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I can't do it

Posted March 4th, 2011 by Jonathan Cobb in Bigotry

Transcend and include. Transcend and include. Everyone's partly right. Embrace your shadow. Look at it from the other's perspective.

That's what Integral's all about it. But I can't do it. Further compounding that fact, my Lord and Savior demands that we love our enemies and forgive one another. But I can't do it. I've been seeing so much bigotry lately. So much ignorance about other people. So much petty bullshit. Such xenophobic demonization. Then today I saw this video:

These people have so dehumanized our Muslim brothers and sisters that they are shouting down children. They have reduced them to vermin. I'm sure there's some shadow element here for me to integrate. In fact, these protestors' behavior dehumanizes them in my eyes, so I'm sure that shadow is just barely under the surface. But I can't help it. I hate them. I loathe them with every inch of my being. They are monsters to me.

I pray that at some point I can develop the faith and compassion to love these people as God loves them. But I'm not there yet. I am still in the realm of good vs. evil, and I cannot think of such barbarism as anything but evil.

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Politics & Religion

Posted March 4th, 2011 by Justin Manchester

Hi Jonathan,

Look closely.... Recognize that the freedom to practice one's religion, is acceptable and worthy of defense, but if those 'religious people' feel that their laws and conceptions of 'divine law' are universally applicable, and will kill in the name of their god to enforce them upon all.... then I will simply have to do anything I can to stop those people from doing so.

Human rights must be emphasized, but the reality of extremists must be dealt with in no 'uncertain' terms. Is this not the actual unpleasant decision one must ultimately make regarding this issue?

Peace,

Justin

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Uncertain Terms

Posted March 4th, 2011 by Jonathan Cobb in response to Politics & Religion

Your post seems to accept implicitly josef's characterization of all of Islam as an inherently ethnocentric, terrorist, imperialist religion. But anyone who has even the slightest familiarity with Integral and Spiral Dynamics should be able to understand that this is not something particular to Islam, but rather to the Amber level of development. Also recognize that in spite of the propaganda that josef keeps spewing, this was a charity event. Full stop. Even given the controversial nature of a couple of the speakers, they were not there to advocate a global caliphate or jihad against the West. They were there to promote their charity work. Whatever you think of the speakers, the people going to that event were not there to chant "Death to America." And yet these protesters treated them as if they were Bin Laden himself.

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From Within.....

Posted March 10th, 2011 by Justin Manchester in response to [Comment Deleted]

Greetings Josef,

First, if it were up to me, I would have a universal 'forgetful' sleep (like Dorothy and her escorts in the Wizard of OZ) silently and stealthily fall upon the entire human race (with the exception of you and a few other's of course) and we could possibly set about creatively modifying all the "holy books" to provide unmistakable guidance regarding "Gods" real intentions and commandments relating to human interaction....

Or better still, let's just eliminate this "conveyor-belt of religion" altogether and when everyone wakes up, maybe they could just have breakfast and go for a nice walk with the dog of their choice..... But since that is apparently 'out of the question', lets look together....

It seems obvious that "bad theology" has tremendous influence over quite literally, millions, if not billions of human beings, and in this discussion we are looking at Islam, so I am going straight to it; Must not the change itself come from "within" a religion itself? Is this not the most direct and effective route to sustained influential activity, within the realm of religious doctrinal constructs? After all - "outsiders" and "infidels" are eschewed and have no influence within the community of the 'blessed'....

Would the 'way' not best be paved by the most 'enlightened' leadership within Islam itself? Leaders within the Islamic communities all over this globe should be shouting from the roof-tops regarding their disdain and absolute abhorrence of violence itself; with emphasis placed on the individuals own "egoic jihad".....This would be quite effective, if resolutely practiced! Yes?

I heard a portion of a radio program on NPR today, indicating that the news media is not providing enough coverage here in the U.S. about many of the Imams who are speaking out against violence, as well as Muslims that are providing information about fellow Muslims to various law enforcement agencies, to stop terrorist actions....

A few paragraphs at a time....

Your turn....

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Posted March 11th, 2011 by admin in response to From Within.....

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View From A Room....

Posted March 11th, 2011 by Justin Manchester in response to [Comment Deleted]

...."apperantly you haven´t read all my post s otherwise you would know that the asharíte theology dominating sunni thought since 800 years see the koran as god -equal ,so nobody can change a word , if he does ,he is automatically a critziser,a doubter, and they are heretics and so punishable by death".

I don't need to read all of your posts to understand the dangers and horrors of religious fundamentalism, regardless of it's origin.... These are all interesting historical 'facts', but we are returned once again to the double-bind of religious dogma and those whose views are informed by the traditional and radical interpretation of their own "holy books".

"I do not a agree with you smoothing it over and say all religions are wrong ,lets get rif of them. i feel religion is valid and especially the higher versions are very usefull. the conveyor belt is also usefull and in the vajrayana inplace since a 1000 years".

What! I thought you were an "Ironist" and would see the humorous absurdity in this view? How could I possibly be 'serious' with such statements, but I do see "conveyors" as quite limited, since I have been "conveyed" myself - they tend to 'stockpile' that which they are conveying. Religions are not "wrong", but they can become quite exclusive in their views, and thus become, at a certain stage of development, impediments to continuing growth and understanding. I also think it is quite useful to differentiate between the use of the word "religion" and that which usually has religious 'implications' - typically referred to as "Spirit".... But it's all just fingers pointing to the moon.... Yes?

"your position is the euroepan leftliberal wing position , the green meme one, and we can see here in europe what that does".

Wrong - I don't know how you could have even come away with such a view, based on my brief comments on this thread, and please kindly ask me what my position is, before asserting "my position"....

"....i personally for years had exactly your position of the good vs the bad imams , this was before i looked in depth into this religion"....

Again, you have not understood my position at all.... And, when you say "this religion" you are making a "monolithic" statement about a religion with billions of adherents, which utterly fails to acknowledge the nuanced differentiation occurring within the actual individual members.

Regardless, your perspective regarding Islam is quite understandable to me and I have grave concerns when I see attempts to infiltrate both the political and legislative bodies of any governments; but I have already made my essential position quite clear in both of my posts to Jonathan....I would respectfully suggest you read them again, because they are most assuredly "out of the green zone".... though incorporating some of it's values, specifically religious freedom and tolerance.

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good post

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