Integral Life Sucks

I'm sure you've thought of this stuff already and hopefully have something like it in the works....but...

One way to assuredly increase the flow of traffic here would be to have Ken go on Oprah and talk about Grace and Grit - (preferably promoting a film version of it!!!!) - and have Oprah's humungous demographic, many of whom are already experiencing 'Presence' through Ekhart Tolle's 'Teachings'  (as well as all the other myriad of mainstream wisdom she has exposed to her audience to) learn how to integrate all of their newfound understandings through similar series of talks and teachings of simplified AQAL. Add Diane and Genpo to the mix then we have large cross section of America with a real taste of Integral and how important it is.

As for the actual content of the website - I think it's great - (i've said a few times I got rid of my TV for this).  I've always thought a great 3-D animation of what it 'feels' like to be utilizing AQAL as a map while navigating the territory of life would be really helpful in detecting the subtle nuance of whatever the hell it is we're talking about in here.

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∞ 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 ∞ 

Yes, I think the website could definitely use some improvements.   I know you’ all are working on it so I won’t go into that.   Your question: Does Integral Life represent the club you belong to but can't tell your friends about?  We're all here for a reason, so what can we do differently to relate this story of living with love and integration to a world that seems to sorely need it?  And - gasp! - does Integral Life really suck? 

My comment would be that yes it does suck, it is hard work, and we have to really make an effort to understand each other.  Every time I see a post from Balder or Shalk (no offense…please accept as a compliment) I wonder how much of this will I even understand.  I need a translator to get through it.  So I ask myself why I bother.  I bother because when I do hear you it sounds true!  I know you have to make an effort for me, why would I not do that for you?  Elitism is a word we use when we feel too lazy to try.  I remember reading Integral Spirituality and Ken said he had to do the work and so must you.  Do we think it happens with osmosis?  I tell those friends of mine about Integral when they want to hear it, otherwise they simply won’t hear me.  
For me the million dollar question is why I am here.  I am a work in progress, I have issues with feeling ashamed of my feelings, feeling insecure and feeling lonely.  I am trying to reconcile the relevance of my feelings to what the rest of you are feeling.   I suppose we all share in this, if I make an effort to be to you what I would like you to be to me that would make a difference.   I doubt it would be your brilliance that would attract me to you, but I would overlook your brilliance because of your humility.  I don’t think your communication skills would attract me to you; I would overlook this because of your honesty and sincerity.  If we are looking for reasons to not participate we will find plenty. 

Yes, relating this story of living with love and integration to a world that seems to sorely need it is a big job, but I believe we are doing it.  We have been experimenting at Boulder Integral and when we get together I can feel the whole room come alive with loving energy, there is nothing like it.   You know the saying “if you build it, they will come”, let us just continue to surprise each other as we figure things out.

Anne

Integral Life does not suck, but there are aspects of it that do.

My largest complaint is the definition of "integral" as it is used in this community. The term is widely used to infer that it embodies everything while in practice it appears to me anyway only those who are familiar with the works of Ken Wilber. So if you haven't read Wilber, then you're not integral. This is ridiculous as its useage breeds cultism based upon elitism. Additionally, there are several "integral" community attempts that have failed dismally due to this. David Sunfellow wrote an excellent piece about this several months ago in "Integral Elitism & The Jesus Impulse".

A few points:

1. Some investigation should be done to understand why the theories are failing in real-life communities. Those learnings from those experiences could be used to influence further direction here, particularly the "on-ramp".
2. If the direction is to go "main-stream" or have world-wide influence, address the cultism stigma so that we can invite our friends in here even though they are not "integral thinkers".
3. Is the direction here to have FaceBook on steroids or something else?
4. Technically, yes this site is confusing and difficult to use.
   1. The media executive was wrong about this site being "barely 1.0". It is Web 2.0 as there is a database for data storage and has dynamic qualities, unlike a 1.0 hard-coded static website.  A long-term strategy could be articulated to get to Web 3.0/4.0. This media executive does not sound very experienced to me, however his inference is that the integral community is technically retarded, I agree.
   2. Develop in-house tools like tutorials, improve site navigation, offer reports, who's online, etc.
   3. Don't sacrifice aesthetics for functionality (for example, really WIDEN the display format).
   4. Use more open-source tools. For example, let users upload flash movies (eg., the open-source FLV Player).
   5. While the FckEditor is an excellent example, open up all it's features to offer your users richer content. Enable HTML iframe support, play YouTube videos, etc, wherever they want instead of just their profile page.   
5. Businesses are in business to make money. If the vision is to go mainstream, a lot of thought should be given at the start on making this successfully profitable.
6. What really are the benefits of being here, why would anyone join and what is integral living?

I've asked myself the questions in item #6 many times and I don't have any good, clear answers as the above mentioned stigma gets in the way. And yes, I've read 3-4 books by KW. However, Robb is showing the kind of leadership that responsible CEO's/presidents of corporations need to embody for effective leadership. There is a passion within us all to get to somehow get this complexity figured out and it isn't going to happen overnight. Mark

"what would Integral Life have to do, or become, for you to want to tell your friends about it? Does Integral Life represent the club you belong to but can't tell your friends about?" 

What I like about IL as it is, is that most of the members are integral thinkers.  The content, questions, and responses seem more harmonious than on other message boards, without the entrenched one sided perspectiveness(is this a word?) that is so common elsewhere.

To answer your question: Integral Life is a club I belong to and don't tell friends about for the simple reason that many are not Integral thinkers. I have learned the lesson that some people are just not ready for this yet.

If the goal is to try to reach more integraly minded people for membership, then that is a different story.  But I think the growth of the site is dependent on the advancement of the population, no?  That said, I am sure there are many people out there who are ready for this(developmentaly) but are just are not aware of Integral theory or this site. 

If you were to try to attract first tier members to the site, I think that may cause problems but also present challenges that could ultimately be worthwhile.

Before I go any further, what would Integral Life like to attract as far as members? Integral only? Or 1st tier too? 

To get more interaction on this site, you might add traditional forums such as:

• Political Forum
• Movie and Literature Forum
• Food Forum
• Music Forum
• Miscellaneous Forum

You know, everyday surfing stuff.  These might be better for new members who "never read a Ken Wilber book" to come in and get their feet wet.  You don't have to know AQAL to respond to a Food Forum thread titled  "What's the weirdest thing you have ever eaten?"

I do like how the site is now, but I think something was lost from the old forums.  So I say keep what we have, but add more.

Hi Robb, I guess you have to pretty self-assured to ask such a risky question. No, I wouldn’t say that IL sucks, but as one of the more serious or advanced integral thinkers, I find it a little bland – it seems to have lost its edge, and it doesn’t really challenge me anymore, and seems to lack a clear focus as to what Integral really is all about... Every now and then I find something that I want to give all my attention to but this is becoming less and less frequent. Of course, in losing this challenging/provocative dimension you may be attracting a more middle of the road audience, which is fine...

What would Integral Life have to do for me to want to tell my friends about it? Well, I do tell my friends about it, but they are either not interested (intellectually) or feel it just doesn’t provide the kind of online experience they’re looking for. There is the issue of making Ken’s work accessible to newcomers in a way that preserves its breath-taking vision of human possibilities... I suspect a lot of this question has to do with the exclusive terminology of AQAL (quadrants and colors, etc) and how to unpack Integral without using this ‘insider’ terminology... Here, I would simply use the grand narrative of cosmic, biological and human evolution as an overall framework or matrix, and then deal with all the new questions/inquiries that this new story invokes by attempting to balance the opposing tensions that arise in virtually any field of human endeavor, all the way up the spectrum...

Also, apart from Robb and Corey – who represent Integral to the community very well, there is almost no ongoing input into the community side from any other of the contributors... and there’s a massive list of contributors on the front page. So maybe we need to have more high quality integral voices interacting with the online community – to answer questions for newcomers and challenge some for experienced members, etc. Maybe do a weekly radio podcast dealing with current events from an Integral perspective, with a call in or talk back option in to IL experts , there’s a lot of crazy stuff going on these days.... I hope some of this is helpful, but I’m going to maintain a kind of “critical fidelity” to IL, mainly because there is little else out there (in either the New Age or traditional religion) that has the same degree of self-awareness and creative potential...

Cameron

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"Become passers-by" (Jesus of Nazareth)

perhaps the home page could be more newbie-friendly by saying upfront what integral is .. for example, topics such as what is integral ? what is integral life practice ?

some of the excellent media in the Learn section of the site (such as clint's brief tour thru AQAL) might be better placed on the home page ?

this site has fantastic offerings .. it's just a matter of re-organizing it a bit .. and integral life certainly does NOT suck !!

Robb, thanks so much for taking some friendly fire.

The site is generally improving.

I like the subject-separated panel format in SHARE and APPLY, and the searchable archives BUT, very annoyingly, there are no DATES on the audio and video content.

Also, I can't easily tell what I've already listened to on Integral Naked.

Also there should DEFINTELY be a full listing of the archives, not just a searchable database.

That said, I'm most interested in blogs... and this site totally sucks for that.

I have had a few good conversations despite the patchy email notfication protocols and the terrible thread layout. I don't know what web 3.0 etc would look like, but Facebook already has a much better layout, conversational and notification capacity, and I'll probably move my conversations over there if things don't improve here.

Maybe you could organize the blogs like the panels in Learn and Apply- by subjects, and preferably with subject headers as eye-freindly icons? Now blogs are default chronological, which obviously must be retained, and Featured Blogs reveals the most commented but are very old (Palin a dreadful choice?). You can't get the most recently posted AND most commented at the same time.

We cannot find blogs by subject, as far as I can tell. I'm interested in current affairs and arcane intellectual debates on meaty topics. I don't want to wade through people's poetry or spiritual musings to get at that and I want easy access to what conversational action of interest to me has been happening  recently.

Also, not a single piece of action should go un-email notified, whcih just happened on my last blog.

Whew, thanks for the opportunity to get that off my chest.

Cheersipoo,

Janine

Hi there, this is my first comment as a new user here. I'm familiar with integral theory and was a subscriber to Integral Naked for quite some time. I also have a practical background in web development and internet marketing, but my visits to IL have been solely as a consumer. That being said, I never bothered to register an account until I read this post today.

The #1 thing you can do is exactly what you are doing: asking for feedback and giving people what they ask for. The fact that you have generated so many responses shows that you are doing something right.

The overall mood of this post is overly critical in my opinion. The design and content are both good so it’s a matter of attracting members. On the technical side, usability should be the #1 focus. I agree with the suggestions for better navigation and blog improvements. Listen closely for these types of suggestions – small functional improvements that make it easier for people to interact with the content and other users.

But that’s just small stuff; no amount of technical kung fu will attract new visitors. This site is suffering from what just about every other website is suffering from right now: oversaturation. In this market, the successful digital content sites have a strong niche following. Try to be all things to all people and then you end up competing with YouTube and iTunes. Instead, keep your niche identity and do more “web outreach” at the sites like Facebook, Twitter, Digg, and any other popular site.

I prescribe a dose of old-fashioned (in web years) organic marketing. Real people from IL talking to real people outside of the IL website. Shine the Integral light in a Facebook discussion. Leave an intriguing comment on Larry King’s blog. IL’s Twitter account desperately needs some human interaction. Use real humans having real conversations to make the soft sell. But you have to go to where the people are and blend in with the locals. Comment on other people’s ideas/content instead of just putting your ideas/content out there and expecting people to notice.

Rob and other IL friends,  Business offers the mantra "location, location, location". I offer the mantra, "gifts, gifts, gifts". By this, I mean help both insiders and outsiders join into sub-communities of interests and gifts (fortunately, the two do tend to coincide) and then find niches for those "gifts".

The energy of the new first-tier participants would be largely chanelled to the development of his/her gift and how that gift might be used to help advance the overall cause of I L. This, as opposed to creeping into non-gift areas about, say, the conceptual underpinnings of the organization, which might require a more tier-two level of understanding, if it is to be useful.

As the member develops the gift, then he or she will move up stages naturally (and probably quicker than otherwise). This is a "backdoor" approach to growing enlightenment. The problem with the front door, is that it makes people feel weak or ashamed to see that they are on a lower level of consciousness. But if their gift is acknowledged, the organization is working with their strengths, rather than working on their weaknesses (or on their "perceived" inferiorities). In general, "with" is better than "on". 

Mark's idea of "FaceBook on steroids" is great. I have dabbled enough recently with FaceBook to see that, despite the mindless chatter there, it has some strengths (a "gift") that IL might be wise to use as a "benchmark". Mutual interests around sideways stuff (rather than always looking to climb up the ladder of advanced stages) will, I believe, ironically help folks move up the ladder quicker.

One thing I learned in years of therapy group facilitating: never address the participants with "We're going to do some serious therapy on you now". There is no better way to increase resistance or to generate interference than to  come in through the front door.

Using the small group metaphor further, if the facilitator of a group hopes to draw future participants, then effective backdoor, less-painful, approaches creates happy customers who are more likely to advertise the group to other community members.  

Let me give an example of using a "gift" as a backdoor to helping folks climb up the Integral Life stage ladder. I am a poet. I am just beginning to network with other poets. If poetry had a place in the IL community, I am pretty sure that I could attract a lot more members than if the mutual interest (and "gift") of poetry is never used within IL. As long as these new members felt strong and contributive about their poetry, they could be non-defensive about learning higher perspectives. In fact, they would greedily embrace the personal development services of IL in order to improve their poetry. Turns out that good, optimal,  humans make better poets.  Likewise for IL handymen, IL healers, IL technicians, IL ministers, IL harmonica players! .....

"Gifts, gifts, gifts"

                                                                      Darrell

Wow, thanks everyone for an awesome thread, please keep it coming.  We've already begun changing some of the things suggested here, you'll probably see the longer blog space in the community front page by your next visit.  And we can take the "friendly fire" (as Janine called it) because it helps us to get really focused on how to improve the experience.  Due to this thread I also have now committed to sharing with you the new home page redesign mock-ups before we act on them.  That should be interesting!

I'm going to reply more fully when I have time to digest all of this thread.

In the meantime, thank you for the energy and heart.  Anytime I get discouraged I am really propped up by all of you.  Thanks for that.

Robb Smith

Robb,

I appreciate your courage to put this "out there."

In my years of experience working with integral and being an integral evangelist, I've struggled to find the real meat of how and why it actually matters to others. Why should my Dad or the guy at the grocery store care? When I dug into my own experience with integral -- why it mattered to me -- it's because I was searching for a way to make sense of a very confusing world. Integral and Ken, in particular, hit the mark.

So recently when I was approached to have Ken on the New Man Podcast, I got to see integral from another perspective. The perspective of my listener. He doesn't particularly care about the reason why* something is this way or that way. He doesn't really care about the "map".

He just wants his life to be better. He wants his relationships to be more enjoyable. He wants more money in the bank. He wants a job that he gives a &$# about. He wants to know, deep down, that his life has some sense of purpose. And most of all, he wants to enjoy this life.

To my listener, high level talk and theories are useless. Results speak volumes.

Results matter. 

I was psyched to have Ken on the show; however, the reality that no one I spoke to at Integral Life could explain how integral impacts any of the points above hit hard.

So, the question is not, does Integral Life suck -- it's, does Integral Life matter? 

Until we can show -- really show, not just explain -- how integral is going to positively impact these areas of our lives, my opinion is that (in the big picture) it does not.

It's a fan club. 

Let's try on that Integral, by itself, is not the main course. It's a part of the meal. It's that special ingredient that makes the meal so much better, it pulls it all together. I think we get in trouble when integral is confused AS the meal. It's the garlic or the butter. And it is only truly valued when working alongside other great ingredients.

From my experience, integral helps offerings like The Authentic Man Program shine. I've taught this work for a while now and it gives me great pleasure to see integral "under the hood", a key piece of the engine. To the participant, integral is not explicit, it doesn't matter. The participants just want better relationships, and it's here that integral makes a solid contribution as a hidden, yet key, part of the ensemble.

To me, this is an example of how integral can matter...

And not suck.

Dear Robb and Fellow Members:

  I am a member of Integral Life because it makes me sweat.  It gets me off my fat intellectual ass and makes me put integral thinking into action.  I’ve had to re-read some of Wilber’s books several times since I joined IL and it’s been all to my benefit.  This is the only place I can post questions that really frustrate me and get answers that don’t just sound like they came from a bunch of rabid hyenas.   

  Since I’m generally self-propelled, I don’t mind having to struggle and look a little stupid in some of my blogs.  OK, I lie a little, but you know how it is.  That acknowledged, I would say one major barrier for most people that don’t fall into the self-propelled category is that there is no one place a person can go to in order to learn how to do a really integral analysis of serious, complicated questions or even simple, everyday questions.  In other words, I think there needs to be a textbook or website equivalent that shows how to do an integral analysis, how to think integrally, about first simple, then progressively complex issues.

  As I wrote this, I also had the idea that having an internet correspondence course that would teach integral thinking or analysis might have some potential.  At a modest charge, of course.

  AQAL is not rocket science.  The basics I can explain to people in minutes.  I can even demonstrate integral thinking to people in a few more minutes by taking a question and discussing what it looks like from the 4 main perspectives.

  Thus, for those just entering the IL on-ramp, I would like to see a video of two people discussing a modestly interesting and relevant question in an AQAL manner, but without using the AQAL lingo of 1st quadrant, zone 2, etc.  In other words, a person can have a completely AQAL conversation with someone and never use any AQAL lingo nor even need it.  I would think this would be a non-threatening way to introducing AQAL to beginners.

  Once there is enough IL staff (or graduate students), having a similar type of weekly/monthly video of an ongoing economic or international problem and putting it up for public consumption on something like Youtube or whatever is appropriate might end up attracting a goodly following.  Presently what I mostly hear on the radio, news channels, msnbc.com, etc is a bunch of raving monological lunatics.  In other words, there really isn’t anything near this sort of balanced analysis being done anywhere on the internet that I am aware of.  Another way of saying this is that it is authentic and this is what integral is all about.  I’m betting that there are a lot of people who would be interested in seeing this sort of analysis done for our present pressing problems in our economy, the Middle East, etc.

  Next, for people actually on the Integral Life on-ramp, there could be an IL video that would analyze the initial non-lingo AQAL video and show how this “balanced” discussion came about, while introducing AQAL lingo in a more natural, conversational way.  In other words, it would show a section of the non-lingo video, then the “editors” would discuss that this was an example of a 1st person perspective of the problem, discuss its strengths and weaknesses, and etc for the other quadrants.  Handy little diagrams of quadrants would sit unobtrusively in the background for the visual learners and for pointing to during the discussion.  The goal here is to introduce the ideas in a conversational and relevant way that is easier for more aurally and/or visually oriented people to learn and understand.  One might say this is integral teaching.

  Ok, we’re transitioning from the on-ramp and entering the IL Highway.  We click on the Blog of the Week in our particular area of interest.  Let’s say it is politics.  We enter this blog that is started, monitored, and guided by an Integral Proctor.  We watch as the analysis evolves, perhaps chaotically or randomly but with the proctor nudging the discussion at times or suggesting more fruitful and integral paths of discussion.  We enter the fray...

  Ok, now we’re talking big bucks, so let me back up.  In previous blogs on Robb’s question, I saw a number of suggestions I really liked.  One suggestion related to having interest groups that would have ongoing discussions as well as new questions posted by any interested person.  While I could see that without a proctor, things could potentially degenerate, in many questions that I have followed, the more serious people continued to follow the question and made many really good and poignant points even toward the end.

  Thus, I would love to see a Politics Group, an Entrepreneur/Capitalism Group, a Relationship Group, a Psychological Development Group, a Meditation Group, a Spiritual Group, a Mothering/Mother’s (and/or Father’s) Group, a Gender Discussion Group, an Integral Support Group(?), an Integral Singles Group, a Teaching Integrally Group and an Integral Analysis Group.  The last group would potentially concern itself with fleshing out what an integral analysis really means and in what situations are which parts of AQAL most important.

  The reason I bring up an Entrepreneur/Capitalism Group is that 1) money rules in Zone 7-8 and probably other zones and 2) it’s hard to find like minded people to discuss money or investments who are ethical, smart, creative, trustworthy, spiritual, compassionate, and who know how to kick ass and take names when it’s needed.  I bring up the latter because most “spiritual” people seem to make crummy investors.  To expand and survive, IL needs timely capital infusions and integrally acceptable ideas that will generate more capital.  Perhaps this group could even end up being helpful to IL.  Perhaps I dream.

  Last, and on a totally different channel than my previous discussions, I would like for us to work on what it would take to further develop our integral culture.  From my perspective, I kind of see Robb’s “Integral Life Sucks” question as relating to this.  In other words, I see Integral Life as having so much potential, but right now it just doesn’t seem to “live”.  It still needs that something extra that  will enable it reach its autopoietic critical mass and take off.  Thus, perhaps we need a “What Does Integral Life Need Group?”, which would be an ongoing forum of continuing, but hopefully gently suggested ways for us to fulfill our full potential.

the website is difficult and therefore as someone new i have sort of wasted my money for four months.  can't really make heads or tales of things.  sorry but it is just the truth.  I was very interested to start with and my energy sort of waned because I was, simply confused about how to "use" the site. 

just a newbie, chiming in and glad someone brought it up.

JFB

Hi Robb and All,

I've waited a bit so I could sit with what your saying, Robb. As a process, I have to find my own truth and then see how it applies to other areas.

Personally, I don't have any issues with the web site that would cause me to advocate for deconstructing what is. The question that seems relevant is “what do I.L. Users want or need from the site?” Is it not providing “it” in an appropriate and aesthetic manner?

Do we to kowtow to the individuals with the lowest cognition? Is there any entry exam to pass? Does previous life experience and practice of some sort, some kind of search, provide even a little pre-requisite? We have to come here knowing how to read, yes? 

It seems usable enough to me- and keeping in mind that it is, after all, just a web site, a map, a “virtual reality”. Is the social side of it not providing real enough interaction? It's virtual, anyway, yes? Is it difficulty of acceptance from one, “high roller” of the “is” that has the work of months and many at stake?

“Free to be fully human” will bring forth human expression of many levels and descriptions. Does that human expression create resistance in some who have work to do on that kind of line? These are the questions I ask myself about my own creation as well this topic.

I am reminded of a day in church, when there was collective mourning among all of the congregation, and my baby had a rattling toy he was playing with. It was making him happy. Yes, he was a little noisy, but I knew my son and his restlessness. Crying and wailing was much more disruptive.

My neighbor in an adjacent pew reprimanded me, telling me to take it away from him. Clearly, I could not please everyone, so I displeased myself and left with him.

I have had a similar experience in my own interiors regarding work I have done; a part of me was in resistance of the multi-cultural art/cookbook I did. I managed to attract exactly the detrimental criticism that my weak self was selling to me.

I kept telling myself it needed to be fixed, needed more, and all attempts at “fixing” defied my manipulation.

What I have found through seeing through my own truth, is that it is, as it is.

Perfect for what it is.

There are areas of myself, and the concept I began with, that have a great untapped potential. I say “lets build on this,” and as Integral Life works for me as it is, so shall the creation of Kam-2, work well also.

Mark, I love your work, also. Nice job.

K

Breaking Bread for Peace

Press Release

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I don't know anything.

I'm wondering if it's significant, in the light of Robb's enquiries, that the vast majority of people responding to Robb's post here are male?

Helen