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Making Integral Sense of Egypt

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It has been an extraordinary few weeks in the life of the Egyptian people and the world as they stood up and demanded a change in leadership in their country.

In this interview, David Riordan and I take a look at what's been happening in Egypt, and where it may lead the country in the future. Join us as we try to make Integral sense of this ongoing revolution in the heart of the Arab world.

So what do you think? Are we currently seeing evolution, revolution, or regression taking place in Egypt? Let us know in the comments below!

 
 

Making Integral Sense of Egypt

 Right click to download mp3

 Duration: 50 minutes
 

 

 

Jeff Salzman

Jeff Salzman is co-founder of Boulder Integral, and creator of The Integral Incubator, a five-day intensive in Boulder, Colorado.  The Integral Incubator is designed to help you get traction on the work of your life, and consciously enact your "next self".   Features guest teacher, Ken Wilber,  plus a great group of integrally-informed coaches.   Next Incubator: March 14 - 18.   FInd out more at integralincubator.org.

 

Photo by latenightcabdriving

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The People's Voice....

Thanks Jeff and David for a great conversation on this amazing time in our history that we are all watching in our living rooms. What stands out for me in this revolution of modernity is that the people have found their power in the mass movement of their non-violent consciousness of unity. If the right leadership can come forth from this modern structure to now take this consciousness forward, then I believe we will witness the winds of karma move throughout the middle east like a conveyor belt, one country after another, to bring us closer to a new civilization that will continue to accelerate into post modern structures.....Very exciting times.

Blessings,

Mary Linda

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Pride can be distinguished from arrogance

because it is present[ed] alongside [or with]

(from maybe?)

humility.

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The 13th Monkey....

Well, it appears I am the "13th monkey" to weigh in on the question of Egypt, which has been, but is definitely no longer the focus of our collective attention.... The whole region of the Middle East and Northern Africa is drawing us in, while an inkling, of a not so silent economic revolutionary revolt may be fermenting in America.

It's quite 'interesting'  really, and demands a certain level of complexity to respond to a question phrased like this: "Are we currently seeing evolution, revolution, or regression occurring in Egypt?"  But.... I'll wager we all know the "integral answer" to that, don't we?

Yes, it is all occurring simultaneously and yet the 'outcome' remains to evolve, revolve, or regress; depending upon the 'dominate tribal' majority and the actual influence they weild; and bear in mind that that tribal majority is influenced by an interpretive, culturally conditioned perspective of another "holy book" as well as the economic spoils that will be left to divide after evolution has run it's course, so we must remember the foundational dictum of evolutionary theory itself!

May I state the obvious? We are standing on a precipice! The potential for disaster is imminent and regardless of the outcome, many human beings have paid, are paying, and will pay the price - much suffering in this region will be endured....

Now, we must look at an assertion made by KW concerning the "conveyor belt of religion".....

 

Love & Regards to you all.....

 

Justin

 

 

Let's Make A World That Works.... 

 

 

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AWESOME

HEY JEFF! Thanks a bunch for the awesome lecture. I'm gonna be honest, I haven't even listened yet and I'm already grateful.  That's what Integral Theory and Integral Institute personally means to me.  I'm an Egyptian American who personally...perhaps even transpersonally?? extends his/our Hand out to Integral Institute.  We would Love to See Integral Theory Gain Traction in Egypt.  I am of the firm conviction that the Middle East in general yearns for a more in depth understanding of Integral Theory and Integral Consciousness!  I've personally been following Wilber's works for years now and I would be very interested in seeing what kind of relationship Egypt and the Middle East, in general, can develop with Wilber, Integral Theorists, and the overall Integral Movement.  I'm gonna make another post in particular response to this lecture but I just wanted to throw that Out There. :)

 

adam

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Guards at the gates...

I was also warmed, even choked up a bit, when I saw that the Egyptian military was on the side of the people. Also, that that the crowds kept getting bigger as the protests faced down reactionary forces.

I'm an American and I was surprised that so many of the people I talked to were completely aware that the US has been helping ruthless dictators around the world in exchange for help with our "national interests". I talked about it with conservatives, liberals, people who don't follow the news and I didn't encounter a single person who wanted to claim that America is always wearing a white hat in every situation in the world. Many of the people I talked to endorsed (half-jokingly) the idea that we pursue an outright Viking-style foreign policy and forget all the human rights BS. Right-wing Americans say, "We've got to cut their throats before they cut ours." Everyday Americans say, "I don't want to pay $5/gallon for gas." Left-wing Americans say, "We're still colonizing everyone." If no one believes the goody two-shoes posture, than why do we present with it? Are we that concerned about how we appear to international law? I wonder if the new Egyptian government will reveal all of our "dark side" dealings we had with Mubarak?

I would be interested to see a follow-up discussion on all the factors that have led to the Arab and Muslim worlds falling behind the West, East Asia, and India. Historical factors, cultural factors, foreign influence factors, natural environment and resources factors, developmental factors...you know, the whole AQAL thing. I'm also interested in the idea the Modernization does not mean Westernization. The ability to see that clearly, along with an AQAL analysis, would help us see more vividly what we could do to help besides the kind of "send good vibes and charitable donations" thing that they ended up with in this dialogue.

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Education

Jeff & David - this was a good summary and integral organizing of such a surprising event and phenomenon. As you pointed out, this has been a living evolution/revolution that can be seen, felt, and understood in real time to a great extent. "The media is the message" to some extent an echo from four decades past - Marshall McLuhan. Integral as a practice - to hold so much, with our uncertainties, ambivalences, confusions, predispositions as with defense mechanisms and habitual patterns. It reminds me of smaller scale challenge for practice in my life with people close to me. I had several questions arise, varying skepticisms - all my stuff. Good education - thanks. (from iPhone)

--

ambo

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poll data

I think we would have to have a study or two before deciding whether this was a revolution for modernity. We know they are sick of Mubarak and want more economic opportunity at least for themselves, but that doesn't mean that they stand for modern values or democracy. Studies of Vietnam War protesters, for example, found them to be a pretty diverse group, with many at preconventional stages of morality, though results varied. [1]

In any case, it's tempting think a majority of Egyptians stand for modern democracy, especially when CNN finds a well-educated, English speaker among them who says it's all about democracy in front of the camera, but probably it's a pretty diverse group, with perhaps not even a majority with modern values and probably many with a partial understanding of modern values and democracy.

I do know of some polling of Egyptians from Pew Research that may shed a little light. Twenty-two percent of Egyptians polled saw a struggle between modernity and Islamic fundamentalists, and among that 22%, 42% identified with modernizers and 58% identified with fundamentalists. I am sure the responses to that question would be different if the poll were taken now, with many more seeing a struggle, but we would probably need more detailed questions to get a good idea.

Just over half Egyptians polled had a favorable view of Hamas, just under half had a favorable view of Hezbollah, and 93% of Egyptians polled had a very unfavorable opinion of Jews. Two percent of Egyptians had a somewhat unfavorable opinion Jews, 2% a somewhat favorable opinion of Jews, and 0% a very favorable opinion of Jews. Of course, a lot of that has to do with objections to Israeli policy, but I would think that a modernist sensibility would be able to differentiate to some extent between a race/religion and the actions of a state. We would probably need more detailed questions there as well to know for sure. [2]

In terms of views on democracy, the results are mixed. Fifty-nine percent of Egyptians say that they think "democracy" is the best form of government, but 95% say that Islam should play a large role in government. Also, 82% of Egyptian Muslims polled say that people who commit adultery should be stoned; 77% say that people who commit crimes like theft should be whipped or have their hands cut off; and 84% say that the death penalty is appropriate for people who leave the Muslim religion. [3]

Terrorists have bombed Coptic churches in Egypt in the past year or so, but some Egyptian Muslims recently formed human shields around Coptic churches to protect them from these terrorists. The human shields would seem to suggest modernity (51% of Egyptians have a favorable view of Christians, 49% an unfavorable view), but I think that their attitude toward Jews and Israel would be the real test for them.

In any case, I think we'll really have to wait and see what the Egyptian people stand for in terms of form of government and foreign policy. I think it's too early to tell. The influence of the U.S. and other Western nations on the process seems to be a very large factor as well, probably an essential factor in terms of establishing a democracy or something headed in that direction.

 

 

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Democracy story

This is a graph of the "democracy score" for several countries.

As you can see, there's a marked difference between the steady up-step of the UK (shown in orange), compared to the sporadic up and down volatility of nations such as Egypt (green), Iran (green), and Sudan (blue).

Just glancing at this graph it looks like democracy doesn't stick, for some reason. 

 

Graph of the democracy score of UK compared to Iran, Egypt, etc.

 

Graph was generated using Hans Rosling's wonderful free tool for exploring statistics about the world:

Gapminder

link to original graph in the Gapminder tool

The tool is highly interactive so you can select any countries and compare three metrics simultaneously over time. There are dozens of metrics to choose from.

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Reflecting on this one, or "It's alot more than that..."

Hey Jeff, what an interesting discussion! On twitter it provided my network of friends and myself endless reflection, inspiration, and wonder. Everyone is chiming in on their interpretations (including myself). So it was good to hear I-I's take on the matter. This left me with a few questions.

"What we're seeing in Egypt... is a punctuated evolutionary month... where modernism is coming along. Modernism coming out of traditionalism, coming out of more authoritarian structures... What does modernism bring? 'I am somebody. My individual human rights are more important, or taken into serious account with the rights of the culture.... It becomes unbearable to to exist under a pre-modern structure."

I found that certain elements were missing in this analysis. For example, the authoritarian dictatorship, although it was "traditional" in the sense that Egypt's culture responded to a leader as a "father figure," etc... The government itself was a secular one, and in addition, many of these revolutions are not necessarily a shift to modernity, but a reaction against it. Many of these nations see themselves as the satellite states and peasants of global, Western Empires, and due to the ability of the internet to organize and gain access to more information (and gain more solidarity), they have decided to stand up. The Middle Eastern news organization, Al Jazeera, chimes in on this subject:

"It is not a revolution, not in the literal sense of the term, not a way of standing up and straightening things out. It is the insurrection of men with bare hands who want to lift the fearful weight, the weight of the entire world order that bears down on each of us - but more specifically on them, these ... workers and peasants at the frontiers of empires. It is perhaps the first great insurrection against global systems, the form of revolt that is the most modern and the most insane.

As much as this is a positive shift, more democratic shift, it is equally a reaction to modernity, industrialization, globalization...or more specifically Westernization. I don't think we can simplify what's going on in Egypt to being only about a linear transition from premodern to modern or postmodern. It's a dynamic in which modernity and the West has spurred, not only a sense of national solidarity for the Egyptians, but catalyzed a human solidarity that is not Western or Middle Eastern, but universal. The philosopher Zizek chimes in on this issue very well when he stated in a recent video on Egypt:

"We like to hear how democracy as we understand it is something specifically western, and so on and so on. How irrelevant all this multicultural talk becomes--there, where we are fighting a tyrant, we are all universalists, we are immediately solidary with each other. That's how you build universal solidarity. It's the struggle for freedom. Here we have a direct proof that A) freedom is universal and B) that cynical idea that somehow Muslim crowds prefer some kind of religiously fundamentalist dictatorship---no, what happens in Tunisia, now in Egypt is precisely this universal revolution for dignity, human rights, economic justice. This is universalism at work.

They understand democracy by doing what they are doing better than we do in the West. So I'm proud for them. The moment you fight a tyrant, you are solidary, no clash of civilizations."

In other words, the reaction against globalism and hegemonic empires is creating a sense of universal solidarity that unites the disparate cultures in a new kind of unity. Western civilization has long been defined as a center that controls the periphery, so what we are seeing in Egypt and the middle east in general, is a collapse of an empire's rule in its satellite states. Only twenty years ago, the Soviet Union experienced this in the revolutionary spirit and global solidarity that united many nations in Eastern Europe and even in the Middle East. Now the US is experiencing something similar:

The only genuine post-colonial message would be one of deference: "Stand aside, and applaud." The great transformative struggles of the past century involved a series of challenges throughout the global south to get rid of the European colonial empires. But political independence did not bring an end to the more indirect, but still insidious, methods of control designed to protect economic and strategic interests. Such a dynamic meant reliance on political leaders that would sacrifice the wellbeing of their own people to serve the wishes of their unacknowledged former colonial masters, or their Western successors - the United States largely displacing France and the United Kingdom in the Middle East after the Suez crisis of 1956.

I think we can say that this is not only about a shift to modernity, but the first inklings of a planetary culture. The West has, for better or worse, united the world through oppression. Often it is some kind of traumatic or destructive event that unites and catalyzes evolution. The Vikings united medieval Europe in terror, preluding the eventual emergence of European civilization and colonialism. Now, European colonialism, and in extension, Western neo-imperialism are uniting the people of the world in global strife---and when they react, they are not just moving up a ladder, but moving the world towards the first planetary culture, beyond multiculturalism or modernism, but into a universal solidarity.

"It seems as if the world is entering the beginnings of a new revolutionary era: the era of 'Global Political Awakening.' While this 'awakening' is materializing in different regions, different nations and under different circumstances, it is largely influenced by global conditions." - Andrew Gavin Marshall, Global Research.

The global crisis is potentially uniting us all in a global transcendence. This isn't just a shift from one stage to another, but a total transformation of the whole geo-political system. We can't ignore the deep, shadow side of Westernization and Globalism, because right now it's this very shadow that is being revealed and transmuted into the light. Egypt is not a regional shift, but a planetary one.

-Jer

PS: I wrote an article about this on Evolutionary Landscapes: Egypt, Transformations & Signs of a Planetary Culture

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he pace of change

There's an excellent essay in the current issue of the British political magazine The New Statesman, which, without specifically using the language of Integral, beautifully endorses Jeff's arguments I think. Here's the final paragraph and then the link below.

The process of change will undoubtedly be long and chaotic, but one thing is certain: the age of Arab-Muslim exceptionalism is over. Recent events point to profound transformations in Arab societies which have been under way for some time, but which until now have been obscured by the distorting optic of western attitudes towards the Middle East. What the convulsions in Egypt and Tunisia show is that people in those countries have drawn the lessons of their own history. We have not finished with Islam, that is for sure, nor is liberal democracy the "end of history", but we must at least learn to think of Islam in relation to an "Arabic-Muslim" culture that today is no longer closed in on itself - if it ever was.

www.newstatesman.com/religion/2011/02/egypt-arab-tunisia-islamic

 

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If Egypt

, rather, the people of Egypt,

were to more gently point out

the changes they personally desired, the changes they are fighting for - 

how long before

they were punished, coercively

or otherwise, both aggressive, in this case...

How gently would the people be permitted to make requests in their personal self interest before the government

abandoned them for a separate interest?

How aggressively

before it was considered a more official threat

(and was most likely then suppressed,

or before

irreperrable (un-repairable) harm?

People are people, after all, even oppressed.  We all know fear.  As adults, we all have the capacity to make certain choices

And actions have corresponding movements, internal, external, both, either

There is only so much 

people are willing to endure, 

once we realize 

that we all have a choice.

Punishment - the whole dynamic - (judgement, guilt, blame - the dynamic cycles arising from the birth of determined, or imagined - obligation - a response to injustice, which only keeps the cycle of injustice in place, rather than freeing the movement to spiral through (hope/longing/Beauty-Justice cycle) - into the manifestation of inter-human Justice) -

Perhaps the issue lies in clarifying - What we do and what we do not - have a right to claim responsibility over, what we have a right to write our name on and what should be returned to it's source (or reflection)

...

                                                                                                      

I.                   Justice (fulfillment, recognizing, and/or Return)

 

·         Confusion about justice has occurred partially due to the human experimentation with the notion of “Divine Justice”

·         The Power and Innocence Relational Cycles (see, for example, “The Justice Cycle)

II. Beauty, the deriving force

 

mark → becomes reflection → becomes source

This cycle moves upward, and does not have a movement backward or down; there is no repetition of any of the three on the same level of the expression and reflection spiral

 

·         The Beauty Justice Partnership 

Innocence is a given.  Human power always has to do with choice - taken from, made for, 

Oppression is an assault to Body, Power is in Voice.

The Return can be symbolically understood as the return of the voice to the corresponding body

 

Thoughts?

Declarations? 

Clarifying questions or responses?

All welcome, requested, even...

kindly

or not, as you wish

preferably kindly

without creating 

further 

separation,

rather - clarifying 

veils, layers

and the like.

And

experience

s