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Making vertical, structural progress

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by JMG Roswell

In Reference to:

Freedom and Fullness: Two Forms of Enlightenment

I want to make sure I understand what is being taught here. Meditation is about making state, or horizontal, progress at whatever vertical level? How does one make vertical, structural progress? Does vertical, structural progress happen naturally as a consequence of meditation, using AQAL, other Integral practices? How much control do you have over your own vertical progress? Don't know if I'm making any sense.

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Golden Shovel award

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by Prosemo

I wouldn't worry about all the garbage Wilber is running on and on about. He rambles from one idea to another, yadda-ing about verticle structures (which do exist, and means simply "the stages of realization of mind"). In Boulder CO, we used to call him "Mr. I-Know-Everything".

In short, he's a very smart and educated man who believes his own line of bullshit. (The golden shovel award is for those who need to dig themselves out of their own BS - I've won it many times, I'm proud to say.) His subconscious aim seems to be to confuse you so you think he's smarter than you. Let me assure you, he is not. Maybe if he had just succinctly said, "in every contemplative school, there is a tradition of progress. Find the school you are interested in and start at the beginning - every day. Study, contemplate and then practice." IMHO: It doesn't matter what chakra, 'supermind' or "stupid mind" you realize, it doesn't matter what stage you practice, nor does it matter tradition you practice..it only matters that you practice, hopefully under the guidance of a qualified mentor. If you watch the vid again, I think you might find, Wilber is not in that class.

Wilber's work is good to study and debate, but sort through his confusion before you do - he rambles from thought to thought, like most of us ADHD folks do. (That's why we're so attracted to meditation, LOL!)

-Prosemo

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Golden Shovel [cont.]

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by JMG Roswell in response to Golden Shovel award

I think there's a reality to what he's talking about. An amber Zen Buddhist in Japan might be able to realize very high states of consciousness, but then come off the cushion and still be possessed of various ethnographic prejudices, superstitions and beliefs. In the ancient world, that person might have been perfectly willing to go chop the head of some other guy because he belonged to a different warring clan. The vertical development, in that case, is at a lower level, while the state development is quite high.

Wilber notes in Integral Life Practice that state development influences vertical development--spend enough time in high states and your consciousness changes and therefore your vertical development might also change. I think I understand this, and it doesn't seem like total bullshit to me. At a certain point, the Zen Buddhist starts to question the wisdom of chopping off the other guy's head.

I may be answering my own initial question here. I guess vertical development can change as a result of a number of factors--state development through Spirit practices like meditation, as well as other practices like working with others, studying AQAL, a whole range of possible Integral practices. I think I get it--your vertical development is where you're operating from. Do you have the benefit of all sentient beings as your ACTUAL top concern? Of course, we all would like to think we do...

Am I on track here? Anyone?

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On Track

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by Mark DuBois (not verified) in response to Golden Shovel [cont.]

"Do you have the benefit of all sentient beings as your ACTUAL top concern?"

Yeah, you're on track and here's the groove.

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Confusing the relative with the absolute.

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by Prosemo in response to Golden Shovel [cont.]

I think my point was -not- that Wilber isn't correct, but that he bloviates. I just stumbeld into this site and I now realize this is mostly about Wilber's work, (which I find a bit convoluted).

As far as your point goes, can be answered by the difference between the relative and the absolute. My teacher, Ponlop Rinpoche has a humor point about this. "Relative man cannot sit in absolute chair" and yet, the relative can't exist. Working with others does have an effect on "vertical" growth, but, it does not mean that the worker does not alter, maintain, dissolve or create new flaws. This and other ritual practices such as meditation, contemplation, mantra, prayer etc. does "shinjang" (fully process) a person. But, the person is still a person and getting confused about practice often creates new attachments that hinder progress. (In early buddhist abhidharma this was codified as one of the "three fetters": "attachment to rites and rituals", doubt and an errant believe in an individual self.)

A writer and student of the buddhist teacher Chogyam Trungpa went to have an interview with Trungpa. He waited for hours before being sent into the teacher's office. He found Trungpa a bit drunk and was wary. But, Trungpa told him to go ahead and ask him anything he wanted. Before they were done, the writer not only had -a lot- of information to write about, but a heightened awareness of his own flaws and suggestions regarding improvements to his practice. Before he left the office, Trungpa told him one thing quite directly: "Don't confuse the teacher with the man." That stopped the writer's mind in its tracks. The relative person has little to do with the enlightened beings inside us. But, the enlightened being within us has everything to do with the relative person.

This is a rather less academic way of answering your question. Getting stuck in the "green zone" relatively, does not mean our practice is not having fruition "vertically".

Prosemo

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Relative and absolute [cont.]

Posted March 3rd, 2009 by JMG Roswell in response to Confusing the relative with the absolute.

I guess an interesting question or koan, then, is, "What is a healthy, functional sense of ego/small self/relative self?" I used to feel a tremendous amount of tension between the pull of my own ego to pursue its own aims and the desire I felt to transcend my own ego and be and experience something more. I dismissed the relative self as something nonexistent or paper-thin. "The thinker is the thought," I would say to myself. (Funny, huh?) I became dismayed as I observed myself acting in egoistic ways, thinking that this was a sign of utter selfishness and confusion. (Also a funny and silly contradiction!)

I suppose I basically agreed with Krishnamurti's assertion that there is no psychological progress. A person's brain must literally be transformed into something new by perpetually resting in a non-dual state of awareness. Only then could any kind of psychological evolution occur. Action short of this always was confused and harmful. Krishnamurti would not even say the word "I" when he spoke, only "the speaker."

As a result of my encounter, only weeks old at this point, with Wilber's work, I am starting to understand the tension between the relative and absolute selves as something natural and less problematic. If the structure of the universe is based on holons, then the structure of the self must be as well. So we are simultaneously part and whole. The part that acts as though it is ONLY a part, pretending or believing that it has no identity as the whole, is indeed acting out of confusion. But the whole that denies that it is also a part, I'm starting to believe, is just as confused.

In my opinion, Buddhists (such as myself) can easily fall into this latter camp, giving short shrift to their emotional and psychological hangups and needs, and feeling that all they have to do is rest in non-dual awareness and all their problems will be solved. In fact, if we don't take a truly integrative approach to our path, we might run into all kinds of stumbling blocks and spend years wandering around various plateaus (because we are using so much energy trying to bottle up and stay ignorant of our shadow issues, etc.) So I guess the idea of what Trungpa Rinpoche called "the man" making progress, though kind of an alien concept in Buddhism and expressed by Wilber, admittedly, in a kind of convoluted way, still does make a lot of sense. (Even if I don't!)

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Me Too, Deserving of such an award.

Posted March 4th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Golden Shovel award

Prosemo, Loved the candid analysis. Feels about right. Our ideas are useful - up to a point. But it is so easy to clutter basic truths with our own (and I do "own" my extensive part/role in that process of "bullshit") thoughts. "The perfect becomes the enemy of the good" sort of thing, if I am interpreting that saying properly. Yes, practice meditation and it will be around for application and then assimilation (into one's overall "life") sooner or later. Just do it! The rest can be, well, you said it already - "bullshit".

At the risk (no, likelihood) of adding to the pile of ideas about spirituality, I have a series of blog posts speculating about something "creation crossover". Basically, I am looking at all things as a "creation" and then seeing how we can apply the gifts/qualities/characteristics of one "creation" to another. The series started with my valuing of IL consider doing FaceBook-like social networking by mutual interests within the IL membership. Then each subgroup can support the common "gift" of the sub-group's members, and then can work on how to better share that gift to the larger IL community, so that the creation (the "gift", and all products resulting from it) can effectively crossover into the world of IL, so that we have more to offer than constantly obsessing about stages and lines, etc.

My latest installment is largely the result of my trying to dig myself out of my own bullshit, but I think it is also partially the result of sorting out ideas that don't jive with some of the IL concepts. The post is called Quad Crossover, the third in the series of Creation Crossover. Check it out if you are in a patient mood. Warning! I can guarantee that you'll detect yet more bullshit, but I'm hoping - even trusting - that there is a daisy or two growing in the pile. Here's the link to the post, if you are interested: Quad Crossing, third in the Creation Crossover Series

Darrell

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ettiquette

Posted March 4th, 2009 by Maria Clemente in response to Golden Shovel award

Prosemo:

Your judgement on Wilber is rather harsh and impolite, don´t you think?

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3 "A"s, might be helpful?

Posted March 5th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon

JMG, very good question. Not sure exactly what Ken and IL would say, but I have given independent thought to this matter elsewhere (while writing a hybrid of a conceptual and novel-like book). What I saw in my mind was 3 "A"s of learning. Access would be meditation in which you access flow, depth, etc., now and then, perhaps inspired by random events at times, such as a beautiful sunset, etc. .

Application would be when we think to use meditation/contemplation to calm down during work, or use prayer to guide us through tough relationship situations. The only difference is that the state is beginning to be applied to the horizontal plane of daily living. A little at first, more later.

Finally, Assimilation, occurs once so much access and application happens that it becomes assimilated into one's whole life. When this happens, I believe it would be correct to assume that the person moves up a stage - takes the elevator up one floor, but it requires sufficient transformation of being before the bell hop with take you there. Prior to access, application, and assimilation of the meditation, the best you can hope for is an occasional glimpse of higher levels during mystical "states", dreams, etc.

Do the 3 "A"s of learning shed any light on your good question? That's all I have. I agree with the comment that the main thing is to practice the meditation. I have found in my own life that if I access prayer and meditation in the morning, I am much more likely to be able to think to apply it to some event later in the day. If I don't regularly access it, then I am more likely to forget all about a spiritual approach to solving problems or to healing. You can't get anywhere with out access, and if you access enough, you'll probably get somewhere, even if you don't quite know how you got there! Darrell

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Thanks

Posted March 16th, 2009 by JMG Roswell in response to 3 "A"s, might be helpful?

Hi Darrell.

Thanks for the comment. (Sorry I've taken so long to respond--I've been working 24/7, which I guess is a good thing these days given the alternative.) I find the 3As concept very helpful, actually. It makes a lot of sense. I think you could expand it, if you felt like it, to other practices as well. You can access the greater energy reserves and sense of well being that result from exercise and nutition/conscious eating; initial effort or application is required for this to happen, but then a positive habit forms and this starts to become assimilated or integrated into your daily life. Maybe that's a stretch of the concept.

Thanks again!

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Not a Stretch

Posted March 18th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Thanks

Hi JMC, not a stretch at all. I see the 3 "A"s as applying to just about all learning. I witnessed it while co-facilitating an prison-based sex offender program. The participants had to first "access" a different way to live, rather than acting-out "in the shadows". The program used a lot of victim empathy stuff, which is good, but to me, it was a bit over-emphasized at times. All the motivation in the world to be compassionate and considerate may not work if the individual doesn't learn new lifestyle options - new ways. I often argued that while it is true that "Where there's a will, there's a way" (victim empathy worked on increasing the will to do no harm), it was also true that "Sometimes, when there is a way, there's a will." By this, I meant that sex offenders often greatly benifited by seeing healthier options for both daily living, and for managing early signs of risk. When you showed (and especially when I socially modeled) such "ways"/options, then many participants were more willing to let down thier defenses and admit how horribly they hurt someone else. It was as though they had to see that there was enough hope to salvage themselves, before they could "own" their wrongdoings. "Where there's a way, there's a will" represents Access (to new options).

The next step was to get them to Apply the options in daily life, via healthy coping behaviors. The relapse prevention plan included such healthy coping behaviors, whether they are used pre-emptively or used as "interventions" to reverse signs of increased risk of re-offending. Both/either the pre-emptive, or the "corrective" use of the coping options represent Applying. The more the person applies these options, the closer they are to developing them as automatic habits in an overall changed (lower risk of re-offending) "lifestyle". In the case of sex offending, we never pushed the pie-in-the-sky Assimilation stage, because it was too easy to tell oneself "I've changed. I don't need to be careful anymore". The risk of re-offending is always there, but greatly mitigated by Assimilation into the person's overall life and being - into a new lifestyle which has been thoroughly internalized, and has actually re-shaped his intentionality and his "being".

"If the 3 'A's can make it there (in Sex Offender programming, which is kinda like making it in a big and challenging city) then it can make it anywhere". New York, New York!

Darrell

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