their body wants to lose weight and tries to diet or exercise, they cannot experience the joy and pleasure that good food and exercise brings. They don't like it because their body doesn't like it. They have to go thru a long period of conditioning before the results are drastic enuf to actually feel good to them. It's brutal to get thru this period for people who mostly exist in the "Gross State".

What Shawn Phillips and others are doing is turning the body into an Object in the awareness so that we are no longer identified with our bodies. In this way, we can gain some identity outside of our bodies and, as that identity, give our bodies what they need, but not what they necessarily want because our bodies are not smart enuf to know what they actually need. They think they need sugars, salts and fats and sex all the time. People who are identified with their bodies will be looking for those things all the time and believe that it is their own self who wants those things. They don't know that it is their body who is telling them what to want and need and that they don't actually need those things and neither does their body. Telling them does no good because you are talking to the body. They have no other self outside of the body.

This is the same problem that addicts have. They are their body and their body thinks that it needs thus and so. So they seek thus and so, not understanding that they can develop a self that is outside of their body who can actually care for the body without obeying its wishes and demands.

As soon as we have a self that is NOT the body, "we" can look at the body and say,

"Hey, body. You seem a bit sluggish lately. Methinks I'm giving you too many cheap carbs and caffeine and you're having a hard time managing the energy spikes. And I'm not putting you to bed early enuf. I'm sorry. How about if I shift all that around and then add some exercise and see how you feel?"

Does that make sense?

Autistic people tend to identify with their bodies more than usual. They will often act out their emotions with behaviors instead of words and when distressed they will soothe themselves with physical acts which are not always socially appropriate. Sometimes those acts are minor like putting very cold or hot things against their skin or rocking, sometimes they can be self-harming or harmful to others. I heard of one girl who would eat by setting her chin on the edge of her plate and scooping the food in like putting coal into a furnace. Sometimes she didn't even chew. Just shoveled and swallowed - all the time with a totally glassy, non-coherent look on her face. THIS is being identified with the body.

--

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148