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Applying the Four Quadrants to Community Building

Posted June 4th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in Mindful Community

The above image is of the header of a website I am developing. The idea is to explore community building with a four quadrants framework. The home page brings you to the first of three short essays I wrote on the Good, the True, and the Beautiful as they relate to each other and to community.

I'm currently not promoting the website beyond telling a few friends about it. But I would love to get some feedback from the Integral Life community on these three essays. Any suggestions on how to build out the site in relation to the four quadrants would also be much appreciated. Here's the link: http://neighborsconnect.us

Note: No personal info is required to comment. You can leave it all blank if you so choose, and it will be posted as Anonymous. Trying to make commenting as easy as possible. But I do have an approval setting for comments activated to prevent a truck load of spam accumulating. I'll check the site frequently to approve comments.

Bruce Wilson

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Whoa, Nelly!

Posted June 4th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove

[my 2 cents at first glance]

Major blind-spot here:

"The Good has to do with authenticity, that is, valuing what is genuine, and valuing what brings ultimate meaning to our lives. So in regard to community, the Good presents questions like:

1) “Are our actions, our speech, and interactions with each other fulfilling those values of authenticity and ultimate meaning?”

2) What are the personal, cultural, and social factors in our lives that are inhibiting the realization of these values?

3) How might we state these values concretely in a way they can be acted on in community with one another?

4) What kind of forums, associations, and organizations can we create to facilitate discussion and action on such questions?"

Assuming that you want that community to actually become and remain a community, what are you going to do with people who are "authentically" tyrants?

1) "I don't care what others day/do. I'm only out to satisfy my selfish needs and I'm going to authentically dominate anyone and everyone else in order to fulfill that value and ultimate meaning."

2) "What's inhibiting me from authentically fulfilling my goals is you and everyone else around here who has competing interests and all the rules that support them getting their needs met."

3) "Again. I don't care about others. Here's a statement: Fuck you, Buddy!"

4) "You can create all the forums, associations and organizations you want. My goal is to dominate them and destroy their collective power to inhibit me from fulfilling my authentic needs."

Sound familiar? Make sure you've gathered the abundant data from everyone else who has already tried the same thing first before you try this yourself.

[/my 2 cents at first glance]

I say this not because I want you to fail. I say it because I want you to succeed. Good luck. <3

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Authentically Tyrants

Posted June 4th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in response to Whoa, Nelly!

Thanks Jennifer for your comments.

In regard to your question, "...what are you going to do with people who are authentically tyrants?", I'm curious if you know anyone who considers him/herself as authentically a tyrant?

Bruce

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Yes

Posted June 4th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to Authentically Tyrants

One of the strange emergents from Integral Consciousness is that some of us are able to witness ourselves being whatever we are - including a tyrant. The cognitive line is not the same as the moral line. For some, the twain shall never meet.

However, there have always been Tyrants who develop their craft with attention and intention. Those are the guys who end up conscripting the history books. And possibly determining this very moment how much is in your 401K by engaging in hostile-takeovers.

Regardless, among the many means they will use to fulfill their intentions are charm and deception. They will say things like, "I'm not being mean, this is just the way I am." or "don't take this personally..." or "I love you." or "There is nothing I care more about than the quality of life of the average working man or woman..." etc. They're not usually going to come out and say what they "authentically" are - tho I have witnessed a few people who did that. Truly.

So, yeah. It's a real thing that exists "out there" in the real world.

Of course - and perhaps this is what you're getting at - it also exists inside of me. And this is why I can spot it. And I've already logged hours, weeks and years of witnessing and talking openly about that. I can direct you to the most recent example if you like, but that gets pretty tiresome after a while. Self-awareness is one of my most prominent and well-known characteristics.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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The Authentic Self

Posted June 5th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in response to Yes

Ok. Let's take a look at the tyrant and the altruistic person from the perspective of the four quadrants.

I insert a few things that I associate with the upper left and lower right quadrants. I claimed about the Good that, "The Good has to do with authenticity, that is, valuing what is genuine, and valuing what brings ultimate meaning to our lives."

Words like authentic and genuine are rather slippery concepts, but the main point I want to make is that how one defines oneself, or one's self image, whether as a tyrant or an altruistic person is mainly a dynamic between the ego and persona. It doesn't have much to do with authenticity as I think of authenticity.

Authenticity, to me, has to do with letting go of the self image and coming from a place of non-defined openness. Being present to the infinite possibilities within any given moment.

The other point I would make is that speaking of a tyrant in contrast to speaking of a person who is acting tyrannical, gives away some of our own power and casts the said person in an unchangeable position.

Finally, and briefly as I have to get to my day job, as we move out of shadow and persona into a healthy ego and further on to the transcendence of ego we become more authentic to our true nature, the Self.

Bruce

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AQAL

Posted June 6th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to The Authentic Self

I do not experience certainty when it comes to AQAL. Here's one reason why:

According to this diagram (which seems more correct to me) the self is only the upper Quads. According to your diagram the self is all 4. Which is correct? Yes, it does matter.

The sources are linked from the word, "Here" but the link on that page is broken. It takes you to the journal, but the diagram is no longer on that journal's server. I don't know what that means. My confusion is multiplied.

Here is the map of Beauty/Truth/Goodness as I'm used to thinking of it:

So, does that mean your 4 questions are asked of the whole group? If so, maybe that's where you lost me. They seemed like questions that an individual would answer. If they are asked of a Group, then it might be safe to assume that the Group has already self-selected to gather around common norms/values/meanings. If the individuals have not already self-selected around common norms, then the questions should be asked of individuals to determine which group they should be in, and then those values/etc. can be stated in the LL of the Group holon that is created as a result.

Forcing people to cohere when the individuals that make up that group span much more than 2 levels of developmental values is not going to work unless they are all already enlightened (in a purely Horizontal sense) and are willing and able to stand by and do nothing while their neighbor stones his wife to death for showing her ankles in public. Otherwise they are forced to restrict one another's freedom to decide and act on their values.

This problem was actually one of the very earliest problems that humanity had to solve and it did so by creating taboos. THOU SHALT NOT! That was a deliberate and measured restriction of an individual's freedom to decide and act according to their value/need/desire/meaning/etc. in service of improved survival as a Group. If it is true that we have transcended and included each stage that has come before the one we're at, then there will be a remnant of this practice or value still left. It cannot be completely abolished. Something of it will have to remain. Which parts will remain?

The need to cohere?
The need to restrict freedoms?
Improved survival?

Which parts can be left behind?

Eye for an Eye style punishment?
Shaming?
Exiling?

Consider the brain. It used to be smaller in proportion to the size of the hips. As we evolved, our brains needed to grow, but the size of the hips thru which that head must pass in childbirth could not get any bigger or locomotion would be compromised. What to do? We needed more brain, and it needed to stay contained within the same amount of space. So, the brain wrinkled itself. It divided itself into mountains and valleys which sometimes marked the division of labor.

These things can and prolly should be thot about and decided upon consciously now.

"Authenticity, to me, has to do with letting go of the self image and coming from a place of non-defined openness. Being present to the infinite possibilities within any given moment."

This sounds more like enlightenment in at least a horizontal sense. And again, you have the same problem. Have people who have achieved this already self-selected themselves into this group? If not, then what to do with those who haven't achieved it? Enlightenment is an accident. It cannot be taught or enforced. It happens. And it tends to happen faster and more often when you play on the freeway of Isness. But even then, it may take 20 years. Or more. Or never. Those kinds of communities are already in existence and have been for a long time.

Plus, this doesn't address the issue of values/meaning/etc.

"The other point I would make is that speaking of a tyrant in contrast to speaking of a person who is acting tyrannical, gives away some of our own power and casts the said person in an unchangeable position."

That's nice. Meanwhile, she killed my cat and the only person who is currently suffering the negative consequences for that is me. She doesn't give a shit.

"as we move out of shadow and persona into a healthy ego and further on to the transcendence of ego we become more authentic to our true nature, the Self."

Yes. But which part of the Ego? The Cognitive Line? The Interpersonal Line? The Intra-personal Line? The Moral Line?

Unless you are going to commit to an action plan to deal with situations like that, Psychopaths will be drawn to you and will fuck you up. They love cozy little nooks where there are plenty of resources to acquire and no negative consequences for people who simply club people over the head and take what they want.

What is the plan, Stan?

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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New Discovery...

Posted June 6th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to The Authentic Self

I just discovered this chart on this page here. The source of this chart is a writer who writes for an Anti-Wilberian Integral Website. That is important information. I love the chart because it demonstrates the disparity between the Cognitive Line and the Moral or Interpersonal Line. I'm not clear which is being expressed when Tyranny is involved. It's called The Spectrum of Coercive Power.

I don't think he's correct about the 2nd Tier objects of control. I think "Ideas" is basically the same as Blue/Amber Myths and I don't think "Spiritual ideas/groups" is specific enuf. Here's what I think.

I think the Integral method is going to be an attempt to control intention. There seems to be a pattern of increasing subtlety as they go up. I think that's one of the characteristics of the holon that is paired with complexity. The increase in conscious awareness of complexities will result in an explosion of conscious and often conflicting intentions which would lead to chaos. Or that could just be my experience. But it smells right. It would coincide with what I've observed with the arising of inertia in the Integral Community.

And as far as this guy is concerned, he may have interpreted the resistance to his intention to generate an intention as control over his ideas. That seems to be a common theme for the Wilber-haters. They seem to be in agreement that their ideas are rejected in toto. This is not true, but it feels real to them.

In any event, it is clear that if the Moral Line is still at Red, coercion will be used even if the Cognitive Line is at Teal. And if it is, I'm guessing that it will prolly be a control over intentions.

As far as the Turquoise pathology goes, I can only guess badly. And I'm willing to do that. LOL

Intention is a quality of agency - which would be consistent with the swinging action on the way up the spiral. It may be a control over a quality of communion. Feeling into it, I would guess that it might attempt to control who (Who) or what we consider ourselves "One with". That may seem like spirituality or religion, but it is more than that. It is also marriage, national/international affiliations or associations or simply friendships. Who will we allow ourselves and others to identify with? If you don't think this is a dangerous question, then you're not thinking deeply enuf about it.

As I think about it, I'm seeing that this may appear at first glance to be Green. But if we think of it in terms of the Trans-personal, not just the Personal, then I think there is much more dimension to it. We're not just citizens of the same planet who have the same "rights". We are. Actually. ONE.

What do you think?

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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The Uniquely Crashing Wave

Posted June 6th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in response to The Authentic Self

Jennifer - "According to this diagram (which seems more correct to me) the self is only the upper Quads."

I think the diagram you've pulled in by Mark Edwards illustrates a major difference in the understanding of holons between Wilber and Edwards and more deeply a difference in understanding of consciousness itself. Wilber references Whitehead in describing a rudimentary form or level of consciousness inhering in an atom or molecule. How I understand this is that everything is consciousness expressing itself and consciousness is Self. Or as the Buddhists say, Form is Emptiness. Emptiness is Form. It's nonduality.

That form is the tetra-arises of the four quadrants of consciousness [and perhaps a couple of closets that we have yet to discoverer :-) ]. Now since everything is consciousness, is Self, it really doesn't make much sense to talk about the individual in contrast to the collective or group except from the limited perspective of the small self, ego consciousness, or as I think Freud referred to it as the Id. But limited as it is, Ego or Id is still Self. Using a much used metaphor, the limited ego self is simply a wave that begins and ends on the ocean of the Self.

As waves we all are, we must talk about the individual and the collective or the wave and the sea of waves. When I speak of authenticity, I am referring to the expressing of oneself from the perspective of the wave that is in touch with its wetness and has some intuitive sense of the depth of that wetness which extends to the floor of the ocean. Authenticity is not something to possess or demand that everyone express. It's something that we all might aspire to, that is, the act of keeping in mind that we are all of the same nature regardless of how uniquely we may be splashing down, tyrannically or altruistically. Then fear falls away.

Witness the Arab spring. Democracy is the ideal of freedom taking a political form. But freedom is much deeper. Freedom is the nature of the Self. I may be wrong , but I think and feel that all the thousands of Arabs risking death day after protesting day have woken to some degree to their true nature, freedom. I've heard it in newscast after newscast where protesters are interviewed and claiming, "We are no longer afraid. We are not afraid to die for freedom." They are expressing themselves more authentically than ever before.

The challenge of community is not to determine whether the tyrant is acting from his/her authentic self, but rather how to promote the cultural valuing of authentically expressing oneself to whatever degree one is able at their level of development.

Once more:

Jennifer - "So, does that mean your 4 questions are asked of the whole group? If so, maybe that's where you lost me. They seemed like questions that an individual would answer."

Returning now to the difference between Wilber and Edwards' understanding of holons, Wilber states,

"Among other things, individual holons have 4 quadrants, and the social dimensions of those individual holons unfolds in stages correlative with the other quadrants in that individiual, but collective or social holons do not have 4 quadrants, so they do not necessarily unfold in those types of vertical stages. It is only the confused notion that a collective is a giant organism that makes it appear that groups must go through the same invariant stages that indivdiuals do. The 'I' goes through a relatively fixed series of vertical stages, the 'we' does not." (Integral Spirituality, p.152)

Scott - "we must look at all of the lines of development in order to gather a picture of how an individual interfaces with the collective."

Yes, this is naturally the path of developing community, but my attempt with the three essays on the Good, the True, and the Beautiful is to hopefully inspire some deep thinking about the very core of the four quadrants and the dynamics between them before we consider the individual's development in relation to them or perhaps in concert with such considerations.

Jennifer - "Here is the map of Beauty/Truth/Goodness as I'm used to thinking of it:"

Wilber assigns Beauty to the upper left quadrant, Goodness to the lower left quadrant, and divides Truth between the singular truth (science), upper right quadrant and plural truth (Social), lower right quadrant. (Integral Spirituality, p. 20.)

Jennifer - "So, does that mean your 4 questions are asked of the whole group? If so, maybe that's where you lost me. They seemed like questions that an individual would answer."

The questions are rhetorical and meant to be entertained by whomever wishes to entertain them. There are more than four questions though, so perhaps you didn't make it onto pages 2 and 3 which entertain the dynamics between the three.

Does all of this make things any clearer?

Thank you both for your comments.

Bruce

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Yay!

Posted June 7th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to The Uniquely Crashing Wave

I am totally ready to accept and believe that I do not understand the Quads adequately. However, no that didn't make anything clearer. LOL I'm sorry.

What I can remember hearing is that the maps only refer to the non-absolute. So we already agree on this. Pure Consciousness is part of it only in the sense that it is the stuff that all form is made out of - which is what is mapped. Pure consciousness itself is not "on" the map except for maybe an eyeball inside the UL but not making up the entirety of the UL. Ego, also, is in the UL. Multiple egos are in the LL!!

However, out of what is mapped, the way I interpret your quote from Wilber:

""Among other things, individual holons have 4 quadrants, and the social dimensions of those individual holons unfolds in stages correlative with the other quadrants in that individiual, but collective or social holons do not have 4 quadrants, so they do not necessarily unfold in those types of vertical stages. It is only the confused notion that a collective is a giant organism that makes it appear that groups must go through the same invariant stages that indivdiuals do. The 'I' goes through a relatively fixed series of vertical stages, the 'we' does not." (Integral Spirituality, p.152)"

is that a single holon is aware of both self and others. A Group holon is only aware of others because it has no dominant monad and is not a "self". To say that a Group is aware is saying that the individuals are aware together and they have a strange communion in the LL which is mysterious. KW speaks about it as mysterious, still. Eros seems to hold court there, forever pushing each towards Himself, and Agape is at His side pulling each towards Herself - which leads to the union of all in both a relative and absolute way (Wilber/Combs Lattice). The Quads are a map of what we can be aware of - or - what is arising moment by moment. The lower half of the individual holon consists of the ways that the individual interacts with others. It is how the individual experiences others:

"When I am with my in-laws, I feel nauseous. My Father in law doesn't allow others to speak above a whisper unless he addresses someone first and they are responding directly to him." (I'm continuing with the Tyrannical theme here...) "In this environment, I feel reduced to a slave status - scrounging for scraps and suspicious of others - when I'm around him."

So, if I am at a Family reunion and the Father in law is present, we all regress to a "Self-protective" level of being. If he falls asleep or goes out for a beer, we all breathe a sigh of relief and return to our normal selves for a bit and the group can skip multiple levels. If I have that wrong, then I don't understand it.

Don't worry. I've tried and tried and others have tried and tried to help me. Corey has too. He linked me up to a ton of awesome materials and I still feel lost.

Here's where I'm finding these diagrams. It's a goldmine. But as you've pointed out, it's a mixture and should be considered carefully. If KW says that the diagrams I've put up are completely wrong and cannot be used at all because they are a result of them not understanding what he's saying properly, then I would totally believe that, but I need someone to help me understand it. It's hard for me to imagine that they can't be used at all. Thank you for trying to help.

But you still haven't answered my question. This is not my question.

"The challenge of community is not to determine whether the tyrant is acting from his/her authentic self..."

That isn't even related to my question at all. I've already stated that Tyrants don't usually just come out and declare what they want. They deceive and manipulate. You could literally spend your whole life trying to figure out whether their actions are consistent with their authentic self. When you're dealing with a Tyrant, that is one of the things you have to STOP doing. But this is not the answer either:

"...but rather how to promote the cultural valuing of authentically expressing oneself to whatever degree one is able at their level of development."

So if someone authentically express themself by killing my cat, the aim is to promote the cultural valuing of that expression?

I'm dealing with hard-core exteriors here and your words seem to be avoiding it.

I grok the interior dimension just fine. It's not that I don't. Scott and I have worked on a project that deals with the inter-subjective and it has alot of potential for consciousness studies. It is fascinating territory and as KW says, it is the most neglected and most in need of attention and love and development (hence my signature..). I'm just a wary of people who won't deal with the exteriors at all. I've seen what happens when they are not dealt with quickly and completely both in local and cyber-spaces. It destroys Community and the LL is gutted.

There seems to be a pathology of the Autonomous Level of ego development: to neutralize intention or the will to act. It comes with a Green allergy. Unfortunately, only those who are expressing that level of ego development are neutralized, leaving the tyrant free to act as he/she pleases.

As Robb and Eugene have pointed out to me, there is a whole field of study regarding Action Logics. When exiting Green, one becomes aware of the futility and hypocrisy of hating the haters. Hate cannot be stopped that way. When entering 2nd Tier, we become aware of the importance of hate and it's function as a powerful driver of evolution. So, hate is allowed - theoretically. But we are still often confused by our hate and feel entangled by the energy and regressed backwards into futility. So, it is often Shadowed in the self and therefore becomes a "hated" thing in others. Again. Only this time we call it a "lower level" of development, not just plain evil. And we think that's better.

The freedom to make decisions and take action comes back online again with more power and creativity in the Construct-aware stage. Instead of the Absolute neutralizing decisiveness and action (spiritual bypass), the Absolute informs our action with an equanimity that transcends fear-driven impulses and includes more skill. Until this stage has emerged from within a certain percentage of the individuals in the Group, hate energy drops us down into a non-self-aware and personal attack identity which is then neutralized by the developmental model identity and it can no longer inform us that something needs to change.

The only place that does not need to be changed is the changeless place that is no place. And! The only reason we are here is to change things - and we have to get busy. Both are true. Because form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

This is what I've seen in the territory and I've done my best to compare it to the map as I understand it. I could be wrong. But so far, I can't get anyone to help me understand any better than I do already.

---oOo---

The term "authentic" may be causing alot of problems here. If you're using it in the way Andrew Cohen uses it, then there will be a dissonance. The Integral Community uses that word a bit differently. And I may be using it differently still. We may need to either agree on its meaning or use another word.

If you want to leave this alone, I'll drop it. It's not my project. But please know that I do care and I wish and hope for the best for you and your friends.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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A Four Quadrant Ego

Posted June 7th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in response to Yay!

Jennifer - "If you want to leave this alone, I'll drop it. It's not my project. But please know that I do care and I wish and hope for the best for you and your friends."

On the contrary, I much appreciate the dialogue. But if you have more pressing projects, I understand and won’t tyrannize you if you disengage at any time. And as for my friends that have joined the site, they are not much involved with it yet at this point while I continue to design and redesign it and consider various ways to go forward with it. In the mean time, I have my day job, driving Workman Compensation Clients to their doctor appointments.

Your comments do challenge me to reflect on my own understanding of AQAL. And I do like your focus on the externals. – “I'm dealing with hard-core exteriors here and your words seem to be avoiding it.”

Neighbors Connect is my way of focusing on the externals, but my focus seems more broad than yours. You bring up specific interpersonal interactions, and in the context of this dialogue about authenticity, as an expression of good or evil. With Neighbors Connect (if it ever gets off the ground) I want to create a forum for exploring interpersonal interactions as influenced by the UL and UR, but especially all the interpenetrating systems of the LR quadrant, for example the family, capitalism, cultural phenomena, religious dictates, political systems (the plutocracy we live in) etc. The idea is that without examining our interpersonal interactions in the context of all these LR influences, we will never create sustainable community as a nation, community that is able to effectively address such issues as global climate change, racism, adequate medical care for all, plutocracy, etc.

In this process I expected the meaning of authenticity to be questioned and welcome that, because I think the lack of it and its substitute, thoughtless, unreflective individualism, competition, and ambition are extolled in American culture as values to be cultivated as part of the capitalist work ethic (in reality, slave ethic). And yes, for me authenticity is very much tied to enlightenment. From the perspective of enlightenment, authenticity does not have much to do with declaring one’s intentions to do good or do evil. Such declarations, whether public or private, are the grasping after self definition, the building of a facade to avoid the terrifying admission of no-self. The ego self is a facade. It is inauthentic by its very nature.

Enlightenment is Self realization, realizing one’s authentic Self. For me it comes in fits and starts, through pain and suffering, self reflection, disciplined practices and gradually builds in constancy and depth. The more this realization grows within me the more authentic I am able to be and act in the world.

I’m working constantly on bringing my personal interactions into alignment with the process of self realization. That’s a lot of work. My inner tyrant pops up frequently, especially when I am driving, which as I said, is my day job. So it’s a daily workout.

Jennifer - "Pure consciousness itself is not "on" the map except for maybe an eyeball inside the UL but not making up the entirety of the UL. Ego, also, is in the UL. Multiple egos are in the LL!!"

This is the way I tend to think of UL also. But I think it’s more accurate to think of all four quadrants as tetra-arising occasions of ego construct. The UL is the executive part of the ego, the carrier of intentionality, but intentionality that is shaped by the contents and environments of the three other quadrants.

The UR quadrant is ego’s capacity to distinguish the one from the many, to determine boundaries around a single phenomenon, to observe an “It”. The LR is ego’s capacity to observe relationships among a set of phenomena, a group of “Its”. The LL is the ego’s capacity to evaluate phenomena through the filters of the other three quadrants, and when these resonate with others’ evaluations, the state of “We” is experienced. And all of this is tetra-arising out of Pure Consciousness, and yet it is not separate from Pure Consciousness. Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.

Bruce

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Oooops! Just Saw This!

Posted June 9th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to A Four Quadrant Ego

Sorry, for not responding sooner. I lost count.

Thank you for your openness. I am enjoying the spaciousness you are offering here. Bless you. Great day-job, btw. Traffic not withstanding, I'm sure you are a great blessing to them.

"Neighbors Connect is my way of focusing on the externals, but my focus seems more broad than yours."

Thank you for saying so. This is going to be fun. Not because I like to fight or argue, but because this gives me clear data that I can now decide to act on: asking you to make a bigger space with me within which we can both look at our different perspectives from. Yay! More freedom and more awareness!

"You bring up specific interpersonal interactions, and in the context of this dialogue about authenticity, as an expression of good or evil..."

It may be easy to get the impression that this means that I think in terms of Good vs. Evil. The reality is much larger. I CAN think in terms of Good vs. Evil - when it is appropriate and useful to do so. I don't HAVE TO. And I know the difference between when it is appropriate and when it isn't. But I am not UNABLE to think this way - a disability many Integralists seem to be suffering from. And suffer they do.

I can embody what I call, "authentic" values which developed at lower stages as well as values which developed at higher stages. I can embody neutrality and co-operation and, once in a while I can embody a good fight impulse, all sorts of things. They are all tools in my tool-box and I consider them skills and Intelligences. In this way, it seems to me that I am holding a wider focus than you are.

Pretty inneresting, huh?

This is exactly how difficulties work. And it is truly awesome to have a buddy who is willing to open the hood on the thing and look at it with me while its running.

"And yes, for me authenticity is very much tied to enlightenment. From the perspective of enlightenment, authenticity does not have much to do with declaring one’s intentions to do good or do evil. Such declarations, whether public or private, are the grasping after self definition, the building of a facade to avoid the terrifying admission of no-self. The ego self is a facade. It is inauthentic by its very nature.

Enlightenment is Self realization, realizing one’s authentic Self..."

So, yeah. This is one of the main reasons why we're not connecting. If you're using AC's definition, it might be helpful or useful to just declare that straight away. It is not a universal definition.

"I’m working constantly on bringing my personal interactions into alignment with the process of self realization. That’s a lot of work. My inner tyrant pops up frequently, especially when I am driving, which as I said, is my day job. So it’s a daily workout."

Awesome. Me too. That's a great meeting place.

"This is the way I tend to think of UL also. But I think it’s more accurate to think of all four quadrants as tetra-arising occasions of ego construct. The UL is the executive part of the ego, the carrier of intentionality, but intentionality that is shaped by the contents and environments of the three other quadrants."

I only disagree on one minor point. At least its minor so far. It may end up blowing up later... I don't like the word "Intentional" when referring to the UL. Yes, the "executive" suite is located up in the corner office, but all the other stuff that is in conflict with executive function is actually located there as well. Off-duty personai, phone calls, letters, memos, photos and all sorts of things come into that office that disrupt and interfere with intention. But they're not just coming in from the other Quads. They're actually coming in from inside the UL itself. Those are things that are actually part of the "i" but are not yet seen or known by the conscious part of the "i". In this way, the UL is a mixed "i". At the Stage of development that this particular "i" is at, it will believe that those phone calls, memos, etc are actually coming from outside. It is part of the function of development AS WELL AS enlightenment to recognize and acknowledge that those objects are actually in the UL and are part of the "i".

I suspect that we may be getting closer to a common view, but the map is not yet working for us as a tool to label what we're seeing in the territory in a standardized way.

"The UR quadrant is ego’s capacity to distinguish the one from the many, to determine boundaries around a single phenomenon, to observe an “It”. The LR is ego’s capacity to observe relationships among a set of phenomena, a group of “Its”. The LL is the ego’s capacity to evaluate phenomena through the filters of the other three quadrants, and when these resonate with others’ evaluations, the state of “We” is experienced. And all of this is tetra-arising out of Pure Consciousness, and yet it is not separate from Pure Consciousness."

Yes. I think we are looking at the same territory but giving different labels to things and linking them to different parts of the map. So, I'm guessing that there is a combination of misunderstandings going on and that the remedy would be for the map-maker to come and settle it and 'splain it so that we both understand. I 'spect that this is a common misunderstanding and that this would be instructive for more people than just us two.

I think we're getting closer.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Authentically Inauthentic

Posted June 9th, 2011 by Bruce Wilson in response to Oooops! Just Saw This!

Happy to hear back from you!

"I can embody what I call, "authentic" values which developed at lower stages as well as values which developed at higher stages. I can embody neutrality and co-operation and, once in a while I can embody a good fight impulse, all sorts of things. They are all tools in my tool-box and I consider them skills and Intelligences. In this way, it seems to me that I am holding a wider focus than you are."

No! No! No! No! No! They can't be values and skills and intelligences. You might value your skills and intelligences, but those skills and intelligences are not values. They're just skills and intelligences.

And I'm calling a foul on you for "'authentic' values". And remember, 4 fouls and you are out of the game! (Well, at least in basketball. Or is it 3? Or 5? It's been too long sense I played.)

I'm really not comfortable with "authentic" values. Especially self-declared authentic values. Your values are just values. If someone acts and behaves in a certain way, because they want people to think they hold a certain value such as some cultural or societal norm, then they really don't hold that value. It's a deception. But because of the deception the value itself that they are faking can't have the non-authentic attribute ascribed to it. It's not the value being faked that is inauthentic, but the persons behavior.

We can say that the value that this said faking person holds is the value of acceptance by their peers, of fitting in, of belonging to a group. We can say in fact that it is a very strong value by which they sacrifice the truth of their being in the game.

"So, yeah. This is one of the main reasons why we're not connecting. If you're using AC's definition, it might be helpful or useful to just declare that straight away. It is not a universal definition."

I don't know who AC is. I was just stating how I think of authenticity. And in reflecting on this dialogue, I think I am getting an idea of how you think of authenticity, and that is perhaps as living out one's true human nature, by which I mean the forces that have shaped one's character, whether for the good, the bad, or the ugly.

Perhaps we need to make a distinction between the relative authentic and the absolute authentic, the relative, acting according to one's unique experience in the play of being human, the absolute being in the play of nonduality. (But then we'll have to look at the concept of play, which has the association of inauthentic. )

"Off-duty personai, phone calls, letters, memos, photos and all sorts of things come into that office that disrupt and interfere with intention."

I really enjoyed that description of the UL.

"But they're not just coming in from the other Quads. They're actually coming in from inside the UL itself. Those are things that are actually part of the "i" but are not yet seen or known by the conscious part of the "i". In this way, the UL is a mixed "i". At the Stage of development that this particular "i" is at, it will believe that those phone calls, memos, etc are actually coming from outside. It is part of the function of development AS WELL ASenlightenment to recognize and acknowledge that those objects are actually in the UL and are part of the "i"."

Yes, total agreement here. I think this is the real "hard problem" of consicouness, or maybe more appropriately, the "harder problem" of consciousness. And I am really ignoring that problem with Neighbors Connect for the time being. I am trying to create a space that will attract community, and right now I'm experiencing much more community with you in this dialogue than I am through Neighbors Connect. This is the kind of dialogue I would like to happen there. So feel free to sign up. :-) I don't envision Neighbors Connect as having hard fast neighborhood boundaries. But I am hoping that those kind of definitions would emerge to some degree as people living close to one another join up.

"I suspect that we may be getting closer to a common view, but the map is not yet working for us as a tool to label what we're seeing in the territory in a standardized way."

Yes, and I think this kind of dialogue could be very helpful in creating some language that expresses the map. So I much appreciate your engagement with it.

back to you,

Bruce

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Important Perspective

Posted June 11th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove

I've been watching/listening to alot of Adam Curtis' material lately, and I really picked up on what this woman said in one of this documentaries. Her name is Molly Hollenbach and she was a member of a commune called, "The Family" in the early 70's.

I have experienced in this cyber-community only a fraction of the Bullying that she experienced in her "meat-space", and that gave me enuf information for me to make a decision and take action. Some people don't want to take "corrective action" against Bullies. They will dodge the question by reframing the data to mean something else or by neutralizing this information with opposing information. When people do that, that gives me enuf information for me to make a decision and take action: turn around and walk away.

I am unsure enuf about the Quads to no longer be able to discuss that aspect of your topic with any frame of reference. But I have a frame of reference that does work for me: experience.

Peace and good luck.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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