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22 out of 23 members found this useful.

Entertaining but I wonder...

Interesting video and tidy theory, but I am wondering if it is a wee bit simplistic.  I do realize that this is far more complex than the few minutes of video can reflect, but I wonder if this is really doing a disservice.  In my experience, I find my own and other's perspectives constantly shifting and indeed, when I am truly paying attention to the emergent whole, it is often tricky to tell where perspectives are coming from in meetings - they seem to "tetra-arise" almost irrespective of the individuals voicing them.  It often seems that there is an autopoesis to this process that a simple typology (here "native perspectives") doesn't really elucidate all that well.  In the meetings I am in, I often find that people are taking perspectives that are not being otherwise represented, that reflect organizational or personal shadow, that reflect areas of structural responsibility, that are driven by personal agenda, that are altruistic, that reflect certain competencies in personal development, that embody a complex range of action-logics, that are in reaction to specific circumstances, that are based on dynamics of trust, that touch on alliances both in the room and outside it, that are influenced by stakeholder perspectives, that reflect learning styles and emotional intelligence...the list is almost endless.  To reduce this flex-flow of full AQAL+ to a base "native perspective" strikes me a little silly, simplistic and potentially decidedly unhelpful.   I am seeing Integral here producing one more schema that allows us to pigeonhole behavior and mask over complexity in favor of fundamentally orange world-view thinking.  I find myself more and more seeing the hammer syndrome in integral - looking for nails in all the wrong places.  I hate to think about the analysis that will be going on as people "apply" this in their next meeting.  Ouch.

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16 out of 16 members found this useful.

Reductive?

Yes, I tend to agree. As I watched I wondered if yet another typology, even one based on AQAL, was actually going to get us any further than Myers-Briggs, or Honey and Mumford's Learning Styles, or Belbin's Team Roles or the Enneagram. Of course, anything that makes us more self aware is useful, but in my experience people get very attached to their 'types', which is NOT useful. Over the years of teaching people how to operate more effectively interpersonally, I have found that it is simply better to ask them to keep one eye on what's happening 'out there' and one on what's going on for them - thoughts, emotions and in their bodies, and what that is telling them. Often their own images and metaphors for what is going on is the best language for moving on, and allows for complexities and angles which seem to be avoided in this latest typology.

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4 out of 4 members found this useful.

well put...

your list of examples made your point very clearly. one question that could be asked is: "is there ANY useful system of {necessarily overly simplistic} typology which is USEFUL in, for example, meetings, where the many factors which you began listing are shaping experience and behavior. Your argument could apply equally to ANY system of typology in ANY circumstance. I think we can all see ways that an awareness of our own type or style or bias or agenda, etc. is beneficial to all as well as our awareness of others types, etc. So, again, I'm landing on the issue of UTILITY in particular circumstances. Great post!

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6 out of 6 members found this useful.

Honoring the effort

Human beings are much more complex entities than any present developed theory can explain.

Therefore I believe that any effort in the direction of trying to understand human behavior should be honored. Remarkable examples are Freud, Maslow, Graves, Wilber etc.

Do these theories explain everything about human behavior?

Of course not.

And they do not claim to do so.

In my opinion we should hold and consider these theories more lightly, more like paintings instead of photographs.

In this way they could make solid contributions to our collective understading and thus support our evolution

 

 

 

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Honoring the effort

Human beings are much more complex entities than any present developed theory can explain.

Therefore I believe that any effort in the direction of trying to understand human behavior should be honored. Remarkable examples are Freud, Maslow, Graves, Wilber etc.

Do these theories explain everything about human behavior?

Of course not.

And they do not claim to do so.

In my opinion we should hold and consider these theories more lightly, more like paintings instead of photographs.

In this way they could make solid contributions to our collective understanding and thus support our evolution.

 

 

 

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Keep wondering....

....and sitting with your ideas. A second-tier perspective is going to work hard to translate concepts, especially a concept as complex as Integral Theory to different levels and types. What levels and types are going to find Native Perspectives valuable? Joanne has done a great job of targeting the "meetings" videos.  How does it need to be packaged to target you? Maybe you could drop into a state that would allow you reframe it for yourself (you've already done some of that in your post) and develop a way of presenting Native Perspectives to someone at your level and type. I invite you to play with it. I wonder what you might discover. You might find a way to communicate it more effectively to other levels and types, as you started to do in your post.

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Perspective on your perspectives

I am impressed with this comment as well as the critiques that followed. Most comments are from folks who seemingly are quite informed in the various models of allied psychologies. The presentation to me was excellent in the respect that it displayed the AQUAL model in a simplistic manner, yet with a modicum of validity no matter which perspective we harbor -- a teaching tool that would appeal to some and not to others. Like Graves said, the model does reflect the  messy affair that worldviews are, much like our fingerprints  and our various comments reflect that. The universe seemingly contains an infinite number of perspectives with an open ended track to traverse which makes the field and enormous challenge loaded with the complexity that that volume entails. All models seemingly are attempts to formalize the information for our consumption and so the comments reflect that, thanks everybody! I liked the model with all the added interesting caveats.

Archie Sharretts

 

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4 out of 4 members found this useful.

AQAL or Arrogance? or our arrogance... thats right! you! me! us!

 

it's 4:19am in minnesota i'm wiring "this" as a preface. -end

 

 Their seems to be a buzz about this video with a simple question, "is this video actually AQAL[integral] or is it arrogant to call it AQAL[integral]?"

yes mwessley it may be true that we are so complex and so auto-poetic that if we look at the video it seems like it isn't only taking a lower right or LR perspective and so you are unsatisfied with the simplicity the non-systemic comprehesiveness of these parts so partial and un-whole/un-completness of an answer.    :home base LR

 

Helen Davis you are also right getting to know people and just based on our assumption of their perspective based on a typology isn't getting to really know them and how they feel, how we feel… :home base LL

 

Jeff sure… since mwesley has a list of things that need to be taken into account is there anything on this list you can do right now any useful behavior i can do right now?… home base UR

 

Alxexandre i find myself liking your answer the most … are these theories total systems? who knows? do they give all the answers about everything and everyone and tell us what actions to take? No. What maters is that they are functional and beautiful… do they have useful meaning that i can hold inside me... :) home base UL

 

This debate over the simplicity or complexity of the videos reminds of the journey to reach a definition of an integral work of art.

The debate about integral art lead to questions about the artist and produce of the artist. (Is a painting of a single bamboo stock integral? or Must integral art require a sort of total all encompassing integral map that instantly enlightens everyone and everything simultaneously dissolving all oppression…?) okay you get the idea…

(i have to stop laughing before i wake my wife it's 3:30)

No the concept or label or definition of what integral art was--determined in the referenced audio or video clip being recalled which seemed correct--stated that integral art is integral if, the artist has integral consciousness. So a single bamboo stock painted by someone who is integral is integral art. and integral total art may be integral too but this isn't the definition of integral rather a type of integral art.

This video was clearly not a total all encompassing kitchen sink including wagnerian integral textbook. Rather to be fair it was an immersion into what for many of us in the integral community find is painful to admit. (well two things at least) First that we actually ignore practical application of the AQAL model in favor of not having messy application confuse us away from thinking we are so smart (perhaps because we are to obsessed with our thinking not our doing we achieve this sense that we are smart without application other than talk) Second we don't like to accept that in any given moment we might actually limit ourselves to one perspective right? because AQAL has so many persecutives and we for some reason think that we are our minds and if our minds are integral than to not be super integral perspective man or woman at all times is like admitting we aren't super smart to ourselves which feels to imitate. It isn't like saying i'm stupid on monday's which implies usually i'm smart to others. it is like realizing i am not as super smart as i thought i was.

I mean the idea that integral people might actually speak from a home base perspective isn't really hard to believe it is just hard to stomach that even though we "integrals," are are at times experiencing (what we are saying that pre-integral consciousness/people perspective is embarrassing because we are SO [feel the sarcasm] so much more evolved so we aren't allowed to hold a single perspective and translate our thoughts through it right? lol.)

There i go again being all disintegrated 

There we go again being all disintegrated 

There it goes again being all disintegrated 

There its goes again being all disintegrated

 

holing the integral map in our minds and using it in our lives doesn't have to mean endlessly processing every detail of all integral and post integral perspectives simultaneously and yet still lighting with the room, giving ourselves therapy and being in complete non-dual consciousness not that that doesn't sounds like a very exciting ride. And in part that is also why we are reacting averse to this series of videos. because it reminds that we aren't always AQAL being AQAL isn't just levels and quadrants it's also lines states and types so how could we even begin to judge those people around us in the meeting?!!!

Answer: don't! we aren't orange we are integral right?  just judging people? the point of this video isn't to judge other people. Sure use it to judge others if you want to and see what happens… let us know how many times you make an ass of yourself like i did toward the begining of this comment blog response. it doesn't feel good to be judged like that and i'm sure that at least one or 2 if not more of the people who named and gave a home base assignment to are at least little irritated. (sorry for for that) 

Answer part 2: the point of the home base isn't to just others, it is to just yourself. so you can see why you hate meetings so you can stop hating meetings!!! so you can stop judging others and start relating to them. so you take action and stop being obsessed with your point of view. So you can stop obsessing over the group awareness and start seeing the system. so you can stop focusing on the only the job and start seeing the culture and people and really care about us all.