Question

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Greg Mayers

Does Integral Theory have a teleology or does it tacitly endorse a blind evolution?

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Multiple Choice?

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Jennifer Grove

Any other choices in there? Anywhere?

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answer...

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Charles Bowling

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Hi Greg,

Yes, integral theory holds that we, you, i, and it are going somewhere. And when it comes to sentient creatures this ‘somewhere’ is generally thought of as greater freedom and greater fullness.

If you're in need of a reference, KW goes into this subject at some length in SES.

Warmly,

Charles

88W13'31” 41N54’51”

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The Question....

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Justin Manchester

The question implies a "fixed" integral theory, and while there is apparently significant consensus on integral theory, the question involves the evolution of theory itself and teleology it seems to me is inherent in evolution..... IMO any theory which posits "blind evolution" must at least provide a significant increase in time allowance to achieve a similar result, based on what we have seen if just the last 200 years - the process appears to be accelerating!

So, yes - integral theory does have a teleology but it is also an "open-eyed" rather than a blind evolutionary theory....

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Oh, Goodie

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Jennifer Grove

Hey Charles, do you have chapter and verse for that? I don't mean that in a challenging way, I'm just helped by that and Greg may be too. He prolly doesn't have time to flip thru 600? pages.

I've always gotten the impression that Ken keeps this kinda open, as Justin suggests. That's why I was wondering if Greg saw room for something in-between those two extremes. Attractors come in different shapes and sizes and colors.

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amongst 830 pages...

Posted August 24th, 2010 by Charles Bowling in response to Oh, Goodie

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Hi Jennifer,

The 1995 version of SES has a section titled ‘increasing telos’; located on pages 74 to 78. The index has further references that you may find helpful.

Warmly,

Charles

88W13'31” 41N54’51”

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Not the game

Posted August 25th, 2010 by Annie in response to amongst 830 pages...

I have a second edition copy (Patterns that connect) but I think the point here is that the search for telos is our very identity, we do not rest until we rest in the Timeless Awareness. Humanity’s striving by its very Nature intuits this, the endless search that cannot be satisfied. But that is really not the game, is it? Rather the game is to know Both; Timeless Awareness that Unifies by connecting patterns held together in a context of Love. Losing interest in reaching for a conclusion, does not mean you can stop. Rather; the distance we travel must be endured so that those things whose characteristics are so removed from others, when brought to the nth place will then touch. Like science and religion, once we stop referring to the Absolute as Other we can then resonate utilizing the entire structure.

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moving from librarian mode...

Posted August 25th, 2010 by Charles Bowling in response to Not the game

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Hi Anne,

The 2000 version of SES locates the section called ‘increasing telos’ on pages 83 to 85.

With marvelous directness you have taken this conversation far beyond the place of my simple attempts to be helpful here, when you state “once we stop referring to the Absolute as Other we can then resonate utilizing the entire structure.”

Alas, to do so appears to be very difficult even to conceive of for folks who identify with God in the second person. It's as if God or the Absolute is ‘over there’ somehow, and people are ‘over here’ somehow. As far as i can tell only direct experience is able to overcome this seeming separation. A non-theistic approach such as Buddhism seems to have a leg up in this department by succinctly stating the understanding that Samsara is Nirvana.

Or put another way direct experience is resonance; in physics this is called sympathetic vibration.

Warmly,

Charles

88W13'31” 41N54’51”

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i am sorry

Posted August 26th, 2010 by Annie in response to amongst 830 pages...

I behaved badly, maybe hormones or just my inability to follow the thought process of what is being offered. I am sorry!

I agree with what Jennifer said I only jumped to another view and struggled to make connections that seemed obvious to me but I did not articulate it.

Can I just say that although I do understand Greg’s initial inquiry something else overrode the direction in which it was heading, I saw it as more important but I don’t want to minimize what Greg sees.

What I was describing is of a personal nature, using love as it’s defining characteristic and actually it’s only Characteristic since everything else changes but Love remains. I do not understand Nirvana and Samsara as having those characteristics.

"Embracing gently a greater depth", hence the importance of questions such as these to continue the inquiry asking how do we get there?

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Okay!

Posted August 25th, 2010 by Jennifer Grove in response to Oh, Goodie

I had to dig my SES out of the bottom of my coat closet, but I FOUND IT!! YAY!

The Telos section is part of The 20 Tenets about Holons (Fred Kofman's correction to Tenet 2 can be read here about 1/3 of the way down). Telos is basically in the last bit.

Ken's view seems to be that he agrees with the overwhelming consensus about Telos - that it exists. There are such things as Attractors. But there are multiple Attractors depending on your context and they evolve and emerge over time. Therefore as far as the idea that there is ONE ULTIMATE AND DOMINANT Attractor doesn't work. Ih his words:

"And a final Omega Point? That would imply a final Whole, and there is no such holon anywhere in manifest existence."

But he adds this:

"But perhaps we can interpret it differently. Who knows, perhaps telos, perhaps Eros, moves the entire Kosmos, and God may indeed be an all-embracing chaotic Attractor, acting as Whitehead said, throughout the world by gentle persuasion toward love."

He says alot more too that I love and am planning to include in my plea for a New Mode of Discourse.

Annie's comment is very important. On the one hand, the search for telos is silly because the Ground of all Being is the only universalizing thing and it isn't a thing at all. It is a "State". And on the other hand the search for telos is the only point (<-- pun) of our existence at all. We have to accept it as necessary and good, otherwise we will not develop and evolve new ways of being that will become skill sets needed for future higher ways of being.

Non-duality is manifested in the cognitive understanding and "acting as if" these two realities are "not two". I really love this part here:

"...Deeper and wider contexts exert a pull, a telos, on present limited contexts.

And that is the truth common to all omega-point theorists (and any decent theorist is an omega-point theorist). Assuming that their contexts are well founded, and assuming that they do not engage in reductionism, then there is much we can learn from each of these types of theorists. They always point to ways beyond our present perception, and assuming their contexts are genuine, they are right: we will never be happy until we, too, can live with a larger horizon. Until we, too, can accept the therapia of embracing gently a greater depth..."

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