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Needs to go farther into self-critique

I think this is a great dialogue and, in my opinion, doesn't go far enough. Or perhaps he was only couching things gently.

One thing he only seemed to touch upon tangentially was the over-estimation of one's own development. While he mentioned the over-estimation of one's own stage of development in the sense of "I'm teal so teal will solve everything", he didn't talk about the tendency to say "I like to read Ken Wilber, therefore I'm teal." Related to this is the difference between the Self-System and the Cognitive Line. We may, with proper support, be able to understand post/modern ideas, but our center-of-gravity, or our self-system may be wallowing at the conventional or even pre-conventional waves. I think there's a real tendency for this over-estimation in the integral community.

I think there's also the first-tier "allergy" that has been written about - the tendency to abandon responsibility and engagement with the conventional world because it is "uselessly first-tier." We can't get out of the reality that we live in a first-tier representative democracy. We have to deal with it and engage with it.

And just as we are likely to misinterpret our suffering as transpersonal - we are also likely to misinterpret our social, political, and economic ideas as 2nd tier. I've seen more than one presenter claim to give a "2nd tier" approach to one problem or another and to me it just seemed to be, at best, a conventional or rational analysis, or, at-worst, a nonsensical reflection of their own fears and fantasies. Being 2nd Tier is no excuse for incomprehensibility.

After all - how does one counter the claim to higher development? "You just don't understand because you aren't at my level." Seems like an invitation to corruption to me.

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Self titled

 That's why I think sometimes that calling yourself second tier or integral is only slightly less arrogant than calling yourself a master or enlightened.  I think perhaps it's a term we should let other people give us as a complement rather pretending it's a label we could actually be objective about when it comes to ourselves.  It's possible, but not likely.  

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There's no such thing as an integral human being

There is no question that Integral Life's community is a broad cross-section of psychographic staging.  This is neither here nor there.  But the real ethical, and indeed just intellectually honest, way to proceed in this discourse is to stop using higher altitude as something that is "real" in a fixed, pre-existing way, or as a proxy for goodness, or in any way that is divorced from the methodological disclaimers that need to accompany all developmental discussions. 2nd tier is a barely-useful myth, and perhaps not even.  There is technically no such thing as an "integral" human being.

There are only linguistic performances when it comes to the developmental metrics that are (ab)used to specify developmental complexity.  The moment you extend a given linguistic performance - e.g., one that might indeed evidence integral-aperspectival complexity - to a generalized account of identity you have generally over-extended.  Whether that is a bad thing or not depends on the user.  The measure of a linguistic performance applies only to that performance and is subject to environmental, contextual and other supporting and inhibiting constraints (e.g., was I tired?).  So the notion of "center of gravity" is useful as a descriptive heuristic device to support self-understanding, compassion for self and others, cognitive development, etc.  And it is probably true that given a certain result on a developmental-ego assessment which is trying to ascertain the complexity of my self-system as indicated by a specific linguistic performance (i.e., I answer a series of questions and perhaps articulate my reasoning behind my answers), that I have a data point that will likely lie within spitting distance of my average self-system under normal conditions.  But those conditions change all the time and the way I show up can vary widely based on the context and environmental conditions.  So COG needs a huge disclaimer: "This COG should only be used for edutainment purposes."  And you're right to point out that cognitive complexity and self-systems are two very different ways of thinking about development. 

For people just starting out trying to understand the nature of integral-dialectical thinking, we do them a disservice.  We need to stop thinking of integral as somehow specifying the general status of a human being, which only conflates the term "integral" as derived from its methodological roots and extends it to general account of the status of people in a community whose name is Integral Life.  These cousins don't share a bloodline.

--

Robb Smith

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Re: Needs to go farther...

While he mentioned the over-estimation of one's own stage of development in the sense of "I'm teal so teal will solve everything", he didn't talk about the tendency to say "I like to read Ken Wilber, therefore I'm teal."


Or turquoise, or higher!  Wilber has unfortunately contributed to this in the past, since he's written or stated on more than one occasion that, if you read and appreciate his books, you can be assured you are 'second tier.'  Some fans may have taken this as an official confirmation of their membership among the elite 2% of humankind.  Based on my own interactions and work with people who 'read Wilber,' I am quite skeptical of such a claim and am glad a phase of more honest (and grounded, tentative, nuanced) self-assessment is emerging in the community.

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yes

John, I agree that these are real risks that you mention and they are major turn-offs for many people who begin to enter this study. I like that you, Balder, Robb (I especially appreciate these comments), and others have spoken to this in this, I'll say, critical way.

I know that in the specific context of the SCTi-MAP that I took, I came out looking way more integral than I am in my actual visible life in all it's variation and in my greatly variable inner life that lurches and bumbles, struggles and suffers probably at every 'first tier' possibility. How we behave and experience life and ourselves does seem so context dependent and emergent.

This conversation between Ken and Roger really was full. I was there for Roger's presentation, but that night I felt very tired and slightly overwhelmed from all of the conference activities and stimulation that I couldn't take much in. This paper's re-run-through and this current discussion, I appreciated so much. I'm not sure how deeply embodied my hearing of it still is - and it mostly felt quite compelling and sweet to me.

ambo