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love and nothing
Posted May 20th, 2009 by Dee Black
In Reference to:
The Difference Between Soul and Spirit
it's the soul that loves .. without the soul there is no love .. just nothing at all
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Proof?
Posted May 21st, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to [Comment Deleted]I'm not saying Love doesn't exist but I am saying that it is a nice, pithy very Human emotion that has no proved existence beyond the chemical make up of a human thought. Esoterica has this problem. Can't prove or disprove it. Does an animal feel love? Prove it. Does a rock? Prove it. Are things intermingled with Love beyond the perception of the viewer and feeler? Prove it. Because religious doctrine or dogma of any kind states that it does exist beyond the human mind does not make it so. Again, I am not saying that it isn't thusly as you stated, I just want to see substantiation. The human mind or rather the human ego cannot stand the thought of it's own demise yet it can never recollect an existence prior to birth. Chemical creations of euphoric emotion help to propagate the species and hope that they exist beyond those uses is just seemingly another clever chemical creation that doesn't exist beyond the creator/perceiver. At least not in a convincing and substantive way. If requires faith and hope. Are those reality beyond their ability to instill healing in the perceiver's body or just chemical wishes of great beyond dreams? Ultimately I do not think science will ever find out. It's one of those things that nobody gets to hear the punchline until you are dead. Death is birth's reward...
Be well,
Erik
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on the possibilty of recall. . .
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Charles Bowling in response to Proof?
Happy Friday Erik,
>>The human mind or rather the human ego cannot stand the thought of its own demise yet it can never recollect an existence prior to birth.<<
Perhaps it's true as you suggest that the human ego can never recollect an existence prior to birth; but to conflate the human ego with the human mind is a needlessly limiting notion. The mind whose chief feature can be defined as rationality, is also endowed with the pre-rational as well as the trans-rational. I usually think of the pre-rational as instinctual, and the trans-rational as intuitive. And if we can accept that the trans-rational or intuitive aspect of the mind is capable of interacting with the timeless then i think we need to be careful about whether or not it has capacity to recollect existence prior to birth. This 'existence' if that's the right word, it seems to me, could be divided into two main categories: what could be called disembodiment (a realm of pure spirit) or previous embodiment -typically in human form.
It happens there is a wide body of evidence that suggests past-life recall is not only possible but may be widespread.
As you may or may not suspect i have a personal interest in this matter; and it causes me to speak up in defense of this possibility.
Warmly,
Charles
41N58'02" 88W18'28"
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Well!
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to Proof?So good to meet you, Charles!
I find your input to be of utmost value. I would appreciate it, if it is at all convenient to you, sir, if you could provide what you would consider to be links to substantial studies and information corraborating your claims. I would love to read them and really let them purvey my psyche before I let them illicit a tangible and reasonable response to this topic. Most kind of you to correct me in my gross generality. However, an effective tool to ferret out just the response that you have provided. Antagonism can be a positive tool. You are not being used, however. I truly value your opinions and findings in this matter. Thank you.
Be well,
Erik
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No fear, here...
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to Well!Hello, Anne -
Thank you for your candor. I have no fear of reality of any kind. Not since being a soldier. Fear died as well as the needless clinging to the concept of life. It is suffering that is intolerable. Not mine. Others. I seek only to alleviate it. I seek only the gentlest and most authentically sincere intervention so as to be more felt than heard. This is the reasoning behind my query. I have no hidden agenda of discrediting or mocking or slanting another in the slightest. Just an ever-expanding and ongoing journey into the realm of knowing that I don't know. So, turn that frown upside down and know this: I am here to learn and grow like everybody else. I am a bit blunt at times and for that I apologize. But this is an Integral Site, yes? Even bluntness, antagonistic or not, is partially correct. I just choose to be honest about who I am and for that I will never apologize for how can I be but what I am? So I guess that makes my original apology partial as well. This is authenticity, yes? I can only learn in the best way I know how. Less important than the actual information sought is how it is gleaned. So long as I am embuing my queries with integrity and honesty, I am in the clear.
Thank you for hearing me out on this matter,
Erik
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It would be nothing less...
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to No fear, here......than a complete and total honor to join you my dear lady. I accept your invitation with humility and graciousness and on that grounded foundation alone let us together build our relationship with a continued frankness and open candor and of course, tolerant embracing.
yours immeasurably,
Erik
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a personal approach. . .
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Charles Bowling in response to Well!
Hi Erik,
This is not a new subject for me; in fact i was one of three panelists that, along with a moderator, made up a TV presentation on reincarnation. The other two were an agnostic on the subject, and the other a PhD from California who represented a rather orthodox Hindu viewpoint. Mine was more personal and direct.
But i'm not here selling anything; which is to say i feel no obligation to offer proofs on the subject; but if you are really sincerely interested in the subject matter, you might simply Google "past life recall" and you'll soon find yourself on the verge of diving into a wealth of material as i've previously suggested.
But as to more a personal approach, if you will, allow me the following story. Some decades back i was living in a modest house in Chicago. And in some mysterious way, i can't remember if it was in a dream or some other method, it came to me that the Mormons, or as they are more formally called The Church of Latter Day Saints, were connected with something that might prove to be of importance to me. This was a rather slender clue, but nonetheless in a matter of days two Mormon missionaries knocked at my door. Contrary to what they were likely to meet on such occasions, i asked them in. After the briefest of introductions i asked them the following question, based on the input i had previously received. "Do you folks have some sort of affidavit where people are attesting to something?" "Why yes, was their response." And they produced copy of the book of Mormon. And opening it to its beginning pages, they soon pointed out a paragraph or two on an affidavit from the earliest days in Mormon history. I don't know what you're aware of this period, but Joseph Smith founder of the Mormons, claimed that he'd found golden plates on which were inscribed some markings that were foreign to him, that later in some state of altered consciousness (he claimed aided by Angels) turned out to be a language that's when translated became what is now known as the book of Mormon.
The affidavit in question was from a group of men, mostly farmer folk, acquainted with Joseph Smith, and the golden plates in question. They attested to the fact that being good men and true, that they had 'heft' the plates in their hands, finding them to be real.
It was my felt intuition at the time, and continues to this day, that i (in a previous existence) was one of the signers of that affidavit. Furthermore it seems very likely to me, that i allowed myself to be uprooted from New York, and followed Joseph Smith to here in Illinois where i currently reside, and where i assisted in founding the town of Navhoo. There was considerable resistance to the presence of Joseph Smith & Co in this area. So much so that a sort of riot ensued. There was violence. Joseph Smith was murdered. As young person in this lifetime, i remember very well watching the film that purported to show scenes that included his demise. For reasons that were unclear to me at the time, watching this film had a very profound effect on me. I cried for nearly 3 days.
And then too in this lifetime, i spent a considerable amount of time intrigued by the possibility of more than one wife. Alas this never transpired, in part i suspect because in order for such a threesome to really be successful, the two women would need to love each other as much, as each did the lone male. Needless to say this is a lot to ask.
All that aside however, the most important lesson that i took from what i consider to be this recall, is the downside of being a follower. Following Smith and later Brigham Young led to great suffering. As you may or may not know the government of the United States actually sent an army to Utah to deal with the Mormons by force.
This insight has served me very well. Mostly because if one gives up on being a follower, the only alternative is to be a leader in one's own life. When it seems wise to synthesize this approach in axiom form, i say, "Truth cannot be borrowed."
Warmly,
Charles
41N58'02" 88W18'28"
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Thank You!
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to Well!Wonderful information and advice, Charles!
Fortunately you have pointed me in the right direction. Unfortunately, I have already been through a lot of the material you recommended.
Now, it is my turn to share with you a story and quite possibly the largest driving force to my inquiry in this matter. I am a hobby recording artist amongst other hobbies. I have been composing and recording and mixing my own material for almost a decade. As a result, I have become quite adept with most things audio and very proficient in audio software and sequencers.
I will jump to the chase. I had been recording for some time and would notice every now and then that I was picking up some kind of interference on my recorded tracks. It was staticky and in the background. But it was there and it was not removable and often resulted in the rerecording of the track. This was of course, quite annoying and time consuming. It bothered me so much that I began to save some of these staticky tracks and had a friend come over to listen to see if there was something wrong with my software. He said that there was definitely nothing wrong with my software and have you checked your mikes and leads? We did that and they all checked out. Then he said let's set up and take a recording as if you are going to lay down a track right now. I said fine. Lucky for me the static showed up on that very recording. 4 minutes of this static! So what we did then was, instead of enhancing the musical instrument portion of the recording, we started to fade it back further into the sonic background so as to bring out this staticky noise. Almost immediately we noticed that it had a pattern of speech. It sounded like an AM station out of tune. We enhanced it and dropped the pitch down as well as slowed the tempo and we now heard the phrase, "how long you got?" very clearly as well as some other phrases. The phrases all seemed to be questions or blatant statements directed to no one in particular but also cancelled out the notion that I was recording a broadcast from elsewhere. Again, I kept these enhanced recordings and burned them onto a disc and played them for a friend who is into paranormal stuff. Right away he tells me, oh! That's an EVP capture! I say an EV what? He says an Electronic Voice Phenomenon Capture. Voices of the dead....
I have tons of these captures. Some talk to me directly. Some have even called my name. Most have been taken within my own house.
My question to you, Charles is this: What is this phenomenon? Is it existence prior or post corporeal life? Both? Can you explain this phenomenon en quadraticum? Does Integral have a place for this? Where? Multiple questions, I guess. Lots and lots of unanswered questions.
Can you now understand why I was initially cautious in my query? This stuff is nuts and could have me written off as a whacko and yet, there it is. It exists. But that is not the issue. The issue is what is it that is existing? Can you help me with this, Charles?
Be well,
Erik
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an indirect responce. . .
Posted May 22nd, 2009 by Charles Bowling in response to Thank You!
Hi Erik,
I cannot speak directly to your question, as the phenomenon you report has hitherto been unknown to me. However, i have been witness to some strange phenomena in my lifetime, and i cannot dismiss its possibility out of hand.
But what i can address is the idea that witnessing some 'paranormal phenomena' is a signal that a loss of sanity is at stake. As this is a question i had to answer for myself in the course of coming to grips with strange phenomena. My answer to it is very simple. If, as a result of witnessing this phenomenon or some other untoward incident, is it still possible for you or me to be nice and considerate of others, our sanity both collective and individual is not at stake. So my tendency would be to rest easy on this account.
There is the notion that if you set enough monkeys in front of enough word- processor keyboards and allow them to bang away at heart's content that it would be theoretically possible to produce something akin to a sonnet of Shakespeare. This seems to me to be highly unlikely. But to the possibility of a transfer of information from the dead, or more precise the recently departed, to the living remains a much more open question. I have personally witnessed several occasions where such phenomena was by far the most likely explanation. In each case however i would add this simple test used in possible verification; was the information useful or helpful.
And from that point of view, the source of the information is less important to me than is its cogency; frankly i welcome whatever assistance comes my way with a sense of gratitude; especially when considering the sum total of the received help that has brought me to this excellent bit of cyberspace and to this poignant, if unusual, cyber conversation.
Warmly,
Charles
41N58'02" 88W18'28"
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an addemdum
Posted May 24th, 2009 by Charles Bowling in response to [Comment Deleted]
Hi Anne,
Thanks for sharing your story; it's been my experience that many folks have a story within, stuff that they are reluctant to share, mostly because it tends to put them outside the pale or beyond the conventional wisdom.
But when their story includes what i have described as help it takes on a significance that overrides their customary inhibitions; but importantly, and here's the key point, that help has a sense of direction. It points us inward, at once relaxing and stimulating us, sort of like sunshine in spring having its effect on a bud, encouraging it as it were, to unfold, and eventually blossom.
Human development is a common theme here in this bit of cyberspace, what with states and stages etc.; and i have no essential argument with this theory. However when i am relating to others especially those not familiar with this theory my preference is to use the word unfoldment. I take it to be a more gentle term, something not to be rushed, a sort of user-friendly process; where we line up with our fate, and begin to fill the promise of our Dharma.
This is a very high value for me; and i'm not even sure what's in second place. And finally i'll just add one last image about this help business, trusting that it's not redundant or too simplistic. It's sort of like learning to ride a bicycle, the steadying support of training wheels or the hand of a parent or friend or sibling, is very valuable; but this is true only up to the point where we come to establish our own rightful balance. Obviously this is at once a very freeing and yet poignant moment. We can always be grateful for this help, and the empowerment it opens up to us. Who knows if at some point in the future when a kind word we offer, or some story we share, will prove to be that final push that helps launch another being on their own unique path.
Warmly,
Charles
41N58'02" 88W18'28"
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musing on your latest. . .
Posted May 24th, 2009 by Charles Bowling in response to [Comment Deleted]
Hi Anne,
I am very much taken with the image in your analogy, of looking deeply into the newborn face; for me it conjures up unbridled motiveless innocence, and with it the possibility of seeing things as they are in their suchness.
>>If someone would really hear me and listen I would tell them how much God aches for Love, there is nothing He would not do for you to know this.<<
I have reread the above quote several times; part of it of course is a first-person view, and another part attributable to a second person view. What do you suppose the result would be, if two rewrites of it were attempted; one entirely in the first person, and the other entirely in second person?
(Although to be fair-minded about this question, my own preference is to avoid speaking of g-o-d, in either first or second person in favor of the non-personal third person or 'it' view; substituting instead Aurobindo's usage, The Divine.)
Warmly,
Charles
41N58'02" 88W18'28"
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nothing bursts into love
Posted May 21st, 2009 by Dee Black
emptiness intuits something beautiful and explodes into overbrimming love
how the heck did that intuition get in there ?
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d r o p p i n g
Posted May 21st, 2009 by Dee Black
to drop into a soul is to drop into love
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motown music
Posted May 21st, 2009 by Bill KilburgI get my soul listening to some old motown music. for real...
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Posted May 21st, 2009 by admin