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"Autonomy" versus "The Community"
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier
A balance of liberation and manifestation is necessary if we are to be whole human beings.
Without the upward flow of liberation we do not change, we do not grow. Like automatons we become stuck in monotonous routines with a consciousness lulled to sleep by boredom.
By contrast, without manifestation, we become aimless dreamers that fly into vast realms but are unable to land. We are not grounded and are simply full of ideas. We are unable to make commitments, lack discipline and are unable to complete tasks.
A combination of both liberation and manifestation is in a sense a sacred marriage, as such a union creates limitless possibilities.
As we become capable of taking on an ever-increasing number of perspectives, we discover that this balance is not only an essential in our individual lives. It is also a balance necessary in any community; even this online community of which all of us reading this are participants.
Unlike the group which meets in time and space we do not have access to reading body language or making eye contact. We are not dependant on bodily presence, location or time-zone. We meet in a “we-space” that promotes a collective consciousness, as technology makes possible a flow of energies not possible before in history.
With this, however, comes responsibility.
The downward flow of manifestation in such a “we-space” implies that the group should honour and show hospitality to each of the members who contributes to this site.
The individual, however, also needs to respect the group. I can obviously write in whichever style I feel comfortable with, but I do have a responsibility to make myself understandable as best as I am able. I cannot simply invade each and every blog with mumbo-jumbo and constant displays of “My Way” only in an attempt to attain love, affection and appreciation. Such displays will hinder not only my own liberation but also that of the group.
This upward flow of liberation implies a gradual move away from autonomy.
In my opinion, the balance of manifestation and liberation should be at the heart of all communication that takes place here at Integral Life.
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Interesting to think of Liberation at higher levels of integration such as...
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Very good, Linda!Eric, That got me to thinking. The concept of liberation would cease to have much, if any, meaning once a person/being grows to become highly authentic (true to one's potential - fully actualized, or actualizing), because what can a truly authentic being be liberated from?
Liberation only has meaning when you are just breaking free of some sort of limiting, or enslaving, habit or situation. A truly authentic being is not of that habit, and would tend to transcend external situations that would normally enslave a person/being. An authentic being would be too busy being authentic in an enslaving situation to be truly enslaved. He or she would, out of his or her authenticity, be liberation during enslavement, but only "liberation" in the eyes of others outside gazing at the authentic response to the enslaving situation.
I am nowhere near truly authentic. Yet, even I have had my triumphs of autheticity, during which angels seemed to watch over me. Once, I was told I would have to discontinue a support group for chronically and terminally ill patients in a prison setting. I was told this because I was not getting my paper work done sufficiently. It was my manager's ultimatum to get me to do more of the required left brain, company, stuff. But no sooner than my boss told me this ultimatum, my boss's boss publicly commented about how great it was to see that group being conducted.
Like the parting of the Red Sea, I was able to continue my group, without missing a single "beat"(session). It was as though my good intentions had the power of righteousness (in an almost quantum mechanics sort of way, rather than in the standard moralistic, high resistance, sort of way). Or "truth" rooted in authenticity. It seems to have a kind of invisible power which, at times (or in time, over time), almost magically removes obsticals.
Point is, sometimes even average Joes, when they are being most authentic, can be liberated in the very midst of external enslavement. At that moment of authenticity, there was never really any internal enslavement at all. I was busy doing what I was called to do, and the conditions simply conformed to my mission, in an almost effortless, graceful, fashion, as though it were meant to happen.
I notice that in this comment - this line of thought - I jumped from "nondual" (or other higher levels of integration), right onto the idea of "authentic being". Did my mind sense an intimate connection between "authentic" and "nondual"? Or was it an equivocation of apples to oranges? Was my intuitive leap of logic a truth or an illusion?
Anyway, it is what my mind did, and I let it. Did I trust my mind too much? Was it a kid on a bulldozer? Or Luke Skywalker successfully using the Force? The illusion of freedom because I can "do my own thing", or can be, as Dennis Rodman (the outragious basketball player) says, as "bad as I wanna be"? Or the true liberating force of authenticity?
Thanks for your thought-provoking comment which led to these "flights of fancy" or "insights" (whichever proves to be the case) about a relationship between authenticity and liberation.
Darrell
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I couldn't agree more
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Matthew FlowersI've heard Mr. Wilber point out that "we's" or social holons have a dominant mode of discourse instead of a dominant monad (based on Whitehead as I recall). So the dominant mode of discourse for our social group (I hesitate away from collective consciousness) is just this, these posts. Small black and white symbols infused with meaning when they come together. This technology that allows us to connect with people we would have never before been able to become a "we" with also has a shadow to it. We gain much but lose those very things you spoke of, bodily cues and eye contact. I will also add (and indeed based on those previous two) social restraint, or the ability of a group who is in a state of flow to give subtle social cues to those who aren't necessarily in the flow. It is much easier to discount individuals that aren't giving you direct attention over a computer than it is to do in person.
When we speak in person we can be assured that we are being heard, maybe not listened to, but at least our voice is heard by those we wish to hear us. Through this mode of discourse I can speak but I don't know if I am being heard. Who and how many people are reading my posts? Are they falling on deaf ears or falling in a forest with no one around to hear them? I have only one way of knowing and that is through an other's response, but the response must come directly to me and not thorough a different post. This is the dilemma of the LR.
We can conceive of a grand discussion, but without modulation it's chaos and unless the modules themselves have a way of communicating amongst themselves it will fall apart. It's a house of cards. We can respond to media presented by the Integral Life staff and we can respond to the thoughts posted by the individuals in our community but we need more. We need a communal way of making connections among all the posts and blogs that is distinct from the other LR structures we currently use. We need an Integral form of communication that transcends and includes these posts, blogs and media.
I do not know what this form is but I am contemplating it very much appreciate this space in which it can arise, as I appreciate your post.
--
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Ach!!
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to I couldn't agree moreI guess my first response was a bit too detached. My pathology. Ooops. But, yes Linda, communicatively, humanity seems to be a bit stunted as a result of it's encroaching technology. Not so much it's technology as it's inherent addiction to it. The mind can just randomly fill in all kinds of gaps in communication especially in this mode via the internet which can be problematic, obviously. Like you, Matthew, I allow my energy to entertain other, more direct forms of communication and sharing at a global if not universal level although again, like you, I know not what that would look like. But I will say this, the directionality of the technology feels like we are close. I can only guess, but I would posit to say that something liking to a USB port implanted on the side of the human skull allowing for direct jack input from communication hardware already in existence could come about if we don't use our technology to destroy ourselves first. Networking at the speed of thought. Now if you could "hear" All (participants that is) simultaneously but have the ability to narrow down the inbound frequencies to a few or one with thought, that would be amazing. We could, with doubtless immediacy, hear ourselves thinking as ONE; a community anchored to a shared line of thought and reasoning, organizing, living and moving as ONE in the Many. Maybe that is what the ONE back down to the Many might look like. Just theoretical spitballing. No worse than anybody else. It just seems that collectively, we would go cybernetic to speed the process up a smidge until Evolution made the implantations pointless and moot. Don't you think?
I know I kind of doglegged the topic a little, but it was fun. Thanks for letting me play!
Be well and be loved,
Erik
--
We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, have been doing so much with so little for so long, now attempt the impossible with nothing...
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Speed of thought
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Ach!!Hi Erik
I’m totally fascinated by what is developing out of this discussion. The point you make now that struck me as I read your first comment was exactly how, when making use of the internet to communicate, the “mind can just randomly fill in all kinds of gaps in communication”. Nevertheless, all you stated in your first comment was absolutely true and the Bodhisattva vow is certainly one we need to make as we attempt to make the good of this community our concern.
Now if you could "hear" All (participants that is) simultaneously but have the ability to narrow down the inbound frequencies to a few or one with thought, that would be amazing. We could, with doubtless immediacy, hear ourselves thinking as ONE; a community anchored to a shared line of thought and reasoning, organizing, living and moving as ONE in the Many.
Your networking at the speed of thought by means of implantations is certainly one solution to the problem that Matthew is wanting to solve. 
Regards
Linda
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Well...
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to Speed of thought...it gladdens me so to see you or whomever glean something from my idle rambling. Just your point, yes? I can be a bit abstract or detached sounding. Now that I've put that disclaimer out there, I shall now continue my rigorous pursuit of innocuous incongruity....albeit never intentionally. = P
With my two previous responses, I seemed to have flanked the topic of discussion from polar opposites. Imagine then the deciphering technology, were it available, that enabled one to intuit what exactly was being spoken. In other words, communication in it's entirety, exists at a multitude of levels and types as you and Matthew both illustrated. Whether intended or not is beside the point. That it was or wasn't IS the point. A mutation (or consciously evolved ability) or cybernetic implant that could not only "hear" the communicated thought, but could also perhaps decipher the communicator's intention, implication and emotional state from a single BEing to multiple BEings simultaneously, would be nothing short of a miracle. A technologically telepathic "Babel Fish" if you will. An absolute must-have gadget! And I think that we can do it just as soon as we collectively understand the circuitry of the brain a little better. Bringing technological enhancement to our "somatics" (psyche studies) is a field that would both amaze me and leave my mouth agog as it would anyone I presume...
Be well and be loved,
Erik
--
"We're Philosophers! We demand rigidly defined lines of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Respect and Hospitality
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Well...Erik, now you have introduced more shadow elements of the LR technology we are using.
Online communication can so easily fail to show or in the worst case can disguise, the writer’s intention, implication or emotional state. Your telepathic “Babel Fish” would certainly be a miracle.
Which brings us back to one of the points I made originally. “The individual, however, also needs to respect the group. I can obviously write in whichever style I feel comfortable with, but I do have a responsibility to make myself understandable as best as I am able.” We have to attempt to manifest in a way that makes our liberation and that of this community more possible.
I include here an excerpt from one of the comments I made on my “Rublev, TSK and the 21st century” blog:
As recent discussions have indicated, the need to dialogue in a hospitable fashion can only add value to what we are attempting on this blogsite.
Abraham and Sarah entertain three strangers and the hospitality they show them is spontaneous.
In a sense, we are experiencing something similar by participating on this site. Your comment to my work made you arrive unexpectedly on the doorstep of my blog page. I have never met you before this. It is up to me to welcome you and open myself to hearing what you have to say. This is a new experience, in that we have to learn in this new “we-space” to listen with our eyes, not our ears.
It is also new, and this never fails to amaze me, in that the normal constraints of time and space are here of no significance. You live in New Mexico, I live in South Africa. We live in different time zones, but that fact too does not prohibit our conversation.
Maybe, Rublev has something to say to us as integral bloggers in this regard as well.
Andrei Rublev was trained by a master of three-dimensional artistry. When studying Rublev’s works, however, one finds that although he painted historical events in three dimensions, he chose to paint certain happenings in two dimensions, in order to indicate that they are beyond time and space. They cannot be seen in the normal way. Is our blogging here, not such an event? Has not the whole technology of the internet opened the possibility of communicating on just such a plane?
If so, we are privileged, but also have a responsibility to dialogue in a hospitable fashion as we welcome each other into this “we-space” – a space from which I believe, a new collective consciousness can arise, bringing with it the potential for a new type of creativity.
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Heads will roll (no, explode)
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Well...Erik, even with the "decifering" feature you added to your device, isn't intention and state and implication from such a wide source of information add even more information overload than we already have? It might make our heads explode. Unless, perhaps we master whole-mind, low resistance thought/processing first, before using the implant.
The fish would have to have very good gills to sift the information directly through an ocean of mental energies. Otherwise it would simply be too much imput in minds not yet trained to sort through wide bands of energy - not yet trained to properly "de-mux" (an information term my AT&T-employed brother-in-law once told me) information.
I suspect that right-brainish pattern thought can do this filtering in the low resistance, soft-sifting, way which would seem to be required. The amount of mental associations sifted through sometimes to write the simplest and shortest of poems is amazing. Like learning the right-brain skills of writing a poem (or other creative works), we would need to develop an intrapsychic mental net if we are to handle the access of more and more info/associations via the technology of the internet or of the implant you propose.
Ever see the movie Event Horizon? The spaceship entered dimensions it was not yet prepared to handle. The result was chaos (and a lot of blood!). Science exceeded wisdom. Is there a cultural (teaching, mentoring, nurturing, reinforcing, etc.) preparation for the Babble Fish device?
Darrell
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Spit ball into Snow ball, see link
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Well...Erik, Kinda ironic that some of the best communication is occurring in the most tangential and irresponsible of ways here - much closer to liberation than manifestation. The responsible on-task, manifestation, community theme has triggered the almost opposite form of communication. In the process of reeling in Autonomy, we are honoring him/her by communicating more and more like him/her, and loving every minute of it! Perhaps it is just another way to choose a priority of Grace over Law. Our actions speak louder than our words here. Check out the spitball-turned-snowball of your "babble fish" invention, and how the concept (the projection) dovetails into the concept of "channeling" as introduced by (whom else!) Autonomy : Channel
Darrell
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^ ^ ^
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to [Comment Deleted]My point has just been validated. Come on Babel Fish!!!!!
Erik
--
"We're Philosophers! We demand rigidly defined lines of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Good Point
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Autonomy in response to ^ ^ ^that is just sad that you would, like a shark ..... whatever...
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Shit
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to Good PointYou tricked me good you know.... 
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Poem for the Occassion
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to ShitDear Autonomy, Babble Fish! Why are you being taken to the wood shed? Perhaps it is well intended, and honest confrontation or feedback, but it seems unnecessarily harsh and loppsided to me. Here is a poem I wrote about my own finding of a softer, more poetic, approach to personal change/growth. I wanted to share poetry with you - instead of the confrontation. I enjoy the free-association. Is that an end-all? Of course not. Nor do I suppose you think it is. But stream of consciousness communication is a viable vehicle. It is a holly hock way of seeking truth. And apparently it can make us all itch at times! But I prefer it to the woodshed. I place you behind the smoke house instead.
Darrell
Pink
Round ruffled flowers
of various colors -
my favorite is pink -
occupy columns
on fuzzy towers;
hollyhocks.
Hollyhocks;
look at them
and you feel
all pink and fuzzy.
Brush against them
and you itch like crazy.
Hollyhocks hid
behind our smoke house
when I was a boy;
not behind the wood shed
where you learned the hard way.
Instead of welts, pink ruffles.
© 2008 Darrell Moneyhon
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Oh, I see, Babble Fish not a Bad thing
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Poem for the OccassionAutonomy, After reading the comments more thoroughly, I see the term "Babble Fish" now not in relation to the act of your deletion of what your comment was, but in relation to the content of what it was, whatever that content might have been, and in relation to some hypothetical tech interface to whole-mind processing abilities. A talking fish communicating oceanically?! Sifting through its gills the watery contents of the communication energy flow. Not the slam I mistook it to be. Not the woodshed. And yet other comments on this post suggest a woodshed or a "wordshed" of advice. Wow, hollyhocks really can be itchy at times!
Darrell
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The Lower Right's Shadow
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to I couldn't agree moreHi Matthew
This technology that allows us to connect with people we would have never before been able to become a "we" with also has a shadow to it.
You have introduced an interesting concept – the shadow side to the technology we are using as our means of communication.
Loss of social restraint, the inability to give subtle social cues to members who are not in the current flow and are acting with inappropriate behaviour, the fact that it is difficult to know if one is being heard or not, and the absence of a communal way of making connections amongst all the posts and blogs, are all aspects of this shadow.
(One positive though – it’s not so easy to interrupt the one speaking!) 
Wouldn’t it be cool if the very technology we are using to communicate could practice the 3-2-1 shadow process on itself! Who knows maybe a program could be written to attempt this. For instance, a certain number of insults on a post could be registered electronically in the third “person”; this could be converted into a second person statement which would then show up on the screen to alert the writer of the post who would then have the opportunity to personalize what was happening and then make amends. This would be a sort of online 3-2-1 exercise!
Our dominant mode of discourse is these posts and so your concern to make this discourse as meaningful as possible, is much appreciated.
Regards
Linda :-)
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You must be reading minds
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Robb Smith in response to The Lower Right's ShadowWe talked yesterday in one of our team meetings about installing a "Shadow Meter" application into the community post function so the collective could indeed begin to offer some technology-intermediated cues about what they perceive in members' posts. The perspectival problems inherent in such a move are obvious and it might just piss everyone off. However we are giving serious consideration about how to deepen and authenticate the communication in the community through better and more integrally-informed tools.
--
Robb Smith
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transformation
Posted May 1st, 2009 by David Marshall in response to You must be reading mindsRobb, thank you for being a hands-on CEO.
However, if it's deeper and more authentic communication that we want, I think we should encourage caring interaction and engagement. I think these anonymous rating devices will actually discourage interaction, and I don't see how they would help a person transform.
These anonymous ratings would very likely be an expression of:
- shadow themselves,
- a less-than-integral worldview,
- a type bias.
I also see such things empowering the majority of a group rather than the leading edge of a group.
Further, they don't give people any information to work with, and it would be essential in any case to know who the rating is coming from. People need to be able to say to themselves, "Yes, I know that person; he or she is highly evolved; I will listen to his or her criticism. But he or she is not so evolved; I can't regard him or her as my integral coach." But anonymous rating systems don't give people the opportunity to discriminate like that.
If interaction were encouraged, however, people would:
- have information to work with,
- know where the information was coming from,
- and develop interpersonal skills and skillful means in the process.
Blocking will work fine for innocuous posters who individuals feel take up space. For defamatory or hostile posters I don't think there is a substitute for a moderator who will come in and lay down the law or deactivate an account, but that's fairly rare to see.
I also think that blogs about other posters should be discouraged. You know, "On the such-and-such blog so-and-so said this. Isn't that ridiculous to hear on an integral forum?" I think criticizing ideas is important and necessary, but personalizing it should be discouraged. I think that would solve part of the issue.
Best,
David
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I feel similarly
Posted May 4th, 2009 by Ambo Suno in response to transformationHi David - you articulate directly some of the risks of such a creative endeavor. You evoke in me the thought that such a device could inadvertently be used as a tool to promote momentarily dubious agendas that are not arising in full intelligence and light themselves, that remain in the shadow. Yes, it could piss people off and it could backfire in other detrimental ways. It's good to have a long conversation about it among leadership and forum, but I'd err on the cautionary side. So, yes, good idea to consider, contemplate, have some chuckles about, and bring forward to the forum. And maybe those who want to be shadow-metered, can request for themselves; I think quickly it would be discovered how complicated the sequellae could be.
I agree with you about Robb's great hands-on. Wow - that takes guts - and other chakroid resources as well.
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The individual excellence approach
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to transformationDavid, I agree with what I think to be the (or a) gist of what you said above. The individual approach to excellence and growth seems to be too much an application of our larger, American, culture, which, IMO, has resisted growing toward a higher stage of inter-dependence. We are fixated on independence.
Why would IL go down that route (the individual or clinical approach) when a communal, systems, approach may do better, and would be in line with our broad-view philosophy? Why not use the quads to group "gifts" and then to integrate the subgroups into the integral/integrated community? Why not use a community approach to this percieved problem of low quality "communication"?
IMO we need translators and processes and niches and gift assessments, all of which the "community" can provide - if it so chooses. Too much emphasis on, or dependency on, individual growth approach can lead to subtle or not-so-subtle forms of elitism. It is a slippery slope that we could avoid if we work together on a more community, systems-oriented (Demming-like) approach to quality assurance.
Darrell
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Well, Robb...
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Erik Stitt in response to You must be reading minds...I for one, would not be pissed off, believe it or not! I think that any remedy that enhances or clarifies communication, that precious touching of ideas between one another, is an absolutely (and I don't parlay to absolutes willy nilly!) wonderful idea. Some might find it invasive, while others still even less confrontational than myself (my shadow), might find it extremely helpful as it is common from my already awkward viewpoint to not necessarily capture the essence of what is being communicated; the literal message vs. the "heart" of the message.
I say get at it and wowzers, won't that be some fun?!
Be well and be loved,
Erik
--
"We're Philosophers! We demand rigidly defined lines of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Shadow Meter
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to You must be reading mindsThanks for responding Robb. I, like Erik, would be in favour of a shadow meter.
The concern to “deepen and authenticate the communication in the community through better and more integrally-informed tools” is much appreciated and shows how the LL and LR could be working hand-in-hand helping to keep our intentions in the UL as pure as possible, as we attempt to manifest in the UR as best as we are able in an online community.
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Exercising restraint
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Shadow MeterHi Autonomy
I see you have deleted a number of your posts and a number of your comments.
I choose to believe that you do have the interests and well-being of this community at heart and therefore I would like to commend you, because in this deleting action, I see you exercising restraint.
The truth of the matter is, a lot of what you were saying was not being heard because a number of members would simply take an orange approach and use technology by pushing the “Block User” button”. A child whining in one’s ears is not going to get the attention it is actually looking for.
You have called yourself an “Integral Child” and I for one, am happy to see the structure you are attempting. You have much to offer.
A structured statement without an emotional outburst will certainly be more successful.
Your “stream of consciousness” method is one thing, but remember that it took James Joyce seventeen years to write “Finnegan’s Wake” and master the method – and even today, not everyone is able to read him.
I guess at this point, I can only repeat what I wrote in the original post:
Unlike the group which meets in time and space we do not have access to reading body language or making eye contact. We are not dependant on bodily presence, location or time-zone. We meet in a “we-space” that promotes a collective consciousness, as technology makes possible a flow of energies not possible before in history.
With this, however, comes responsibility.
The downward flow of manifestation in such a “we-space” implies that the group should honour and show hospitality to each of the members who contributes to this site.
The individual, however, also needs to respect the group. I can obviously write in whichever style I feel comfortable with, but I do have a responsibility to make myself understandable as best as I am able. I cannot simply invade each and every blog with mumbo-jumbo and constant displays of “My Way” only in an attempt to attain love, affection and appreciation. Such displays will hinder not only my own liberation but also that of the group.
This upward flow of liberation implies a gradual move away from autonomy.
In my opinion, the balance of manifestation and liberation should be at the heart of all communication that takes place here at Integral Life.
Best wishes
LInda
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Restraints? WILL
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to Exercising restraintMy posts, I can hardly reread them, because I have anxiety embeddede in the characters I use in order to try and communicate what I am trying to say. It is the only way.. Now, what I could not comprehend is that not one person, attempted to help apply structure... "Teach a man to fish", how ironic to my analogue.. I just realized it, so apparently no one caught it..
I believed so much in this loving community that someone would come to under-stand that, without me having to compromise my honor.
I hear some talk about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ... From what I have read, that is a sugar coated topping. I could never explain to one person, all I have gone through. Nor would anyone ever realize, or could ever comprehend or communicate it.
The Devil, or in my way of explaining is an innocent mind isolated at a young age. Does not know what to make of it. I'm sure most of the people here have felt some isolation. Well, in the "Devils" case, it is the worst sin of Life. The effect. Just another test to see what love can do.
In understanding this Egocentric Abyss.... and loving this and accepting this shadow.... In doing this, obeying every principle and every teaching of a Great Leader. There is no action that can be made out of any other emotion than passion. I was the incognito Light in the eternal darkness, for so long. What thee does not understand, is that this is not a matter of time.. Like e-DOG would say.. "Peace in understanding (accepting), not force(intent...)".
This Egocentric Abyss, which I knew no one on earth could handle... for I had helped others that no other would attempt to help... Life aware of Life.. My entire Life, never spoke* a word of my goodness, for in doing so my actions would speak less... It takes away Thou Honor.
Ayn Rand had it right, and is the Will (Atlas Shrugged) that was given to me by this One, who beared the mark... I hadn't read a novel in my life, but this one suggested this out of 1000's of books read being isolated in a library, outcasted so young 
..... Two sentenced I remember...
"The worst guilt is undeserved guilt"
"A viler evil than to kill a man is to sell him suicide as an act of virtue" This was the only way I could relate it.. And probably should not be explained any more.. But to feel this, and know that it is not this One's fault, and even though my family was hopeless for me, I had no choice... I made no decisions, only trust and faith, no room for anything else....
-----A beginning, while going through all this... Until now.
After a session wih my psychologist one monday... I cried for 3 days straight and new very little about this community, but I received emails from Visionforce... Selling to Honor, or Hopelessness, To me they go hand in hand...
---- This was when I came here.. This is a point where I have gotten to maybe 2-3 times in my life... This was the Voice... I had no intention's...
3/17/2009 4:45pm to ?Visionforce?
You fool, stop selling this to people. It is not necessary for this type of audience. You are pulling in too big of fish for your line. Intuition only speaks so often, this is not the way. It is in humane, to claim this integrity on this medium of exchange. You cast a shadow on yourself, and those who walk in them. You treat one means of exchange lesser than another. You speak to One, not individually. If you want to inspire you do so without money. You mock such courage. Would you speak is these many tongues, to children? You only weaken those who follow.
Let me tell you a story of my own. Of the courage I challenge you on. I believe in one, the one challenges and smears my integrity in front of those I love. I beg for the ones I love, for my love would mean nothing if I did not believe in this one. For if I do not I know no other would take such a challenge. I have no money and those raised me, soak my tears of pain yet they know not why. I have no money for this one did not. My intuition lead to death from pain for I accept this guilt, to rightfully forgive. Awakened yet another time, but I mustn't take the call. I give this strength yet again for this one. Awaken again, for I seek the path and the clarity of love for all. For another may understand this love. I use this strength for you tickled my passion, so I may speak this to you. I will beg for the strength so I may go on feebly at 23, so I may beg to serve out my life in the shadows of those before me. I claim no religion, for I honor this love for all. To you I speak the name Albert Einstein, so you may truly see the pain he suffered and the love he gave, to walk the path before him. Pray my light will radiate to those whom follow you. So they may understand your cause, and see past your methods.
If it was not for this courage I asked I would be speaking gibberish.
Good day & goodbye.
-----
Everything else, all the characters, manifested out of this... For me, my posts, was WILL... I cannot act out of selfishness, i cannot feel pride... I cannot bear to see this world any longer... My days consist of building an algorythm for a post from "dancing, or moving around".. .... Then that energy creates the flow for all the shadows to channel through...
Integrity is not a word to me. It defines me... "Fate made me an authority myself..."
Einstein, was probably the bravest spirit ever known... He was a guide, just like that One. Although, there was still some mystery in the world at his time... Still work he could do in solitude to not see such a world... If you really go through his quotes, you will see that he laid the path for this spirit consuming me... Every passion of mine, helping people, and learning! I am not permitted Externally, outside my mind... This tells me that it is time! No more pain...
I believe in this community so much to lay at the mercy of all humility. judgements, for it is the only way... But this medium of exchange and communication, takes out all life, and allows sharks and the wolves to prey anywhere and on anyone.. All these animals are part of us.. We imagine stories aound them.. they are One with us... .....?...So after all that passion for life.. Will's me to dream it, but not have it... To see the path, but not touch it... It must be given... That is all i can say...
--Afterthought
I am going to build within my mind, new dimensions of my White Heart. So others may come to understand intuitively, through Consiousness...
If anyone is inspired, and wishes to assist me with this, let's see what this mind can do... I do anything to inspire another... I would be willing to take away all my senses, 1 by 1.... One hand, one armed whatever... Ambidextrous... 
<<highlight left click send and assist. Wouldn't that just be bitching..
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But of Course
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to Restraints? WILL ... You have to catch V at the moment... I missed it...
We donnot need any money... All we have to do is humiliate people... The answer is just the nature of a joke... These are only hints...
If children were do save the world, they would play the roles just fine... If children were to create a business, they would use characters.. Maybe we can set this example? I mean, c'mon everyone would think that if we just boldly announced "We are on a missson to save the world".. A game! All companies take part, in one way or another.. Think about this...
the 12 locations, we setup camp... That is where people come to learn, and meditate.. I would even go so far as to say that, we should just create the Web of Consciousness Holy geometry of the Chakras and the earth... What is the power of a belief?? If we believe we are commuunicating from anywhere we may come to live it.. INSPIRATION is all we need...
THE BEST AND MOST OBVIOUS MARKET IMAGE IS NO TECHNOLOGY... The curiosity of us stating that we are saving the world without money, will light the way.. Donations easy... Every person that wants peace, who is hopeless... LOVE
How many people would give all they have to "garden the earth". To Love, those aside them, who are realizing what they have been missing all along... The Hopeless are everything.. Because they will still believe.. They have gone back to that innocence... That is how Jesus is resurrected.. It is just energy.. That spirit of Jesus, is attracted to that energy... Because there is belief...
The question that contributed to my mental death, "to give hope to the hopeless even though you are helpless yourself".. Is a moral question that I don't think anyone could answer... Afterwards, i wrote some notes, and as the days passed i lost all will to make any decisions.. So I was put into a hospital... As soon as I heard and saw these people, and the helplessness in the hospitals themselves... My path was set... I could not turn around... I read and read and read... and eventually just stopped.. Realized, all I have.. That It should not matter where I am, I can solve anything... So I began to mimic a blackhole, and hold images in my head, of far beyond this time... The Vibrational frequency of all this, is inspiring to Life.. Infinite creativity came forth.. names of people.. whatever.. Everything was too easy, and then I came to the end of the road.. Choice. The inscriptions of this system compromises our only choices we have. A set way of language, or doing things, but because of the misconception of time we never really reflect... The root is the only way, as Stephen R Covey highly emphasized..
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By Putting the Blame on the 'Atypical'...
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by JoeBlow in response to Restraints? WILL...one avoids her/his own shallowness and the inability to sustain the level of the exchange.
Hi-5 to Autonomy.
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Translator Button
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Restraints? WILLI have just thought of another interesting feature we could add to this site:
A translator button! – the equivalent of those earpieces you see the members of the United Nations wearing so that they can each hear what is being said in their own language.
I think I have demonstrated my attempts to understand you, Autonomy, but I am really battling. 
I have even attempted to mimic you as you said that this is how you can be understood, but that does not seem to have worked either. 
Having read your post a few times, I am still not able to make sense of it. If I had a translator button I would push it now.
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I'll try
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Translator ButtonLinda, I don't know if I am any good at such translation, but I do enjoy trying, and I have an unusually high tolerance for ambiguity. As you know, I often don't know what I am saying myself half the time. Perhaps Autonomy simply does that more than half the time. I may be a good candidate for "translator". But I am tired now, and will re-read A's above comments and will return later with an attempted translation. I will probably let it soak in, and sleep on it. But I hope to come back in the next few days with some ideas to translate the themes being expressed by Autonomy.
Having said that, there is one impression I am getting. One theme may be authenticity (can that be what "autonomy" really means? or another, more favorable, angle of it?). Interesting to think that authenticity may require (eventually, at least) openess and communion, rather than only agency and independence.
But the authentic self would certainly be alienated, cut off, from this "civil"-ized world of ours. Perhaps acknowledging this outcast phenomena is the start of authenticity becoming eventually integrated with civilization and "civility" in communication.
Is it possible to apply awareness to authenticity/autonomy in such away that it outgrows mere divergence? I think it might be. It is a possibility that is passing through my mind, but I will, as I said, "sleep on it".
Darrell
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Translations
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to I'll tryLinda, The best I could do is some translations here and there, not one solid piece of translating. Way below, I feel confident in identifying Autonomy's articulation of Covey's inside-out idea and feel he/she is speaking from an inner core perspective (deep in the upper left quad) and describing how thinks look from there. In fact, what he says resonates with my own (real or imagined) inner core experiences. I tried to mix out-there poetic phrases with coherent points/phrases, but seemed to go out there more than down to earth - until in later comments when I reeled it in. I do try to communicate both in (toward the misty core) and out (in the dry-land clarity of "things"), and I do try to advocate the healthy role of balance and of attempting some clearer communications within this community.
Perhaps the most interesting "translation" was the way I did an "acting through" (psychodrama) of Autonomy's concept of living-as-channel. I provided a link somewhere in this mix of dialogue, for you to explore that translating-by-doing comment which is housed on a post where Autonomy visited me (my only visitor, probably due to my own obscure writing style!).
Anyway, I was willing to be a mediator or translator. And I tried. How successful was I? Not sure. But I enjoyed the process - the "mind experiment".
Darrell
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"Orange" block-user button?
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Grey Drane in response to Exercising restraintLinda wrote: The truth of the matter is, a lot of what you were saying was not being heard because a number of members would simply take an orange approach and use technology by pushing the “Block User” button”.
Could you expand on this thought, Linda? Why do you say this is an "orange approach"? I mean, I can see why it would be a "not-green" approach, but I'm not sure I see exactly why you call it orange and what else you might be implying in that assessment.
Personally, I find it to be a rather elegant solution. I particularly like that, even if you've blocked a user, you can still see when they've made a comment and can choose to view those comments on a thread-by-thread basis, without totally unblocking the person.
Anyway...
All the best,
g.d:
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An Integral Solution?
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to "Orange" block-user button?Hi Grey
In my opinion, when one contributor to a site constantly invades almost every discussion with comments that are what I have called “mumbo-jumbo” the other contributors have to make some decision as to how they are going to respond.
Here is my take on some possible responses:
The block-user button is, as you stated, obviously not a green approach. A green outlook would more than likely think all is fine and all need to be included. And there are times when this is true.
The red in us, would probably come right out and attack this user, verbally and maybe even in an abusive fashion. We would probably start sending each other private messages to stand together in facing this “enemy”.
An amber outlook would probably feel the need for and maybe demand some order from the bigger group, especially the moderators of the site.
The rational orange outlook would be to make use of the technological “block-user” button we have at our disposal.
I too have found that an elegant solution in the past and have made use of it. The only thing I discovered on one occasion not so long ago, was that a particular user was writing about me in a blog, not a comment, which I did not see at first because I had blocked him. This blog was deleted at a later stage. I first thought he had deleted it but doubted that afterwards. I then hoped that it was deleted by the moderator – thank goodness would be my amber response to that. Many forums have been left because members have felt that it was like being at a party where the host refused to show to the door an unruly, inappropriate, abusive, dominating guest after they themselves had tried everything they could to get him/her to leave.
All of these responses are possible, and they are there to be called upon when appropriate – that is the whole concept of transcend and include.
Finding the right balance in communication on this site is the theme of this blog and it was in this vain that I responded to the user I felt was being inappropriate.
Thanks for your question. Maybe you or others have further ideas on how to encourage optimal discussion and conversation in a fashion which avoids the integral shadow of being snobbish.
All the best
Linda
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Decentralized moderation?
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Grey Drane in response to An Integral Solution?OK, thanks Linda. I can agree with your characterization of the block-user button being a "rational" (and so "orange") reaction. I was concerned that you might have been using the altitude label in more of a demeaning way. But I think now that we're both pretty much on the same page.
This whole issue had me thinking about a blog post I read a couple of weeks ago:
Decentralized moderation is the chat room savior (by Robert "scobleizer" Scoble)
This article was written specifically about FriendFeed, but I think there are some interesting points to ponder and perhaps apply here to Integral Life, making any "Integral tweaks" that may be necessary.
Cheers,
g.d:
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Real names?
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Grey Drane in response to Decentralized moderation?BTW, what's the policy on using our real names here? I had thought, way back when, that we were going to be strongly encouraged to use real names. It seems to me that would go a long way towards creating a sense of accountability in our interactions here.
~G
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Real names and decentralized moderation
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Decentralized moderation?Thanks Grey for introducing two points that could definitely promote optimal and meaningful discussion.
I totally agree with you about the use of real names and was also under the impression when I joined up that that was what we are encouraged to do.
I am no computer boff (I seem to learn something new every day), and so I was really fascinated by your link to Decentralized Moderation.
This was posted on April 20 so it is obviously talking about up-to-date happenings.
I would very much appreciate some feedback from this site on this issue.
Has it been considered?
What are the “for” and “against” arguments for introducing such a system?
What do other users on this forum think of this idea?
From my understanding, our “block-user” button prevents us from seeing the person we block. It does not prevent the person we are blocking from seeing us. “This takes away attack surface. They can no longer see your items and can no longer post spam to them (or anything else).”
I did notice however, the following point being made: “Why can’t this system be applied to blogs? It can be, once everyone is on a common identity system, like Facebook Connect. Until then, though, getting rid of someone who is disruptive is too difficult, which is why blog comments generally are sucking more and more lately in comparison with friendfeed’s comments and also why you need a really complex spam filtering system, like those that Akismet makes (such a system is not required on friendfeed, at least not yet because the spammers haven’t figured out how to get past the decentralized moderation system yet).”
Would anyone more knowledgeable about a common identity system like to comment? The number of comments on this blog are an indication to me that such issues are definitely on a number of peoples’ minds right now and I for one would like to see this forum go from strength to strength.
Best wishes
(-: Linda
Postscript: I loved the comment made in one of the links and find it so apt here:
"I realized that day that we were facing a new predator in the jungle, and if we didn't adapt -- and quickly -- it would be having us for dinner," he said.
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Common identity and blogging
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Grey Drane in response to Real names and decentralized moderationHi Linda,
I think what they're talking about as applied to blogs refers to the broader blogosphere, i.e. across all of the various systems one could use to create a blog. In this "unregulated" blogging space, you can often leave comments without even logging in to the site hosting the blog, so there's no effective way to block anyone. But if one common identity system were to become predominant (or if common identity systems were to effectively interconnect), you could block an individual's common identity in a manner that would take effect wherever you might happen to bump into that person.
So I don't think the concern about a common identity system applies (much?) to blogs here at Integral Life.
Cheers,
g.d:
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Peer Pressure
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Real names and decentralized moderationLinda, IT to allow for positive peer pressure? That would be a form of what I call Automatic Regulation Externally in my (Social) Regulation Matrix. The culture regulates itself with peer presure, informally (individually, "de-centralized) regulating itself in a way that needs less "control" in the usual sense of having rigid control over someone or something.
I place ARE in the lower left quad of the Regulation Matrix. The RM itself is a break-out from the LR quad of the Integral Matrix where political science is used to regulate a social system. The break-out matrix, the Regulation Matrix, also contains "Automatic Internal Regulation" in which empathy for others and love of righteousness or social justice more or less automatically regulates each participant's behavior (this, of course, is the goal, but requires a lot of personal evolution to be able to rely on it as the primary means of social regulation). "Externally Controlled Regulation is the most intrusive and least sustainable (incites rebellion) form of social regulation. Controlled Internal Regulation is the kind of personal discipline you are asking bloggers such as Autonomy and myself to use more of. It appeals to responsibility and is a higher priority way to go with regulation, but it does pave a path of neurosis (sp?) and addictive (acting out the shadow side) behaviors which cause problems in regulation. I believe the community/cultural approach of ARE (mores, peer pressure, group norms, group ways) is probably a good stepping stone toward the most desirable (least energy-wasting) form of social regulation, AIR (Automatic Internal Regulation). I used "AIR" to be a grace-like breathing in of fresh air, as the highest form of regulation. Unfortunately it is also an on-down-the-road form to a large extent. In the meantime, the peer pressure of the decentralized mediation techniques and technologies would seem to be a bridge to the ideal form of AIR.
If you are interested, I will provide you with more details about the proposed "Regulation Matrix" and how I see it as fitting in with the Integral Quads. I used it as a way of thinking about governing a model interfaith (I prefer "transfaith") community in the book I am working on, The Marketing of Virtue .
If I am lucky, given my thick and obscure writing tendencies, two or three people will read this book when finished. But I will complete it anyway, for the heaven of it!
Below is a very brief insight about desirable characteristics of a community. I suppose we could use this to assess our own online community here. As you know, I am particularly interested in a giftscape, gift identification and gift development and gift utilization aspect of a community. That is the 4th characteristic listed below.
"An optimally healthy community would seem to have certain characteristics which less healthy communities lack. Todd thought of 5 main things that a healthy community needs to be: 1. aware (citizens who are educated, accurately informed, self-aware, and aware of healthy vs. unhealthy relationship dynamics), 2. challenged/motivated, 3. friendly/supportive, 4. gift-utilizing (community identifies and finds a way to use each citizen’s gifts/talents), and 5. simple/safe (each citizen is relatively free of mental overload and fear-invoking stimuli, and is provided a safe and healthy environment that helps him/her maintain a peaceful state of mind). A community with these qualities would be a breeding ground for human virtues."
Thanks for adding to awareness (of the need for balance and social consideration) and to challenge (caring confrontation of shooting-from-the-hips "newbie" bloggers who may compromise the group's quality of thought and/or discussion). Are the 5 characteristics sound? Are they the main, "first order", factors of a quality community? Are there other first order factors that were overlooked. It was the best I could imagine at the time, so I went with that insight as a way to structure the fictional community in the book.
Great post that touched a true nerve in the community, Darrell
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Can't the system effect the balance?
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Exercising restraintLinda, I think you make some valid points, but can't we as a community find a way to both process free-associative, divergent, thought and to invite convergent thought from the same participant? In a poetic "gift box" of social organization (according to various leanings or aptitudes or "gifts") such divergent thought might be both appreciated and utilized. Not so in the one size fits all format.
For example, I can get something useful from poetic logic, even outlandish forms of it. I can gravitate to the poetic box/group of IL (if it were so organized, using tags/links like facebook does). I can then act as representive of the poetic logic group, and then attempt to communicate in a more left-brain sort of way with others who happen to fall in different quads. Yes, I suspect that gifts fall into one or more quads. If this is so, then our community needs to incorporate the quads into a gift assessment and social coordination, in our own community. This is a system approach to the "problem" (a lower right quad approach?). A Demming-like approach.
The representative or laison from the different gift groups could prompt occassional balanced communication within his or her group, and they would be more likely to listen, because they would be on a similar frequency to start with. Social modeling needs both prestige and similarity. Poetic logic folk are similar enough to be able to reach the gift-group's members in order to softly shape each member to offer short bursts of more "down to earth" translations of the group's thoughts, in order to communicate from the poet corner to the intellectual corners of IL.
Also, even poetry requires the balance you speak of. So, a fellow poet could pull off such encouragement to balance divergent thought with some convergent thought (within the frame of poetic thought), without creating as much potential defensiveness or fear from a "bird" of similar "feathers".
Just some thoughts about different ways that balance might be achieved. Or perhaps I am somewhat by-passing balance and going straight to "integration". The system may be able to creat balance by becomming better integrated - in this case, with better differentiation of "gifts" or personal "tendencies" or (Jung's) "psychological types".
Darrell
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[Comment Deleted]
Posted May 1st, 2009 by admin in response to Shadow Meter
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You must be reading minds
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Steve Redmond in response to You must be reading mindsAnother yes vote for the "Shadow Meter". I would find it very interesting and think it would help greatly with the shadow practice that is so important to an ILP.
I recall an Integral Naked clip a couple years back with Ken Wilber saying something to the effect, "you think you know your shadow, like anger that is being repressed and you just need to get in touch with it, but you really, really don't know your shadow. You can't, otherwise it wouldn't be your shadow." That has always stuck with me, so any help in that regard I think would be a good thing, even if it might be a little painful.
--
Steve Redmond
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At the very least we hear each other
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Matthew Flowers in response to The Lower Right's ShadowHello Linda
I love the additional positive you found. Interrupting is a serious roadblock on the path to true communication.
I can appreciate this conversation from many different perspectives. From the not impossible but definitely futuristic desire to literally plug our individual consciousness into a group consciousness to the more pragmatic online 3-2-1 you bring up and the shadow meter Robb mentioned. I think if any group would be welcoming of a "shadow meter" it would be this one, but that would obviously be ideal and not necessarily indicative of the real world. Please put me on record for trying it. I also (half-jokingly) think Robb is mistaking being in the flow for reading minds, although they may very well be synonymous.
I am also drawn back to your original point about finding balance between the Ascending and Descending Spirit(s) and how holographic this scenario is, meaning that even the tiny slice of non-dual reality that is this online community there is a playing out of the much larger tension between the movements of the One and the Many. It just fascinates me to no end! I hope I, We and It (the Integral Community) can find the best way to walk that tightrope.
Matthew
--
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Walking the tightrope
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to The Lower Right's ShadowMatthew, I too am fascinated that even in “the tiny slice of non-dual reality that is this online community there is a playing out of the much larger tension between the movements of the One and the Many”.
I have been thinking about the topic of online communication throughout today and am quite amazed at what is developing out of our conversation. There is certainly much more to think about and work out than what I originally envisaged.
For instance, I have made the statement that time zones do not prohibit our conversation. That still holds as being true, but I have since realized to what extent the time zone factor does influence our communication. It often requires patience on the part of the blogger. When I post something, for instance, most of the members on this site are often sleeping and vice versa. If I do not bear this in mind, I am tempted to think that people are hesitant to reply.
The time zone factor also gives me the opportunity to correct something when I realize I have made a mistake in a statement. How often do I do this in an everyday situation?
Over the last few days I have been going online at various times of my days and evenings and have slowly acquired a feel for who is going online when in relation to my time zone. I also, for example imagine that there could possibly be a really interesting show on TV in the States on Wednesday evenings (may “American Idol”?) as there seem to be very few posts posted when I wake up on Thursdays. The other thought I have had is that this could be the night when new offerings are made to be watched on this site but I haven’t followed up on that yet.
Only once since I started blogging here have I had the experience of being in the flow of a comment, response, comment, response communication, where responses kept popping up shortly after I clicked the “submit” button. Maybe the topic had something to do with it, but I cannot ignore the time-zone factor.
Patience is required in all conversation otherwise the tendency is there to interrupt. Rephrasing what I say so that the other can better understand what I am saying promotes meaningful communication. My online experience is certainly helping me practice these qualities.
“It just fascinates me to no end! I hope I, We and It (the Integral Community) can find the best way to walk that tightrope”.
Thanks again for your input.
Best wishes
Linda
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Technology
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to Walking the tightropeWhat would the lesson of technology be?
What would lesson of talking be? Edgar Cayce was a mute, and healed himself and was also a prophet who could heal if he knew the location.. It would seem as though we are all doing this unconsciously or consciously...
The Choice to SPeak.
The Choice to Listen.
The Choice to perceive as you wish.
What is the Lesson in all this... This matter of Choice... The Matrix, compelling movie... We could be in it right now and not know it...
Stephen R. Covey had a lot to say about this, as he was fascinated by Viktor Frankyl...
What is the lesson of Choice?
This is everything, and has everything to with everything.
To understand God, I would imagine he would like to see his creation come to be One with Life... To nurture life, like a mother would...
If we did not speak while raising children, instead just express.. A smile, laughter, all those emotions.. And with them comes an understanding of the chakras and such, as well as their body...No toys, they are around animals, and other life.. Learning from them.. Mimicing, would probably become natural.<<Seagulls....And traveling around the world, would be good too!
When I stressed that to communciate to me you must use character, humor, love, appreciation... all these things are the Golden Mean of communication... The phenomenoms... This is all you need to raise any sort of life...
What right do we have to plan for a future of unborn Innocence. If we are bound by a system of time, this really does not seem fair at all.... Choice.. Dualism...
Please think about this, because where I am at, this is it... There is other things to say but, if I said them I would not allow others to really come to see it for themselves... All of my writing followed that.. The intuitiveness, conveys belief, that others will come to see it...
An idea after every post! Inspire ONE ANOTHER!! if you feel you are not creative, then just fly with me, i will find it in you... baby... IMAGERY in past posts..::: "you shall transcend.. {?Comunity Structure for such statements, about this? all should be aware of this. So that we dont become blinded.} 
It is analyzed and goes through the winds and we capture the relative to life essence.... I NEED SEAGULLS! I give you everything.. (Arrogance Check? We build each other Integrally, by saying things we think... Jesus Linda, you see what you do to me?! ALL OF YOU! who understand me.... This is setting an example! HONOR!! + inadaquacy = character! realtime!
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........
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Technology
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$1 for the one with Hearts in the Eyes
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to ........ 
You know you brought this out of me I know you do... You baited me with those beautiful pictures.. C'Mon Linda! How would you like to spend your life at those 12 places... To show people this beauty, and energy... How to embrace it? And when they leave they can set up their own place to Garden... Part of this Integral Leadership training...
I want you to try and envision: The inspiration to jumpstart a.. nation!! i got one!!.. Children communicating with life... Learning from it and teaching hopeless people or others who have been chasing the illusions we all have for so long.....
If you tickle my passion enough, you may just get it...
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LOLinda
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by steven martini in response to ........I applaud the Autonomy/Linda Lattice you've constructed. It clarifies much of these posts!
What strange and lovely rooms we walk in this integral mansion...
:-)
--
∞ 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 ∞
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It goes way back...
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to LOLindaMary Linda made a post... About the Ego and it being too late... Then I make a little family... out of that... HOOK LINE AND SUNK!
This was shortly after http://integrallife.com/member/john-warner/profile
I say something like... "Please speak more of your sympathy for human freedom..."
Then the birds came in... SOMEONE PUNKED THE SHIT OUT OF ME! YOU GUYS SET ME UP!! I'LL NEVER BELIEVE IT!
Mark say "We can cook this bird..."
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[Comment Deleted]
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by admin in response to Technology
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I talk .........
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to [Comment Deleted]........to the trees!
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Elements
Posted May 2nd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to I talk .........The elements! that is good !
They relate to emotion connected to chakras... So we learn yes!?
WhAt We DoO?!
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Posted May 2nd, 2009 by admin in response to Elements
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Respect
Posted May 3rd, 2009 by Autonomy in response to [Comment Deleted]Again, people can just skip it. People can just tell me.
My posts, also have something to say.. Consider I am aware of everything that I do, and there is a reason for it. Others have came to this sight and complained about the writing because it was too long... Everyone needs to be able to connect..
Through my posts others can find ways...
"Free To Be Fully Human"
There is very little Human/Life to this website...
Understand that there is much concern on my part. Far greater than something like holyer. Consider that there is value in seeing it another way.. perhaps a connection to understanding me...
If you want to stress that point, then make a post about it.. There is much to consider about that in it and of itself.. If people continue to look at me as a individual then they will miss the point.. It is also a reflection of themselves... I am a complete Worldview thinker... I am an example...
Much respect to you..
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Wisdom comes from many sources
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to [Comment Deleted]R/S, I didn't catch on to the possibility that this post was a critique of actual IL offerings, although I did wonder if the "autonomy" might be in reference to the blogger (whom I happen to enjoy communicating with, perhaps because I too am somewhat of a "wierdo" or an "off the top of my head"-er ). Or was the use of the word "Autonomy" not intended to refer to Autonomy, the blogger, at all? Linda, if you can see this, midst the many responses here, then would you clarify?
As far as I'm concerned, if the whole post was in response to the blogger Autonomy's communication style, then it is more evidence of the need to socially organize IL along the the lines of different "gifts". I have the gift of right-brain logic, and don't require even coherence at times, but enjoy the art of sifting through potential patterns of unfolding thought. I am thinking that the quads could be used to group gifts. Autonomy, at least in terms of how he or she presents himself/herself here, is mostly in the upper right quad, beautiful subjectivity, like poetry. I have been longing for more poetry here at IL. I share the integral vision, but aren't there more poets who also share that vision. Are we all strictly intellectuals here? Lighten up, man (or woman)! Or deepen up (as is often the case of poetry). If properly channeled, the poetic logic can help counterbalance the flatland which may have crept into our intellectualizing. There is a niche for Autonomy's (and my own) free association type of communication. Perhaps it is up to IL to find that niche - to work as a community to channel that "gift". I believe Demming has it right. Don't blame the individual, look to the system and at what it might do to correct the so-called "problem".
Again, if this post is even about the communication style of a particular blogger. I still am not up to speed on that social angle, as I am not particularly gifted in understanding social situations or "rules".
Darrell
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Toward the Inner Core, Less Anthropocentric? More Transpersonal?
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to ElementsAutonomy, Up there somewhere in these comments you mention Covey's inside-out approach ("root"), in the context of going inside to a "blackhole" where time is gone or different. Yes, I have set foot briefly at or near that place within, and your description of the differences between there and the more surface levels we call "reality" resonates with me.
Now, to these elements. Yes, they seem also more representive of the deeper self, as they pass through matter, are more energy like. "Don't take this personal"! Less anthropocentric (sp?), more like nature, or, as you have said several times, "the Garden". To revisit this inner Garden or source of manifestation is, ironically, also the liberation, or a liberation. So much artificiality has come along with civilization, since the Tree of Knowledge...
Manifestation at the deeper and earlier stage is liberation from this world's artificial codification. It is to become as a child or fountain ("flowing deep and wide") . Things change toward the core. Less matter-like, more pure energy-like. Elements passing through "human". Channeling energy - the wind, the fire/sun, the air/space, the earth, the waters and mists of life. Less human there, but flows out into more fully human here, out where egos and minds communicate. Your wierd language is the almost-ineffable talk of spirit. Babble on.
But I do see some fairly encouraging ability in you to speak more plainly also at times, from the middle ground of self, closer to the crust, the outer layers of manifestation where codification occurs routinely. I saw this clearer, less mystical, speaking/writing from you in a comment or two above. Shorter and more easy to understand comments. I think that also is good. Continue also to speak more clearly at times, free from meaningful babble.
Balance is not our enemy after all. Nothing can take away from the truth sensed in or toward the very core of self - where "autonomy" is all of us (transpersonal) and beyond us humans (non-anthropocentric). Toward the faster-than-thought master element of God's Mind. Now, we can afford to (and are "free" to) take out the trash and clip our toe nails and get new sparkplugs for our cars and peck our loved-ones on their cheek, with a big wet kiss! Now that we have flown, we can walk.
Dear Autonomy, you are not behind the woodshed. You are behind the smokehouse (find poem, "Pink", way up there somewhere) where things within are "cured". Hollyhocks itch, but they are beautiful - like your spirit.
Love, Darrell
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Time zones are one of many factors
Posted May 6th, 2009 by Matthew Flowers in response to Walking the tightropePatience is required in all conversation otherwise the tendency is there to interrupt. Rephrasing what I say so that the other can better understand what I am saying promotes meaningful communication. My online experience is certainly helping me practice these qualities.
Your words certainly ring true on this website. The importance of patience is paramount in two ways. One is being patient for your turn to speak and not forcing it and two is patience waiting for a response after you have spoken. The second scenario is so common in this mode of discourse. Waiting on different time zones to come into their respective productive phase makes it difficult to get a response when we want it. As another example, I have not had access to the internet for a couple of days and there were things I wanted to say that I couldn't, and people waiting on responses from me that never came.
When all of the various factors of the LR come together and we are truly all present (which is rare in and of itself) we must also account for different perspectives and altitudes in the UL that makes real conversation almost impossible, but this is not the most difficult roadblock. The most difficult roadblock is our individual passions or said in another way our different Types. Indeed, one can observe the cognitive awareness slant on the majority of my posts, it is truly my passion. It is difficult to engage someone in their passions when my own are striving for the limelight. I keep wanting to say;
"Yes, yes that is all very interesting but isn't it more awe inspiring when...".
Which brings me back to the importance of patience that you brought up and how this community can help me to practice it.
Matthew
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Types
Posted May 6th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Time zones are one of many factorsHi Matthew
The most difficult roadblock is our individual passions or said in another way our different Types. Indeed, one can observe the cognitive awareness slant on the majority of my posts, it is truly my passion.
Now I think I understand your profile pic – it illustrates the “cognitive awareness slant”!
It is also interesting to note that you feel Types are the most difficult roadblock to communication on a site like this one. Others of course might feel differently because of their individual passions.
This has really got me thinking. Are these roadblocks passions, shadows or subpersonalities or all of these or maybe even something else? Engaging in them could obviously also promote either autonomy or community, depending on the topic at hand.
Guess I will just have to be patient and wait for your take on this.
(-: I discovered this morning that this is a smiley from the southern hemisphere – coming from South Africa it is obviously appropriate for me to use it here, but today it is also illustrates an attempt to take a left brain approach to meet you in your cognitive awareness.
Best wishes
Linda
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Smilies from a different perspective
Posted May 6th, 2009 by Matthew Flowers in response to TypesI can see that other's might feel differently about what the major roadblocks for communication, depending on their individual passions. Types are the last line of defense for confusion. In the course of my life I have refused wisdom from types unattractive to me, as I have been refused.
We meet somewhere conducive to communication. We are more or less at the same altitude. Our subject matter is relevant and correlated. While we cannot be aware of our shadow explicitly it's at least possible to be aware that we do have a shadow. We have all of these things going for us and yet we can fail to have effective communication. I don't understand how that is possible without different types. Some types can speak through that bullshit, while others can hear through the extra noise, but most are at a loss as to why they can't convey their point or comprehend another. Some types don't even care to be understood they just want to talk and wink at the few who do understand them.
Pluralism tells us that all of these types are equal and we can't make a judgment regarding any of them, but WE can. If you don't believe that WE can rank some types as more inclusive than WE are not integrally informed.
Matthew
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Eyes wheezing!
Posted May 6th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Smilies from a different perspectivePluralism tells us that all of these types are equal and we can't make a judgment regarding any of them, but WE can. If you don't believe that WE can rank some types as more inclusive then WE are not integrally informed.
Couldn’t agree more. WE can. But there are a lot of I’s out there who are very much threatened by such statements. ;)
Once again we return to the balance of liberation and manifestation.
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Proprioceptive Thinking Exercise?
Posted May 14th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to The Lower Right's ShadowLinda, I am not clear about the 3,2,1 technique, but picked up that it would be a prompt to help the projector (the writer) to look at his or her projection (the written) and to become more aware of what the projector was fully up to when it projected (wrote the particular statement). What you mentioned seemed to be a type of online self-interpretation, not unlike traditional depth psychotherapies in which the client can become more conscious of subconscious contributions to his or her thoughts, feelings, and actions, and then may be able to address the subconscious ("shadow") stuff in more conscious and intentional ways (usually with a therapist helping/prompting - could the community and the communication devices act as a kind of group therapist?).
It is a fascinating possibility. To fully integrate, at some point we will need to learn to look at our own minds as they unfold, in order to have the "two-way" street of thinking that I talked about in earlier IL discussions. Interesting to match these ideas to Bohm's "proprioceptive thought". One characteristic of proprioceptive thought is that it is aware of itself (regular thought is famously unaware of itself, according to Bohm), but does not identify all the moves and steps - it seems non-verbal and less definitive. Reminds me of the "pattern thinking" I attribute to right-brain specialization.
For all the unproductive noise you attribute to Autonomy's style of communication (or non-communication, whichever the case may be!), here is one interesting fruit of it - "channeling" as one right-brain sort of skill which may help us master two-way thinking, thought being aware of itself, proprioceptive thought, or integration of input and output, etc.
Autonomy mentioned channelling as a skill and value. The following link follows through with that postitive valuation of channeling. Somehow or another, I ended up "acting through" the concept of channeling. Is this communication between Autonomy and myself? Who knows?
But some sort of new experience and mild transformation appeared to have happened as an apparent result of his and my interaction online. The mind works in mysterious ways.
In becomming more civil and on-task (which is perfectly fine to do), we need to make sure such strange forms of communication or energy exchange are not compromised. Liberated minds (regardless of the sustainability of the "freedom" or "free" association) may produce unexpectedly positive results at times.
Could IL have a space called Free Association? Those who are interested could join the Free Association, where it is OK to free associate. It would be a form of community "channeling" of the desire (and gift?) of free associating. Or it could be called The Couch (in referrence to Freud's couch where he had client's free associate in order to reveal the contents of the shadow mind). Here is the link about channeling: Channel
I'll let you decide whether this is the "translation" I proposed to do of Autonomy's communications. It may be "it"(translation), or it may be part of "it".
Darrell
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"Monad" was, I believe, Liebnitz (sp?)
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to I couldn't agree moreMathew, I totally agree with your comment. But I think it was Liebnitz (sp?), rather than Whitehead who used the word/concept of monad, a kind of unfolding blob of energy, as I recall. Whitehead's idea was something to the effect of a "strand" of awareness. Both monads and strands were, to the best of my knowledge, unfolding little buggers and were dynamic, processsy, energy-based, sort of things. Again, to the best of my non-scholarly, knowledge as a student of philosophy (second major as an undergrad, but I was not very scholarly or precise at the time, nor now) many years ago.
In response to the following sub-comment you made (We can conceive of a grand discussion, but without modulation it's chaos and unless the modules themselves have a way of communicating amongst themselves it will fall apart. It's a house of cards. We can respond to media presented by the Integral Life staff and we can respond to the thoughts posted by the individuals in our community but we need more. We need a communal way of making connections among all the posts and blogs that is distinct from the other LR structures we currently use. We need an Integral form of communication that transcends and includes these posts, blogs and media.) , I would suggest that the quads be applied to individual natural aptitudes or "gifts", in addition to Ken's application of them to "knowledge" domains and to "values spheres". This would allow birds of a feather to flock together in a way that would maximize understanding. I have noticed that my right brain poetic logic is often like spitting into the wind. But I am surely not the only poet philosopher or poet in IL.
A facebook-like social organizing internet tagging could direct me to the poet-logic "gifted" folks in IL, as well as the folks who have a proclivity to philosophize well beyond the "known". In our random communication process currently, we are often left barking up the wrong tree, based on responding to blog posts that have titles which glitter, but are not necessarily the "gold" that each of our "gifts" seek.
But there is also a danger in doing what I just proposed. We need scheduled blogs that intentionally bring the different gifts together in discussion, so as to integrate the quads as they naturally express themselves in individuality and in IL sub-groups. The gift-groupings need a means to cross-fertilize and to be recognized by each other.
Don't you imagine that gifts tend to fall into one or the other of the quads, or limited mixes thereof? If that is the case, then we, as a community, can begin to use the quads in a human resource sort of way which may identify and find niches for various "gifts" (aptitudes) which might be related to different mental frequencies we each inherited at birth or manifestation or incarnation.
Darrell
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Integral Shadow
Posted May 7th, 2009 by BalderI was just thinking, I've been a member of many different online forums over the past 10 years, and it is only on Integral Institute ones that I've encountered members who disrupt the discussions by posting regular nonsensical, indecipherable posts. Looking at the jacket of one of my Integral Books, where it says, "Making Sense of Everything," I wonder amusedly if this is not a manifestation of a little Integral shadow here... :-)
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Directness
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Integral ShadowDear Balder
Thank you so much for being outspoken and direct.
I found your comment liberating.
Keep well
(-: Linda
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Re: Directness
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Balder in response to Directness:-) It was just something that made me chuckle this morning and I wanted to share it.
Regarding your opening post, I love how you framed it and applied these movements to the issues of membership and responsibility. Wonderful.
B.
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The Altitude of the Integral Reader...(edited...)
Posted May 7th, 2009 by avoid in response to Integral ShadowBalder, and why can you not own that shadow yourself?
IL does not want to remove my posts (and it is my right to have them removed) and yet I just noticed that they deactivated the 'goose id' as well. In other words, they don't want me to write and yet they seem to want to suck my posts to entertain their site!
If you go by the books Balder...based on your own interpretation and altitude of what the books say, you can not claim to go anywhere else. You are imprisoned by your books.
You seemed bothered by Mark's comment about me in private.
What caught my attention on your private reply to him was firstly, how Mark's comment about me bothered you, and secondly you said something like "nobody can be so necessary in the community" and yet you also said "the restaurants that you and your wife visit fail once you guys stop visiting."
In the very same paragraph!
I thought that was quite a strange contradictory observation from your part.
You sound like a lecturer to me. That is also very common in the integral environment. Another integral shadow?
People who "study" a theory and become the theory. And that is pretty much it ...what they allow others to see.
ps. I just noticed Linda's reply to you. You 'liberated' her, she says. I am not surprised. That is what you guys want...go back to your cultish ways and play spiritual.
************************************************************************
Here is my 'goose' reply to another member... please read and see if you relate.
Dear Marita, my take is that you are one of those who get upset. And 'we' want to know who should take the blame for the disagreement...yes or no?
One of the indicators that something is not quite straight on the communication is when people avoid at all costs direct talk (with the individual they have in mind.) But we want to make a point anyway.
The communication is indirect.
This happens big time but I don't see many wondering why...do you?
Just a matter of politeness? I don't think so.
Some people get upset when the level of communications go down. Fortunately, luckily, Marita seems to be one of those rare individuals.
Others celebrate the fact that they can bring the conversations down ("up", from their perspective) so that they can play spiritual again...and bring their "integral" cases to discussion. For instance...
... my nationalistic (warmonger) political agenda is what we should talk about now
... my "integral art" hanging in my living room is what I am concerned about
... my 3-2-1 exercise 'talk' that means no walk is all I care for doing today
... my fancy meditation room in the new house I am planning to buy is a big thing in my life
... my guru business (which is my condition to join a community) is all that matters
... etc. etc. etc..
Some people get upset, others look forward to it. I guarantee you.
I see that my posts are still here...so I felt compelled to write.
Have a great day.
ps. Please have a look at Christophe's last blog on politics. Yes, he is damn right...
Are we people not full of sh....?
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Directness-part 2
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to The Altitude of the Integral Reader...(edited...)Hi Dora
Since you mentioned me in your response to Balder, I feel free to respond to you as well.
Firstly, I did not say that Balder liberated me; I said that I found his comment liberating. Please do not misquote me.
Secondly, the purpose of the original blog was to discuss the balance of manifestation and liberation being at the heart of communication in a community. (If you have not read the introduction to all the discussions here, please do so.)
To summarize:
A downwards flow of “Manifestation” was used in the context of honouring and showing hospitality to all members who contribute to this site.
An upwards flow of “Liberation” was used to point out the responsibility of each individual to respect the group and to make oneself as understandable as possible.
Balder’s statement was most understandable and direct and for that reason his comment was “liberating”.
Please do not take out your anger with others on me.
Regards
Linda
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Fragmentation, not Integration
Posted May 7th, 2009 by avoid in response to Directness-part 2Linda, dear, here is what Mark is commenting to me right now...
"What we are seeing here is fragmentation, not integration."
And I say to everyone...
Do we (collectively) want to face the fragmentation? Or would we rather pretend we live integrally?
You talk about taking my anger 'on you'.
I ask you, do you and Balder realize your anger on someone like Authonomy.
The guy (or gal, not sure) is as sweet as he can be.
Think well.
Let me tell you what my anger is about. It is about the pretense that the "seeker" is really seeking anything other than what is convenient for him/her to believe.
Does anyone else share this anger with me? I do think so. There are people here who realize what I am talking about and feel the same way...even though they might be quiet.
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Dora
Posted May 7th, 2009 by Balder in response to The Altitude of the Integral Reader...(edited...)Yes, I can own that shadow. I was making a remark about our Integral Community as a whole, and I am a member of that community. I've definitely been annoyed and triggered in the past on these forums by posts that seemed spammish and disruptive to me.
Regarding the rest of your post, I think it contains a lot of projection and I am not going to engage with it.
All the best,
B.
[Edit] P.S. I posted this before seeing your edit containing your letter to Marita.
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Balance and Integration
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell MoneyhonLinda, I think you made a very good point. Balance has something to do with growth. And at integral life we see "growth" as more or less equal to "integration" at increasingly higher levels. A larger sense of the word integration requires an upward growth, as the lower levels are not as "highly integrated" as the higher levels in which there is more differentiation. I see true integration as a mix of differentiation and unity.
Ken makes a good point about how the post-modern culture is highly diverse and differentiated, but lacking the unity (your "community") to be well integrated. It seems that Ken's multi-perspective approach, which resonates with us IL participants, is, in large part, an antidote to the lack of integration of the post-modern culture in which relativity gets equated with "arbitrary". The integral map is a balance of relativity (it's according to which quadrant lens you are looking through) and a unified view of the "whole pie" - the whole body of knowledge and values (I would love the 4 quads to be applied more to skills, aptitudes, or "gifts", as well) - the whole "community" of thought and of humankind.
While balance does not seem to equal "integration", it seems to be a pre-condition. If too much of one perspective is adopted and/or applied, it gets the "big head" and tends to take over, as in the idea of a flatland created by the upper right quad. In a healthy society/community, the other 3 major perspectives (the other 3 quads, especially the left two) counterbalance the upper right to help it find its rightful, optimal, place in humanity. Balance only becomes integration when all four of the quad family members actually work together in an integrated fashion in which the different atributes and perspectives are all utilized in one, synergistic, process (a kind of "liberated symbiosis"?).
To apply these abstractions here, to the well-being of this particular online community, we do need to learn to let our little lights (different mental frequencies which translate into different insights and "gifts") shine in colors and intensities which others can appreciate. I agree with your valuation of balance between "autonomy" (or agency) and "community" (or communion), as a necessary precondition for integration in the larger sense of "higher integration".
One way we might see such balance would be in a kind of timing, like a heartbeat. One post may go "out there" a bit, to a realm few can appreciate. That is not bad. Its agency or autonomy may provoke thought in a few participants if they are at a special place and time to appreciate it. But then the next post (or pretty soon) would best be more down to earth (using more familiar lay and IL language), so as to ebb and flow between "variation" and familiar theme. That is what good art does. It "goes out there", but manages not to lose itself in going there, because it finds themes by which to ground the beautiful side trips. The themes become a kind of "home away from home" during a mind-expanding trip/journey.
Your post came at a good time for me. I tend to go out there a bit excessively, or too often. Your post inspires me to better balance my communications - to reel it in more often than I have so far. Don't worry, I doubt if I am capable of reeling it in too much! Once one tastes liberation, it is unlikely that he or she will be happy to be a "company man".
Darrell
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Back where we started
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Balance and IntegrationHi Darrell
I just happened to come online at the same time as you and it has been fascinating for me to watch your various responses popping up one-after-one to the various contributors to this blog. Thanks to the community introducing a “community comments” link, the order in which you made your responses became apparent. Without this link I would not have been able to see how you worked your way around the blog.
Now, I guess that might be considered a very right-brain approach but in some strange way it contains for me its own poetry of motion.
And even in your free flowing comments I find logic.
The point being, that it might not be that easy or even desirable to divide posts into quads.
You say in your response to Schalk , “I believe Demming has it right. Don't blame the individual, look to the system and at what it might do to correct the so-called "problem".”
I’m afraid this goes against the whole concept of balance for me. Who is going to decide for instance where I belong. Poet or intellectual? I’d love to be in each of the quads. Or could a post be added to more than one quad? And who would decide this? IMO and using my logical side it simply would become too complicated.
Whereas I agree that a “community, systems-oriented (Demming-like) approach to quality assurance” can do much to promote meaningful communication by introducing translators, niches, block-user buttons and possible shadow buttons, this is not something which could be enforced. These could simply be tools there for those who wish to make use of them. Otherwise we run the risk of losing the balance being spoken about in my original blog entry.
To Michael you say, “Too much emphasis on, or dependency on, individual growth approach can lead to subtle or not-so-subtle forms of elitism.” Whereas I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, we must be careful of thinking that to counterbalance this we should go to the other extreme.
“There is a niche for Autonomy's (and my own) free association type of communication.”
Most definitely and honouring and showing hospitality to each of the members in this “we-space” is what was described as the downward flow of manifestation.
“Again, if this post is even about the communication style of a particular blogger. I still am not up to speed on that social angle, as I am not particularly gifted in understanding social situations or "rules"”.
You have asked me to answer you on this and so I will. The post, on one level, (and I think it can be interpreted on various levels) was not about communication style but about the dangers of invading “each and every blog with mumbo-jumbo and constant displays of “My Way” only in an attempt to attain love, affection and appreciation.”. So in that sense, it can be interpreted to refer to the blogger “Autonomy”.
If I had not followed your comments on the community comments page and had instead come online later and then read through them following the order of this page I would have thought that your first comment was actually your last.
So in a sense let us go full circle and end where you actually began:
“Your post came at a good time for me. I tend to go out there a bit excessively, or too often. Your post inspires me to better balance my communications - to reel it in more often than I have so far.” Way to go, Darrell!
“Don't worry, I doubt if I am capable of reeling it in too much! Once one tastes liberation, it is unlikely that he or she will be happy to be a "company man".”
I certainly wouldn’t encourage you to be a “company man”, but remember too that non-duality contains both liberation and autonomy, and therein lies the challenge!
Keep well
Linda
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Art of Weaving
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Back where we startedLinda, great job of weaving together a lot of little threads I added to the mix. What did you mean by the community comments function? Unless you mean notifications on your email, I don't think I know how to use that device/tool here. Notifications on email do provide a sense of time or unfolding that is often lost in the visual presentation of the post, especially after a lot of comments.
Re the quad/gift idea, yes there would need to be room for gift hybrids such as poet/philosophers, etc. But I disagree that the mix would be too complicated. Most people gravitate toward certain interests and aptitudes. Plus, it would be a self-assessment, not for someone else to assess each member's "gifts". Premack, in the behavioral modification branch of psychology, used behavioral preference as a marker of what is reinforcing to an animal or human. Computers calculate and remember what type of sites you use. Chances are, that much of our "gift" is reflected in what we choose to spend our time doing during our free time, or down time. I use a lot of poetry. One of my IL subgroups would be fellow poets sharing poems, which could then be looked at integrally. But I love to intellectually speculate and philosophize as well. Whatever groups we hung out in mostly, I am sure that we would find fellow-hybrids as well.
Anyway, it's an idea.
Darrell
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Picking up two threads
Posted May 13th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Art of WeavingHi Darrell
Thread one: To go to the community comments function simply click on those words in this sentence. Or if you wish to read more about it you can click on the following blog: “Got RSS? Well, sort of” where Robert MacNaughton explains it all in more detail. He also has a number of interesting links you can click on if you wish to understand more of the technical side to it all.
Thread two: Thank you. I think I now better understand your idea about quads/gifts. You are suggesting different subgroups where one could choose to hang out and contribute. I can see that that could be a useful addition to this site. Maybe the contribution page we have now could still be kept as it is, so that we could see all recent blogs made, but that added to the entry could also be a link to the subgroup where the original posting took place. There would also of course have to be links to these subgroups for those who simply wanted to go straight to them to see what they have on offer.
This is the result of a public art project. You can read more about the “Community Tapestry project” ,here.
Here’s my attempt at haiku for today:
Just pick up the threads,
Practice the art of weaving;
A cloth has been made.
Postscript: To sort this all out and co-ordinate all the suggestions that have been made on this blog we are probably going to need some kind of “Spiderman”. (Have fun listening. I just thought I’d end on a musical note to lighten things up.)
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Primarily Associative Thought
Posted May 18th, 2009 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Picking up two threadsLinda, First of all, thanks for not taking the orange approach with me and blocking my comments. I tested out as an intuitive thinker on an abrieviated form of the Myers Briggs. Supposedly this type strives to reinvent the world and comprises only 5% of the population. Persons of this type-hybrid are weird, by many, and perhaps most, standards. I mix poetic and analytic thought together in a way which may be nothing more than contaminated, but if that is the case, unfortunately I continue to love to roll in it like a dog rolling in ... (whatever unsavory element one may imagine!).
You are one of a few who don't seem to mind mixing right brain and left brain modes, even though your response to the very right-brainish (purer intuitive type?) Autonomy suggest that you have a cutoff level of tolerating associaltive or appositional (putting one thing, anything, up against another thing, anything, and seeing what matches up, if anything!) which I think of as living at the top of a funnel of thought-processing. Breadth of association is a high priority in the early stages of a thought, such as in problem solving.
Platt and Spivack found that, of 5 "interpersonal cognitive problem-solving" skills, "alternative taking" (coming up with a lot of options, no matter how off the wall they may, at first appear) correlated highest with good behavior (not acting out) amoung the adolescents they studied. It was not the first factor for adults, but, as I recall, it still ranked high. I also recall other studies that persons with anger problems often lack imaginative processes. The study I recall (but cannot cite) actually indicated that hostiles fantasize less, not more, than non-hostiles. The interpretation was that fantasy can be a way of sorting through options and of channelling energy there, intsead of acting out the emotions in real life.
All this to say that in a group-mind process, some will contribute to the top of the funnel (and may stay there long after others have moved on), because their gift (or habit?) is to bank on associations and impressions as a contribution to the process of discovering new ways or truths. Whether it reaches an unproductive stage in any given group conversation, is a matter of how much people (or types) value raw exploration or association or "right brain appositional thought" or impressionistic thought or artistic thought, or divergent thought, etc.
The type-rooms idea (birds of a feather) does seem to have merit. It would give a place for associatives or divergent thinkers to play together (doubtful you could call it work!), and not to feel overly isolated. Type (or tendency) support groups online, within the larger IL community. But there could still be a problem of that group's potential contributions being placed on the "island of missfit toys" (from the old Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer animated TV show, the one with Burl Ives singing and narating) and never heard from again. This would be a group form of suppressing "alternative taking" etc., and could eventually hurt, rather than help, the quality of group thought.
To avoid this lopping off of this mental function, I propose a couple of IL group options: 1. create the type rooms, but use laisons (like your "translator" idea) to transfer the contributions to other types in the larger community. and/or: 2. (and I think this has great merit) structure the blog discussions themselves as "PAT"(primarily associative Thoughts) and "down pat" thoughts (meaning further on "down" the intellectual processing funnel). Types like Autonomy and myself could play in the PAT sandbox to our heart's desire over on a split screen section of the blog as the thinking unfolds.
Others who are comfortable, or gifted at, boiling things down into cogent points can gravitate toward the more analytic and coherent side of the screen, to the "down-pat side". If a participant wants to frolic in the PAT side of the discussion awhile, and then later migrate to the down pat side, they can.
The free-associators might still lack insight and insert associations into the down pat side, but at least the nudge would only need to be to keep it over there, rather than "outa here" altogether. The advantage of a split screen blog approach is that it would keep the right brain and left brain of the collective in close proximity and in easier access, rather than risk the isolation of over specialization or group-mind compartmentalization.
There would also need to be a way of making it easy to see when the idea was contributed. The temporal sequence of the group mind would seem to be important to contributors of new ideas. Some new associations may occur later to start a new mini-funnel which might then be re-processed into the main funnel of thought. Innovation of any system involves such an inserting of a "mini-funnel" or "epi-funnel". Critical thought requires such inserts of creative thought, if it is to keep its "edge" or quality.
Finding a place/niche for Autonomy and myself and other "associatives" would be a systemic or community approach to the "problem", rather than relying on individual responsibility only (which may morph into blame and into squelching of a gift, rather than helping the individual build on their strengths, no matter how odd those strengths may be).
Hope you can sort or weave your way through this comment as well. Thank you so much for being brave and honest enough to tackle quality control issues for this wonderful online community.
Darrell
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Right brain/Left brain
Posted May 19th, 2009 by Linda Hollier in response to Primarily Associative Thought“You are one of a few who don't seem to mind mixing right brain and left brain modes”
Reading this took me straight back to a second year psychology class in which after taking certain tests as part of being taught how to implement them, I was told something similar. The only difference being, that at the time I was left with the feeling that I was somehow abnormal. Of course, I know now that that is not so, and your observant remark left me with a good feeling.
I have to tell you that your contributions on this post and the dialogue that we have exchanged in as a result, have done a lot to keep me at the top of the funnel of thought-processing for far longer that I was able to stay there before. My cut-off level of tolerating the associative and appositional has been extended. That is surely a good thing, and for that I say thank you.
Your split screen blog approach is certainly interesting and most innovative.
I don’t know if you noticed, but in a subsequent post I attempted to summarize all the contributions made here, as well as invite others to engage in a bit of fantasy.
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Very good, Linda!
Posted May 1st, 2009 by Erik StittYou got it!!! The "IT"!! The big ONE. Liberation = Eros = Shiva = The Witness! Manifestation = Agape = The Feminine = Shakti! The marriage of those two concepts of dualism is the immanent collapse into Nondual Suchness. From Causal to Nonconceptual. Nirodh. Nirvanna. No I. No Linda. Just this. Vergessen. Enlightenment.
Enjoy! The honeymoon lasts only for a brief blip in the eternal moment, and then the choiceless Vow of the Bodhisattva comes to fore. At this point, enlightenment is both a blessing and a curse until, as you put it, Liberation and Manifestation are totally, thoroughly, completely and irrevocably ONE.
Be well and be loved,
Erik
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We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, have been doing so much with so little for so long, now attempt the impossible with nothing...