Chuckling along with Ken and Martin...

Hi Stefano,

Now we are getting down to business, we have stripped off another layer of clothing that brings a sense of absurdity and redundancy towards all that "clothing" maintains. It seems to me that from this location, those that wear cloths will never understand that we are naked...thinking that our bodies are cloaked in something other than energy.

Your question; was his advice bad for having failed so often, or good for coming from so much experience?

I would only ask how it ended? Today I see this as expanding our own ability to love, the space in which we exist and those whom we are capable of including. Whoever enters; the play between the two continues to be subject to the "ONE", this dynamic must adhere to an evolving environment, and whether or not they can assume responsibility for that space as "I", created by "WE", they continue to enact LOVE. Knowing this...when the two part ways, it is because they may imagine a new way of loving that moves away from that "WE" environment.

'as Integral thinkers, we can't even agree on what's real! This feels like our biggest problem. What do you think?'

Thankyou Jennifer for expressing this concern. Its been a big concern for me too. And I'm not sure what can be done about it (or if anything could ever be done about it). 'Integral' may well be bringing forth the most capable analysis tool ever known. But I'm still troubled at times with some of the self assured 'conclusion making' that I hear/read from IP

Totally get that we don't want to be burdened by 'fearful greens' insecurities to draw conclusions about anything.   And yet the flip side of that can lead to 'conclusion making' that is overly self-satisfied, even arrogant and or just plain wrong - perhaps based on 'Facts' about whats 'real' that are incorrect or perhaps an individuals subconscious shadow is blindly perverting an analysis.

Integral Awareness I'm sure does not wish to fall into either pitfall, indeed 'integral' itself is acutely aware of such problems. And yet I have noticed at times, even highly evolved 'Integralist' don't seem immune from it either(respectfully include Ken in that). The thing about 'conclusions', is that we may have to accept they are very likely influenced by some bias : personal, ideological, or factual inaccuracy.

 It's not at all surprising to hear you heard some economist having disagreements about whats 'real'. I remember being in Russia just after glasnost, listening to many western countries economic professors (sent by their gov'ts to help Russia's capitalist conversion) arguing vigorously about what was 'real capitalism'. Point being that experts with supposedly the same philosophy/ideology can still conclude, very differently.

No doubt, it is all as it should be at a certain level but then as Integralists its good for us to practice an 'aware listening' to conclusions made by anyone(except mine of course, ha!).

Kind Regards David.

ps. Should be most interesting to 'listen' to the conclusions to be brought forth soon by many Integralist's re 911 anniversary.  For example I wonder if Jeff will seriously consider the 'Real' problems of factually explaining the likes of Building 7 or if those architects and engineers are to be 'concluded' as merely conspiracy people. 

I was never prepared in my conventional cultural gender role training about how to interact with fired up intelligent women. If another man's all pissed off, but making coherent points I've got the conventional options of either firing back in kind or creating a container in which to dissipate enough of the heat to have a more reasonable discussion. If it's a woman though, I'm afraid that I'll seem intimidating if I fire back in kind on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm afraid that trying to actively engage to calm the situation will seem patronizing to a woman and just make her more pissed off as though I'm dismissing her as irrational and emotional. So I just kind of shut down and don't say anything or maybe wait a while and then ask a meek question. It takes skill to hold passionate but different perspectives in the same space anyway and the gender role thing adds to it.

Maybe Europe is farther through there feminist revolution than we are in the States.

I learned about the plumbing early. I think I was 8. And it was described as a result of feelings of loving or liking someone.

If there was anything more that I could have been told that would have been informative it would have been that many men experience sexual arousal and pleasure when either hurting or humiliating a woman or treating her like prey. And that some will lie about anything and everything and pretend to be interested in what I'm saying just to get sex and then be done with me once it's over. I say, this would have been informative because I'm not so sure it would have been helpful or useful in preventing the event or the damage.

When Ken and Martin repeated that horrible cliche that women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex, a horrible sense of violation arose in me. Regardless of their constantly repeating that these were only tendencies and that they were not all universally experienced, blah-blah-blah, they still would revert back to talking as if it was a given. [chuckle-chuckle-nudge-nudge] One of the few things that my Mother did right was tell me that men and women didn't always need to love each other to have sex. That sometimes it was just for fun.

But she didn't tell me that it was sometimes fun for men to make it unfun for women. Years later, I would learn that she had been date raped and I wish that she would have told me about that. So, for a long time I was unrealistically pursuing the idea that if I let men know that it was okay with me if it was just for fun, that they would not need to trick me or deceive me in order to get sex. I could not understand why this would turn some of them off, but that they would keep trying to get me to fall in love even tho I knew they were lying. If they wanted sex, here it was. But no! That's not what they actually wanted. They actually wanted to experience the successful deceit.

This was horribly damaging to me. They wouldn't treat me like a free agent. Men wanted to be the only free agents and women were the acquisitions. There was no way for me to get what I wanted because they left me completely shut out of the whole negotiation process. As you can see, this pattern is still repeated in this audio for me. And this is different than the cliche. It's actually much worse. This issue was not looked at, but looked thru. They were acting it out in this audio even as they were paying lip service to transcendence.

---oOo---

Aside from the plumbing:

Tell your boys that they are equally free agents along with the girls and that they should each learn enuf about themselves to know what they want and negotiate fairly for it with their partner in question. It is not for men/boys to negotiate with one another what to do with the girls. Respect one anothers' boundaries. You will eventually be rewarded with great sex if you do this and prolly much sooner and more often than if you do it the other way. When they finally do start having sex, they should stay with that partner for a while and practice with her until they get really good. Be grateful to her for helping you. Don't "discuss your acquisitions" with your guy friends. If you have to say something, let them know that the girl is another free agent with whom you are in honest negotiation and that they should go and do likewise.

Talk to the girls also. Don't give them the idea that "sex is bad" or that "boys are bad", but that they have to know that some of them are going to try some horrible shit and that she don't deserve that. Esp. now when porn is so ubiquitous. Boys might be a little confused and clueless at first (thinking porn is sex school!), but that they can be really great playmates when they finally understand things a little better. LOL And be nice to them! Don't gossip about them with other girls in such a way as to humiliate them. Don't laugh at them when they're being vulnerable. They might want to appear tough and indifferent, but some of them can get hurt reeeeeeeeealy bad. And I suspect that some boys will be extra appreciative if the young girl is good at teaching them what feels good. So she will have to learn how to talk about that. And tell her not to put up with humiliation, aggression or violence under any circumstances.

For both of them: If you want out of the relationship, talk about it nicely and part as friends. Don't dump! Don't be mean in an effort to cause the other person to hate you instead of being hurt. This does not work. Ask them what they need to be able to do this well and respect that. Respect them! If the other person needs out of the relationship and is not being an asshole about it, respect this and don't be mean. You can't make people love you. If you get dumped and disrespected, walk away with as much dignity as you can and do not look back. It's their loss! Let your parents comfort you. Peers will encourage you to retaliate and that will actually make things worse. If you show your friends that you can bear hurt without hate, they will respect the shit outta you and come to you for advice.

When they finally have sex, be happy for them. Take them out to dinner and celebrate. Both boys and girls. Encourage them to talk about it and let them know you will help them with anything they need as far as birth-control and std protection and privacy. Let them know that their partners are welcome in your home. My Daughter talked to me pretty early. It took some time before my Son was able to talk about it with me, but we're really good with this now. I'm the "Go to" Parent when it comes to this. And we all tease each other often. They tease me about being such a Cougar and I am so grateful!!

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"The Left Hand Path, not merely the Right ... must take the lead."

~SES pg. 148