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3rd Tier Response

Posted September 14th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

If you want to know what a 3rd tier behaivor looks like read this story from the Desert Fathers.

Once a brother committed a sin in Scetis, and the elders assembled and sent for Abba Moses. He, however, did not want to go. Then the priest sent a message to him, saying: Come, everybody is waiting for you. So he finally got up to go. And he took a worn-out basket with holes, filled it with sand, and carried it along.

The people who came to meet him said: What is this Father? Then the old man said: My sins are running out behind me, yet I do not see them. And today I have come to judge the sins of someone else. When they heard this, they said nothing to the brother, and pardoned him.

The "sin" the brother committed must have been pretty awful for Abba Moses the Black had been a brigand, thief and murderer and the brother's sin divided the community so much they couldn't resolve the issue themselves. They had to call Abba Moses in for a proper judgment. Abba Moses' response to the situation disarms everyone.

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maintaining equanimity

Posted September 14th, 2011 by Annie

Sounds to me like you missed the mark here (pun intended...aka sinned). Our compassion can be upheld for the person while maintaining right action for the crime. I don't claim to have superior development but I know that a failure to take a decisive stand will lead to a distortion of the truth. Morals and ethics do not change at any level to the detriment of another, they change to produce a greater good...preserving fundamental rights and responsibilities but generating a sacred ground for something new that is emerging. In other words; transcend and include. Maintaining the old but substantiating the new.

I imagine that sometimes, when it appears as heresy or hypocrisy it is because we don't have the knowledge of the environment in which it operates. I don't believe that anything that is destroyed and gives birth to a greater capacity to Love, will harm humanity. Taking no pleasure in that which must be condemned, maintains the equanimity of love.

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Abba Moses

Posted September 15th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

Abba Moses does just the opposite of what most of us would do. He lets the situation interpret him, instead of him interpreting the situation; in contrast to our hyper-individualistic perspective that assumes we are or ought to be in charge of our destiny and life's situations. As a result, Abba Moses' higher perspective is contageous. The other elders catch it and something almost unheard of happens. The situation changes and everyone in the situation changes. The best way to approach this story is to become Abba Moses. Contemplate the story for a few years. If you're lucky, the story will end up interpreting you.

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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I don't think so but offer a solution to my own enjoyment

Posted September 15th, 2011 by John Michael Davis

I deeply am humbled by such a grace to be shared a deeply awakened story and wish no ill will in broadcasting my opinion. I am actually sorry that I disagree with you Greg.

However I feel that this isn't even a 2nd Tier Response.

I feel it is a High end 1st Tier response and also so is the moral. Judge not lest ye be judged.

ok if the crime had been a light crime, i may have let it go, however

this story pretends to without directly owning up to it say that the punishment for Murder is forgiveness for the sake of my own arbitrary sinfulness.

to me it seems a very relativistic message... and a story lacking way to much facts. I think the priest needs to be tried for thievery and murder and wonder what granted him such pardon? who? and Why?

I think a 3rd tier approach would have been more like this.

He doesn't want to go so what he does is... he slips in the back and tells the sinful man that 100 miles south he could easily start his own ministry and warrant his own forgiveness or face the consequence of his actions by rule of the mob, that either choice would be equally worthy of a life. and after the sinner leaves town the town carries out its anger on the murderous thieving priest. for they knew that such activities could not be condoned in a good society.. on his death sentence the priest says i knew these sins would catch up to me for my final arbitration day and am happy that I could have been of service in the interim twilight of my days and wish that all might take heed this warning and make no mistake as have I a greater plan.. just then some strange shifting seemilnly supernatual event happens and he is rescued out of the hands of certain death by the sinner who he instructed to flee by methods of obscure motorized travel.. it so happens that dealing with motorized electricity was this sinners true crime.

Thanks,

John

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Hard Sayings

Posted September 15th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

It is interesting that those things in the Bible which obviously should be taken allegorically are too often taken literally by some believers and non-believers, such as the creation story and God's anthropormorphism. Whereas those hard things that refer to our behavior are easily dismissed or overlooked or explained away or watered down to the point of irrelevance. Those instructions that are meant literally come from the highest possible tier and will change our perspective when our behavior conforms to them. One such instruction is: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." Luke 6:37.

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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Clear

Posted September 15th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

The instructions are starkly clear...

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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The Field...

Posted September 15th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove

...of Possibility is what is being generated and evoked. It is not anchored in time. It is not about anyone in particular - in other words it is not personal. This is not about what has happened or who will win or lose. This is about what possibilities are waiting to rain down upon us from the Field which God has seeded and made available to us thru the example of His Son.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Will

Posted September 19th, 2011 by Annie in response to The Field...

Hey Jennifer,

It's really interesting that you bring this up here. There are many other posts all pointing to this same insight--and yet at first glance this one appears as a bit more concrete than the other more obvious speculations. Here we are talking about making decisive stands on real-life situations using the wisdom of the desert mothers and fathers, and you now mention the 'field of possibilities", in the face of a direct confrontation. I love the way you think, but it may not be obvious to everyone...at first glance it was not obvious to me :-).

We have never called this "reason" and the rational mind has no idea how to use it, and so when we address the sages wisdom we automatically treat it as contrary to the intelligence of today. Calling this a "field of possibilities" implies that humanity evokes creativity to manifest it, but we also know that there is creative evil or unjustness besides. What characterizes these possibilities as derived from Spirit or God's own son?

The first important framing is that of the "field", I like to call it the space or autonomy and Integral is really good at describing the ways in which objects move within. Each identity has a pattern and when we recognize these patterns we get closer and closer to identify as "possibility" or "space" or "autonomy". We also learn to cherish and embrace all that moves within us, and so "possibility" must find harmony within itself. The disposition and the preference for the sages wisdom comes with the understanding that ALL is love and ALL is forgiven, and we really can't do that until we are ALL. So when you mention that it is not personal...it is not personal as an identity, because we are made up of the "many". Creativity belongs also to the many, and that which is created is only done so in union with all that exists. There is something to be said about the senses, the ability to feel ones way into the Kosmos, and this I think rationalizes and makes concrete that which is transrational....especially when we confuse our body with that of the "many". When we make personal, all that we perceive, forgetting the many, we err.

If our bodies are in fact a single object, our minds and our limited hearts are also single. What is the mind to do with this recognition and how is it that we can individualize? The first thing that comes to mind is that of the senses, much of which you described in another thread, but those senses have a transcended quality and we must not confuse them with our physical form. Movement seems to fit well, since we move according to that which is not instructed by thought but a harmony within the body. It is easy to imagine when we consider what Ken said many years ago regarding the dominant monad and how a billion cells can move within a body by willing it so.

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I'll Do My Best

Posted September 24th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to Will

I won't be able to do justice to what you've brought in here. I need to protect my own sanity and developing skills by limiting how much time and energy I spend on this site.

Your inquiries are mostly rational ones, and while there is nothing wrong with rational inquiry, it will not result in knowledge about what I'm pointing to.

The potential for confusion when dealing with The Field of Possibilities is definitely there. I've experienced some confusion myself. For instance, after spending much time feeling into it sometime this last week, I lost track of time - more than I usually do! I had no idea what day it was. Nor did I care. I was mesmerized by the connecting of the past with the future and meeting in the present and fixated on strengthening those connections. I literally felt all time swirling around me and not particularly identified with any one specific time. I can feel space/time as an Object in my Awareness when I'm having a conversation with people who live on the other side of the planet and I have to wait for the planet to turn around in order to move to the next comment. What a peculiar sensation!! It might be as if one minute you don't feel any friction inside an insulated jumbo jet which is traveling thru the air at 600 mph. And the next minute that jet is removed and you feel intense friction from the air blasting on your skin and clothing - practically trying to rip the flesh off your body. This is not the normal kind of waiting that I've experienced before. It's different in a way that is difficult to describe. I'm unable to speak about it correctly. It may be that I am not identified as someone who is waiting, but rather I am watching the time move from the outside.

Obviously, this is the edge because I'm not making any sense.

This last week I've been working on the emotional dissonance that I experience from seeing things which aren't there.... yet. It looks/feels an awful lot like seeing things which aren't there.... period. My Subtle Body was reacting to this pattern by blocking the signal. Too much anxiety was arising. So, I worked on it in my dreams. Ran a bunch of worst-case-scenarios and such. It was nearly intentional. Almost like lucid dreaming. Testing my emotional stamina as I saw things which would normally scare the shit outta me or traumatize me. Practicing feeling the difference between detecting Potentials floating around in The Field and re-experiencing trauma or racing thots of doom. Interestingly, I found the place where all these things meet again after the distinction. They are related. And distinct. It's all completely fascinating.

So, the potential to be confused about various things is there. And the potential to distinguish between them is also there. But that ability is not caused by talking about it. Talking about it is caused by gaining the ability. So, I experiment first and talk later.

I think I remember KW talking to one of the callers in one of the phone sessions with him and remarking that it is difficult to map things moving thru time. His maps are for the most part of stuff that is conveniently standing still for us to look at. They do not yet track movement. He spoke of wanting to track movement, but that he hasn't been able to finish that work yet - or it isn't published yet - or something. That's coming from my weak memory. But one of the convos that I have been listening to again this week is him talking to Kevin Kelly. KK seems to have described how things move thru time in a really beautiful way in the 9 Laws of God. KK is interested in one particular kind of Potential and it just so happens that these "Laws" are a pretty good starting place for several kinds of Potentials. The entire conversation actually illumines the kind of point that Greg is suggesting here as well.

Mere Mortals are going to have a hard time detecting the next potential life form because molecules can't see cells. In fact, it is highly likely that it is already here and has been active for quite some time, but we are unable to detect its patterns of being. It's not an accident that KK had a Christian conversion experience. Regardless of whether causality works forwards or backwards thru time, he needed to have the Christian story in order to perceive the Potentials in the Technium and he needed to be making the inquiries into the Technium in order to recognize the truth in the Christian story. They are directly linked.

If a boundary has fallen around humanity in such a way that our movements were understood from a higher order about which most of us knew little to nothing, how would someone who could perceive that order communicate about it to the rest of us?

I love your conclusion here:

"Our feeling self must transcend the body."

I see this as in agreement with what KW says about the Subtle Bodies. I forget all their names. There's Ethereal and Astral, but I don't really know what those words mean to him. I can feel my Emotional Body as the Subtle Body and my Thot Body. The only Body that doesn't transcend the Gross Body is the Gross Body. That's pretty much the definition of the Gross Body.

There is so much here that I can't go into now. I'm returning to identifying with the Body's need for sleep. "I am sleepy". And thus cannot maintain enuf meta-perspective to think clearly. Nevertheless, I feel something in your inquiry that is potent and hope to return to it and discover it.

Blessings.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Great!

Posted September 24th, 2011 by Annie in response to I'll Do My Best

I went back and reread my own comments and thought that I did a really lousy job explaining it, and was quite surprised that you were able to understand me. There is also the possibility that you were just triggered by something I said (in or out of context) and simply are trying to give more clarity to it. It doesn't really matter though...I am happy for the inquiry!

What I find so amusing about all of this is that I know we are talking about the same thing, you see it a bit differently than I do but the feel of it is unmistakable

One of things that I am considering this morning is to define these movements according to "meaning" in this case -- we make meaning.

I would like to try bullets, (sorry but I couldn't get the bullet marks pasted) it might be helpful to see main points and self-standing characteristics, without having sentences run into each other.

The elements in your comments that I cannot relate to according to your choice of words, I would like to choose another word or phrase that I think (if stated) you might tell me if you think it is the same.

The way you are describing; losing track of time, reminds me of someone with their arms outstretched and twirling in a circle, but if we focus on something that does not move we are able to overcome its effects. In the same way, I think we can do that with "meaning", it stabilizes the events and helps us in making patterns that are intended to unite both realities. Would you call this learning to be transrational?

Another important point that I want to interject here is regarding the gross-body. What I have described as felt through the senses (maybe call it transcended senses) does not equate to a felt experience in the gross-form. What settles into the body (described as sediment or debris that falls to the ground) effects the physical form in another way. When you mentioned the force of the movement against the flesh, I could not relate to that. The force of the movement only effects the subtle or causal forms and their properties are completely different, so what is felt in the gross-form has no characteristic of something pushing against itself--only something like a sediment. Does that make sense to you?

I resonate heavily with "seeing things that aren't there" and blocking the signal because of too much anxiety. It amuses me because it has characteristics of insanity, and I think that may be one of the reasons why we fear seeing it. I did not consciously identify this until I met someone who lives there as well, and if you can relate to this...it is quite remarkable. When I talk to him, he says very little specifically, and yet just a phrase or word from him sends me into a awestruck state. The word or phrase reverberates throughout my being and patterns start to form. I start picking up bits of things that (alone) may seem insane, but when joined with other happenings - we can start to articulate it.

The Nine Laws of God - OMG YES! Does this remind you of everything that we are going through? I usually use these same kinds of analogies in my own mind. The technium is the best exterior articulation we have.

I think you are correct in making the connection between the Christian story and the technium, I am thrilled just pondering it. When I began coming here, Ken was talking about all of these things and I felt utterly mesmerized by what flooded my mind. It was like a data-dump that would take years to analyze, and as I reflect yet again...I am blown away (but now I can smile), because somehow I have pieced enough together that can give me some stability. Right now it appears as the only ground I can stand on.

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Posted September 19th, 2011 by Annie in response to The Field...

If you will indulge me a bit I would like to talk about another important aspect of this line of inquiry. To begin with I would need to give you some background, that which has helped me to view it, some of which I have talked about over the last several years.

At one time, many years ago, I thought that I was on the cusp of something that required my last breath. Thinking it would not be realized until I stopped breathing.

Another anomaly was that of something akin to addiction; I would feel it during prayer but most times before and during sleep. I would feel this excruciating anxiety without definition but simply felt as a body going through withdrawals of some sort. This was most alarming, and although I could find definite correlates in lifestyle, the magnitude seemed a bit out of range.

Today I am drawing conclusions given this inquiry addressed, and generally speaking I see a profound relevance with my own experience.

To begin with; it is an impossible feat to identify as the "many", and as much good intention as we might have we are completely limited by having a body that feels. As each feeling is triggered and associated to something related to the body our minds then own that feeling. Making matters worse is empathy...since if we cannot find associations with our individual nature, we are certain to find it elsewhere. This is continuing to make concrete relation to that which is transrational.

What would it mean to feel outside of a body, or to sense without the physical sense organs, and if we did we could all but imagine the limits of a single body's tolerance.

Today I see this as awareness-complete and sensitivity-shy, meaning that it is the body who must adapt to that which it is already aware of. The mind importantly must fail to maintain correlates to the single body, it must continue to learn to experience the freedom outside of the physical form. It is the mind that continues to find localized pain and bliss, love and hate, anger and sympathy, but the mind's capacity (awareness) to experience neither--- must be translated to the body. Our feeling self must transcend the body.

I am also highly suspicious of these correlates in the body; calling it pain and bliss or love and hate, rather before a body they would have no relevance ---so what are these feelings? And you Jennifer rightly point out that it is indeed before time.

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