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Do the US news pundits speak for us?
Be this another wave to ride, or what have you, shall we allow some people to speak for the all of us in these concerns of human torture? I say no, and if my perspective does indeed hold sway to the possibility of releasing another's pain, then I say join the existing process and show that humanity and compassion does exist even in circumstances that threaten our underlying security.
"HEY AMERICANS, The pundits blame you for Bush and Cheney's torture policies"
Is this who we are? Are we the people, those of us who stood against the torture process, going to lie down like sheep because someone told us to move on? Can we not be both peacful and act as adults to children who manipulated the rules on their own accord, thus further breaking the rules of humanitarian behaviour?
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I agree.
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to [Comment Deleted]Instead of petition signing and branding yet another piece of paper with your nomenclature to what end, how about just sitting and practice Tonglen or other some such meditative practice that puts one's feet firmly in as many other shoes as possibly imaginable.
There is nothing so scary, so horrific, so devastatingly catastrophic inward or outward that one moment of stillness cannot solve it. Instantly.
Sit. Be still a moment...
Erik
--
"We're Philosophers! We demand rigidly defined lines of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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I disagree
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Christophe Witz in response to [Comment Deleted]It is not wrong to speak out for what one thinks is right. A petition is a democratic, legitimate attempt to influence political processes. Nobody gets hurt, nobody needs to get on the street if he doesn't want to. Just some people expressing their agreement on a particular matter. I say bring on the petitions!
Sometimes it is not enough to sit on the cushion and meditate the problems away. Some of these nasty things dare to be still there after the return from Nowhere Land. D'uh! File under: S like 'Sad but true'.
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I know it flys in the face of logic...
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to [Comment Deleted]...to seemingly do nothing. But nothing is exactly what would solve the problem. You NEED do nothing. Resist nothing. Accept everything. Surrender completely. Your strength is in your vulnerability not your pen. Sometimes no action is right action. Surrender...
Big heart brings fire and compassion to Big Mind.
Be well,
Erik
--
Please feel free to join my "One Moment of Stillness" project. Looking forward to seeing you there!
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Yes, but...
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Christophe Witz in response to I know it flys in the face of logic...I'm not talking about logics, I'm talking about politics. And I still think it's not enough to meditate to solve political problems.
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And that, good Sir...
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to I know it flys in the face of logic......is 100% perfectly OK. Isn't that wonderful? I do apologize for not being very politically oriented in my reponses. My shadow I guess. Or is it? I just do not really "feel" a pull toward things political albeit I do love to study social issues. Weird. When things become political, I can't help but feel cynical, sarcastic and condescending. I've always looked toward the esoteric for social solutions. Looked inside for concerns outside. So far I'm doing OK. When I look at things socially, I have a tendency to look at it from an artistic, cultural and religious/spiritual viewpoint. Cultural Anthropology mixed with Religious Studies and Philosophy = hours of endless fun for me. Show me anything Marx, Reagan or Limbaugh and I fall into a deep coma. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...... Oh well. We all have different strengths and gifts to bring to the Integral Table. I appreciate yours! And I am learning from it!
Be well,
Erik
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Please feel free to join my "One Moment of Stillness" project. Looking forward to seeing you there!
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structure applied consistantly
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Kamm-- what chakra are we operating from when our chief concern is for our personal or ethnic security?
Are we indeed even in our application of the rules here, when we advocate for the torture of humans to benefit our security needs, yet decline from upholding the document, our Constitution, which was drafted for our security also, the security of a representational government? We allow for torture of humans who might bomb us, but not for prosecution of other humans of our grouping who break other, yet still important rules of acceptable and legislatively drafted conduct?
Do the pundits speak for you? Did you by default vote for torture by not speaking out against it?
I know there is another thread which went through a similar discussion, however, this one asks about who speaks for you.
And, as another tangent...
What actions are deemed appropriate from an integral perspective? We live in structures of red, orange, green,maybe blue.
Do we sit on our mats in tonglen, ONLY, as a measure toward relieving peoples pain? Pain is useful? by someones measure...?
or, is it more of an all quadrant, all level approach? Do we not uphold the cements that is designed to bind the structure of given operation together?
Just askin.
oh, and please don't tonglen for me. I want to hold my pain, the better to understand my brethren. Thanks anyway.
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who would I be without that thought? a call to the collective to let go the...
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Kamm in response to [Comment Deleted]"Would you torture the guy who kidnapped your daughter in hopes of getting her back? "
I don't make my decisions based on the worst possible scenario. I deal with the is of my reality. My reality is that I have a choice to make based on what I see as the greatest way forward.
When you say "we" as in "are responsible for the security of the innocents," who is that we? No one is responsible for my security or that of my children other than myself, and in addition, my husband for my kids and himself. I did not choose to be born in a country who makes its income from a defense perspective. My choice is to live in a country where war is not taken lightly, that it is entered fully consciously and under no other option. Torture of prisoners is an extension of that "miscarriage of pre-emptive striking without a cause..."
I can see a long history of fear mongering in this country that has kept the defense industry richly in the black. The commie under every bed still rings true with a revision of "a terrorist at every airport."
To further the argument: Every child on a bike must wear a helmet. No. In my driveway, they don't. I will not destroy the spontaneity of their experience and plant the seeds of doubt of "their ability to remain upright" into their psyche.
Are we afraid of dying, or of our children dying so much so that we give up the "sense of inner security, and faith of Spirit" for a compromise with our morals? Consider the fear programming that is so much a part of this culture. Then maybe figure out what voice is speaking for you.
You can call me pious. Maybe I am, but, you don't know what i have personally experienced, and i don't know what you have lived through and transcended. For all you know, I may have served as a navy seal in my prior work.
Given the choice, I would advocate for piety on this one, rather than inflicting pain. But, as I tend to walk the wire without a net, maybe I attract the better circumstance. Fly or fall.
I don't intend any coercion to act, or to belittle. My words may be succinct but there is my earnest desire to move culture away from fear based responses. I hope we see where we are coming from. If not Integral people, then who?
BTW, the others i refer to are Bush and Cheney. You're using a system of governance on one hand, by advocating for the use of torture, but maybe not on the other hand if they are not investigated for their infractions against the following amendment to the US Constitution:
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Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Perspective from 2005
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Yes
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Kamm in response to [Comment Deleted]In respectful rebuttal, i would say that we cannot even begin to predict anything. Call it philosophy if you wish, and yes, children have an instinctual knowledge about fire. But here is the kicker: My kids are more frightened of the noise from the fire alarm than an actual fire. They know what to do about fire, but not how to kill that ear piercing noise. They get distracted from the real danger.
We are teaching kids to be scared all of the time by our example of buying the popular cultures need to be warm and cozy.reality goes on, but as it arises, that is how I deal with it. I see that as practicing presence.
Good morals to me means being present in my own world, attending to my own affairs, my country attending to its OWN affairs, and yes, then people from other worlds would not hate us for our meddling. We might not even be a blip on their radar screen. I see that as our country practicing presence.
Our infiltration in the Middle East gave birth to Bin Laden. If we suck our tentacles back in from there, and attend to ourselves for a while, might we rest easier at night? I think so.
Ever read the book Winesburg, Ohio? I find a lot of common sense within and also outside the "spiritual" bibles of organized religions. The people in Winesburg were grotesques because they had their noses in everybody's business. I see it as an 'i' and a "we' application this living of ones own truth. See? Its evident even here as I try and share my perspective. Maybe I am ugly for it.
cheers, and good night, dear.
--
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We are bastards
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Kamm in response to [Comment Deleted]Indeed we are bastards. The shadow of the US is that we think we can do whatever we want as long as we pat some kid on the head someplace else.
when was the last time you listened to the stories of some of the military members speak of the joy they took in dropping cows from a helicopter at 30 ft? or the love they have of shooting up villages? These people are friends of mine.
No one takes anyone seriously when they feed with one hand and kill with the other.
I suspect that you don't see the Palestinian perspective over there. Imagine getting kicked off your property because someone said they owned it 1000 years ago. (sshhh don't tell the native americans or we are all screwed...) Ever read "The Haj?"
This is my opinion, but I think we have played patty cake with Israel long enough. Like many, they hold onto the past, and feel some entitlement for what is not presently arising. But, now that they have a bomb, we have to make sure they don't use it...
Imagine thinking out of the box. Imagine not necessarily parroting what the media and mainstream try and feed us. There is some perspective for us all. 
--
I think I need some ZZZZ. incoming... blatt .
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integration of different, sometimes-competing perspectives
Posted May 15th, 2009 by David Marshall in response to We are bastardsKamm, what are you proposing here? Also, what is the Israeli perspective on this? We need to balance out the interests of the two groups, right? How do you propose doing that?
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integration
Posted May 15th, 2009 by Kamm in response to integration of different, sometimes-competing...I have no proposal, per se, except maybe apply some techniques to the culture in question. Maybe we can work it together.
-What kind of shadow, if any, do you see in the Israeli collective?
Perhaps an 'i' might have to have some time with people from the culture to gain perspective or be widely read; give it a shot in any event...
-What are the interests of the Israelis? As an established sovereignty, to maintain a border. Anything else?
Those of the Palestinians, are also to maintain what land they live on and not lose any more neighborhoods.
What is common sense? hold each side to accepted rules of conduct? Hold a border that was negotiated? That is my take. Any other nuggets from y'all?
What are the accepted rules of conduct herein? Anyone?
Also, Do we, here in the US, have an objective perspective on the middle east, and if not, what is the color or shape of the lens that we see the region through?
I feel any solution to these issues must begin with these kinds of informed platforms.
--
Cheers, K
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shadows grow so long before my eyes...
Posted May 16th, 2009 by Kamm in response to [Comment Deleted]Anne,
I am going to go slow on this, the basis of my perspective is based on histories of the fallout of the Jacobite Uprising and Highland Clearances in the late 1600-1700's, the New World pioneer movement and resultant extermination/relocation of the Native Americans, and the Jewish Pogroms of Russia, and the Nazi Holocaust.
These are histories that i feel are relevant to seeing the shadows of culture as they exist today.
Let me say one thing about the phrase "war on terror." It is a phrase coined by George Bush and now unused by the current administration. I feel this is a good move, on the part of the Obama administration, as war on a concept is a rather fuzzy concept itself, leading to fuzzy and ill defined possibilites of address. Here is a take on that phrase: Coined Terms and carved paths to lead people to think in one way or another...
Later, sister.
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of sheep and humans
Posted May 16th, 2009 by Kamm in response to [Comment Deleted]Anne, and All,
Perhaps you were attempting to point out the fact that I have not as of yet mentioned the word "Muslim?" Please recognize that I have not. I have deliberately stayed away from the current popular paradigm of thinking about the conflicts in that region, in an attempt to illustrate how the popular thinking and lexicon has evolved.
I will say that i come from the belief that terrorism is not representative of either faith, either Judaism, or Islam. Or that because one or more people in a group are particularly inhumane, all of the other members of the group are likewise inhumane.
However, it does seem that some members of groups operate like sheep herds, following a leader, following whether that leader is jumping over a fence or off a cliff. If the sheep are jumping off cliffs, is it encumbent on the other sheep, who might see the madness, to stop those sheep for the sake of the herd? Be careful to consider that I am not choosing any particular group for this analogy: I can see it in both, and here in the US.
In full respect to your sensibilities, I don't want to discuss the "war on terrorism", as such. I would prefer to draw parallels in our history and let us discern if there is any value in that, in looking for the shadows of a culture.
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helmets, seatbelts
Posted May 14th, 2009 by David Marshall in response to who would I be without that thought? a call to the...
Hi Kamm,
Kamm: To further the argument: Every child on a bike must wear a helmet. No. In my driveway, they don't. I will not destroy the spontaneity of their experience and plant the seeds of doubt of "their ability to remain upright" into their psyche.
What if their bicycle were to malfunction or some other kid who wasn't as good a bicycle rider crashed into them?
I think most people can stay on their bicycles after a little learning (mountain biking aside, where even very experienced riders can hit a rock or a root and fall off their bicycles on occassion), but when there are lots of riders out there it becomes a different matter.
Some riders, or drivers, might be drunk, or getting too old to drive, too young, or upset and distracted. Wet or icy roads are also potentially dangerous for riders of all skill levels. Having kids wear helmets simply reflects an awareness of all the many things that could happen when they ride their bicycles.
David
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if there are drunks
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Kamm in response to helmets, seatbeltsDavid,
If there are drunks and old people in my drive way running my kids over, i have bigger problems than helmets
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maybe i think this way cause i didn't wear one and i am just fine.... 
To rest your worry: they wear them when they go on the road; its the law here.
However,
What if...What if I didn't "What If?" who would i be without that worry?
George Carlin, bless his soul, and I share similar take on the society we live in...
Weeeelll... its been fun All, but my beeper just went off... ciao
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what births us
Posted May 17th, 2009 by Kamm in response to structure applied consistantly
We all have our shadows. Personally, I have an affinity for worshiping Idols, Zardoz for example... 
All pseudo kidding aside, I think someone said something along the lines of “it's impossible not to have shadow issues” if we are running operating system- human/1.01 or newer versions.
My shadow has put me in some interesting and thoughtful circumstances, to be sure.
My ancient family history, I think, reveals some of the shadow.
This family's history, as researched by my sister and myself, tells a story of a swindled-displaced Highland Scot, who moved to Northern Ireland as a plantationist in the 1600's. It also tells a story of the other branch, which did not leave, until after the Highland Clearances following the Jacobite Uprisings of the 1700's.
My shadow might come in the form of being unable to identify with the parties who were in charge of putting them off of their lands.
So, they leave Scotland, one, call him A, goes to Ireland first and lives on lands which previously were deeded to another family, a catholic family. Later he leaves those “Troubles” and emigrates to the Americas, to settle in what is now called the state of Maine.
It's 1718. They moved into the Casco Bay area to settle it, and imagine! The natives were not pleased they had people coming to live on the lands of their birth. They fought with the natives, some brothers died, and eventually they did settle there, having a family.
Their children were part of the march across the continent in the pioneer movement. In the Minnesota- Dakota region, they settled for a while, one man becoming a sheriff who was known for his “harsh pioneer justice.” The story goes on, passed down from a distant and common relative, that the land acquisition of the local times were based on soliciting slaves from the south, and granting them title to lands. However, an interesting trend emerged; we might call it “make your X on the line, and soon you're not seen again.” Those properties somehow became part of the large landowners holdings.
So, we, us pioneers, fleeing persecution, came here to the America's, stole land from the Indians first, then swindled and killed former slaves to enlarge our holdings. This after it was done to us on the other side of the Atlantic.
I actually was given a photograph of an example of the “pioneer justice” in action. You almost don't see the rope going over the side of the bridge. I wonder how long it took the photographer... I digress...
I never learned about the Highland Clearances in the history books that my school required me to read. What I was taught was the wonderful things about the pioneer movement. The word pioneer summing up the image of an adventurous spirit, going out to surmount the 'wilds'.
We were fed as children the concept of the Indians being savages, in a similar manner perhaps that some people see certain tribes in the Middle East conflict as “terrorists.” At one point, I had to ask, who wrote these textbooks? Who is paving the tracks for my thinking? Traditionally, its the victors of a conflict.
I know, we are beyond using the word terrorists, to describe the Palestinians, and other Muslim groups. But, for others, who don't see the machinations of cultural programming, i think its important to point out that there just might be an agenda which is advanced by perpetuating a myth.
I see some folks holding tight to the myths, some selling the myths, and some accepting the myth at face value, being to busy or otherwise to introspect the broad historical and psychological components.
But, knowing what we have learned here about shadow and colored lenses, can we not see our own American heritage favoring the side of the pioneer?
Are the stakes yet high enough for us to try and shed light where we think there is a huge dark shadow?
There is another large shadow which mixes into the equation over there. That is of the persecuted. We were persecuted, and used that platform to advance our agenda for generations, to the point of gluttony. Our tracks were laid, like the railroad themselves, and our children followed along the path.
Bin Laden. Is it possible that he might be of the Ilk of some similar warrior of history? I won't try and parallel him to any specific leader. This is one place where interior consideration is better used, due to the recency of events. The question arises, how did Bin Laden and others like him emerge?
The larger point I am trying to show is that I can see both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. To a point. There has been a structure trying to work for decades. Disregard for the structure, and for the humanity of the other side, creates an exasperating circumstance, and born are the extremes, squeezed out of a pressure cooker.
Perhaps we can come up with another potjie here: a pressure cooker potjie, with a slow steam relief valve. Slow cooking, a dangerous kind, a difficult topic, but possibly necessary given the mixing of the levels of development of the human operating systems with advanced mechanisms of destruction.
I believe that the heat needs to be turned down.
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Family History
Posted May 17th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to what births usKamm, you have conveyed so many important points in a way which moved me deeply.
Cultural programming is something we often avoid looking at, because in the looking we are faced with the history of those closest to us.
Only this week was I given an account from one branch of my family that I had not heard before. My greatgrandfather’s Hugenot ancestors starting out in Stellenbosch in 1688 farmed their way across the country. After three years as a prisoner of war in Ceylon, my greatgrandfather returned to farming and was married. I now have a photo of the convoy of the family moving from the Free State to the Transvaal. By grandmother, born in 1906, the eldest of his children, was a baby at the time and was to grow up ploughing the fields after school and working on the kraals which barely kept the lions out.
In a sense, I made peace with my “ouma” (granny) this week. There were many things about her that I did not understand as a child, and only as I learnt this week where she came from, did I begin to understand her and gain an appreciation for her life.
Which brings me to the point you raised. To what extent are our lives, our lives? Do we realize to what extent we walk the cultural tracks that have been laid for us? By looking at our history and facing the huge shadows that are thereby revealed it is suddenly no longer so easy to point fingers at other cultures or other nations.
Marilyn Hamilton in “Integral City” talks about the need to take care of yourself, take care of each other and take care of the place. This can surely be applied to not only individuals, but also to cultures and nations.
We are often quick to judge the other and the place, and too easily forget the self.
Just as America needs to face its history so does South Africa.
South Africa is still, for instance, dealing with land reform as it attempts to bring about restitution (restoring land ownership or compensating those forced off land during white rule), redistribution (mainly of agricultural land , to redress the discriminatory colonial and apartheid policies) and land tenure reform (which seeks to secure tenure for all South Africans).
History reveals, that atrocities were carried out all in countries all over the world, by the very people who had been forced to flee from their own countries. The pattern just repeats itself over and over again until it is faced by those individuals (or cultures, or nations), brave enough to face their past, accept it and then want to change.
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Posted May 14th, 2009 by admin