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Communication and the Integral Knife
In the introduction to his book Integral Consciousness, Steve McIntosh tells us that “…the most useful aspect of the integral way of seeing things is how it actually increases the scope of our awareness.”
This might prompt you to ask, “then how can we speak of an Integral Knife?” After all a knife edge is narrow and its point is sharp, and the integral world view is broad and deep. But this is to miss the value of integral in application.
The value of integral in application is not just the greater scope of awareness; it also includes the capacity for added details. Integral does not lose site of the trees for the forest. In fact it is with the sharpened focus of integral that we can more easily spot where and when potential problems may arise in any particular field or endeavor we choose to view from an integral perspective.
It is with this in mind that Shalk and I have agreed to explore how, “using Integral as a knife of discriminating awareness” might help us “to get as clear as we can” so that “our communication can be uplifted”.
In is in this spirit that we start this inquiry and we want to invite all who want to participate. This is not a contest to see who knows more about integral. It is not a game of one-up-manship. This is to be an exploration. The title of this blog post is also the general category for any specific topics we may choose to turn our attention to.
I would like to use this opening post to solicit suggestions for our exploration. Shalk and I each have some ideas but we would like to hear from you as well. So, the question is,
“What aspects of integral theory seem to be most important to pay attention to in order to ensure clarity in communications?”
As of Sunday, Nov 9 we have two great starting points suggested below. I would still like to encourage more suggestions as comments on this main page.
But, I want to get the ball rolling on the discussion so let's use the appropriate comment sections for Shalk's and sham609's suggestion to further the discussion.
At some future date, I will introduce specifically titled blogs to continue the discussion started here.
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Quadrants and Communication
Posted November 9th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Yes, since the quadrants are the foundation for Integral theory it seem most appropriate to start here.
I first want to address an assumption that underlies your questions. That assumption being that it is "useful" to apply the quadrants to communications. I am not suggesting otherwise. It just seems wise to examine the validity of the basis for the discussion before we get too far along.
With that in mind I have some questions aimed at determining the "usefulness"
- What are the problems we see when we do not pay attention to the quadrants in our communications?
- What are some examples where clarity of communication is enhanced by paying attention to quadrants?
- Are there some situations where paying attention to quadrants is more useful?
- Are there some situations where paying attention to the quadrants might confuse the communications?
These are just a few examples to get us looking at this foundational issue first. There is no rush in this exploration. So, do not assume you have to answer all the questions or even to fully answer any question right off the bat.
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validity claim in quadrants
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]In contemplating the questions above I realized just how easily it can be to get confused over different features of the quadrants. Especially if, like me, you may not have been recently refreshed. Recently I created some confusion for myself with the conflation of quadrants and the three modes of knowledge; what KW calls the Eye of the flesh, the Eye of mind and the Eye of contemplation.
The Eye of flesh is used to observe sensibilia. The Eye of the mind is used to observe intelligibilia, and the Eye of contemplation is used to observe transcendelia. It is very easy to conflate sesnsibilia as belonging exclusively to the right hand quadrants. But this is not so. These modes of knowing are related to the various levels and are applicable to each quadrant. This example certainly demonstrates that a lack of clarity about the quadrants can lead to confusion. Score one for usefulness.
Shalk and I have also had some conversation about validity claims. I knew I was a bit rusty here as well. So, I reviewed this too and decided it would be convenient in this discussion to have that info handy.
UL - Individual Interior - Subjective
- Truthfulness
- sincerity
- integrity
- trustworthiness
LL - Collective Interior - Intersubjective
- Justness
- cultural fit
- mutual understanding
- rightness
UR - Individual Exterior - Objective
- Truth
- correspondence
- representational
- propositional
LR - Collective Exterior - Interobjective
- Functional Fit
- systems theory web
- structural-functionalism
- social systems mesh
(from The Eye of Spirit, Ken Wilber, 1997, Shambhala Publications, Inc)
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understanding myself in communication
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to validity claim in quadrantsWhen I look at the quadrants and the validity claims of each quadrant I see one way in particular that the clarity of my communicatins can be enhanced. Seeing the validity claims gives me a clear understanding of one of my motives in communication. Seeing the means by which we can accurately validate in each quadrant helps me better serve that motive. Let me explain with an example.
I will start with the example of "hearing" (or reading, or seeing, or any other mode of communication) from somebody for the first time. Because, this is where one of the most fundamental of our communication motives is most visible. This is where we determine whether or not we wish to "recieve" communications from someone.
And, how do I determine whether or not someone is worth "listening" to? I seek to determine the truthfulness of the source.(UL) After all, none of us wants to be fooled by someone else. We often simply go by how we "feel" about someone in determing if they are sincere. This method is great if we clearly understand why we feel what we feel. (this is a matter of determining our own truthfulness with ourself) But, even if I choose to proceed I will do so with a certain caution. There is a healthy degree of skepticism. By being validated through other means a person can establish trustworthiness in my eyes. I can also look at the integrity of what I am being told.
To further validate if someone is sincere and trustworthy I check what they say against the facts. I look to see for myself if what they are saying is the truth.(UR) Of course, whether or not this is an accurate gauge of their truthfulness will depend on my own ability to see the truth. I can be more objective in checking it out by testing their proposition, seeing if what they say corresponds with what I or someone else I do trust sees to be the truth, or I can "do the math", so to speak, to see if what they are representing is valid. (it depends on what I am being "told" as to which method or what other objective method may be most appropriate)
I can take this one step further by looking to see if what is being "said" is a functional fit.(LR) How does what they are "talking" about mesh with our social realitity, does it provide for structural fitness, is it socially useful and/or applicable.
Finally, if I choose to pursue this attempt to validate to its fullest extent, I will look to see the justness of what I am being told.(LL) Is it in accord with our mutual understanding? How well does it fit into the culture in which it is presented? Is what is being presented contributing in a positive or constructive manner according to the culture's values?
Now, this is what I, as a potential receiver of communication, am attempting to do. The more accurate I am at accomplishing this task and the better I become at see what I am doing the clearer I am going to be on my end of the communication. And, applying this truthfulness test to myself as well will go a long ways in clearing the ground for healthy communications on my part.
(there's one more plus for usefulness: usefulness 2, not useful 0)
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Truth as an Objective
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to understanding myself in communicationI'm going to ask whether you would still say the following with an open heart.
[ ... And, how do I determine whether or not someone is worth "listening" to?....]
Have you met anyone who hasn't wanted to be listened to or acknowledged, somehow?
Truth is a (time)line. Where you fall on it doesn't matter. What you pursue with it does. Quadrants explain as examples of what to look at to determine where one is on the line. Being anywhere along the line doesn't mean someone is wrong, or not being truthful. It's just where they are at. How open can you be with someone who isn't where you are at?
This aspect was missing for me from the expose above, about determining truth, truthfulness and functionality.
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A step at a time
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Truth as an ObjectiveYes, you are correct Katherine. The element of openess was not included above. And, I fully agree with you that there is a degree of truth in every communication. And I do not equate being "worth listening to" with being worthy as an individual. These are certainly valid concerns you express and it is a valuable line of inquiry to pursue.
This question of Integral theory and its application to communications is pretty vast. It seems best for me to take it one step at a time. The step I took above was to look at what most of us have in common in choosing who we communicate with and who we do not. What books we read and which one's we do not. What music we do or do not choose to listen too. What art we choose to view or not. And the list goes on and on.
Whether we are at integral or not does not really seem to change this dynamic. But, it does open it up considerablly. An integral view certainly recognizes the validity of other worldviews, as well as their partiality. And the integral view certainly accepts the value and truthfulness of that worldview - both from its own perspective and the enduring or transcending qualities of that worldview as seen from an integral perspective.
I also agree that truth is a line. What is true for my 7 yr old grandaughter is vastly different than what is true for me. This does not invalidate her truth at all. But, to appreciate her truth I must be able to step into her shoes and see the world as she does. I can see she is trustworthy and sincere and shows integrity with her worldview. But, her truth is partial and I would be making a big mistake if I applied her magical worldview in my daily life. (except when that involves playing and talking with her)
Thanks for opening up this aspect of Integral and communications.
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Shoe fit
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to A step at a timeStepping into someone else's shoes isn't possible. Being with their experience is. For me, this is an example of a saying that attempts to gain perspective, and through understanding IT and quadrants and lines, etc, we can update! .... (challenge)
I appreciate learning more about IT through this format. Thank you for the teachings.
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challenge accepted :-)
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Shoe fitI must say Katherine, you have a wonderful sense of humor. I laughed out loud with your wonderful observation that "Stepping into someone else's shoes isn't posssible". I laugh not only because of the absurd picture that comes to mind as it is immediately validated for me but I laugh all the harder in the profundity of It.
A wonderful observation effectively shared. I am the one that is grateful for your teachings in this line of inquiry.
I love your challenge to update this old analogy. I am tempted just to throw it back to you to see what you have to say. But, I suspect that you will not hesitate to share that with us as you are bound to come up with something better that I do. But, I am not one to leave a challenge laying on the table. (not always the best option)
If I were to state the integral version straight out (with out metaphor) I would re-phrase my statement above as follows: "But, to appreciate her truth I must compassionately embrace her view, so that I might imagine the world as she sees it and can hear her as she describes it."
Now, let's look at the metaphor of stepping into someone elses shoes. To me, this metaphor is actually more akin to stepping into anothers experience than simply seeing from their perspective. If I want to point to perspective alone then it would be enough to say that I must stand where they stand. But, someone's shoes are far more intimate than that. However, my experience in their shoes is not going to be the same as their experience in their shoes. There are definitely some problems with this metaphor from an integral perspective. So, can it be update? Or is there a more accurate metaphor?
(tick, tock, tick, tock ...........)
I've got nothing here ... how bout you?
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Re: Stepping into the shoes ....
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]--
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Keep on keeping on
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Shalk,
I like the way you let your thinking spills out onto the pages. I suspect it is how you best lay out all the pieces so you can better see how they fit (culural fit for I-L, LL validation; functional fit for society, LR validation) Sometimes you are looking to see if there is mutual understanding (LL validation). I suspect this is a time when the first two means are more important to you than the third.
I await what emerges next. Keep on keeping on.
Sincerely
Jerry
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Good Stuff
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Brent Simpson in response to Keep on keeping onThis is all very engaging
I found it interesting that the direction around the quadrants you took Mr. Sherwood in your post "Understanding myself in Communication". Namely, from UL to UR to LL to LR . Now, this arouses my interest. As, it may well be the case that is a more masculine way of taking in and processing information. This is a bit of an open-question for me. As, it does seem possible that you could begin in for example, the LL (where you ended) or, for that matter any quadrant. For example, considering questions such as "is this idea just?" "How will my friends except this form of communication." and so forth. Now, I don't know if you were saying that we always in communication follow this clockwise pattern around the quadrants or were just using that particular order at random. However, I got the sense from your post it was the former (there is an order to it).
I found the conversation on "stepping into the shoes of the other" also a curious one. Perhaps, this particular phraseology can be nailed to a certain level of development. (My guess is orange) why? It has sort of a worldcentric edge to it... it seems to require a kind of if...then ability to cognize. However, it runs into the problem of the notion of perfect moral reasoning. If this were true it would mean one would be capable of stepping into the others shoes 100% (or, be able to witness from the others perspective fully). So, I certainly can't do that. It's the same problem with 100% truth we can get ever closer to it, but it seems to recede into infinity. Multiplistic (a term sometimes used to capture the orange altitude) from my understanding means (among other things) one can work with goodness, truth and beauty and not mesh them into a singular goo... (but from my take away of integral often this orange person is still looking for 100% goodness, truth and beauty (in things).
With all that said, I still think the "stepping into the shoes of the other" is a useful concept for moral integral thinking despite its (at least from my perspective) orange level way of doing moral reasoning. We can recognize that our ability to step into anothers shoes will never be perfectly done, but we can work towards doing it more perfectly as we do with our uncovering of truth and beauty. (Sorry as this is slightly off topic)
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Clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Good StuffWelcome to the conversation Brent,
Let's start with your first observation and the question it raised. You say, "I found it interesting that the direction around the quadrants you took Mr. Sherwood in your post "Understanding myself in Communication". Later you say, "I don't know if you were saying that we always in communication follow this clockwise pattern around the quadrants or were just using that particular order at random. However, I got the sense from your post it was the former (there is an order to it)."
I did not compose what I wrote with a particular order in mind. But, I did start in the UL intentionally. That is because this, imo, is where we each start when determining how to or if we will entertain someone's communication. We look, as best we can, towards the interior of the individual. Of course we cannot really see their interior. We only have what comes to us from the the other quadrants. Which quadrant we look to first to actually begin the validation process might depend on what quadrant they are communicatin in. Keep in mind that there are many forms of communication besides words. In fact, imo, all activity by us, and all other holons, can be said to be a communication. But, that is far to deep to go into now. (just something for you to ponder)
I agree fully with your observations about the usefulness of the well worn metaphor of, "stepping into the other's shoes". It is limited, but if I am aware of the limits then I am not limited by it.
Jerry
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Shoe shine
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to challenge accepted :-)I listened to #3 of 3 of In the Company of Truth - Braham is the World. Being with another's experience means to be "open" to allowing for the experience, which is a skill beyond the feeling of oneness and nonduality. Still not standing in someone else's shoes. It is what enables someone to be with another's experience.
Very very good to know that my sense of humor can be derived from my writing. Thank you for saying so!!
In regards to a new ...slogan.... hmmmm....
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Understanding Others in Communication
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to validity claim in quadrantsThere was a recent exchange in the I-L online community that really brought home for me just how delicate this type of forum can be. So, is there any way that working with the AQAL map and Integral Theory can help us avoid these messy exchanges? One of the first places we see tempers flare is when we think someone is lying in making their point. "They are not being truthful about what I said!" But, is this necessarily so?
As I pointed out in another post in this thread (Do we depend?), because all perspectives are, by definition, partial views, no one can really speak or otherwise communicate the full truth. "In a sense we all lie. But, that does not necessarily mean we are not being truthful." As long as we are honestly reporting what we see we are being truthful. Insofar as we acknowledge the inherant limitations we face we make a concession to the truth. That is really the best a human being can do (as far as I know from my perspective). If we can understand that about ourselves, then we go a long way towards understanding that in others. This is a good starting point for all communication.
One of the fundamental ways a perspective is severely limited is through misunderstanding. When it looks like someone doesn't understand what I said I can remember that it is more accurate to say that they did not understand what I meant to say. No matter how clearly I understand myself there is no guarantee I am going to be understood by others. The remedy is a LL affair, be sure there is mutal understanding rather than assuming some nefarious motive on the part of the other.
For now I just want to offer one more potential problem area. It is an UL affair and is related to the problem Shalk has mentioned elsewhere in this thread (Furthering the Inquiry). We will not always know what the others interest is in responding to our communications. It may or may not be directly related to what we are want to talk about. Shalk had a great example of this. I will try to offer another. Actually, this example is a mixture of what I covered above and this question of what quadrants are being spoken about?
Let's say I want to talk about a cultural phenomena (LL), the strange and perhaps unhealthy facination the people in my part of the country have for "The Secret". I get a response that is very aggressive in tone and filled with apparent misunderstandings. It is the agressiveness of the tone that can get me off track. Why would I want to clarify anything when I am being berated for views I do not hold? But, a clue to the agressiveness was there in writing. While I wanted to talk about how the Secret was a cultural problem (LL) the anger from the other was about perceived Social injustices of western institutions (LR). If I pick up on that I can acknowledge and have compassion for the way the other person feels (UL). Then I can more easilyturn to the question of clarification to be sure we have mutal understanding (LL).
I apologize in advance if I have stepped on any toes or caused any embarassment with this not very well disguised example. I do not offer it to point any finger of blame. Rather, I hope this can help us all to see that we have the tools with the AQAL map and Integral Theory to help elevate or our communication onto the highest level we can. I could, of course simply look to communicate here with people I feel already do this, but that should be a good clue to me that I am not prepared to do the same. As has been said by one much further along than I, "you must be the change you want to see" (or something to that effect)
I offer this in loving kindness
Jerry
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Integral communication
Posted November 9th, 2008 by sham609Interesting topic guys. I'm currently reading a book on non-violent communication, and so your inquiry is of particular interest to me. So to start this off I would say one important aspect of effective communication within AQAL model is being aware of the general stage of development of the "other" you are engaging. A simplistic example from my personal experience revolved around discussing religious issues with my amber, evangelical Christian mother-in-law. We used to get into some rather heated discussions regarding homosexuality/gay marriage, abortion, etc. In the past I generally approached these topics from an orange/green perspective, and she simply couldn't accept what I was saying. However, I am learning how to talk the amber talk, and by using the imagery of the loving/accepting Christ in my discussion with her we can actually have much more fruitful dialogue.
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Line's and Communications
Posted November 9th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Integral communicationYes, the developmental lines are a key feature of Integral theory. In fact it was a mapping of the cognitive development line in "Spectrum of Consciousness" that served as the point of departure in KW's quest for an Integral model or map.
It will eventually give way to the examination of all the lines but it seems the easiest place to start is the cognitive line or maybe a combination of the cognitive and values line.
Correct me if I am wrong but I see cognitive applying to the capacity for complexity in thought. This shapes the parameters of my worldview. The values line applies to the breadth and depth of meaning and gives color and content to my worldview.
That being said, you give a wonderful example of how honoring the viewpoint (worldview) of a particular level is closely tied to the language used. This triggers a couple of questions for me
- Is the "language" that is used superimposed on the conversation? That is to ask, is it a matter of "learning the language" so that it can be "used" to make a point?
- Or, once the language is understood and acknowledged to have some validity, does learning it enable me to better step into the shoes of the other?
- Or, is it both?
- In speaking the language do we do this only in meaning (value line) or also in structure (cognitive line)?
I hope this provides a basis for moving this question forward.
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Extending an example
Posted November 9th, 2008 by sham609 in response to Line's and CommunicationsI think I can best answer you questions by elaborating on my mother-in-law example. As I currently understand and experience higher orders of consciousness, I find that I can empathize more completely with others. When dealing with my mother-in-law, I "knew" I was coming from the higher, or more inclusive, perspective. However, I was always frustrated by my inability to convince her of the "rightness" of my perspective. What I finally learned was that by entering into my own awareness of amber (which of course I had experienced during a phase of cognitive/value development), I was able to "tap into" her worldview...I could feel it and see it...and from a more inclusive cognitive map I could use language she identified with and show her how her worldview could become more inclusive (like the Christ she worshipped).
I think we should never underestimate the power of our language to create our world(view). Wittgenstein was correct in his recognition of how our language creates pictures for us, pictures that create our "reality". Our language not only creates our meaning, but also our structure. Once we realize this, and we are cognitively able to hold this basic truth, we can become more flexible in our interactions with others. This is not done in a manipulative way, but in a way that hopefully promotes a resonance for those involved in any communication dealing with views and values.
In my interactions with my mother-in-law, I was most surprised by how much I learned from her perspectives. My agenda (convincing her of the "rightness" of my position) faded as I gained a bit deeper understanding of her worldview. As I resonated with her cognitive/value line, and her "lot in life", I understood why she believed the way she did. This simple lesson, of stepping into another's shoes, is to me the cornerstone of truly Integral communication.
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Take it a step further
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Extending an exampleYes, this has been my expeience too. The better I am able to "step into the other person's shoes" the better our mutual understanding. The better our mutual understanding the more clarity is enhanced in our communications. It is always better if two people are speaking the same "language."
You shared how you were able to tap into your mother-in-laws language by drawing upon your own experience. But, this is not always possible to the same degree. That is, suppose I am in a conversation with someone who predominatey holds a conformist or amber world view but they come from a different culture than any with which I am familiar? Now, I can draw on what values and viewpoints I still include but my understanding of how they language that is going to be limited. How would you go about getting "into the other person's shoes" then?
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Excellent point
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Anne,
This relates to the next step I was preparing to take in disussing how quadrants and validation in the quadrants can contribute to clarity in our communication - in relation to the role of the other. I might write more on that (we will see) but here I want to touch on this most valuable point you have made.
Genuine kindness and humility are essential to even open the door to clear communications that can result in resolutions that serve both or all parties.That is because, as you rightly pointed out, these qualities convey to the other party your genuine sincerity and appreciation. This serves to answer the question we all first bring to a potential conversation, "can I depend on the truthfulness of this individual?"
Important question is, "if I am trying 'to be charming' am I being genuine in my kindness and humility? Or, am I looking to "charm" the other person, put them under my spell, so that I can better handle them? Some people can be charmed, others will sense right away and rightly be suspicious.
Having encountered you in this community I know one thing. You have no need to be charming. Your kindness and humility arise naturally and spontaneously.
Jerry--
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Depends
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to Excellent pointDoes AQAL allow for everyone to be speaking the truth all the time? Even if they are lying.
That seems to me how someone whose heart is open knows inherently what the truth is, where the search within us lies, whether on the surface, covered or in hiding. So, "can I depend on the truthfulness of this individual?" is a boundary elevator, or wall propagator, and concerns me because it inherently comes from somewhere else. Naturally nobody wants to get hurt, so we mark our territory in the hopes that others keep their distance. This limits contact with our self because the walls we impose on others are a replication of walls we have within us. BTW--- using ... can I "depend" on the truthfulness.... led me into this query.
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Do we depend?
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to DependsIf you mean does AQAL allow for everyone to speak the truth as they see it, even if they are lying to themselves and others then I would say yes. After all, who can say they know the truth in an absolute sense? All perspectives, by definition are partial. Acknowledging the partial nature of one's perspective is a concession to truth, but still does not allow the full truth to be expressed. In a sense we all lie. But, that does not necessarily mean we are not being truthful.
But, my truthfulness can and should be called into question when I knowingly lie to another. And, if I am one who habitually lies then why should anyone "depend" on me to be truthful? As the old saying goes, "would you buy a used car from this man?"
Then there is the question of truthfulness and truth. I return to the example of my 6 year old grandaughter. She can be truthful and sincere according to her own worldview. But, can I "depend" on her to tell me the truth about about Santa Claus? Likewise, when I talk with my neighbor and she tells me I am going to hell for not believing as she does, should I "depend" on her for the truth about spiritual matters?
I do not equate good discernement, whether it comes from the heart or the mind (and the best discernment comes with the joining of heart and mind) with closing my heart to another. My checkbook maybe, but not my heart. I do not see good discernment as an impediment to relationship. On the contrary, if I am truthful with myself about my own and anothers limitations I am actually more free to be myself and to let them be who they are. Indeed, the truth can set you free.
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Discernment
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to Do we depend?Thanks for helping me understand deeper what depend can mean. Seems I had a very limited view. Helps me pinpoint my real concern, which is, being able to discern where someone else is coming from... Because, even if I am being honest with myself, it doesn't mean I have the skill of good discernment about someone else.
Katherine
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Pondering the Pondering
Posted November 12th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Hello Anne,
Once again Anne you demonstrate a wonderful capacity to dive beneath the surface of the written words. I love your imagery of a "giant jigsaw puzzle". And, your discription of how each piece that presents itself for placement gains in uniqueness in how it fits into your picture is worth some pondering of its own. It serves as a reminder to all of us to release our words and images that we present to others, with out attachment to how the gift may be used.
An Integral perspective certainly supports this attitude. As one that respects the "spiral" and the "holons" that traverse along its course we acknowledge and encourage both their agency (individual integrity) and communion (community support). The integrating processs occurs in the individual and through the individual, this is its uniqueness. The communal activity of an individual can be encouraged and supported, but dictation is counter-productive. The backlash that occurs disrupts the "whole" process (agency and communion all along the spiral).
As to the partiality of perspective you are correct, from the relative perspective of the perceiving consciousness the view is full and complete. But, your image of a jigsaw puzzle still coming together (an infinite puzzle perhaps?) speaks to your own acknowledgement that your view is yet partial. How else would you recognize missing pieces?
Jerry
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Step by step
Posted November 15th, 2008 by sham609 in response to Take it a step furtherSorry for the delay in response. I think your question on how we relate to others with markedly different cultural beliefs and views is important. I'll bring up Wittgenstein again because he had an example on the limits of language and mutual understanding I think is apropos to this discussion. Wittgenstein asked us to imagine a room full of people (let's say from many different cultures). Each person is given a box, and each person can only view what is in their own box, but no one elses. Each person then looks in their box, and they each describe what they see as a "beetle". Unfortunately, since no one can look into anothers box, the group fails to realize that the word "beetle" means a bug for one person, a coin for another, a piece of candy for another, and means "nothing" for another. Though the whole group would agree that a beetle is in the box, there really is NO mutual understanding in this scenario.
And so to answer your question, I don't think we can effectively "get into another's shoes" if there is no commonality in experience, culture, language, etc. Fortunately for us, most of humanity does share at base at least some common worldviews and beliefs. Language (and hence communication) requires mutual understanding of the terms being used. I could effectively inhabit my mother-in-laws world because I have been raised in a similiar culture, where certain words elicit a similiar "picture" in my mind, and I know that using the image of the compassionate/inclusive Christ would lead her to see a certain "picture" in her mind.
Often times the reason we fail to understand another (their behavior, decisions, and beliefs baffle us) is because we are unable to truly inhabit their worldview because of our own limitations in experience or language. The vast diversity of humanity makes it impossible for us to ever be able to fully understand all individuals. And the truth be known, I doubt most of us really want to understand everyone we meet. Most of the time we think our individual worldview is the correct one, and hence those who disagree with us must be wrong and in need of our edification. From what I understand about "second tier" consciousness this "habit" starts to fade as one enters second tier, and our ability to "get into another's shoe" becomes easier because we have a better shoehorn.
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Mutual understanding and 2nd person perspective
Posted November 22nd, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Step by stepYour response raises several questions for me. Rather than offering my observations at this point I would like to share the questions.
Is it correct to conclude from Wittgenstien’s thought experiment that “there really is NO mutual understanding in this scenario”? Is mutual understanding dependent on a common language? Does the LL quadrant depend on a common language? Does mutual understanding arise as part of the “we” space? Or, is mutual understanding the ground of “we”ing?
What does it mean to “effectively” take a 2nd person perspective? Does better communication enhance 2nd person perspective Does taking a 2nd person perspective enhance communication?
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Wittgenstein's beetle and other such nonsense
Posted November 23rd, 2008 by sham609 in response to Mutual understanding and 2nd person perspectiveWell I admittedly twisted Wittgenstein's thought experiment to meet the needs of our discussion. So realizing the twisted nature of my interpretation of Wittgenstein, let me say to your first question that "yes", mutual understanding is dependent on a common language in most circumstances. However, to answer your second question about the LL quadrant depending on a common language, lets change Wittgenstein's beetle in the box experiment just a bit. Let's assume that everyone in the room has a different culture and language. However, we are now allowed to examine each other's boxes. Now when I look at the person's "beetle" that meant a coin (or a piece of candy, or "nothing) we can now examine and compare our physical objects, and reach a significant degree of mutual understanding.
I understand your third set of questions about the "we" space. And the answer, I think, to both questions is "yes". However, it should be noted that I can resonate with your question because I understand AQAL theory, and I have experienced "we-ing" in the first-person phenomenologically, as have you.
As to "effectively" taking a 2nd (and 3rd) person perspective, I suspect this is the principle aspect of Integral communication that we are trying to explore. Second tier consciousness, it would seem to me, is the shoe horn that allows the "shoe" to get bigger, if we can pursue this crude analogy any further. As for "openness", it would likely be the key ingredient that allows us to see beyond the "shoe" altogether....
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Language and mutual understanding
Posted November 25th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Wittgenstein's beetle and other such nonsenseYes, the first experiment did show there are limits to language as it relates to mutual understanding but it did not demonstrate a limit to mutual understanding. The only reason there was no mutual understanding in the experiment was because of the limits of the experiment itself. (the participants only being allowed to look in the box and then state what they saw).
Your 2nd variation on the experiment (allowing the participants to also look into each others' box) was a physical activity that allowed them to "effectively" (and literally) take on the other person's perspective. From there they were allowed to extend their mutual understanding as it related to the contents of the boxes. This is getting much closer to what I was trying to get to when I asked you to, "take it a step further". (title of 4th comment above)
In that comment I observed that there could be a situation in which, "... understanding of how they language [their amber world view] is going to be limited." I then asked, "How would you go about getting 'into the other person's shoes' then?" The answer is, "I will seek out more information that can help me to establish better mutual understanding."
In a conversation with someone who does speak the same language but maybe has a different religious background than my own this simply means I ask questions. And I repeat to them my understanding of their answers until we can agree that I correctly understand what they mean to say. If I really want to share another person's perspective then it is my responsibility to achieve as much mutual understanding as I possibly can. (remembering that mutual understanding is not the same as mutual agreement) My question was never meant to imply that there was no common language at all, simply variations on terminology.
As to what constitutes "effectively" taking a 2nd person perspective I only ask this question to point out that what is effective is relative to the situation. If I was to find myself in the company of someone that did not speak the same language as me it would be effective for me to consider what it would be like to not be able to understand what is being said to me or have other people understand what I am saying. This can open the space for empathy and compassion that can create the atmosphere for each of to make the best efforts we can to achieving some level of mutual understanding.
As to openess this is always the key to enlarging our perspective because to open up means we are willing to leave behind the comfort, security and limitations of our own shoes. (to play with this poor analogy a little more)
Thanks for engaging ...
Jerry
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clear cut view
Posted November 9th, 2008 by Katherine KonnerIf there is an opening for Indigo and beyond, then it's logical that the goal is to pioneer this path. This is approachable with a system that allows for it's possibility, that allows for itself to unfold, that allows for itself to be replaced. If all quadrants are attuned and working, the dimension procreates and appears within the embodiment of itself.
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Do I understand correctly?
Posted November 9th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to clear cut viewHello Katherine,
I have returned to this comment several times today to ponder its meaning. I initially "felt" that I got it on an intuitive level but was not positive if my intellectual translation of that knowing was correct. So, I would return every hour or so and read it again with an open mind. Still, the same point seems to be emerging. So, let me run it by you and see if the meaning I am giving it is the same as the meaning you intended.
Basically, what I hear you say is that:
- it is only right and logical to explore through a method or system of thought what it means to embody a higher level of understanding.
- But, the system cannot be too rigid or there should not be an attachment to it that does not allow it to be discarded in order to actually embody that higher level.
- Finally, if we are fully in acccord with the quadrants as they arise they will naturally be expressed through us. No effort required.
Does this reflect at all what you call a "clear cut view"? If not can you clarify?--
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Dimension of Procreation
Posted November 9th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to Do I understand correctly?Hi Jerry,
Thanks for contemplating what I wrote about. The intuitive hit you experienced is encouragment for my sometimes pensive view of my ability to construct words in response to ideas. So, double thanks! In response to your reflections, ---
1. IT is about mapping reality as it is, while simultaneously allowing for what it becomes. At the physical experience, we strive for 'something', be it getting better at chess, or finding a cure for XDR-TB (extremely drug resistant TB), or discerning a higher consciousness, and being able to express it and map it for others to experience. So my thought is that it is only "logical" that some people interested in IT are not only learning about IT, they are learning it well enough to open doors that weren't visible before.
1 & 2 combined --- I imagined Newton sitting under the tree. He's been pondering for quite a bit, what the map of reality at the time was. There was something though, that he focussed on, that his intuitive guidance and questioning intellect propelled him to continue thinking about. So, 1) he thought through what existed, 2) he knew there was something.... more, else, different, other...., 3) he thought through what that could be and in order to do so, he needed to discard previous held beliefs, ideas, etc., 4) conditions allowed for spontaneous assistance (an apple dropped).........
No right or wrong. Observation. Contemplation. Consideration. Necessity. Procreation. Embodiment. Duplication. Addition to map. New map.
2. Learn the system. Use it well (that would be the best use of it, yes?). Systems are products of their time. Ok. Sometimes ahead of their time. Still, systems encompass what exists and as what exists becomes updated or outdated, so to does the system. Find what's important. Hold onto what's important. Stay attached if you want. There's so many ways that it's not right or wrong . Only depends what you want to do.
A system needs rigidity to maintain boundaries for its existence. However, a self-fulfilling system allows for it's own restructuring, to enable it's existence, in part or perhaps in totality, to remain existent. Do we need to discard anything to attain a higher level of consciousness?
3. I would change the wording to be like this:
If we are fully in accord with the quadrants as they arise they will naturally be expressed AS us. EFFORT IS REQUIRED.
Heck, Newton went to relax under that tree. But it wasn't as though he hadn't tirelessly before or after been searching for how to express what he was guided to discover!!
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Re: Dimension of Procreation
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Dimension of ProcreationKatherine,
I wanted to get back to this exchange of views with you. I see the slight differences between what I heard and what you meant. I understand your view and see how the contemplation of "Newton sitting under the tree" helped shape that view. Let me first say how I enjoyed reading this Intuitive hit of yours that you first shared in your self described "pensive" style. (an effective style for you)
This musing way of voicing an Intuition is very flexible and allows greater space for individual interpretation - very much like the Intuitive knowing itself (which comes as one whole package that needs intellectual unpacking to communicate, in my experience). So, I took it back in (as a whole) utilizing the context set by the opening line, "If there is an opening for Indigo and beyond"
Thus, what came back for me was very close to what you expanded on. The added breadth and depth of what you provided did not contradict most of what I understood you to say. I particularly liked the opening details. But there were a couple of distinct differences.
You described a real separation between what you meant and what I heard concerning my observations about the system, that "there should not be an attachment to it that does not allow it to be discarded"
You voiced your view by saying, "Stay attached if you want. There's so many ways that it's not right or wrong ." and later you asked "Do we need to discard anything to attain a higher level of consciousness?"
In answer to your question, I point back to the words you used in describing the process Newton went through. In step 3), "he thought through what that could be and in order to do so, he needed to discard previous held beliefs, ideas, etc" apparently the answer is yes. If that is so then attachment is definitely no going to be helpful.
I appreciate your pointing out the implication, by my use of the word should, that it is wrong to be attached. I too do not see it as right or wrong, just not helpful or particularly efficient - resistance seldom is.
The last difference between us concerns, the expression by me that "when we are fully in accord with the quadrants as they arise they will naturally be expressed through us. No effort required."
You offered this alternative, "If we are fully in accord with the quadrants as they arise they will naturally be expressed AS us. EFFORT IS REQUIRED." (btw, the change from through to AS is a much better expression)
Then you offered this observation as support, "Heck, Newton went to relax under that tree. But it wasn't as though he hadn't tirelessly before or after been searching for how to express what he was guided to discover!!"
My question is, might there not be a differences in how the transformation in consciousness from Amber to Orange (presuming that is what Newton symbolized for you) is expressed in terms of effort and how it may be expressed at "Indigo and beyond"? And would not the notion of WuWei (effortless effort) best describe the process of Procreation? (who is there to effort? But still so much gets done)
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Creation of Procreation
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to Re: Dimension of ProcreationWhen I write and write and write, I find that my view keeps changing and changing and changing. As I write I revise (and revise). Those 2 initial sentences took over half an hour to think through, feel through, find a resonation, a consciousness that left what I was looking for. Thanks for the feedback about it being effective.
Then there are the times I write and write and revise and revise, but I allow for different resonations and not as high a consciousness to develop itself. This type of writing is where you found inconsistencies. Thank you for letting me know the obviousness in change of style (or stages).. and that should I ever write a book, I'll need to do many more exercises to stay congruent or else a really good IT editor!
So, in response to your inquiries -- I was not thinking in terms of IT when I was thinking about Newton. The only reason I started thinking of Newton was because I saw a photo in a magazine of the original Apple Computer logo -- and I finally understood how Apple got it's name. I don't know the color chart by heart, as I've only looked at it twice. It'd be great if you'd write about Newton (based on what I wrote) so that I could hear how you approach, analyze, and speak about things relating to AQAL.
Insofar as the attachment and discarding of old ways --hmm. I am wondering if this is like the shoe fits thing... Originally I visually saw that when you make changes to a map, the new replaces the old (the old is discarded). Same with systems. However, Consciousness doesn't seem to need discarding. Consciousness exists always in all ways. It's how or whether you attune to which way.
So now I'm wondering, might we also declare the same about the USE of maps. Depends which map you use, yes?
And Newton, did he discard certain facts to make room for the possibilites of what was then, beyond reason? Or can we say that all he did was draw a new map, created a new system. Because there were 2 systems simultaneously in existence for quite some time, at least, until his new map was accepted...............................
If you don't mind, I need to take the time to go into a different state, and go to where my initial 2 statements emerged from. I'll write about this in a different comment box.
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Facts and Maps
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Creation of ProcreationThe symbols of maps point to facts as they were known by the one that drew the map. When a new explorer uses an old map and then enters confusing territory he can decide he has misread the map and gotten lost and give up, returning to familiar territory. (no new map emerges) Or, the explorer may decide the map is correct "despite" what he sees in the territory. (no new map emerges) Finally, there is an explorer that decides the map must be in error, disregards the facts on the map and plunges ahead to map the new territory. The new map she creates is built on the old (after all it was not totally in error) but its dimensions and some of its symbols may change while other symbols are discarded and new symbols are added.
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Spirituality
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to [Comment Deleted]Hi Anne,
I made a decision to keep asking/praying to God (belief system) "What do you want of me?" I'd correlate this to inquiring to the Heart of Spirit. It is what drives me. Opening the heart. Developing greater capacity. Having higher altitude. Learning about archetypes. Shadows. Learning about AQAL. Learning to sit with others. Entering the Castle. Learning the skill of light and energy. Taking acting classes. Composing music and lyrics. Whatever is needed. It's a lot of work. I love the work because it's about exploration, discovery, interaction, maybe making a difference... the minimum of which is me, the medium which is all of us, the net effect being...
Katherine
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A community for communication
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Hi Anne,
You say, "I am particularly interested in the AQAL and Quadrant aspects in clarifying some of my own thoughts and experiences."
You have brought an aspect of communications into his discussion that certainly bears examination. And it is a very important aspect becaue if we do not have clarity in regards to our thoughts and experiences we are not likely to be very clear in communicating with others. However, I want to quickly point out that simply acknowledging our own limitations is a sign of greater clarity. Furthermore, it is the intent to be clear that matters the most. I am not sure perfect clarity is attainable in this human form. (but, that is just my oppinion)
Considering what you say about Mystical experiences and your sense that "it has implications for responsibility and the inclusion of other life experiences." I gather that it is this feeling that something is being "communicated" to you that you cannot quite get your mind around. Is that correct? If so the question then would be how can AQAL help you make sense of that? Specifically how do you Live what you have seen?
Since the Mystical experience is a State experience the first thing AQAL tells me is that how I interpret it will be in accordance with my present stage. That does not make my interpretation better or worse than an interpretation from any other level, just different. Still, broader and more inclusive structures of consciousness, by their very nature, are larger containers and capable of holding a greater portion of truth (if you will).
From there I would suggest you look over the post on validation in the quadrants discussion and see what that might indicate to you in terms of how you might go about verifying the accuracy of your ideas. (keep in mind that each quadrant can be view with the Eye of flesh, Eye of mind and Eye of contemplation)
Reaching out as you did to the community here was a way of doing just that. You were wanting to see if the experience you generally described was something that could be mutually understood in the We space of the I-L community. For this experience I-L seemed to you to be the best community for communication.
Are there other ways to validate your experience?
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Spirit of We
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to [Comment Deleted]Anne,
What great questions! It calls on us to explore the possibility of stretching the boundaries of how we communicate. Is this possible? "Can we share our feelings/ experiences/ sights and sound?" Does this "We space ha[ve] the ability to transmit/transmute/transport our deepest Selves to each Other?"
A very important piece of the AQAL map and Integral theory is the notion that each quadrant, including the We (LL) is subject to be investigated with the Eye of flesh, Eye of mind and Eye of contemplation. To me this supports the the validity of asking these questions.
I can say from my own experience in doing coaching over long distance (most of my clients are not local) that I am amazed at the level of connection that is established. So, I can cite my own experience as anecdotal evidence in support of greater possibilites than most people imagine.
Regarding the plaintive cry that you, "feel the pain of: What if no one hears?" I point you back to your own answer, "It's like 'Love always wins', the players matter but the outcome is the same."
Jerry
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The spirit of we (all the way down)
Posted November 13th, 2008 by Brent Simpson in response to Spirit of WeHere is a documentary on inter-species communication (which can be bought here). About a man that takes care of wild parrots... it explores how a man has come to relate deeply with another species (wild parrots living in San Fran). In particular, watch from 1 hr 8 mins to 1 hr 15 mins in the film. Those few mins to get to the heart of of how he sees his communications and relationships with the birds.
It raises some integral questions are these communications only eye-of-flesh with eye-of-flesh (when they actually happen)? Or, perhaps with some of the low level eye-of-mind with eye-of-mind (as he seems to argue... if you put what he says into an integral context)? How therefore, does one with an open-heart or with integral consciousness experience those feeling communications that animals send off to us. Moreover, how does this healthy green perspective shape the way he suggests he communicates with these parrots (As he largely seems to be comming from that value-space). Hope some of you have a watch and chime in. It doesn't just work on and with communication it also dips into exploring ways in a post-modern world to build a live a life of meaning. It's a unique documentary I found watching it to be a fun, light and rich experience.
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In 'n Out
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Katherine Konner in response to [Comment Deleted]Hi Anne,
A little red flag went up when I read .... "I also feel the pain of: What if no one hears?"
Underlying this question is, What if I don't hear myself -what I need, what is important, what the meaning is from a mystical experience? Fear manufactures a package to make you worry about what exists outside you, when really, it begins inside.
AQAL is a tool, a map, to understand how you experience self, others (including cultures and systems) and spirit. What I personally find interesting, is that you can identify where you are AND understand what you consciously haven't been aware of. You can use it to analyze your own experience outside of what you already know. How cool is that!
A mystical experience is never anything that isn't you. It's the door people search for, to what you might not yet realize. So, how do you live what you have seen ---- are you ready for reading the whole map? There seem to be many people who have worked with IT in depth who can also help you map out the mystical experience, if you want.
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Integral Communication
Posted November 10th, 2008 by BalderSchalk, Jerry, et al,
If you haven't read it yet, you might be interested in the following graduate thesis by Integral writer, Adam Leonard:
I haven't finished reading it yet, but I think it is helpful and worth studying...
Best wishes,
B.
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Thanks for the info
Posted November 10th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Integral CommunicationBalder,
Feel free to jump in here if you wish.
Jerry.
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Re: Communication and the Integral Knife
Posted November 11th, 2008 by BalderJerry,
I've really enjoyed this thread and the questions you, Schalk, and others have raised. This is a subject I've been interested in and have explored in a number of ways for awhile. If you're interested, here's a blog entry I did on potential ways Integral Theory (and other integrative models, such as Raimon Panikkar's) can contribute to the current atheist-theist discussions and debates that are raging around the New Atheists: Raimon Panikkar and the New Atheists. In particular, Panikkar has an approach he calls diatopical hermeneutics, where "diatopical" means "across spaces" -- an idea which I think is especially relevant to the question of Integral communication. Because, from an Integral perspective, we are called to recognize that, in our meaning-making, we are frequently making meaning across various spaces -- developmental, perspectival, cultural, etc. How are we to do so effectively, compassionately, intelligently? We cannot assume we all share a given reality; that our modes of meaning-making are the same for everyone. Panikkar offers a few tools for this form of inter-cultural dialogue, if you are interested in checking out my blog (or, better, his work!). What Integral brings, among other things, is a powerful lens for helping us to recognize the various types of spaces (in addition to the cultural) that we are called to navigate in our communications and our attempts to share understanding.
You have already mentioned the validity claims associated with each of the quadrant perspectives. In relation to this topic, I think I would personally benefit from doing a deeper study of Habermas' work. Habermas' writings on communicative ethics is one of the inspirations behind Wilber's four-quadrant formulation, after all... But in general, I think it is important just to point to the ethical dimension of actually making these distinctions ... of being mindful of the type of discourse we are engaged in, and not attempting to impose the norms or expectations of one mode of discourse on another, just as Schalk has pointed out. This doesn't mean that, if someone is talking objectively (truth), we shouldn't feel free to raise questions or issues that are more subjective. We can! The suggestion is not to divide ourselves up into little cubicles and never look over our playpen walls! Rather, the ethical concern is just that we try to be mindful of when we do so.
David Bohm sometimes talks about learning to develop "proprioception of thought." In normal (physical, somatic) proprioception, we naturally "track" the movements and the positions of our bodies. Sitting here, I know where my legs are, where my arms are, what they are doing, etc -- without much effort. But in thinking and talking, which are subtler exercises, we sometimes (often!) "forget" where we are. We are to some degree unconscious, unaware, of the ways we "range about" and move in our thought, the ways we cross into different perspectival territories (each of which involves its own validity claims, has its own concerns, etc), the ways we enact different realities (different perspectival horizons), and so on -- and when we are so unconscious, we tend to sew discord and confusion.
As Wilber points out, we free a paradigm by limiting it. Do we also free modes of discourse by limiting them? I think we do. Someone can make a poetic, spiritual utterance, ecstatically celebrating an interior illumination. Should this be discounted or devalued because the claim cannot be scientifically, objectively verified? People try to do this all the time -- but this is an example of quadrant confusion, which includes failure to recognize a particular mode of discourse (and its areas of concern). But similarly, we should not attempt to indiscriminately apply the ecstatic spiritual utterance, either -- treating it as an objective truth claim, giving us "empirical" information about "external"/3p reality. People try to do this all the time, too. With better AQAL awareness, better proprioception of thought and perspective-taking, perhaps we can avoid some of these abuses of our various forms of meaning-making and the confusion and misunderstanding they often lead to.
If you are interested, I just posted an old blog of mine on Integral Deep Dialogue a few moments ago in response to your inquiry. I also started a thread on the Multiplex on the subject of "conscious language evolution," looking at the limitations that may be inherent in our current forms of communication (including deep structural things like grammar) and considering how we might begin to address them, from an Integral perspective. I may post that here later too.
Best wishes,
Balder
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Autopropioception?
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Jerry Sherwood in response to Re: Communication and the Integral KnifeBalder,
Thanks for the contribution here. I have briefly looked over your blog on Integral Deep Dialogue and will sit down to read it when I can give it my full, continous, undivided attention.
In this piece you give us I particulary like the suggestion by Bohm that we develop "propioception of thought". It is rare that we are aware of our thoughts at all. And even when we are paying attention we are not usually aware of their "cosmic address", so to speak. It would be nice to inculcate, through attentiveness and knowledge, the capacity to be continually aware of where we are in thought, without having to "think" about it.
And the closing point you bring up about the value of limits in contributing to freedom is a real gem. In fact, it seems like today has been a lesson in the relationship between freedom and limitation. I have written elswhere in this thread about how knowing the limits of words frees us from their limitations. And, how knowing my own and another's limitations is to be free of bondage to those limitations.
Jerry--
It is in the clarity of Conscious Awareness that Truth is revealed.
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Re: Autoproprioception
Posted November 11th, 2008 by Balder in response to Autopropioception?Jerry,
Yes, I also like Bohm's notion. It's essentially "mindfulness," but his way of expressing it is illuminating. And AQAL, as a means of "touching base" with our many native perspectives and their associated modes of discourse, validity claims, etc, adds helpful granularity to the territory in which we deploy our mindfulness... I will have more to say about Bohm's approach in the "Part 2" blog I will be posting soon.
Looking forward to how the discussion you've initiated continues to unfold...
Best wishes,
B.
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An example
Posted November 13th, 2008 by Katherine KonnerI was listening to an interview yesterday, and this stood out:
..."Waking up to the world of emptiness and living it fully in the world of form."
This comes close to the 'clear cut view' I posted a few days ago. The world of emptiness
is the allowance for space. The world of form is the embodiment and the living it fully is
the unfolding of creativity, procreating.
This emptiness has no limits, no force other than it's own space.
Infinite possibilities while remaining empty.
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Posted November 8th, 2008 by admin