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Goldhagen Revisited

Posted December 23rd, 2011 by David Marshall
In Reference to:
The Source of Genocide

Ken, Corey, thank you for this great talk and discussion. I would love to hear more discussions like this, more analyses of real-world issues through an integral lens.

But I am wondering about something--Ken seems to ignore one of Goldhagen's main points, and it may be important. Goldhagen says that while these LL cultural beliefs are a foundational part of genocide, the root cause or precipitating factor is UL greed for power and riches:

Even though eliminationism may be grounded in widespread beliefs among groups about the pernicious nature of other people, such hatreds or prejudices are not what unleash eliminationist assaults. Eliminationist assaults are not spontaneous popular outbursts. Like other major state policies requiring large institutional mobilization and regional or nationwide coordination, eliminationism is initiated by one political leader or a small group of leaders, who at a specific moment make a discrete decision to expel, kill, or otherwise eliminate the targeted people. . . .

So why did they decide to do it? Even the most monstrous leaders have also been pragmatic and purposeful politicians. All sought power and all made every effort to keep it. Even when political leaders are--like their followers, who willingly implement their policies--animated by hatred, even when they dehumanize the targeted people, they are still politicians, which means they are still interested in power. They will pursue eliminationist policies only if they believe these policies will succeed at enhancing their own power or furthering cherished goals--that is, only if they believe the benefits to themselves will outweigh the costs. And, more often than not, from Indonesia to Ethiopia to Guatemala to Iraq to Sudan, that is exactly what eliminationist policies have done. This explains why rationally calculating political leaders use such policies so often. [1]

So, according to Goldhagen, while the LL ethnocentric projections are an essential ingredient they don't actually cause genocide; the LL ethnocentric projections alone aren't so deadly. Rather, the root cause of genocide is UL egocentric power drives among leaders. It may or may not be true, but this seems to be the conclusion of his study. It's also the conclusion of the Rwandan Minister of Justice, Tharcisse Karugarama, whom he quotes. Goldhagen's prescription is thus to create disincentives for these leaders, create deterrents aimed at the leaders' personal prospects in life. This wouldn't cure racism or LL projections, but it would, according to Goldhagen, stop or curtail genocide.

To know whether this were really true I think we would have to get into the details of these cases, but I thought it was worth bringing up.

 

 

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UL egocentric

Posted December 23rd, 2011 by Annie

Hi David,

It seems to me that if we ask the question; whom does genocide serve, or who really benefits from eliminating a group of people? Hatred is personal, and although they would like you to believe it is a case of mutual consent for this hatred, groups are adhering to individuals in power, without discrimination. There is no dominant monad in a group, there is a level of discourse, a level of discourse carries the individuality of the one in power. The race performing the genocide will not benefit from the elimination of its opposing force...it is the one in power who will benefit.

Does it not make sense to claim that we are structurally responding according to a 4 quadrant perspective, if we choose to absolutize any one quadrant, we may give to "power" what belongs to US, or discover what it is, we too are striving for. Taking back our own autonomy, we do not behave as a mob, that veil has been lifted and we can no longer get caught in anomyity.

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Thanks David

Posted December 23rd, 2011 by Stanley

Thank you for taking the time to read the report and share an extremely important point with us. One of the very few important differences of opinion I have with Ken is that, in my opinion, he places so much emphasis on the importance of developmental levels that he has a huge blind spot to what I see as the fact that the line between good and evil will always cut down the middle of every person’s heart, no matter how much cognitive learning he holds in his brain. I agree that evil is fueled by greed for power and riches and that the way to stop much of the evil in the world is to have and maintain strong disincentives and deterrents.

In my opinion we see the same kind of forces at work here in our town square as those in the world at large. We have a few people who, due to their greed to try to inflate their shaky egos, compulsively try to belittle others. These abusers have some degree of cognitive understanding of integral concepts but are unlikely to stop short of the existence of strong disincentives and deterrents. Many relatively innocent people here seem to have a blind spot to this and try to pretend that there is no problem. So we lose way too many good members due to unchallenged abuse. A person pretending to be in denial would disagree with me no doubt.

I think that we will not be able to address real world problems like genocide until we are able to address our own, hopefully less deadly, problems here.

Anyway, thanks again. Good looking.

--

No cyber-stalking please. http://integrallife.com/member/stanley/blog/cyber-stalking

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culturopathy

Posted December 23rd, 2011 by Layman Pascal

Heartlessness is not normal.  It neither rational nor beneficial to individuals.  Of course we must include a study of "incentives" in our analysis of these scenes of Great Evil -- but we must not avoid the glaring fact of pathology.  Cultural disease, pandemic emotional disease in human populations, is an irrational, self-destructive social contagion which has a parasitical relationship to personal motivation.  Schemers are no more free from the nihilistic elements of their ethos than are the less sophisticated conformists & barbarians.

The archetypal site of eliminationism was Nazi Germany.  It was not a situation in which a handful of self-serving immoralists persuaded the masses toward the efficient but evil removal of a particular foreign race while they were busy positioning themselves profitably.  Widespread culturopathy was self-attacking every aspect of German society.  This is not peculiar.  It serves Nature well for sick things to try to eliminate themselves.  A series of "eliminations" (Jews. Slavs. Modern art. Free press. Advanced science. True history.  Et al.) and treacherous power-grabs occurred superficially -- all the while the cumulative, demonstrative outcome (the implicit goal) was the destruction of all vital forces in Germany.  Eventually they sent all their best young people to die in foolish crusades, provokes the entire world to attack them, and then their "political leaders" mostly committed suicide.  This is the endgame of fascism... for which "centralizing control & resources in the own hands" is merely an expedient means.  

Rational theorists overestimate the significance of rational motivation.  

The quandrants, all together, represent a holon.  They are not separate.  The UL cannot "take advantage" of the LL and LR any more sensibly than the brain can "cleverly" steal resources from the kidneys and lungs.  This is a symptom of illness in the body.  

Normal inter-ethnic antagonism & normal self-serving game play by rational individuals does not amount to a source of "horror".  It only characterizes the styles under which culturopathy exhibits itself.

 

 Layman Pascal

 

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