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Therefore, Be Consciousness

Posted May 24th, 2011 by Ken Wilber in Integral Post

People typically feel trapped by life, trapped by the universe, because they imagine that they are actually in the universe, and therefore the universe can squish them like a bug. This is not true. You are not in the universe; the universe is in you.

The typical orientation is this: my consciousness is in my body (mostly in my head); my body is in this room; this room is in the surrounding space, the universe itself. That is true from the viewpoint of the ego, but utterly false from the viewpoint of the Self.

If I rest as Witness, the formless I-I, it becomes obvious that, right now, I am not in my body, my body is IN my awareness. I am aware of my body, therefore I am not my body. I am the pure Witness in which my body is now arising. I am not in my body, my body is in my consciousness. Therefore, be consciousness.

If I rest as Witness, the formless I-I, it becomes obvious that, right now, I am not in this house, this house is IN my awareness. I am the pure witness in which this house is now arising. I am not in this house, this house is in my consciousness. Therefore, be consciousness.

If I look outside this house, to the surrounding area—perhaps a large stretch of earth, a big patch of sky, other houses, roads and cars—if I look, in short, at the universe in front of me—and if I rest as the Witness, the formless I-I, it becomes obvious that, right now, I am not in the universe, the universe is IN my awareness. I am the pure Witness in which this universe is now arising. I am not in the universe, the universe is in my consciousness. Therefore, be consciousness.

It is true that the physical matter of your body is inside the matter of the house, and the matter of the house is inside the matter of the universe. But you are not merely matter or physicality. You are also Consciousness as Such, of which matter is merely the outer skin. The ego adopts the viewpoint of matter, and therefore is constantly trapped by matter—trapped and tortured by the physics of pain. But pain, too, arises in your consciousness, and you can either be in pain, or find pain in you, so that you surround pain, are bigger than pain, transcend pain, as you rest in the vast expanse of pure Emptiness that you deeply and truly are.

So what do I see? If I contract as ego, it appears that I am confined in the body, which is confined in the house, which is confined in the large universe around it. But if I rest as Witness—the vast, open, empty consciousness—it becomes obvious that I am not in the body, the body is in me; I am not in this house, the house is in me; I m not in the universe, the universe is in me. All of them are arising in the vast, open, empty, pure, luminous Space of primordial Consciousness, right now and right now and forever right now.

Therefore, be Consciousness.

Ken Wilber

Ken Wilber is the most widely translated academic writer in America, with 25 books translated into some 30 foreign languages, and is the first philosopher-psychologist to have his Collected Works published while still alive. Wilber is an internationally acknowledged leader and the preeminent scholar of the Integral stage of human development, which continues to gather momentum around the world. His many books, all of which are still in print, can be found at Amazon.com.

These are some of the most important and insightful conversations Ken Wilber has ever recorded. Featuring the most cutting-edge theory, the most intimate stories, and the most meaningful applications of Integral thought to our lives and to our world, you will not find spiritual conversations as intelligent and as sophisticated anywhere else in the world.

"This Integral Spirituality series stands out as one of my favorite conference series that I've ever been involved in. Not only did it give us a chance to really dive into Integral theory and practice with people who know my work so well, but it allowed me to connect with our members and listen to some of the most extraordinary stories that I've ever heard, which has been very gratifying for me personally. If you really want to see how deep the integral spiritual vision goes, you won't want to miss this." - Ken Wilber

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Thank you Ken!

Posted May 25th, 2011 by steven martini

These are awesome pointing out instructions. It really is a gift to read Ken's words and feel into the experience he describes.

However, I can't help but wonder, how do we know that what this points to is the actual case of awareness?

It also could be described a semantic shift, a re-framing method, and an acting class exercise that compels one to live as if, as opposed to as is.

Galileo needed to build a telescope to bring Jupiter closer to his awareness. No matter how much he might have meditated, he would never see the moons in it's orbits, or the red spot, and know nothing of the true nature of the gas giant.

Now, it is true, according to his own words, that Galileo recieved the idea of building his telescope, after being illuminated by 'divine Grace'. Whatever that means, his interior reached out deeper into his exterior, taking the steps to craft a tool that brought closer something that was once too far away to fathom.

Awareness doesn't limit itself to vision as a sense, but feeling the rings of Saturn won't occur until we build a craft that can take us there, and even then, what we touch close up will be a surprise: the granularity of rock and ice clusters is nothing like the smooth sleek halo it appears to be from afar.

We can bring it closer to us using vision, or we can move closer to it using touch. The other senses tell us other things as well. But the closest we get to clarity occurs in the integration of all and even then we don't really fully get the deepest widest view of things.

I'd like to believe that all the space in the universe is actually the broth of a soup we experience as awareness - that it condenses and individuates and imprisons itself in the human body mind only to free itself via grace, inquiry, meditation, or death. I can look at the universe and see stars as spheres of light held in the observation of space.

But this is coming from a mind body born of the earth, which is, in and of itself, a different kind of receiver of light: one that, like Saturns rings, upon closer inspection, is actually individual chunks of matter, which orbit in clusters, forming families, and tribes, and nations, of Life.

Thank you for inspiring this reflection.

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Copernicus

Posted May 26th, 2011 by steven martini in response to [Comment Deleted]

Schalk-

"what is the form of knowing, what is the evidence process, that you are hoping to use to know the "actual case" of anything."

Yes the physical exterior is at least part what I am getting at here, since, well the planet Saturn doesn't exist in my interior unless I witness it in the exterior.

(The Greek Titan Saturn, however, might exist in my mind, but the mythic archtype was told to me by those that came before me, whose words I read about in the exterior)

And these wonderful pointing out instructions by Ken do not really yield any specifics in regards to what expanding awareness outward and upwards can witness, other than a beautiful sense off 'not me-ness'.

For example, while I don't think these instructions are meant to yield the following results, but lets say if this exercise is practiced every day (maybe all day every day) and it resulted in the witness developing some form of actual 'remote viewing' - then one could in fact 'see' the rings of Saturn (from the interior, without the aid of an exterior spyglass) and that perhaps the viewing could be further refined to move closer to Saturn's rings and reveal what appeared at first to be the smooth orbital disks as being actual clusters of rocks and ice.

This could only be verified by an exterior device (satellite) launched to take a close up photo. Or another adept remote viewer describing a similar discovery.

"Integral is saying that there are at least 8 primary processes involving perspectives, each of which are equally valid."

Equally Valid - this makes me think of the Copernican revolution, in which the Heliocentric model of the Solar System supplanted the Earthcentric model.

Can it be said that the Sun revolving around the Earth, as it does actually appear to do everyday from our human vantage on the surface, is a valid perspective, even tho we now know it's flat out wrong? (and the earth is flat out not flat even tho it might appear to be?!)

Maybe it is valid. Copernicus' view has no effect on my daily activities. It might effect my interior sense of place in the universe, it might shake my grounded sense of the universe revolving around me, and this might make me want to stop chopping wood and carrying water and cry out in anguish at the trick of perception the gods (or lack of gods) have played on me. But unless I lay there and wallow and die, I still gotta get up and get back to living. Chopping wood and carrying water must occur whether the sun orbits me or I orbit it.

Did post-Copernican zen masters take it upon themselves to embody a universe in which the sun is center? Did this change the way they chopped wood, boiled water, made tea, loved their wives and children and tried to make a better world to live in?

There must be many more paradigm shifts ready to occur in human perception. Is Integral one of them? I know I am nowhere near any level or tier or state to say that it has effected my life in any more way that copernicus has, in the wonder it evokes of 'wow' what else don't I know about what I see.

Granted, I do not really think the point of Ken's words here is to witness any exterior evidence of Saturns rings, rather it is to loosen up the tightening grip and stress our contracted self causes. My original question stems at the claim that this expansion is actually 'sprit' and that the space of the universe is actually a canvas of awareness. While I love this notion and 'feel' into it deeply, I don't know that it is real or true. So for me then perhaps the real question is can I trust someone who claims to embody this as truth and do I spend the time it takes to 'be' it knowing I may never be able achieve or relax into a stable Kosmic feeling of 'always already' and even if I do, I might be assuming the Sun is revolving around me.

Then again, so many generations of humans stumbled blindly and survived just fine to give birth to Copernicus. So I must be in good company.

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The dream state can help us shake our external identifications

Posted May 27th, 2011 by Kartik Subbarao in response to [Comment Deleted]

Nice message Schalk. I think that pondering the dream state is a useful way to shake the exclusive identification with the waking state and its GIVENs of external reality. My dream self sees the dream characters and places as being external to it -- it's a subject interacting with external objects. My dream self can have internal thoughts, ideas and feelings too -- but these are clearly distinct from the interactions that it has with the dream world in which it moves around.

My waking self, of course, can easily recognize that the entire dream experience -- internal thoughts and external interactions alike -- all happened within my mind. If my mind can create such a convincing experience of external interaction while dreaming, how can I be so sure that it can't create that experience in the waking state?

Posted May 31st, 2011 by steven martini in response to [Comment Deleted]

Yes Schalk. I can see behind the words you're using. Thank you for shaping them as such. The glimpse is also a feeling and a knowing and none of those things.

The gripping I feel is in trying to hold that state. Or move in more than one moment at a time.

Speaking of time - what does it mean, and what is your sense of some non thing that is "not subject to space or time".

It makes me think of Copernicus's predecessor - Anaximander - who had suspected the Earth's rotundity Millenia earlier in the Axial age - most other humans alive at the time assumed the earth was resting upon something else - and that was resting on turtles (as Ken always says) - but Anaxamander sensed that the earth was not resting on anything but it was suspended - being equidistant in all directions from anything else in space and his " 'indefinite' (apeiron) principle gives rise to all natural phenomena."

In my Kundalini Yoga practice if I stay in my breath long enough my whole sense of operating awareness changes. I usually don't get far in trying to describe this state because the words somehow cascade into gibberish graffitti on the wall of a building who's bricks can, if seen up close enough, be broken down into fractals and "quarks"

It is more than almost like learning how to speak a new language from a new place in the body with new tones and new colors. But it takes so much concentration, dedication, and alleviation from the rest of the world's imposing assault of sensory stimuli, and old habits and patterns die hard.

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

I suppose that I should start off with an apology. I am sorry that I elicited so much rancor with my rancorous remarks. I am truly sorry! It hurts to see people suffer. But I strongly suspect that there was no other way to accomplish what I accomplished: an experiment that validated Rene Girard's Mimetic Theory - just a small uncontrolled experiment and a small validation. Of course, I didn't know who, if anyone would take the bait. As it turns out, the ones who are willing to identify themselves and (unbeknownst to them) be participants in my hidden experiment, are Josef, Annie and Schalk.

I've explained Girard's Mimetic Theory and some of its implication on another post on this site. (Cf.: http://integrallife.com/member/greg-mayers/blog/tax-being-human). Here is a tumbnail sketch of Girard's theory, which can't do it justice. The human self and human society is constituted by homicidal violence that we all hide from ourselves and blame on someone, or ones, else. The very occasion that made and makes us human is so horrible that we are incapable of facing it honestly and squarely. We (all human beings) hide from our origins, blaming a scapegoat for the incalculable awful act that suggested us into being.

Annie is almost beside herself in rage at me. Josef cannot help but pull out the propagandic weapons of his hated catholic past to cut me off at the knees. Schalk is willing to cheer the blood lust on from the sidelines. I, the scapegoat, unite all three of you in a sense of righteousness at your human sacrifice of me. (How dare him challenge our beloved Ken, impute my sacred Buddhist heritage, etc.)

Please don't worry, and I assure you there is no need to get defensive. I don't take it personally, even if you meant your attack to be very personal. I don't blame you. It isn't your fault! We (yes, me too - no one is exempt) are constituted to do just what you are engaged in: scapegoating and human sacrifice. If I would have simply told you that or confessed how I personally act this out, you would not have really gotten it. Now you have the evidence of your own feelings of outrage, your own homicidal violence toward me, your own posted words, to validate Girard's insight into human origins.

His theory is deceptively simple: we desire according to the desire of another. It is an "other" who makes us who we are because we desire what we see the "other" desire. Almost simultaneously this degenerates into rivalry. Murder is not far behind. Then we lie to cover up the murder and the rivalry. That is we cover it up from ourselves. Others may see it very readily. (This is validated in psychological experiments and in neurobiological research into "mirror neurons" in the human brain, which show that we are hardwired for imitating others: this means that our homicidal violence is "there" before we are capable of choosing it. It pre-dates our ability to exercise free will. It's not our fault! But it is our responsibility!)

Because we can't deal with our homicidal violence, we hide it from ourselves by seeing it in others, blaming them for what is really our own and their's too, or we hide it behind our spiritual realization, or behind simple heart felt kindness. (I am not being cynical or mean here - I am uncovering just a few of the multiple ways we let ourselves off the hook and commit murder). Annie's polite etiquette completely broke down in the end. She couldn't help herself. She had to throw into my face her previous high regard of me, which she now sees I never deserved. Josef's high Buddhist achievement hardly made it past my first posting, before it completely dissolves into this basest of human urges: crucify him, Josef shouts in what is almost a parody of the Gospel scene.

Look at yourselves. Just below the surface we (me, too) are no better than those we hate. No amount of cosmetics will disguise it. Your own words have uncovered the shameful secret of our common human and personal beginnings. This is one of the most fundamental of "pointing out" instructions that there can be. Jesus said "love your enemies" because they bare all the hate and horror that belongs to us, collectively and individually. They uncover our lies.

Rene Girard has stumbled upon (he doesn't claim it as original) one of the most fundamental insights into human nature. I've studied Ken a lot, and I don't see that he has it. The Buddha didn't claim to see it, though he teaches that desire is the cause of suffering. And whether we see it or not, it is operating every moment of the day. The evidence for it is right there in front of us, just like the left over stuff of the Big Bang is everywhere we look. All of this to say that you won't waste a moment of your time and intelligence in studying Rene Girard. He could change your life.

Again, I am sorry for experimenting with you. If this disturbs you, it isn't because I intend it to do so. It is because it is disturbing in itself. It is so awful that it is almost impossible to see. And thank you for your unconscious and revealing participation in my experiment. You have contributed enormously to our collective self understanding.

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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Goodness. Gracious. Great Balls of...

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Jennifer Grove in response to An Apology and Explanation

Skill.

"If I would have simply told you that or confessed how I personally act this out, you would not have really gotten it."

When I try to do it that way, they still end up trying to kill me. LOL Truly, they can't help themselves.

I doubt that I could learn much from Girard that I haven't already learned by living from one moment to the next. But I'll give him a whirl.

Praise God for those who have the energy for combat and the ego strength to engage. But mostly, Praise God for those who do so in the name of Love and know how to cut to divide joint and marrow - in other words - as a surgeon, not simply another murderer. Alas, I do not have the skill of a surgeon or the ego strength to engage, and so I end up endlessly burnt to a crisp by the Destructive Energy of the Universe - which is inside of me. ;-) - as well as inside of them. But I seem to be the only one aware of it. Or the only one who cares. Chronically Disturbing. And Disturbed.

Now!

I can feel the animal inside
My resolve is weakening
Pounding at the doors of my mind
It's nearly overpowering
I cannot begin to describe
The hunger that I feel again
Run if you intend to survive
For the beast is coming to life
Taking form in the glimmer in this tainted moonlight
Death approaches on this night

For the animal's soul is mine
We will be completed right before your eyes
I have no control this time
And now we both shall dine in Hell tonight

I can hear it calling again
The primal need is filling me
Changes are about to begin
And now my blood is boiling
I can see the fear in your eyes
But you can't bring yourself to scream
Time to shed the mortal disguise
For the beast is coming to life
Taking form in the glimmer of this tainted moonlight
Death approaches on this night

For the animal's soul is mine
We will be completed right before your eyes
I have no control this time
And now we both shall dine in Hell tonight

We begin the hunt and I
Feel the power course, as the creatures take flight
For the kill is close and I will be satisfied
For the smell of fear tonight
Wakes an ancient lust that will not be denied
You're mine

For the animal's soul is mine
We will be completed right before your eyes
I have no control this time
And now we both shall dine in Hell tonight

For the animal's soul is mine
And the world around will never hear your cries
An unholy crime
And now we both shall dine in Hell tonight

I'm doubtful that KW is missing this insight. Years ago there was that "Wyatt Earpy" incident. But the "We" was unable to absorb the lesson and so they put their hands upon his bald head and laid all their sin upon him and sent him off into the desert. It's so very unBoomerlike to act in such an uncivilized manner and they were, and still are, glad to be rid of him. Methinks he lost alot of weight that year...

I think that an intimate and committed community might be able to absorb this. I'm not sure this is the one, but that may just be the Voice of non-skill speaking. I will defer to you.

Deep respect.

"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148

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truth(s)

Posted May 25th, 2011 by Kerry Dugan

Today I had a vivid recollection of a few lines I wrote around 1980. Finding this excerpt of One Taste here tonight, one of those lines "...these bodies are not our prisons, but instruments." made Ken's words all the sweeter.

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musing

Posted May 28th, 2011 by Annie

Eye of Spirit (page 2): Sir James pointed out that it looks more and more certain that the only way to explain the universe is to maintain that it exists "in the mind of some eternal spirit."
It's interesting that "mental health" has always been defined as, in some basic sense, being "in touch" with reality. But what if we look to the very hardest of the sciences in order to determine the nature of this bedrock reality--the reality that we are supposed to be in touch with--and we are rudely told that reality actually exists "in the mind of some eternal spirit"? What then? Does mental health mean being directly in touch with the mind of some eternal spirit? And if we don't believe these physicists as to the nature of ultimate reality, then whom are we to believe? If sanity is the goal, then exactly what reality are we supposed to be in touch with?

Ken says; be consciousness, which in itself is still not God or Spirit but is it all that we can be? If sanity is the goal then maybe we better be consciousness. Now, I am not using consciousness in the same way that I would use "conscious", to be conscious...one can be aware of awareness but still not be "consciousness"

What I hear Ken stating is that "be consciousness" means take on the properties of consciousness, assume the entire span of humanity, and take into ones own mind the ownership of all perception.

Without that statement "be consciousness" what would our mind be attached to, how could we live in this world without being consciousness? Knowing that we are the essence of, the space between and the space beyond today and tomorrow, sanity would elude us. That must be the life of a vegetable, or the prehension of a rock, but the body of humanity has 5 senses and those 5 antennae that participate in reality (material) are stricken with all forms of stimuli, what's a body to do but sway and swoon in each passing play. That would be conscious but would it be consciousness?

Ken defines at least 3 types of consciousness; waking, dreaming and sleeping, or gross, subtle and causal and yet I know myself I can look at these pointing out instructions and still assume that "be consciousness" can only reflect or be reflected in "material reality".

We know there are at least 3 identifiable forms of consciousness and still we continue to relate in the one gross form. If I were being consciousness would I not have aspects of all three at every moment? My world would be filled with a mix of real and imagined, fact and contrived, sensed and touched without knowing "in itself" one more valid than the next. Knowing also, that each form of consciousness has a unique body and a unique environment but ultimately only One Being. As is true for you, it is true for me, how is it we don't meet in all three? Can I move and BE in all consciousness and give to you my own spontaneity and imagination? Can I receive yours?

I don't know, but I would certainly love to play that game.

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EL UNIVERSO ESTA DENTRO DE MI y ESO ES TODO

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Miguel Angel Sa...

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Wrong again...

Posted May 29th, 2011 by Greg Mayers

Ken:

You're very smart! And you're wrong! Vedantism isn't the only, nor the best explanation of the way things are. It is "a" rational explanation, and therein lies the problem! The problem with Vedantism and its offspring (Buddhism) is that despite claiming non-dualism as its heritage, it ends up paradoxically being eminently dualistic - matter over there and spirit in here. In the end "spirit" by whatever name we give it (consciousness being one of them) leaves matter (aka body) behind. How more dualistic can you get?

Don't get me wrong! Buddhism is the best the unaided human intellect can do! And what a marvelous show it is. Buddha was the ultimate rationalist! The kindest, gentlest kind of rationalist. The most compassionate of non-theist.

But that is the problem. The hole left by "non-theism" is filled with something... It can't remain simply "empty". The "mind" (aka consciousness) and humans are left chasing their tails ever since. After the intra-psychic irruption called eastern enlightenment, what next? Are we simply doomed to sidestep suffering through blissful non-attactment. Isn't that just another form, albeit very sophisticated and very skilled, of dualism?

There is another explanation for the way things are, an explanation that also fits the historical record (aka "the fact"). It is also validated by experience and it is the ultimate non-dual reality, not just an intra-psychic experience of unity in a moment of insight.

I suggest you read Rene Girard's (Professor Emeritus Stanford University, Member of Academie Francaise) "Things Hidden from the Foundation of the World". He offers a very simple model that challenges everything you've embraced. I challenge you to incorporate Rene Girard's Mimetic Theory into your Vedantic scheme.

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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aware

Posted May 31st, 2011 by manie nieman in response to Wrong again...

I found myself aware in a strange world. I was born without words. Without knowledge. Pure awareness. Formless .

Innocent. Open. Receiving. Eager to learn. Compelled to grow.

But then it started..... " They" changed me. They told me what the world is . They taught me words.

They rewarded me when I was good and punished me when I was bad.

They took my awareness away and gave me a dream to life in. It made me sad and poor.

Now I am taking it back. I am not a worm. I was born a butterfly.

Let me shine.

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Me too

Posted June 3rd, 2011 by Akete Iru in response to aware

I'm not sure why this is in this particular thread, but I'm glad it is, thank you. I too have found my variety of awareness has caused conflict, confusion and a sad kind of aloneness. I can't say I've ever felt lonely, because as far back as I can remember, there has always been 'the other', whatever that was.

Unfortunately, most children are still punished for being bad and the qualifications are questionable of those who decide what is good and what is bad. It turns out that my intrinsic nature was bad, bad for them and bad for me. I used to think I wasn't meant for this world and wanted to go home....wherever that was.

Like you, I am a butterfly, was born that way, but the harshness of life made me build a cocoon for protection.

The original theme of this thread seems to be encouragement to change our perception or understanding so that we can experience our true reality... the freedom that we actually are. (I think that's what it is, sometimes the language confuses me)

I did that today, for about 8 minutes during my chi-ball class at the gym, it was nice when the instructors words became just sounds which were part of me, there was no separation, I let myself be the sounds, I let the sounds be me. I was aware of this and aware that the sounds used to have meaning, were supposed to have meaning, but I didn't care. I let there be a space between the sound which was me and the coming of the meaning, which I really didn't want to do, but I was in a gym class and I was supposed to be following along and doing what I was supposed to be doing, which was not what my natural instinct was.

There was that conflict again...them and me. So I just let that conflict be me too and it was like time had slowed down or maybe I had slowed down I'm not sure, but there was some kind of discrepancy there because suddenly I was supposed to be quickly shoving my chi back in my body because the next class was waiting to come in...it was brutal, but for about 8 minutes I think I got to experience the thing Ken might have been talking about originally.

(I wish there were more smileys to choose from) If there was a smiley holding a balloon I would have used it.

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You're right... partially

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Greg Mayers in response to [Comment Deleted]

Josef:

You are correct. In place of Vedanta in my above response, read "Vedic tradition" which is the root of Buddhism and Vedanta (and Jains). I was too hasty in typing - one of the pit falls of our contemporary high speed communication culture. "Get it out before you get it right" seems to be the criterion. Easy to fall into. A thousand apologies...

Thanks for passing judgment on my "complete transmission of the Buddha". I will be sure to let my teachers know that you disapprove. They will be so relieved!

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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I would be interested...

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

in hearing what you have to say about a comparison between the Christian Resurrection and the Buddhist Nondual. If you don't mind?

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Happy to know...

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Greg Mayers in response to [Comment Deleted]

Josef:

I am happy to know that only after 30 years of practicing you have the "complete Buddhist tradition". Wow... that was really quick. I thought it took the Buddha many live times to get the teaching right... But, as you say, you've been doing this for 30 years so you know what you are talking about... Wow! I'm really impressed with your accomplishment!

Greg Mayers

Zen taught me everything I can do.

Christianity taught me everything I can't do.

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Sincerity

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Greg Mayers in response to [Comment Deleted]

Josef:

Sincerity is the sincerest form of insincerity.

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

It's quite a hard pill to swallow, accepting the blame for what the Catholic church has done, but yes, Josef is correct (I believe), as members we are perceived according to the actions of the Tradition.

Josef's response was jarring, and that was my reaction.

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I woke up at 3 am to this...UGH!

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

Well, I didn't see that coming! I am left with a strong dislike for Greg -- I honestly don't know what else to say.

It seems now that any arguments in either direction are simply details of a larger plot that Greg insists we share as co-conspirators. Ok Greg, you have my disdain...what now!

If you want to initiate a conversation about the Catholic Church and the sins that we committed, this is hardly the way to begin. The human condition has access to every form of violence imaginable but I don't think I ever thought of myself as inoculated...I only attempted to choose a better form of conduct.

This reminds me of one of my own modes of operating, and many others that play the same; we arrive at this place through hatred and anger, having exhausted our resources in finding mutuality and respect, and so we turn (I turn) and walk away. Thinking that this chapter is the final chapter in that relationship, and that is often the case. So now I consider this background as being the foundation of all human interaction, I have no "higher ground" to stand on, and nothing to lord over anyone. Do you think that is what causes us to turn and walk away (not accepting our mutual predicament)?

I think of the Catholic church and the hatred I had for all that it produced, I walked away because (in some ways) they did not own any infallibility, as if she could stand omnipotent and we were the ones that paid the price. If she were an "IT"...we could not fault her, but she is suppose to be alive and living in the hearts and minds of Christians. So again, they have separated man and God, making it all the more difficult to come back.

I don't think that even begins to touch the pain and suffering I feel for the Catholic church, much of it is unidentifiable to me, I tell myself it is because it is not personal so I cannot trace it back to specifics. Some may in fact be repressed, but then I wonder how I would have survived if that was in fact personal.

Another part of me understands the barriers that are established, and what is needed to maintain the doctrine, so I wonder if the crumbling structure merely reflects the faulty foundation.

I know we don't build a church with a single idea in the mind of a single culture, this is an evolving process and whatever comes into being through this "Universal" knowledge will then be Catholic. At least that is my hope for her.

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Hello Greg,

Posted May 30th, 2011 by Annie in response to Wrong again...

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

Why did you ignore my request for a discussion on the Resurrection and Nondual? Did I ask the wrong question? Can you just frame it for me; the 9 yanas build on this understanding?

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yes it did.

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

I read that somewhere...the missing years of Jesus life where he went to receive his complete training. I had never heard that compared to a "rainbow body" but I do think that it does happen. It might surprise you how open I am to things like that!

Anyway, thanks Josef

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no shit!

Posted May 31st, 2011 by Annie in response to [Comment Deleted]

Josef,

I remember reading about those things with utter amazement, the sources sounded believable to me but I always placed it in the category of God's special gifts. What I have learned hanging out here, is that development and potential is there to be grasped, but I also realize that the drive to peruse these things is not for everyone. Either way, it's all Grace...I believe.

Sometimes, you open up beautifully and I too like Schalk just want to take it all in. I recognized your contribution here, we certainly don't hear from disciples such as you very often.

It is very exciting to me to hear that Jesus was probably a Master from your lineage, WOW...all I got to say about that, the other thing is...how do I sign up? :-)

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