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ATTN. IL ADMINS: PROGRESS UPDATE REQUEST

Posted February 25th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in Online Community

Hia! Love and Blessings to the Team. I know you're busy. I'm just hoping you can squeeze out a quick update on the progress of the New Site.

Purty please?

I'm hoping for some clearly defined spaces so that people can group themselves according to shared value and meaning and advertising oriented posts can be kept separate from blog posts and whether there will be more capabilities for media and whether there will be authoritative moderation of Spamming and Trolls and what feedback and blocking capabilities will be available..... and stuff like that there.

So yeah. It'd be awesome to hear about something a little less intense - at least for us - for a while. Know what I mean?

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Looking Forward to Launch!

Posted February 28th, 2011 by Devin Wilson

Hello Jennifer,

Thanks for your interest. I appreciate your passion and also your compassion in looking for a lighter conversation. I think a lot of good can come from focusing on our creative potential.

The new site is going to launch in less than six months and it's going to be awesome. That's my official promise as the manager of the project. For the rest, I'll try to give you and our other readers a sense of where I intend to steer the IL technology platform. The actual process of getting there is uncertain because our path encounters the facts of technology, the input of our whole ecosystem of stakeholders, our new creative inspirations, and the results and feedback that we get in response to our initial efforts. On the other hand, at some level, our results flow inevitably from what we value. And that's a conversation well worth having.

When I touch in with what currently attracts me to Integral Life, it's this: we have the potential to create mature trust by modelling sanity of discourse.

Framed in this way, Wilber's huge innovation was to pioneer a system of philosophical arguments and value claims that creates a greater depth of trust for a greater span of perspectives. Sanity of discourse is the delicate art of teasing apart and holding those gems of partial truth that we find scattered so variously throughout our lives. I call it sanity because once you "get it", what else could you possibly do?

So how do we create a web site that supports this evolution? First, by not overreaching and creating something that we leave half done, as we did with the current iteration of the community. That's why I'm taking a measured pace and making sure I don't advertise too much up front. As much as I'd like to talk about specific features, that will have to wait until we're closer to launch.

Your question about ways for people to group themselves according to shared value and meaning is of particular interest to me. We will be equipping the site with the capacity for creating groups, but it's still a matter of inquiry how we want to use that ability. Your question is really about how to grow healthy social holons, which is much harder and much more important than adding a set of features to a website. For example, if we just created groups around topics, they would most likely attract all types of values and meaning structures.

One interesting but risky option would be to go straight for our culture's major lines of division. Create an Integral Democrats group and an Integral Republicans group and let each conversation develop independently. So much for the nice rosy illusion that we all agree! When you get into really strongly held values, people tend to feel better about the creation of groups they're aligned with than the creation of groups that they disagree with. It's like, "How could you support that?!" So there's potential for conflict, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The question is how much is right for us at this time, and in what areas? On the other end of the spectrum, we could spend our effort on exploring and articulating just what it is that draws us all together. Either way, it starts with better technology, but also with a collective inquiry into who we are.

Best regards,

Devin

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Awesome!

Posted March 2nd, 2011 by Adam Salem in response to Looking Forward to Launch!

Thanks a bunch Dave, IL TEAM

and Jennifer for the response/inquiry

I look forward to the site's development....and Our development, for that matter ;)

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"Sanity of Discourse"

Posted March 2nd, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to Looking Forward to Launch!

Great phrase. Esp. for me. Very ironical, indeed.

Hearing/reading you say/write all this makes me feel sane because I still need help in the Zone of Proximal Development and cannot rely on my own immunities to protect me from internalizing other people's values about my values or thots about my thots.When I read others saying that I am wrong, or that some value which I don't share is the only correct one, I feel insane. Something is broken inside which prevents me from being immune to their criticism of me. I know that this is Pre-rational stuff. But that doesn't mean I don't need to develop it. I have to develop it and finish it.

The whole reason I come here is because this is what I understood KW's purpose and value to be:

"Wilber's huge innovation was to pioneer a system of philosophical arguments and value claims that creates a greater depth of trust for a greater span of perspectives."

Since I cannot hold myself apart from the values and meanings of others anyway, I appreciate KW's intent here. It gives me a space in which I can be safely exposed as the sensitive and agreeable person that I am at some of my deepest and least conscious levels and integrate that into my larger self. The disagreeable me is a protective shell which I hate and have been trying to shed for as long as I can remember. Some people think that's all I am. They just don't get it. I need this space. And I need this space to be safe.

At least part of it.

Because I plan on developing. And when I develop some immunity and need to expose and practice that, I am gonna need a Fight Club. So, I would want to have an Integral place to practice that as well and not have to slink away to a Troll Hangout where people teach each other how to be brutal and nasty with no awareness or responsibility.

Perhaps what we need are play-pens of various colors with life-guard/bouncers on duty in each one. "Hey! You! You're in the wrong pool! Out!" That sort of thing. All I know is that I need permission and I need a We-space to help me to integrate and develop thru the stuff that is holding me back. I've gotta finish my stuff. And I know that I'm not alone in this. Both on and off the record, this has to be one of the most common complaints that I've heard around here from people: "There's a thorn in my paw and I need help getting it out!" No one seems to be making referrals to Integral Shrinks (NOT Coaches!) who work for free so it's up to us. At least for now. This is going to be one of the big demands of the Holistic Stage, methinks.

There will be legal issues if you create a LL where people start helping each other to heal or become sane. Sadly. Laws set up to prevent the Bad also prevent the Good, so you may wanna find out where the legal boundaries are and post those in plain sight - making it obvious where the cracks and gaps are. "Online communities are not a replacement for qualified professional assistance... blah-blah-blah... " Highlighting the word "qualified"... and such.

"Sanity of discourse is the delicate art of teasing apart and holding those gems of partial truth that we find scattered so variously throughout our lives. I call it sanity because once you "get it", what else could you possibly do?"

Nothing.

But until you "get it" it seems to be quite popular to flame and disrespect other people's partial truths. So... ?

"So how do we create a web site that supports this evolution? First, by not overreaching and creating something that we leave half done, as we did with the current iteration of the community. "

Oh, so making something kinda scalable? Like something you can add "apps" to later? Body Module. Mind Module. Spirit Module. Shadow Module. Dating Module. That sort of thing? You can add them in Beta for free and when they're all de-bugged, re-insert as an official App? Possibly even charging more for the extra value sort of thing? Extra $5 a month for the Dating portion of the site and Real-time interfaces or $15 per each Teleconferencing event? That would SO work!

Oh. You can't talk about it yet, tho. So you won't tell me. Shshshshshsh.

"Your question about ways for people to group themselves according to shared value and meaning is of particular interest to me. We will be equipping the site with the capacity for creating groups, but it's still a matter of inquiry how we want to use that ability. Your question is really about how to grow healthy social holons, which is much harder and much more important than adding a set of features to a website. For example, if we just created groups around topics, they would most likely attract all types of values and meaning structures."

Exactly. Grouping around topics of conversation have been the only means of creating unity or stabilizing social holons in the past. But Integralites may be able to have a Meta view on this. Or they may not. I'm no longer sure of this. It is clear that most of us are here because Integral is the topic of discussion and we love Integral. So we self-select out of the general population and arrive. But once we're here, we can pick up a map at the door and enter into an entirely different mode of discourse. What if we grouped ourselves, instead, around our awakened intent to hold a perspective? Or maybe try holding more than one at a time. Or maybe try holding one we have previously disliked. Or what about Practice groups which iEvolve tried to do? Real-time interfaces which hold Group conversations so they can practice together? I'm just throwing stuff up there. I know I'm not seeing enuf stuff. But topics of conversation are extremely limited to epistemic knowledge only and not gnostic. We need ways to experience interiors together and not just talk about them as "its". If that intent is made clear, then people would be less confused about why problems arise. IL is not the only place where this confusion occurs.

I am convinced that 2nd - 3rd Tier unity will not be dependent upon agreement about topics of discussion. That illusion needs to die at the Yellow Level. Unity will depend to a greater and greater degree on the singular "I" within each of us and the amount of identification we have with that. The more we identify with that, the more the topics become empty and lose their charge. The more our cups are emptied of stuff we thot was self, the more can be put into them by Self which is then totally free to operate according to Love and utility. This is where we meet. Not under some banner of Democrat or Republican, Jew or Gentile, Male or Female, etc. How do you create a cyber interface for that? There are people working on this already. I hope you're availing yourselves of their info. Or maybe that's you! I don't know. I hope you know! LOL

"On the other end of the spectrum, we could spend our effort on exploring and articulating just what it is that draws us all together. Either way, it starts with better technology, but also with a collective inquiry into who we are."

I'm ready to help with the Inquiry if you provide the software. I can't do it alone. But I can help.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Others having similar conversations

Posted March 3rd, 2011 by James Barrow in response to "Sanity of Discourse"

...here.

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Changing...

Posted March 5th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to "Sanity of Discourse"

I think I've "changed my mind" about something over the last few days. When I said this:

"When I read others saying that I am wrong, or that some value which I don't share is the only correct one, I feel insane. Something is broken inside which prevents me from being immune to their criticism of me."

I did not hold the reality that this is an expression not just of something that is broken, but of something that is still healthy. It's still primitive, but if it is held by a more evolved loving embrace that sees more of reality, I can now see how correct it is that it hurts me when people only challenge what I'm saying without respecting the sensitivity of my Presence or deliberately looking for shared meaning or value. When people do that, my healthy Beige/Purple self has a normal pain and stress response.

It is true that I don't have Red "Naturally acquired active immunity", but what's true before that is that I could not possibly have developed those antibodies because the switch for doing so was not turned on. The switch is in Beige and Purple and it exists in the Zone of Proximal Development.

I had no "Naturally acquired passive immunity" in order to develop enuf to create immunities of my own. I don't know if it is possible to acquire that immunity now that I'm in my 40's. If it is, then I need to know how that can be done (for free) and I need a safer space within which to operate until that is accomplished. Otherwise the space is only ripping open the wound over and over, preventing the healing. If it isn't, then I need a safer space within which to operate for the rest of my life. If Integral cannot do this, who will? I know that I'm not alone here. I believe that this is a large part of the general malady that most people with various kinds of pain in the Western world are suffering from and that this is what will be required in order to help them.

We can't just push this off to "Medicine". "Medicine" implies that "illness" exists in isolation, is abnormal and that there are people who are untouched by it. The pain and stress response happens to all of us every day. It is as inevitable as sleep. And unless we are currently able to instantly heal it in ourselves and others with simple care technology, it is possible to believe that everything that "medicine" has done up to this point has been counterproductive in some way to the pain and stress response. All of it. Pain is a healthy signal that something is wrong. And while pain-relief is important, it is not a cure. Health care, in nearly every context, pays lip-service to this, while going about it's jillion-dollar business of pain-relief. And whether or not disease and disorder is considered a result of nature or nurture, Health Care is not currently in a position to perceive the part that We-spaces play in causing pain. And for most of us in the Western World, we have been equally blind.

Inadequate care-giving in the important early life of children creates permanent or currently untreatable damage to human beings. And their care is everyone's responsibility. "Everyone", meaning all of us at once knowing that we know that they know that we know that we're responsible. Not at fault. But responsible. This is what the "Field of Obligation" is showing me right now. An Integral We-space is going to reflect this perception.

For people who want to verbally wrestle and play rough, space is easily made. In fact, the entire www IS that space, as Mark has pointed out. But who will take the time and trouble to do something different? Who will take the time and trouble to create a space that reflects more of reality than simply we're each responsible for our pain in isolation and if we're hurt, we need to drag ourselves away from the we-spaces and isolate?

Now.

Beyond the healing aspects of this, it is clear that "Sanity of Discourse" is being sought in many other place all over the world and this search is being motivated by many other things as well. So, if you (anyone, not just IL staff or contributors) reject the idea of those who are ill getting special protection, forget what I'm saying and listen to/read what others are saying. If you still reject it, well then, just let time work on you. Because change is going to happen whether you like it or not. Sooner would be better. For me. Time - that I, and who knows how many others, could be contributing God-knows-what kinds of miracles to the World - is wasting. Are you going to continue to waste the World's time? How much do you think we have left?

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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How should we build our community?

Posted March 11th, 2011 by Devin Wilson in response to Looking Forward to Launch!

James, thanks for the link to Olen's post. It's great to see that the folks at Beams and Struts are looking at this. It's a really important conversation. I'll be keeping my eyes open for ideas and case studies of success. I think one of the big lessons so far is that no one really has a full answer. That's the main reason for my reserve around talking about the site features. We're going to have to try stuff and find out.

Jennifer, thanks so much for your responses around "sanity of discourse". I personally resonate with both the experiences you described: feeling insane when I'm holding onto something precious that I see others disparaging and also finding within that reaction a thoroughly healthy response to a painful situation. I like your reframe of seeing the vitality within the pain. I agree that we need a frame other than "illness" for this sort experience, which I see as intimately tied to sensitivity in general and to our shared sense that humanity as a whole has great possibilities for growth.

One idea that you mentioned caught my attention: the idea of grouping ourselves around our awakened intent to hold a perspective. That could be a really great tool for self-organizing around sensitive or controversial topics. For example, maybe a group could get together and sketch out a set of "personas" of people who would have a distinct perspective on some topic of interest. So, for a controversial figure like Decker, we could create a persona of a 34-year-old woman who has just left a painful relationship, another for a 23-year-old guy with social anxiety, and another for a 51-year-old family man who has a 19-year-old daughter. The story around each persona could create a safe place for people who want to stay within a certain range of conversation, as well as a way for people to stretch their perspective muscles if they feel so inclined. Plus, it would be fun!

Anyway, I also appreciate your mentioning the Zone of Proximal Development. That's a really useful concept that I think applies (at least by analogy) to every level of our being. It's going into my toolbox. If we're serious about growing from a community that agrees about a theory to one where we support each other in our development (I think we are!), then concepts like ZDP might at times add more to our discourse than metatheoritical frames like quadrants and levels. We have an operating system that helps us organize our awareness (AQAL), but I think we're still working on one that supports us during our immersion in relating.

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Bless Yer Socks Off!

Posted March 12th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to How should we build our community?

Thank you Devin! SO much!

You are so right that there is no full answer yet. This is Turquoise and it is still forming. So, methinks what will be needed is a space that can be reshaped and rebooted as we go. Keeping sections coded separately somewhat may be prudent for that reason - just like how sites who have "stores" have a specially encrypted section for money exchange. It's like an entirely separate site that gets re-encrypted regularly.

Agreement about this goal is interesting to me now. It is important that we agree because this stage structure deserves to be stabilized just like any of them do. And our agreement is also empty. There is nothing there. Very interesting.

"One idea that you mentioned caught my attention: the idea of grouping ourselves around our awakened intent to hold a perspective. That could be a really great tool for self-organizing around sensitive or controversial topics."

Well, actually, that's not what I'm looking at/for. Topics can and will take care of themselves. What is needed is to organize around the "I". The Subject. Not Objects. The Group/Communal experience of the Subject is what is needed. It's what's been lacking. Controversial topics are experienced as controversial because of the charge arising inside of the self. The topics are already objects in the awareness. What isn't yet an object in the awareness is what makes us see the topics the way we do. Turning that stuff into Objects will change the way we see topics. This is not discussion. This is a practice, just like meditation is a practice. And this is what we need to make special space for. Precisely because it is not well-understood.

This may sound confusing but that's because we're using one language to say two different things. The phrase "I accept you just the way you are." can sound like a nice warm hug. But it can equally mean, one warrior meeting another warrior in Battle and accepting that they have come to kill them and not thinking that that guy shouldn't be doing that because it's wrong or whatever. Two vastly different contexts with one meaning. We don't have a Turquoise language yet, so we're gonna be blundering around for a while.

Your idea about a sort-of Role-play is great. Group Voice Dialog would be inneresting too! And lets keep in mind that it is only one practice. We need to be free to try all sorts of things and tweak them and improve them as we go.

I think the Zone of Proximal Development sits "squarely" inside of the Quadrants. It's located as the line between Upper and Lower Quads. LOL It exists in both the Right and the Left. It's part of what is real. And I think you're right, it does exactly this:

"...supports us during our immersion in relating."

AND

There is more at stake here than just relating, tho that is important. Just like the UL is more than thots and feelings, the LL is also more than relating. The "I" resides deep in the UL. And fantastically, it can also be found inside the LL. I've experienced it with some of the people here. This is what I'm interested in, as well as the relating.

I'll try and write more tomorrow.

Love and Blessings to you.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Hi Again!

Posted March 18th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to Bless Yer Socks Off!

I'm sorry that I didn't get back to this. There has been terrible meme-wars going on and I was a casualty. I'm no longer contributing content on the Forums until the new site is up and running. It's just too dangerous. The anti-SD and anti-Integral energies that are loose and Trolling around are totally deadly to any online Presence. I'm not exaggerating.

So.

I'm going to suggest what I think is needed and leave it up to you to figure out if/how it should/can be done.

We need some kind of platform that can handle multiple Presences at once and can be closed to outsiders much like an Instant Messenger or chat interface. I think it should be able to include multiple types of interface at once also. Audio/video/text. On top of that it should be accessible to all the current forms of hardware: pc's, phones, androids, head-sets, etc. The site should be able to run several of these at once. If it would cost big bucks to run it, add a nominal fee and stick a pay-pall on it. Coin-op style. If people have phone cards, let it run on those as well or just add the charge to their bill. All major providers. There should be a way to collect data such as how many are in attendance and if they have a yes/no vote to cast. Possibly link it to polling apps.

Why?

Because the Age where one person can "sound a wake-up call" to the world from a single blog post or pod-cast or whatever is over. The limitations of that platform are holding something back that needs to emerge. And that thing is everyone knowing that everyone knows all at the same time.

If one person says something in a blog post that is all fine and dandy, but if every person hears it as a message to someone else, and not them, then that post was a complete waste of time. Nothing is gained. Such messages are impersonal. No one is talking to anyone in particular. No real conflicts are required. Only ears or eyes. The brains in between those ears and eyes could potentially be anywhere on a scale from earth-worm to God and no intelligence can or will be gathered into a productive unit. It's just wasted bandwidth.

Do you see what I'm saying?

We need two things. You can provide one. We have to provide the other. You can do what I just described. And there are some out here who can come up with the linguistic technology to have effective conversations. I know we can do this. But we can't do it with the technology that is presently provided. We are too easy to pick off by predators. Please get my email from the admins and email me or send me a private message for more details. It is not a good idea to continue this conversation out here.

Blessings.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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Hi Again!