An Involutionary-Evolutionary Wilber-Combs Lattice

Hi Bodhi,

Yes, I think what you say basically reflects the Wilber-Combs Lattice now and how a person generally moves through those states with state training.

However, we can experience the subtle and the causal in the waking state (gross), right? But we can't experience the gross in the dream state, and we can't experience the gross or the subtle in deep, dreamless sleep. That's kind of what I had in mind. It's just for fun, though; I'm not suggesting that this is the way it should be, just making an observation.

Best,

David

Corey, very interesting ideas!

The 4-Q stack is really cool! I hadn't thought of that one. I think that works pretty nicely, though I can see what you mean by fractalizing when we bring in lines.  :) Maybe a 3D, 4-Q stack, with self-related streams on one side of the cube and other lines on another. 

It would then be kind of cool to see the same inside/outside motiff go around the quadrants. In the LR, systems and members on the outside, exchanged signifiers and artifacts on the inside; in the LL worldviews on one side, shared signifieds on the inside. Is that right? Something like autopoietic systems on the interior in the UR?

Okay, with regard to states and subtle energies, states involve and subtle energies emerge--thank you; that's one thing I hadn't understood. I had figured that if subtle energies emerged as Figure 10 shows then states would emerge with them. 

What I kind of had in mind with the scheme I laid out above was in case Hypothesis #4 turns out to be true and subtle energies are created in potentia during involution. Here is an excerpt from Hypothesis #4 for people who aren't familiar with it:

Hypothesis #4 introduces the possibility that the higher forms of consciousness and energy (i.e., higher than the gross-family realm) are not tied to complexifications of gross form ontologically but rather as vehicles of the expression of subtler forms and energies in that gross realm itself. In other words, it is not that higher consciousness and energies are bound to the complexities of gross form out of ontological necessity, but that they need a correspondingly complex form of gross matter in order to express or manifest themselves in and through the material realm. . . .

 Hypothesis #4, then, involves the suggestion that a subtle consciousness, supported by a very real but subtle mass-energy, does not itself depend for its essential existence on the gross realm, although it does require a specific degree of complexification of gross matter-energy in order to manifest in the gross realm. If hypothesis #4 is true, then we would have warrant to say that this is why these subtler dimensions, although created and existing in potentia during involution, cannot actually manifest themselves until evolution in the gross realm reaches a required degree of complexification. Increasingly complex vehicles are required for increasingly higher realms; when these higher realms manifest, they are not apart from the complexification of form, but shine through them and by virtue of them: again, even with hypothesis #4, we would say that the higher realms are not actually above matter, but within matter. The difference with hypothesis #4 is that it adds: the higher realms, when they manifest, manifest within matter, but in themselves, they can exist without gross-family matter. [1]

So when you say states involve, or, say, the causal state specifically involves, does that represent the interior going all the way down? And how would the causal state be said to exist then without the supporting causal energy? Would it be contained within the gross mass-energy sort of like each chakra contains each state and each energy family? Kind of like a minor, early chakra?

That's very interesting to suggest that the subtle energies represent some sort of interface between involution and evolution. I think that's what Aurobindo must have had in mind with the psychic being, which, in Michael Murphy's words, he considered to be "an aspect of the Divine," and it also seems to be what Almaas has in mind with his idea of the Evolutionary Force, also Andrew Cohen and the evolutionary impulse.

That's a hard sell for a lot of people, but I kind of like it.  :)