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Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber - Exploring the Technium: Technology, Evolution, and God (General Discussion)

In Reference to:
Exploring the Technium

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Exploring the Technium: Technology, Evolution, and God
Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber

Written by Corey W. deVos

To download this dialogue, right click here.

Wired magazine’s own “Senior Maverick” talks with Ken Wilber about some of the ideas behind Kevin’s blog The Technium, which explores the various ways humanity defines and redefines itself through the interface of science, technology, culture, and consciousness.  Kevin also shares some of his own thoughts about the role of spirituality in the 21st century, going into considerable depth around his own spiritual awakening several decades ago.

The universe, we are told, is winding down.  Nothing escapes the remorseless grasp of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics—and with each passing moment, our world, our solar system, indeed our entire galaxy slowly approaches its inevitable heat-death. But this is not the full story, for while the universe is winding down, it is also winding up, bringing forth new forms from old, adding new layers of complexity where there was once only an empty vacuum.  It is what Alfred Whitehead called the "creative advance into novelty," referring to a distinct "tilt" of the universe toward more complexity, more significance, and more wholeness.  From atoms, to molecules, to single-cell and multi-cellular organisms, to the reptilian brain, mammalian brain, and the human neocortex—the universe is abound with inexhaustible creativity, pushing deeper and wider towards its own limitless potential.  Entropy and evolution: these two "arrows of time" exert their pull upon everything that ever is, was, and will be—one pulling us up toward the eternal light, the other pulling us down toward the infinite black.

But it is not just physical matter that is evolving!  Alongside the increasing complexification of the material world, evolution brings forth novelty in at least three other dimensions, particularly evident within human evolution:

  • We see the evolution of systems, such as the movement from foraging to horticulture, to agriculture, to industrial, to informational modes of techno-economic production. 
     
  • We see the evolution of cultural worldviews, such as the developmental model offered by Jean Gebser, in which cultures develop through archaic/instinctual, magic/animistic, mythic/traditional, rational/scientific, pluralistic/postmodern, and integral worldviews, each offering radically different ways of interpreting our world and our roles within it. 
     
  • And, perhaps most profoundly, we see the evolution of consciousness, with cognitive faculties developing from Piaget’s pre-operational, to concrete operational, to formal-operational, to Wilber’s suggested “vision-logic” stage—and with values developing from pre-modern, to modern, to post-modern (or pre-rational, rational, and trans-rational) stages, and beyond. 

Taken together, we notice a rich mosaic of evolutionary emergence, in at least four important dimensions: subjective and objective development in both individuals and collectives. This gives rise to Wilber's famous “Four Quadrant” map, one of a handful of basic components that comprise the Integral model. The Integral approach helps to reveal some of the deepest patterns that run through all human knowledge, showing the relationships that exist between physical evolution, systemic evolution, cultural evolution, and conscious evolution.

Whereas some consider consciousness, culture, and technology to be mere epiphenomena of biophysical evolution, the Integral approach highlights many of the fallacies hidden within such reductionistic views.  The Four Quadrants represent four distinct dimensions of the universe, all strongly correlating with each other, but not at all reducible to one another.  Consciousness cannot be simply reduced to the chemical soup between your ears, as scientific materialists might believe.   All truth cannot be reduced to cultural embedment, as post-modernists have claimed.  And all of our behaviors cannot be reduced to techno-economic conditions, as Marxists presume. There are simply more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in any of these partial philosophies—and the Integral approach essentially tries to get all of heaven and all of earth onto the table, without ever confusing a meadow for a cloud, a mountain for a star, or an ocean for a galaxy.

This, in many ways, is what Kevin's Technium truly represents.  As he describes in his blog, Technium is a word he "reluctantly coined to designate the greater sphere of technology—one that goes beyond hardware to include culture, law, social institutions, and intellectual creations of all types. In short, the Technium is anything that springs from the human mind. It includes hard technology, but much else of human creation as well. I see this extended face of technology as a whole system with its own dynamics."  The Technium exists at the interface between science, technology, culture, and consciousness, exploring the various ways humanity has defined and redefined itself through the ages.  Within the Technium, technology is not regarded merely as the lifeless artifacts created by a particular species, but as a living matrix of innovation—the infusion of consciousness into inanimate matter, which in turn shapes our personal and cultural experience of the world. 

Toward the end of the discussion, Kevin shares one of his most powerful experiences. At the age of 27, he slept on the supposed spot where Jesus was crucified, and upon awakening had a powerful spiritual experience.  Many people are aware of the fact that Kevin continues to be a devout Christian, which might defy some expectations of those who otherwise consider him extremely rational—trans-rational even—while pushing the vanguard of digital culture.  In many contemporary thinkers' minds, spirituality is little more than a quaint vestige of antiquity, and once we transition from the mythic/traditionalist stage to the rational/scientific stage, there is no longer any room in the universe for God. 

This, more than anything, has been the rallying call of the "New Atheist" movement of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and (to a lesser degree) Sam Harris.  But it is important to note that it's not spirituality per se that the modern world should jettison, but the magical and mythical interpretations of spirituality that are transcended by the rational or postmodern mind. The present schism between modernity and spirituality does not need to exist, as long as we allow ourselves enough room to re-conceptualize what we mean by the word "spirituality." 

While nobly trying to dislodge humanity from the monolithic tyranny of fundamentalism, many modern and post-modern thinkers have inadvertently thrown the baby out with the bath water.  When Nietzsche accurately exclaimed "God is dead!" he wasn't actually talking about God Him/Herself, but the mythic conception of God, along with all the dogmatism, absolutism, and ethnocentrism that follows.  While the mythic God was dying, the rational God was only just being born.  Possiby stillborn, some might argue, but born nonetheless—with both a pluralistic God and an Integral God close on its heels.

This is one of the most extraordinary insights of recent years: while the universe (and our experience of the universe) is constantly evolving, so is our spirituality.  It is a sad reality that spirituality remains such a confusing and controversial topic. How is it that religion has brought more liberation to more people than any other human endeavor, while simultaneously causing more pain and suffering than anything in human history?  As mentioned, both individuals and cultures develop through increasing waves of subjective and intersubjective complexity, from archaic, to magic, to mythic, to rational, to pluralistic, to integral stages of consciousness and culture, with infinite room at the top for future stages of unfolding.  This is the profound role religion can potentially serve in the 21st century—a sort of "conveyor belt" of consciousness, designed to facilitate growth through each stage of consciousness. 

And this is an absolutely crucial point—you can taste God at any stage in your own psychological development, as these experiences are always available as ever-present states of consciousness.  However, your interpretation of the experience will be largely determined by what stage of consciousness you have achieved.  For example, a mythic/traditional person might interpret a spiritual experience as a revelation from a personal God intended solely for the “chosen people,” a rational/scientific person might interpret reason and mathematics itself as the language of a Deistic God (the “great clockmaker in the sky”), while a pluralistic/postmodern person might interpret his or her experience as emanating from Gaia and felt as a radical interconnectivity with the “Great Web of Life.”  This is demonstrated in the graphic to the right, known as the Wilber/Combs matrix, which plots four different types of commonly-acknowledged spiritual states against seven evolutionary stages of consciousness, yielding at least 28 different kinds of spiritual experience.  No wonder we are so confused!

Furthermore, just as we can look at evolution through three major perspectives (3rd-person physical and techno-economic evolution, 2nd-person cultural evolution, 1st-person conscious evolution), so can we view our relationship with the divine from these same three perspectives, sometimes called the “Three Faces of God”: 

  • We can speak about God from a 3rd-person perspective, including theological or metaphysical descriptions, or just a simple appreciation of the universe as the living body of God. This is often experienced as profound awe at the entire world around us.
     
  • We can speak with God from a 2nd-person perspective, as an authentic "I-Thou" relationship between ourselves and divinity, in which we can commune with God as the ultimate "Thou"—or, as Martin Buber might suggest, as the living hyphen between the I and every Thou you have ever known. This is often experienced as bottomless, rapturous love with the entire world around us.
     
  • We can speak as God from a 1st-person perspective, a direct experience of Spirit in the form of mystical transcendence, personal revelation, or luminous reverie.  This is commonly felt as an experience of the Self beyond the self, or the effortless "I AMness" behind all our thoughts, memories, and experiences. This is often experienced as transcendent, empty bliss as we realize we are the entire world around us.

Approaching spiritual experience in this way does a great deal to help us understand the current state of the world’s ongoing inter-faith dialogue, as we can see that every spiritual tradition intrinsically contains all three of these perspectives, though certain traditions might focus on one more than the others.  For example, the Western theistic traditions tend to emphasize “God in 2nd-person” and are often distrustful of 1st-person experiences of the divine, whereas Eastern traditions like Buddhism tend to point to 1st-person realization as the ultimate means of liberation, while sometimes understating the importance of 2nd-person communion with Spirit.

 

Thanks to the information age, people now have unprecedented access to all the world’s knowledge, wisdom, and culture.  Never before has the world been so small—and yet, considering the absolutely massive amount of data now at our fingertips, the world has also never been so unfathomably huge.  We are drowning in zeros and ones, the digital reflections of our outer and inner worlds flooding our senses faster than any of us can metabolize.  Only a genuinely Integral approach can make sense of this deluge of information, an approach that acknowledges and situates the established methodologies of phenomenology, structuralism, empiricism, hermeneutics, systems theory, etc., without ever confusing the territory of one methodology with the authority of another.  In this sense, both Kevin Kelly and Ken Wilber are truly 21st-century pioneers, both of whom share an irrepressible drive to synthesize and integrate a truly staggering body of knowledge. Their work represents a new way of seeing the world, of relating to the world, and of being in the world.  They strive to identify the very real patterns in our universe, patterns that connect everything to everything else, their efforts helping to clear a path for the future of evolution in this lonely pocket of the universe. 

We hope you enjoy this fascinating dialogue—and be sure to stay tuned to Integral Life for the other installments of this conversation, to be aired in the coming months.

 


 

About Integral Life: Integral Life is your gateway to some of the most cutting-edge conversations taking place in today's world. Featuring hundreds of hours of audio and video conversations with today’s greatest thinkers, leaders, artists, and visionaries, these discussions span a wide range of topics—including spirituality, sexuality, psychology, ecology, art, business, and politics. Through the rich diversity of subject matter runs a single thread: a fierce determination to connect the dots of our fragmented lives and begin to make sense of a world gone slightly mad....

Still a work in progress, with new features being added every week, IntegralLife.com is on its way toward becoming the central hub for the emerging Integral movement.  There are two levels of membership: you can sign up for a free membership, which provides access to a large sample of audio and video clips, as well as most community features—including your own member profile, blog, and many other features still under development.  For a low monthly membership fee you can enjoy hundreds of hours of cutting-edge audio, video, flash presentations, and e-learnings, with new audio dialogues and videos published every week.  Previous guests include: Kevin Kelly, Jim Garrison, Deepak Chopra, Michael Crichton, Rupert Sheldrake, Genpo Roshi, Lama Surya Das, Fr. Thomas Keating, Tony Robbins, Rick Rubin, Saul Williams, and many others.  You are invited to participate in the Integral revolution, where together we can bring a little more wholeness to our world and to ourselves, and where we can all learn to live free and fully human lives.

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Easy to Share

Cory,

Thanks for the tip on how to send the article and interview on.  I had read it when it came in my Integral Naked email and thought about how my son might be interested in this - too bad he isn't a member.  The easy link was really good and made an idea that had flashed through my mind into a reality.  Maybe he'll like it.  Integral theory isn't new to me but finding ways to respectfully introduce others to it isn't always easy.   Thanks for the wonderful summary and for tying it into Kevin Kelly's interview.

Kathryn

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Kevin Kelly on Deep Evolution

Beautiful interview!  And amen to those favorable comments about Corey's intro pieces.  Very well written indeed.  

 

I'd just like to make a semantic connection for IntegralLifers to a recent blog post I created to compliment the Kelly/Wilber piece.

Enjoy!

Kevin Kelly on Deep Evolution

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Fantastic Work

Hi!, Very interest angle, we were talking about the same thing at work and found your site very stimulating. So felt compelled to com-ment a appreciative thank you for all your effort. Please keep up the fantastic work your doing!

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Bottom-up and top-down and spirituality/ecology/politics

I was struck by Kevin Kelly's use of democracy as an example of a bottom up system. I want to suggest a more robust model that both clarifies and challenges aspects of his points.

Bottom up is the individual organisms and species living according to their local rules. The top down to the ecological conditions. Bottom-up is always subject to top-down conditions because we always in SOME ecological space. Cells live within an organism. An organism lives within an ecological system. There is always and exisiting world with current conditions that we must adapt ourselves to. However, the nature of that top-down ecology is critical.

The primeval forest.

I suggest that the paragon of bottom up system is a primeval ecological system such as a forest. The rules of the system are essentially physics, chemistry, and biology, which are invariably just. Each of the top-down constraints (you risk being eaten if you approach the watering hole..etc.) are determined in each moment by the behavior of each part of the system. There is no centralized top-down actor.

We might say that the top-down structures in this system are involuted in each moment based on how they have evolved. If the elements that make up a top down ecological structure die off or change their behavior, that top-down structure will immediately dis-integrate. The integrated parts that constitute its nature/top-down power have changed, and its loss of integrity means a corresponding lack of top-down power. It may dis-integrate into nothingness, like a tornado that disperses into the winds, or it might re-integrate into a new form that exerts even greater top-down control/constraints, based on the systemic effects.

The effect of bottom up action in this basic system is to both 1) adapt to the existing/developing top down ecology, and 2) to change that ecology.  Once a top down ecology is in place, the individual organism (species, symbiotic system) must adapt itself to the ecology it inherits. This is similar to animals that inherit a mamallian skeleton. The descendents of mammals must adapt the existing skeleton to evolve. They cannot abandon the skeleton and start fresh. They must work within the existing top-down structure that they have inherited.

A second near-ideal example of bottom up organization is a mammalian group, which exists within a bottom up ecological system, while adding conditions of inter-species trust. Whereas deception and cooperation create merely momentary effects in non-mammalian species, the greater social memory of mammals has them take on a lasting effects.   (The distinction between reptilian and mammalian memory is used as an example not a rule here...) Deception becomes punishable in a new way by a group that remembers and punishes those who deceive. Likewise, cooperation can be rewarded. This creates a new layer of top-down structure/constraints that shift the nature of evolution.

Next, we might look at a human tribe, which adds language, rationality, and wealth/technology to the system. Here, the patterns of deception and cooperation can be codified into rules/taboos and shared narratively, creating new levels of abstract top-down structures. The narrative can outlast and transcend the actions of the actors and exert top down influence through adapting the abstract rules to novel situations. In this sense, arbitrary rules can be introduced at a whole new level, creating a new type of top-down structure.

A Free Market

The paragon of a bottom-up system in modern human relationships is a market, which formalizes rules against force and fraud into laws. By creating formal rules that all participants are obligated to obey at threat of punishment from a central authority, it creates a symmetrical bottom-up system whose top down structures (other than force/fraud laws) are involuted in each moment according to how they evolved.

The traders or trading organizations that are currently dominant (creating top-down conditions) in a market are a function of their trading power. If they lose their trading power, they lose their top-down power. IBM lost its market dominance because of bottom-up technological/economic evolution, etc.). The lack formal top-down structure creates a context in which the market continually and automatically adjusts itself to the ongoing ever-changing needs of participants, including the dominant players and the structures their dominance creates.

Far less bottom-up than a market is a Democracy, which adds formal and arbitrary/asymmetric rules/laws to a market. By creating laws that favor one group or business practice over another, it creates an ongoing legal narrative that can again become arbitrary. Whereas a person/group can only become and maintain dominance in a free-market system through leveraging their existing trade relationships, a Democracy allows persons/groups to dominate by asymmetrically leveraging the threat/use of force by the legal system. This asymmetry creates a new class of bureaucrats that become the narrators of the top-down rules by which the system will evolve.

Because of the arbitrary nature of Democratic laws, and the lack of understanding of the systems the bureaucrats are attempting to control, the laws tend to create unintended consequences. The actors in the market, which operates by principles distinctly different than the Democratic process, leverage and abuse the laws to their advantage, through lobbying, loopholes, and bribes. This creates extremely negative effects, which the bureaucrats create additional laws to attempt to remedy (or to reward lobbying efforts).

Historically in Democracies, this process leads to increasing arbitrary power being usurped by the bureaucracy, increasing and aggregating its top-down power.  The more arbitrary top-down power, the less bottom-up freedom. This process is often referred to as "The Road To Serfdom" Eventually, the bureaucracy collapses in on itself through its own weight (see 20th century socialism). When it fails, it creates a vacuum typically filled by a dictatorship and kleptocracy.

So, I both take issue with K. Kelly's use of Democracy as a bottom-up system, and appreciate the overall thrust of his ideas. May this description further the conversation.

--

Mark Michael Lewis - The Thrive Coach -

Know Your Purpose. Build True Wealth. Love the Journey. -

http://GameOfThriving.com -

http://OptimalHumanValues.com

 

 

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Wow

Wow.  I have to be honest and tell you that 90% of what I just read was way over my head, haha.  It is a very interesting read though.  I have always viewed the complexities of our universe and the very life around us as proof of God.  When you break down even what it takes for the human body to function as it does it is hard to believe that it was not designed in that specific way.  There are so many unknowns out there in the universe.  We are realizing new and exciting things everyday, whether it is through technology or exploration.  It makes me wonder if there is a stopping point.  Whether there will come a time when we simply cannot move forward because there is either nothing else to learn or explore, or to do so would infringe on the knowledge of God.  In any case, it is very humbling to think of such lofty things, and to know (at least in my own belief) that such a creator loves me is simply astonishing.

Carly S.

Director,

Air Bear

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great information

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