M.C. Escher

Yeah that is how I would intuitively place those things.  I wouldn't ordinarily include this in a discussion but since you are providing links to secret societies, what the hell.   This all intuitively makes sense based on certain phenomenological experiences I have had both on and off psychedelics.  That is why I have the feeling these two "things" (fractals and holons) somehow go together.

What I meant by holons emerging out of fractals was that if the physiosphere does run on some sort of fractal type physics, than anything else must still arise out of the physiosphere.  This corrseponds to Wilber's description of lower "levels" in a holoarchy being more essential or fundamental.  This makes sense; no matter what physics runs the physiosphere, the biosphere wherever it emerges still relies on the physioshpere for the material with which to come into being.  The biosphere then reorganizes (that is the trancend and include part) the physiosphere in biospheric ways, and so on up through the holarchy. 

What I am interested in now is how would the noosphere and pneumosphere relate to a fractal "ordered" physiosphere, particularly right now I am thinking about the pneumosphere.  I will just throw this out there...is it possible that at the higher ends of the noosphere and then into the pneumosphere, though still "trapped" or included in the biospheric body that gave rise to it, that a noospheric or pneumospheric being (i.e. human) could at that point "see" the entire universe (here I mean all universes if there are multiple) and how it runs?  I mean we have to account somehow for the fact that theories like Haramien's even exist.  And I think these unified physiospheric theories may be as a result of tapping into our pnuemaspheric potential; in the Haramien interview I listened to, they discuss how Einstein tried to think like God and Haramien seems to relate to this...

Anyways, yes I find this very fascinating and it certainly does open up the imagination, in scary as well as in exciting ways.  By the way, what is it that is above the pneumosphere?  I mean maybe this is a stupid question that humans really can't even grapple with but for the sake of enjoyment, I am going to try.  I at this moment can envision two sort of things, one would tie back into this fractal type stuff we are talking about, one would be a more simple reading of a holoarchy. 

I'll start with the second: At the pneumosphere, I would just imagine that the levels of understanding just keep getting bigger and wider, transcending and including more scope.  So god turns into God turns into GOD turns into GAWD turns into GAWED and blah blah blah...

I suppose my first thought isn't so much different than that theory, but a closer look at how that might actually happen.  So just for the sake of argument, let's pretend that I was right, that in the pneumosphere, we have the ability to "see" the entire universe.  Still, we have done this on a path up through the physiosphere, biosphere, and noosphere.  This means that our pneomospheric vision or whatever you want to call it (and of course we are talking about individual holons here) has been enabled by a specific noospheric being which was inhabiting a specific biospheric being, not to mention that the biospheric and noospheric being from whence it came was the result of a specific evolution starting at the physiospheric level of the specific universe from which we came.  So even if the pneumosphere here can be possibly be described as "world soul", it is still "world soul" through a specific filter or set of eyes.  Now how can a pneumospheric being trancend and include itself?  The only way forward that I can imagine is by understanding or "seeing" as it were, through a new set of eyes.  Could death and rebirth possibly be the method of transcend and include at the pneumospheric level?  If this is the case, it seems that holarcies may also be "fractal" in some sense.  Does it make sense that death could be a transcendence and then birth a new inclusion?  I think maybe it does.  I mean the potential for a pneumospheric "enlightenment" has existed since the beginning of time (not that there was a beginning but in the sense of the evolution of our own particular biosphere/noosphere out of the physiosphere).  That doesn't necessarily mean or not mean that there has always been "enlightened" pneumospheric beings but that it only makes sense to me that evolution is the activation of a field of infinite potentials.  At the point in a fractal where macro becomes micro or vice versa, it seems to me that infinity is "simply" swallowing infinity,  where trancend and include is actually still happening, though maybe not in the way we would normally think about it.  The emergent of total oneness seems to me to be individuality containing that oneness in a unique way and then the emergence in the individual (individual here meaning individual at any holonic level) is a greater realization of the "oneness of inifinity" that it contains.  Fractal turtles all the way up, fractal turtles all the way down??? I dunno...maybe?

I must admit I am pretty skeptical of the Egyptian links you are sending me, though another part of me is intrigued.  I still don't understand how they could have built the pyramids...but I must be honest, I am not going digging through these cult like magazines, if the information comes out to the public someday, I will give it an honest listen, particularly if something like Haramien's theory starts to become accepted.  Thanks for the links and I hope my attitude doesn't disappoint.

By the way, the proposition that we might be projecting onto Wilber was not merely directed at you (though it certainly was in part) but myself as well.  And believe me, I share many of the feelings and hopes that Integral could and should do more.  Additionally, I didn't say that to get anyone to stop criticizing the shortcomings (well maybe I said it way but I don't mean it that way...) but rather that if we are going to point out what we see as shortcomings, why not get off (or onto..hmm) our lazy asses and provide a better alternative.  If we do actually identify shortcomings in Integral the company's approach, and we both point this out and then start working out our own solutions to those shortcomings then it will either die out because we were wrong, die out because we have no friends, force the company to rethink things, move things forward because we were wrong and someone bought it, move things forward because we were right and someone bought it, etc. etc. etc.  My point is, why not try a little bit more?  Do we have what it really takes to actually do something to this world?  (I won't say for since that implies my contribution would be positive lol)  Anyways, I think it is worth a try, if only for the sake of entertaining ourselves. 

Anyways......