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Darth Vader Move? I don't think so!

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Ev Miles

I have seen some intimations in the integral community that good and evil goes all the way up and all the way down. The Evil all the way up is referred to by Ken as the Darth Vader Move.

Darth's only "move" is that he can wield advanced technology competently and manipulate the "force" at will. Let's assume that the Force is the Tao. That he manipulates the force to act out on lower developmental impulses is the classic evil genius character which is an invention of story telling originating in Descarte's Evil Demon - hollywood's George Lucas to be more exact in this instance.

He's even kind of S&M sexy and fashion forward!

Can you think of an actual example of a Darth Vader at the different levels throughout history? I can think of none. Where are the Evil geniuses? Remember that Darth's only reason for his actions are the acquisition of pure power (because he is pissed off) while at the same time expertly and competently manipulating technology and subtle energy to that aim. How could he be so high cognitively and so low morally? How can he skip around his own development so carefree and clueless?

All dictators and terrorists that I can think of had a philosophy that they believed in - a bit too strongly. They did not skip around their own development. Darth has no personal philosophy that I can find, he's just pissed off and wants to rule. All real historical "evil geniuses" seem rather average in intelligence and certainly not techno-savy. Spiritual masters? Hell no! They certainly have not been sexy and fashion forward either!

The odds of being at Red morally and Violet cognitively is extremely unlikely (yet theoretically possible) and the Darth Vader Move analogy is cute but almost entirely useless. A real Integral Evil Genius would be marginalized and dealt with almost instantly with Teal - Turquoise interconnectivity technology. Once you make the momentous leap to second tier you become painfully aware of all the lower levels in yourself and others. This does not inspire you to destroy those parts of yourself, just the opposite.

If the true, good and beautiful had an opposite, then where are they? Wheres the evidence? where's the anti -Wilber? They are not behaviors or personalities, they are poetic descriptions of domains - I, We and It.

I think Ken just offers up this perspective to disarm the greens that get all upset about the elitist overtones of Integral. It's a disclaimer.

Please tell me your thoughts on this not so serious concept.

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Shadow

Posted June 16th, 2011 by stefano

"The odds of being at Red morally and Violet cognitively is extremely unlikely"

In a way, that's maybe why it does happen. A person devotes themselves to a higher self, and the higher they rise they more out of touch they might become with their lower self. It gets harder to imagine one has any destructive tendencies left.

Wilber has mentioned that many spiritual teachers have become undone by issues at a lower level. If we are centred on green, we still have some purple, red, amber, orange intelligences in us, because we passed through them. And to engage with the world sometimes we need to use a little red. So if the red is well integrated, it can be used consciously. But if the spiritual adept has tended to rise by repressing their red, and shoved it into the shadows, then that red can manifest without the knowledge of the higher self. That's my vague understanding of it.

So that's a vertical problem. There may also be a horizontal problem in that the person is say, activating not a healthy version of green but an unhealthy version, which might be closed and fixated.

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Pesos

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Ev Miles in response to Shadow

Your talking about spiritual teachers that disown lower shadow selves, voices or impulses and the examples are usually Green level states (non dual) and Red shadows (egocentric impulses). Even more rare is Turquoise stage and red shadow and exponentially more unlikely would be third tier stage and red shadow impulse. As Wilber points out you only get so many pesos to get to enlightenment. It's hard to imagine a sentient being cemented so far down while simultaneously reaching so far up.

So, yes many recent and current spiritual teachers may be highly developed horizontally in states but not so vertically. I'm totally in agreement with that, but none of them were evil geniuses (high IQ) with access to destructive technology and a desire to rule the world. So maybe we should call that the Adi Da move?

The only historical teacher to fit the integral framework in any convincing way would be Aurobindo. Most examples were no higher than Green stage wise.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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Evil

Posted June 16th, 2011 by stefano in response to Pesos

Ev wrote:

I have seen some intimations in the integral community that good and evil goes all the way up and all the way down. The Evil all the way up is referred to by Ken as the Darth Vader Move.

Actually, could you find where it came up? I can think of a post by John Forman,

Developmental Aspects to Sin and Grace

Is that the one or was it somewhere else? I'm wondering what it was and what was meant by "evil".

Then maybe we can see whether that does fit Ken's persos spent on the way up description.

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Source of silly idea

Posted June 17th, 2011 by Ev Miles in response to Evil

I was probably emotionally mostly re-acting to this post - http://integrallife.com/member/stanley/blog/integral-does-not-equal-good and a smattering of audio I have heard. I think it is very tricky to judge goodness based on aesthetical behavior and surface features.

It got me thinking about the Darth Vader Move a little bit. My integral is a little rusty as I took about 6 month break from studying it - wanted to ease back in with a silly post.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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Subtle

Posted June 20th, 2011 by stefano in response to Source of silly idea

Ev wrote:

Oh, that's cool. I often find that I can read a book and recite its points, but not understand them in a way I can apply them. A fun way to test myself is to ask questions in odd ways that bypass the book answers, forcing me to see if I can actually make an answer myself. So the sillier the question, the better :-)

I definitely agree it is very tricky to judge others' goodness. I remember one teacher said that as we grow, we still have problems, but the problems become more subtle. So perhaps at higher altitudes, the Darth Vader move is sill possible, but it is just done far more subtly. Note in the Star Wars prequels that the Sith Lord Emperor Palpatine was able to mingle with the most advanced Jedi Knights and none of them felt his darkness.

palpatine

He seems like a nice old man but he has that darkness which is so subtle he can use it to control the whole show.

I was stood behind the actor one day in the supermarket as he chatted to the sales girl and I was thinking, "watch out! he's the Sith Lord!!!"

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Pesos - which video?

Posted July 21st, 2011 by David Roel in response to Pesos

Hey do you know which video Ken says the so many pesos to get to enlightenment bit?

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Where are they?

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Ev Miles

Where are the Turquoise evil bastards I ask you? Would they not at least have a website? They would of shown up by now! They would have conventions and seminars. Jeff Meyerhoff? hardly on the level of Lord Vader.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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Darth Cheney!

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to Where are they?

Or at least Karl Rove. I can't recall off the top of my head where I saw it, but Wilber has said several times that he thought Rove was displaying Integral level cognition in service of blue/orange purposes.

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not evil, just conservative

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Ev Miles in response to Darth Cheney!

Carl Rove and Dick Chenney are conservatives, not evil geniuses. To be integral would be to honor and respect the profound truths of the conservative perspective, not to demonize them and over state their influence by comparing them to Darth Vader. Dick would only point his deathstar at terrorists - oooh, how evil!

I'm often struck how deep the divide between liberals and conservatives is and how many "integrals" still despise the conservative reality as if it is still totally wrong in their minds. It is not possible for them to be totally wrong, it is partial. I would site Wilber's respect for Rand and objecvtivisms still enduring truths.

I think to be Teal in service to Orange is more likely than being Violet in service to Red, which is what an integral evil genius would have to be. My whole silly point is that you have to quantify the vertical and horizontal stretch to achieve integral evilness and I do not think it is even possible in any real sense.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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LOL...

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to not evil, just conservative

I wasn't trying to say that Cheney and Rove were evil, just using Rove as an example of the kind of uneven line development that you're kind of talking about here. Rove was a genius at manipulating the media and the various conservative constituencies. If someone was at Integral levels in all lines all the time, than no, they wouldn't be evil. I think the Darth Vader turn refers to the idea of someone at high cognitive/spiritual levels but low moral level, or someone who has gained 2nd-3rd tier capacities, but for whatever reason contracts back to a previous level.

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Understood

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Ev Miles in response to LOL...

I think Darth Cheney is mean and only deepens the divide that results in stagnation and that divide is far worse than anything Chenney did. I don't think he is bad guy, hes just woefully behind the times with his worldview.

For fun, I'm actually looking for Evil Geniuses in history - if they do not exist in history, they certainly would not at 2nd or 3rd in the future.

Yes, the Darth Vader Move is shorthand for high cognitive or spiritual and low moral. My inquiry is - is that not exponentially unlikely as you enter 2nd tier and then even more so at 3rd tier? Pretty much impossible at 3rd I would think?

One definition of the DVM is deep states at Green and low morals and that is the classic Boomeritis teacher move. But that is really no more than Boomers being disappointed that they are not enlightened already - damn it!

The other is that Teal (NOT Turquoise) would use the map to have an Orange advantage - the Carl Rove Move. And frankly Ken giving Roves people a 1 hour overview of Integral may make Wilber feel important but it hardly means Rove has any cognition, let alone Turquoise. I know people that have studied Wilber for a 2 decades and have not moved much out of Green. I see no signs that Rove used that in the elections. He just knew he could get the base all riled up, hardly an enlightened realization.

I love the DMV shorthand, but i have seen it used as a critique in this form - "that just because you are integral does not mean you are better, why don't you help some starving people instead of reading Wilber" and I'm saying for all practical purposes I think we are more good, more true and more beautiful. I do not think we should shy away from that reality just because some people are hyper sensitive to ranking and think theoretical work is useless in the real world. We have evidence, we can prove it. You have to do so with skillful means and a sense of humor and compassion.

I feel and cognize that the best thing I can be doing for the world is becoming more integral! I feel we go to far the other way with the it's just Integral, it's optional, it's not better disclaimers.

We're entering into the basic moral intuition territory with 'how to act in the world'. I'm still trying to get a good understanding of that with Core Integral 2.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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Center of Gravity vis-a-vis uneven line development

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to Understood

One of the things that interests me about this discussion is the idea of Center of Gravity and uneven line development more generally. For instance, I can say that I have many lines still in the 1st Tier even if I have a couple maybe into Teal. Just because I can cognize some of this Integral stuff doesn't mean my CG is at Teal or Turquoise. It's an area of research currently what lines need to be developed in what order to induce level transformation. What development is necessary but not sufficient for what?

Also, even if cognitively or spiritually someone is way up there in 3rd tier the fact is the economic system they live in is still probably Orange/green. I imagine someone like that is going to have a profound experience everytime they get in a car or go to the supermarket or go to work and participate in the global economic system, much of which is profoundly unjust. And what does that make their CG if their UL Quadrant is mostly 3rd Tier while their LR Quadrant is stuck in a 1st Tier way of life? Or what about the Hindu and Buddhist masters going back 1000s of years? For all their UL evolution they still often sat at the top and gained the benefits of an Amber caste/feudal system?

p.s. I like your inquiry into the moral intuition territory and hope you share what you learn as you go through Core 2.

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yes

Posted June 17th, 2011 by Annie in response to Center of Gravity vis-a-vis uneven line development

it bothers me as well. I can't seem to make sense of it.

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Lower right and stuff

Posted June 17th, 2011 by Ev Miles in response to Center of Gravity vis-a-vis uneven line development

I think we have to account for the tier phenomenon more carefully. Tiers appear to be momentous leaps in consciousness and we almost have to recalibrate our treatment for each tier. I mean, my going from orange to green was nowhere near as radical and trippy as going from green to teal. I'm also concerned with the lumping of Teal and Turquoise together. To me they are very different. We treat each level on tier one with such care, but we just say second tier as if it is one level. I guess it's still pretty fuzzy.

Yes, I think about systems allot too and how they can trap people into a lower potential - all up and down the spiral. But that would be on the leading edge tip of any emergent and so you will always have pioneers (with arrows in their backs) taking the brunt of that. The thing about the upper left is that you can leap ahead and go deep internally without anyone really knowing it, which is interesting.

But in general Integrals seem a little bored with the righthand side and I see them all as equally as interesting. I see that people pay LITTLE attention to their own system builds that they and only they can create in their personal lives and they just completely ignore the lower right and they suffer so. I sure did when I was green.

Ev Miles :: Buckminster Darwin :: Tumblr

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Where are they?

Posted June 16th, 2011 by Stanley in response to Where are they?

Look clearly into your own heart. Perhaps you can find them at least in potential form right there?

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Darth Vader Move? I don't think so!

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It may be in a book too -can't remember

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not evil, just conservative

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