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"Integral" Narcissism
WARNING! This post contains mature subject matter and is not suitable for all audiences.

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Ending Narcissism
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to I agree with you Stanley, but...I understand that about the only way to end narcissism is to show narcisists that this method just does not work in helping them get what they want. Then they either change or leave.
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Thank You
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to I agree with you Stanley, but...I was not active in the Integral Naked days. Back then I was exclusively focused on Ken and his teachings. I would appreciate any information you could share. Who were the people committing abuse? Why were they doing that? Did people stand up to them? Why did not the website act in a courageous manner? Can I get back and read the posts now? If so how?
In my neighborhood, if ugly obnoxious bullies keep pushing, it takes a group of caring people to push back hard to stop them. Otherwise things just get worse and worse. I wish that was not so. But this is what I have always seen.
I think we have seen a huge improvement around here and pray it continues in the directin of the good and beautiful. I know that is what Ken wants. Let us watch it unfold. Stick around.
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self-inflation/other-devaluation
Posted February 12th, 2012 by David MarshallStanley, have you read the definition for narcissism Ken offers in A Theory of Everything? It's pretty interesting:
The dictionary definition of narcissism is "excessive interest in one's own self, importance, abilities, etc.; egocentrism." Yet narcissism is not simply the overvaluing of the self and its abilities, but a concomitant undervaluing of others and their contributions. It is not simply possessing a large amount of self-esteem; it is the simultaneous devaluation of others that is crucial. The inner state of narcissism, clinicians tell us, is often that of an empty or fragmented self, attempting to fill the void with an egocentric grasping that inflates the self while deflating others. The emotional mood is, "Nobody tells me what to do!" [1]
I have gotten a lot clearer on it contemplating that and looking for that simultaneous self-inflation and other-devaluation in myself and others.
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Yes. Great.
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Stanley in response to self-inflation/other-devaluation
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Working with others, Seeing Oneself
Posted February 11th, 2012 by Layman PascalHi Stanley,
Do you mean the Narcissism of individuals within the integral community or that of the community-as-a-whole?
Here are a few thoughts about this general topic:
Gurdjieff used to say, in his barbarously uncouth multilingual accent, "To become real altruist, first must be conscious egotist!"
So there are both conscious & unconscious Narcissisms. Very often the term is used to describe people who actively enthuse over themselves or declare their own selfishness as if it were a rule of life. Yet this could almost be seen as a good sign when compared to those people who stay obsessively centered upon their own feeling-of-concern and yet presume themselves to be "good, caring folks".
Many books and teachings now decry the advent of post-modern Narcissistic culture. However more radical texts (like Adi Da's works -- which contributed heavily to the contemporary use of the term "narcissism" as a complaint) posit that simply believing that we are who we, assuming our separative identity, is the root act of Narcissism.
Perhaps a good way to deal to with this, a way that both embraces Green trends and opens a path beyond them, would be to intentional adopt a Way of Conscious Narcissism. There are many good things about the culture of hyper-individualism AND many bad things. We need to experiment with it in order to grow through it & beyond it.
They main obstruction facing a Narcissist -- is that he does not believe he is a Narcissist.
Self-knowledge, renouncing our "virtuous" idea of our own separateness & working in teams... these seem to me good anti-narcissism practices.
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Hello Layman
Posted February 11th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Working with others, Seeing OneselfI am speaking of individuals. I have not yet seen what I would call a true integral community exist yet. When it does I would hope that it would be based on good integral ethics rather than something more harmful to the beings of the world. I think that we are laying down the grooves as we speak. That's why this all seems so important.
I understand the distinction between conscious and unconscious narcissism. I think that a more useful distinction is between healthy and unhealthy narcissism. In healthy narcisism we would take good care of ourself and treat others the way they want to be treated in accord with the platinum rule. In unhealthy narcisism we would devote our life to harming others. If we harm others consciously or unconsciously they are still harmed. In other words, I am saying that people can be and are conscioulsy unhealthily narcissist. Sorry if you have been trying to be in denial of this.
And by the way; I personally tend to presume very little of myself. In the role I find myself playing here I mostly merely present some ideas that people are free to resonate with or ignore.
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consciousness as a route to health
Posted February 11th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Hello LaymanHi Stanley,
As usual, I appreciate the intensity of your concern on this topic. I wonder if you'd say a little more on these topics:
What could do to make a true integral community more likely to appear?
&
What do "good integral ethics" look like?
On the issue of harm we need to be as careful as we are rigorous. Treating people as they would like to be treated is a fairly good general rule, in physical-material terms it is pretty obvious, but as subtler levels (such as are mostly the case in a virtual community) things are much more blended. In many places it is difficult to distinguish "harm" from mere "upset".
It's tricky in cyberspace. Living with people in the flesh demands a different balance of support and challenge than does the anonymous, disembodied realm of digital light communication.
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My Thoughts
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Stanley in response to consciousness as a route to healthUntil we begin to learn how to start with a foundation of good integral ethics I don't think that we will be ready to begin integral communities. I plan to write more of Ken Wilber's thoughts of what good integral ethics look like in future posts. He has been teaching about this from the beginning but apparently his words have passed over the heads of many people here.
I am wondering? Does your interest in your questions come from an open minded curiosity of what good integral ethics are like so you can apply them to your life? Or are you more interested in finding some kind of a loophole so you can justify turning your back on them? You are free to take either approach. I was just wondering.
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J. Cheever Loophole (Groucho's character from "At the Circus")
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to My Thoughts>I am wondering? Does your interest in your questions come from an open minded curiosity of what good integral ethics are like so you can apply them to your life? Or are you more interested in finding some kind of a loophole so you can justify turning your back on them? You are free to take either approach. I was just wondering.
Neither.
I don't think of ethics as something that a person hears about and applies. Nor can I think of any possible reason why a person would wish to discover ethical loopholes so that they could turn they back on them. Both seem extravagant. My curiosity is about (a) enriching discourse by eliciting more precise details from you (b) keeping the topic of ethics in play so that people -- including myself -- can organically evaluate and ponder their nature and role.
Integral ethics are something that we are collectively inventing. I wish for us to deepen and expand that invention. Anything from Ken or you or anyone who is concerned on this topic may provide material upon which the community-as-it-exists (inadequate, of course) can chew.
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O.K.
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Stanley in response to J. Cheever Loophole (Groucho's character from "At the...Although my personal preference is towards people who are already ready to act in good and beautiful ways, I respect your right to evaluate, ponder, and chew. As you have seen there is no shortage of such things around here. I am not needed to add to that burden.
It appears that at this point you are actually open to learning from Neitzche while I am more open to learning from Ken. Is there anything Neitzche said about good ethics that you would be willing to stand on and act upon? I understand that he was not a particulary immoral or unethical person and did not really teach these. Is that information correct?
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the integral conscience
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to O.K.
Ethics are hugely important. However they are a little different in an online forum than in embodied communities. Here the ethical demonstrations are (by necessity) much more focused on communication. Understandable since all our bodies are actually somewhere else. Our gross bodies, anyway.
Ken is a terrific source of clarification and inspiration for me. Among many others -- high & low. Nietzsche is an interesting example of one such person. Your information is correct. People who knew him in person constantly remarked upon his kindness, sensitivity, decorum, sympathy, friendliness, decency, etc. Yet many people are confused by his writings because he examines the positive and negative aspects of many different kinds of moral systems and value codes. Although his personal actions were held to a particular standard, his intellectual ethics required him to boldly examine many possibilities which caused him personal distress. For example -- it is true that humanity has, on the whole, benefited more from actions which are popularly acclaimed as virtuous than from actions which are popularly denounced as egotistical, sinister, heartless? Part of his ethics required him to challenge (in thinking & writing) his own feelings and evaluations in order to discover deeper, broader and higher truths.
One of the things I love most about Ken's work on ethics is his consideration of the BMI (basic moral imperative, as I'm sure you know). The idea that protecting and promoting the greatest depth for the greatest span is an excellent clarification of my own ethical core. And it obviously is open to a great deal of complexity. Yet I use this just as I use practices in my life to enhance the intensity and intelligence of my inborn moral feeling. My expectation is that people will make more progress by re-generating ethics from within themselves than they will in adapting to ethical principles offered to them from outside themselves. The Integral conscience lives, often seed-like, within every integral heart. I am interested in every means by which this can be unpacked and evolved in people.
Incidentally, do you distinguish between morality and ethics?
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Cool
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Stanley in response to the integral conscience
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twin powers of integralism
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to CoolThe rise of Integralism requires two complementary powers -- integrity & organic dynamism. Integrity means inner wholeness and ethical conduct. Organic dynamism means that we are always working it out, always trying to stretch to include energies and styles which might initially trigger us into reactivity and separative gestures. We need to be more sensitive and more robust, kinder and sturdier. Both of these powers need to work as a team -- and so do all of us. Obviously teamwork is a little different in the virtual village and the flesh village. It's a little different everywhere but also very much the same. I hope that as you digest your own understanding of integral ethics you see fit to share whatever practices you engage and what kind of results you get from them.
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Here's to "Separative Gestures"
Posted February 13th, 2012 by Stanley in response to twin powers of integralismI am not afraid of “separative gestures”. I am proud to announce that it is my full intention to separate myself from the genocide that the Nazis and others have inflicted to the greatest extent possible.
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the darth vader move
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Here's to "Separative Gestures"
Don't tell me -- I turn out to be your father?
Separative gestures are ambiguous and fascinating. They are at once the necessary form of moral clarity and (apparently) the exact opposite of the spiritually inclusive gesture of the integral heart. We need both. If we refuse without understanding our basic sameness then we are not integral. But if we use essential commonality as a reason to tolerate everything then we are weak and ethically useless.
Genocide is the outgrowth of a powerful demonstration of separation. We wish to separate from it without duplicating its traces in ourselves. And it is within our power to accomplish this double success.
And no, I don't get private messages on here but you could email me if you like. The address is at the bottom of this post but I'm sometimes slow to reply owing to have several different addresses.
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Well Dad
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to the darth vader move
"Separative gestures are ... (apparently) the exact opposite of the spiritually inclusive gesture of the integral heart".
It is possible that there is some branch of useless armchair "integral philosophy" that condones eating any and all types of poison. I can't really speak to this.
As I mentioned before I am a student of Ken Wilber. He says that if you see Hitler in a bar and you have a gun in your pocket blow his brains out. The world can be a messy place down on the ground but this is where I mostly live.
But take all this with a grain of salt. This is coming through a man who said he was not going to invest much time responding to comments.
P.S. Can I have the car Saturday night?
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as long as it's back by midnight without a scratch on it
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Well Dad
Goodness has many needs just as it has many hands. It grows through our embodied, heart-felt contemplation of it. It grows through the deepening and expansion of our own Being -- which requires the development of a certain kind of intelligence which does not "fall for" our own emotional reactions even when they seem morally justified. However, this does not mean that we forgo our sensitivity and forcefulness. The inner gesture which exceeds the feeling of separateness is true only if it empowers us. We must be ready, with a good conscience, to kill killers -- and that good conscience comes from knowing how to avoid the emotional self-justification which helps killers to kill.
Working in the messy world means transcending and including the war of higher and lower. Neither identifying with it simplistically nor abandoning it.
If the Dalai Lama (speaking figuratively) is not deciding who lives and dies in this world -- then he is abandoning that responsibility to someone who is less clear and less compassionate. So he is then responsible for their choices. The "armies" of the Higher must stand ready to defeat the armies of the Lower -- but the warriors of the Higher are distinguished, in part, by their superior ability for complex, multi-dimensional understanding of the Lower.
The senior ethics must outwit, overpower & out-include the lower ethics and pathologies of all kinds. Thus far there has been, perhaps, not enough of the martial spirit in our community.
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Agreed
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Tara Aders in response to as long as it's back by midnight without a scratch on...The "armies" of the Higher must stand ready to defeat the armies of the Lower -- but the warriors of the Higher are distinguished, in part, by their superior ability for complex, multi-dimensional understanding of the Lower.
I spent many years in a spiritual community that has a strong "spiritual warrior" tradition. As shadow and immature understanding (and amber Teacher) would have it, that warrior principle showed up as excessive and distorted masculinity, oppression of the feminine realm, and great harm to the community and many individuals.
You have said beautifully what I think that tradition's emphasis on warriorship really meant: not the excessive swaggering and posturing of the immature, but the truly nuanced understanding of the greatest depth for the widest span and the will and clarity to take strong action when called for.
As irony would have it, the people who became this kind of warrior had no choice but to leave the community.
A story about the last living guru of that lineage: while in battle, defending against an invading army, he instructed his soldiers to use gold-tipped arrows so that the family of those killed in battle would have the means to go on. He was also known for picking up fallen soldiers from the other side and having them nursed back to health alongside his own soldiers.
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Men
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to AgreedTara, Arjuna Ardagh does a great job, I think, distinguishing between masculine and feminine expressions of spirituality. Men look for spiritual paths and cut through, women release into spaciousness and work through (process), etc. After hearing some of Arjuna's discernments, I decided that I had more of the feminine type of spirituality than the masculine, even though I am a man. This made me feel homophobic for a minute or two, but I soon realized that I had experienced some of the liberating truths which Arjuna was describing.
I am one of those men who feel it is about time for us to hand the "apple" (religion) back to Eve (the preistesses), in order to bring much more of the needed feminine perspective and gifts to spirituality. Also, to return to more matriarchal (instead of patriarchal) forms of social enactment.
I led a men's spirituality group in prison and had to constantly deal with pissing contests there (the same as it apparently happens here at IL on occassion). I once got the whole group to step back and see how our arguing was anything but "spiritual." At the time, an inmate had a pup (dog training program in prison). I noticed how he occassionally pet his pup. I drew the group's attention to that and suggested we all intentionally relate to that mode. The group dropped the aggressiveness instantly as though it never happened. The puppy melted the hearts of these "criminal" men. We learned that spirituality is more about just "going there" or alignment, or learning to change frequencies than it is in cutting through all the false notions in order to hone in on the truth. Or at least those alternate skills were just as important as thinking our way to the truth. I think we saw and felt a glimpse of shifting more to feminine spirituality.
Maybe we have too many men here. Or could we men learn to value "androgeny" more, and explore and employ our feminine sides much better?
Thanks for your valuable perspective on this matter,
Darrell
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Irony?
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to AgreedMaybe giving people the courage to leave and go their own way could have been the intended goal of the training?
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warrior anecdote
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Agreed
Tara,
Maybe you know the terrific anecdote about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche wherein he arranges an all-day "war game" between two halves of his students. One half headed by his successor and one half by the man trained to be head of the Buddhist security detail. They all carry bags of flour. If you bag gets burst you go join Trungpa watching everything from up on the hill. People really get into it. Even people who are normally not very aggressive or physical people. The battle rages on.
At the end of the day, with everyone exhausted and elated, it turns out that the more trained warriors were defeated by the sheer energy and cunning of the other group. They have all had fun and encountered the serious beast within. But Trungpa calls them all together and tells them how disappointed he is.
The true warrior, he says, defeats aggression first.
And they all have to "refight" the battle the next day -- keeping precisely this point in mind.
Transcend and include.
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I Promice
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to as long as it's back by midnight without a scratch on...No sctatches ...... just dents.
I would prefer to feel here like a tree growing in the bright sunlight. Instead I often feel like I am in a martial arts match. A character flaw I have is that it is difficult for me to turn my back when I see others being clearly harmed.
In my martial arts training I was not taught that anger is bad, just ineffective. The warrior can not fight well on a sustained basis nourished only on rage.
I pray that as lower ethics and pathologies are deminished here we can begin turning our swords into plows.
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marshaling our arts
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to I PromiceEveryone, in my view, needs to become better at inspecting, accepting and assimilating their own aggression. This yields two tremendous benefits (a) increasing gentleness (b) ability to respond with assertive boldness. We need to beat our swords into plowshares AND keep our swords sharp.
A lot of people here think your style of communication is partially hostile, imbalanced or otherwise provocative of a "martial arts match". I don't treat it that way, but I wonder which option you would prefer -- changing your style of communication or giving up on the being the tree nourished in the sun?
Obviously this is hyperbolic but it's also intriguing. One of the really good aspects of an online community is that everyone gets to experiment with figuring out how best to "type" in order to establish the realities they wish to be nourished by.
Here's the diminishment of lower ethics & pathologies!
I pray that as lower ethics and pathologies are deminished here we can begin turning our swords into plows.
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Huh?
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to marshaling our arts
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the challenge vs. the sunlight
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Huh?It's an interesting topic. I see your flexibility, humour & various flavors but I also watch with intrigue as sparks and weariness arise in people's interactions with you. So I become interested, as a scientist might, about one of the types of energies which occurs here:
The "form" of your comments has a particular structure which, while valid in terms of the issues you're presenting, is obviously off-putting to lots of people in this community. It prickles them. And then they either ignore or half-attack -- looking to overcome the sense of division which is confronting them. Yet these are among the very people who would be necessary to create an atmosphere of nourishing sunlight in interactions.
In the face of overtly rogue communicators it is commendable to call for separation and denouncing. However, when it is not so over this "look" has the possibility of being counterproductive. The sense of good/bad/choice which permeates many of your messages, it appears to me, strikes a lot of people as a subtle danger sign. They are trying to communicate from a space in which they do their best to believe in the supportive togetherness of the group. And then signals from you seem to say, "We're not together. We're failing or have recently been failing. There are good and bad people among us -- which are you?" And this seems to come across as a vaguely hostile message for many of the folks who might otherwise be involved in mutually exchanged positive radiation.
So what I meant was that there might be places where you have to choose between sticking to this kind of message (which is obviously important to you) and cultivating the very atmosphere which you might prefer. A hypothetically intriguing choice.
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Scientific Data
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Stanley in response to the challenge vs. the sunlightFirst al all let me make it absoutley clear that I am dangerous; very very very dangerous! Did I say very? There is nothing subtle about this. I also have the potential to be lazy so if people are not overly abusive to me, me, me, me, and oh yea the peole I care about, like decent people in general, most people have little to fear from me.
You say; "... they do their best to believe in the supportive togetherness of the group" Unfortunately I do not see it that way. You seem to either not know or are trying to pretend to not know that, as Kelley pointed out earlier in this thread, our culture has for a long time been one of, " hostility, cyber-stalking, pure-nastiness." Is it that you do not know or are pretending? I would like to know this answer.
I am trying to do what I can to make a significant change in this culture of abuse and we are already seeing a huge improvement over the way we used to be just a little while ago. I encourage you to read some of our top featured posts and infer around the deleted parts if you really don't know. I don't think our communithy will change by abusers becoming good people but by them leaving and this finally becoming a safe place for decent people. I am not sure about this. Let us watch and see. I often like to see my predictions being proven to be wrong.
And oh yea. By nature I tend to think that most people are basically decent until they repeatedly prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. You have not done that.
Is that enough data for you to analysize for now?
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the options
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Scientific DataDear Dr. Danger,
I have only been around here for a couple of months. Any period of sinister anarchy is before my time and doesn't enter much into my picture of this community. On the other hand my vision is usually overweighted in the direction of the future anyway. So I'm not assessing this little cyber nook in terms of its past. Yet, I imagine that now, even perhaps "then", a lot of people are trying their best to believe in the supportive togetherness of the group. That doesn't mean their best is very good. Nor does it mean their belief is grounded in fact.
However, my comments above are not concerned with the validity or invalidity or anyone's response to, or grasp of, situations. I'm (in this line of posting) only looking at how certain structural patterns of communication tend to create or not create certain outcomes.
Since I've been here I've observed people reacting oddly/poorly to many of your posts. And I don't think this just expresses their character or disagreement with you but rather is a kind of allergic response to a style. They often say as much. I was simply wondering whether, if this WERE the case, you would be willing to change that style IF you thought it was going to improve the atmosphere of current communications? Purely hypothetical.
I find your style (the one I'm referring to) often full of humor and certain full of moral concern. It has the additional interesting feature of always throwing an opportunity for "self-defined allegiance with good or bad forces" in the mixture of the phrasing. It is quite clear that this mode of speech triggers suspicion in many Integralites. At the moment it is quite beside the point whether such suspicion is deserved or not.
These sorts of remarks are the kind I'm investigating (again, structurally, not in terms of their validity):
You give me the "option" to be ignorant or pretending.
You give the community the "option" to be terrible or reverse your predictions.
You offer everyone, and me, the chance to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I am (to you) decent.
I am quite sure that this kind of logical form diminishes good will towards you and perhaps even works to erode the existing amount of exchanged decency. Now you might say that amount is minimal and these jerks have no good will to begin with, etc. But that does not concern me at the moment.
I am looking (and yes, thank your for the data) as this question: If there were a choice, would you opt to say with this mode of expression or opt to create a better interpersonal. IF those were the choices.
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My Gosh! Where To Start?
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to the options"If there were a choice, would you opt to say with this mode of expression or opt to create a better interpersonal ____________. IF those were the choices."
I assume that you mean stay? And to put some kind of word after interpersonal? Anyway I had already answered this question a couple of comments above. Why is it that you appear to have missed it?
"Any period of sinister anarchy is before my time and doesn't enter much into my picture of this community".
On a pragmatic level, I have usually found that when people insist on rigidly and compulsively trying to be in complete and total deniel of past relative reality they are at best of not much good to theirself or others. Learn from the past, live in the present, make a better future is a good and useful moto for me.
"You give me the "option" to be ignorant or pretending.
You give the community the "option" to be terrible or reverse your predictions.
You offer everyone, and me, the chance to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I am (to you) decent."
These are at best exagerations and more likely completly false representations of what I actually said. My actual words are there to refer back to. I have not thought that such sloppy thinking and/or deliberate misrepresentations were typical of you.
Would you please explain to me in plain language what is going on with you and if there is anything you want to directly and clearly say to me? I do not have a lot of time for useless chit chat.
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Formative Thought
Posted February 13th, 2012 by John Michael Davis in response to twin powers of integralismPerhaps we do have an integral community, perhaps an integral community does exist. perhaps we are communicating through a framework that does not support an integral meshing so perfectly. I don't think the problem is us. An integral community would have to be open-ended and all embracing. This current rendition is not so all embracing, it is a collective of integrally motivated drivers - by this I mean - facebook is actually more integral than integrallife - It transcends and includes everyone and links them by direct and indirect commonalities and draws more types and kinds to a common social matrix, however it is not yet an integral social matrix though it is certain that one will emerge eventually out of natural emulation and it will allow many to operate integrally without having to exactly consciously become aware of an integral state or stage.
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the lingering phantoms of our tomorrow
Posted February 13th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Formative Thought
Integral community can mean many different things. Up front it can mean the community which corresponds to those with relatively integral development OR the community which integrates the most other value systems.
In this latter category, integrality needs not only inclusion but holarchical inclusion. There has to be a vertical spectrum and not just a very wide net. However, Facebook and other electro-social systems are showing us facets of the technological and popular infrastructure which will be needed to augment personal development and new social practices (such as enhanced democracy). The necessary infrastructure has to be flexible enough to include everyone's value systems, enhance both autonomy & communion, encourage voluntary self-cultivation, and dramatically intensify the individual's ability to take advantage of personally relevant information and opportunities.
Piece by piece this vision of the technological and cultural correlates of integral development is emerging. We must see, intend & actualize the appropriate social matrix. And we must understand it as both tentative and threatened AND as inevitably victorious.
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Good Point
Posted February 13th, 2012 by Stanley in response to the lingering phantoms of our tomorrow
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integral dermatology, or: treating the redness
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Good PointThis is a rich topic.
What can we say about dealing responsibly with red elements? In ourselves these elements must be understood empathically, made healthy, made conscious and plugged into a higher power. But understand doesn't consist only of sympathizing. It also involves observing from the outside and knowing when to be forceful. Both these forms of understanding are necessary not only within us but within our seed-communities.
An Integralite, ultimately, wants to:
- understand our own historical and current redness
- help any red become healthier red
- help red transform into blue/amber
- protect other levels (esp. 2nd tier) from red barbarism
- police red with amber tools/rules
- convert & utilize red forces for integral advantage
That's a bunch of stuff. Hard for anyone to do all it very well. But we learn through pondering & practice. We are getting better at it and the possibilities of our eventual success are extraordinary.
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Nice
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to integral dermatology, or: treating the rednessI think that overall blue/amber is more effective in dealing with red than we are. But amber will not know to protect those at 2nd tier. So I would say that a person beginning their walk as 2nd tier might first need to focus on protecting 2nd tier from red barbarism. This is a good days work in and of itself.
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Liked that notion of "framework."
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Formative ThoughtJohn, I agree that format or "system," including "culture," plays a huge role in shaping individual minds. Didn't Demming's Continuous Quality Improvement ideas advocate looking at the system and tweaking it, as opposed to blaming individuals? I tend to agree with that basic idea of emphasizing the system, because a good system can bring out good in people. The system (including a "culture") needs to be user-friendly to human beings. The integral multiple perspective approach should help a system be more user-friendly because it allows (at least theoretically) for a wider range of perspectives and gifts to be brought together.
I prefer good old "holistic," or "integration" over the formal map of "Integral." To me, it just seems more workable to simply set about co-creating a healthy community and culture that values wholeness, interdependence ("one-body" consciousness) and that focusses on utilizing all types and shapes of human "gifts." Like any good work of art, the commuty/culture canvas will perform complex integral feats without labeling each and every movement or element. The less formal, holistic, approach was used in my little "thought-experiment-turned-book" of Allsville Emerging ( http://sbpra.com/DarrellMoneyhon ).
Formal analysis of an integral system would seem less important than a community or culture which artfully draws out the best in people and artfully is "open" to the gifts of each and every one of its participants. The Integral map seems awfully left-brain and complex to use as an everyday tool by the regular everyperson.
Wholeness and "integration" seem to be achievable in simpler, right-brain-ish (less precisely identified, even ineffable) ways. Perhaps using a few simple cues such as "principles" or "cultural cognitions." Even the cues need to be fairly user-friendly, not too hard for folks to wrap their minds around them.
Nonetheless, some degree of behind the scenes formal Integral analysis seems to be helpful in terms of increasing inclusiveness and allowing systems to accomodate a wider range of human interests, perspectives, and gifts. If the togetherness ain't there, what have we failed to build into the system?
In past blogs on this topic, I suggested looking at different human gifts ( a shift of focus to "types" or inner predispositions) instead of integral's preocupation with perspectives (quads). Based on gift-sorting and gift networking we could more effectively build a cohesive community (online or off) in which everyone would feel useful and valued according to his or her gifts.
Perhaps the systemic error that might be contributing to disharmony here is that we are sitting around intellectualizing too much (and having intellectual pissing contests), and failing to actually use our gifts. Even though, in Integral Spirituality, Ken conceptualized the quads and the 8 zones as being enactment zones as well as perspectives, the feel of most discussions here is that the quads and zones are perspectives from which intellectuals like to "see." Seeing does eventually lead to doing and being. But if there is too much love of seeing/discerning, then the process tends to stall at the stage of just "seeing" (thinking/analyzing).
Perhaps the integral map itself is a bit too precise or perfect for a wide range of people to easily enact. You can "break down" a complex idea just so much. After that it is like teaching a pig to sing. The perfect can be the enemy of the good. Is it possible that the integral map invites, calls out, a bit of intellectual over-analysis. Or, because of its complexity (lines, levels, quads, types—there's a lot going on in those maps!), it attracts heavyweight intellectuals/thinkers, just as the priesthood tends to attract pedophiles.
Are we franchising non-intellectual types or gifts to the same extent that we are attracting and engaging gifted (or wanna-be) intellectuals?
Each different basic type of gift or "gift orientation" (GO) needs a supportive enclave or gathering place, from which the gift can be allowed to resonate with others, can be more fully appreciated, can be more effectively developed, and then can be better harvested by the whole community.
Is our community providing such enclaves? Are we as a system and culture fully franchising our differently-gifted citizens?
Darrell
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Great!
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Liked that notion of "framework."I think you nailed it Darrell!
If we decided to " actually use our gifts" instead of only having intellectual pissing contests I believe that we would put ourself closer to good integral ethics and be set on an upward spiral. There will still be some old members who only know how to piss and it must be made clear that they don't have the right to do so on well meaning citizens.
I would add that it will be a glorious thing when we begin using our good gifts together as part of a strong and well meaning community. I feel this is not so far away as some think.
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Method for Assessing and Sorting Gifts?
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Great!Stanley, Do we have a method of assessing and sorting gifts? What percentage of our online participants actually feel pretty confident that they have found thier gift or calling or divine purpose? Do we have metrics?
I woke up in the middle of the night thinking that one antidote to just talking and talking and talking is to pass out a simple survey in which participants here can rate the IL community on a list of community characteristics. The community's sensitivity to finding and utilizing gifts would be one of the characteristics. I'm going to cheat and use the list that my fictional characters in "Allsville" (a proposed optimal community, from my book Allsville Emerging). This little survey is a very basic metric.
Our gift-utilization project would have to add sub-questions to item 4 below. But at least this is a start, and might evolve into something more constructive than talk, talk, talk. Even a simple survey like this would get people to take action, in the form of making a decision about how to rate the IL community on each of these five characteristics (possibly "factors").
Survey of Integral Life Online Community's Characteristics Text is from page 11 of Allsville Emerging ( www.allsvilleemerging.com or
An optimally healthy community would seem to have certain characteristics that less healthy communities lack. Todd thought of five main qualities that a community needs to have in order to be healthy: 1. The community needs to be aware. That means it needs to have citizens who are educated, accurately informed, self-aware, and aware of healthy vs. unhealthy relationship dynamics. rate IL community (underline one) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 2. A healthy community has a sense of challenge, is motivated to improve. 3. The community needs to be friendly and supportive. A healthy community is a place where folks know love, and show it. 4. It needs to be gift-utilizing. That means the community identifies and finds a way to use each citizen’s gifts/ talents. 5. Finally, the community needs to be simple and safe, a place where each citizen is relatively free of mental overload, and is relatively free of fear-invoking stimuli. Each citizen must be provided a safe and healthy environment that helps him or her maintain a peaceful state of mind.
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"Integral" Gifts
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Method for Assessing and Sorting Gifts?The primary "integral" gift I have seen expressed so far is unwell people trying to support pathological egos by trying to belittle others. Let's try to see if we have more in us.
I like your survey and would encourage you to bring it forward as a post or ongoing inquiry.
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Will
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to "Integral" GiftsWill ... do.
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Thanks
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to WillI am looking forward to seeing it.
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Did
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to ThanksI posted the survey. It sure is simple enough. Good enough? At least it might get an assessment process "ball" rolling. I took out any book "plugs," as it did not seem ethically appropriate (conflict of interest).
Darrell
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Thanks Again
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to DidI saw your post and I like it. I think it will help start us in thinking what we want to be about here. I plan to respond to it and add some comments but I don't want to be the first one in.
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color & paste
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Liked that notion of "framework."There is widespread support for a more complex integral community online system in which different styles and degrees of engagement are possible. Obviously the structure of interactions determines a large part of what kind of interactions arise. However there is also the danger of cheapening what is arising.
One tricky thing that happens periodically here is that people using their intellects to discuss intellectual elements of integral theory provoke a contrary instinct in other people who feel like "empty intellectualism is dominating". But more intuitive right brained approaches are naturally not showing up in such discussions and therefore not being left out or diminished by such discussions. Usually there is some other chat or even silent engagement where these "less overtly verbal" dimensions are showing up. And to some degree this is inevitable in a linguistic-electronic conversation forum. Electro-style linguistics will appear prominently and we should be as cautious about critiquing this as we would about complaining that a desert is lacking trees.
But until there is an easy way to sort gift-sharing & mutual-enhancement from theoretical engagements -- then those with a gift for theoretical engagements will appear superficially to hold the upper hand of the space.
There have always (or at least for a long time) been individuals reaching an "integral" level of consciousness in this or that line of intelligence. Today we have a great theoretical scaffolding to allow nest-building, etc. to occur socially at this lofty altitude. But the wire frame is only the beginning of the mold. Much color and paste is still needed. And figuring out how to include Integralists & Integralites, how to embrace the whole spiral while promoting second tier individuals, how to secure and develop ourselves with the intellectual while also expanding ourselves physically, emotionally, even irrationally... this is the task we are beginning. A task we are perfectly capable of achieving. A task that is preparing to place a lamp on a hilltop.
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Conveyor Belt
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to color & pasteLayman, I totally agree that the whole process takes time, and that it is, in fact, evolving gradually even now, "as we speak."
But, to use one of Ken's metaphors (or analogy?), don't we owe it to ourselves to create a "conveyor belt" to help speed up the evolution? I understand the wisdom of taking to heart the reassurance that it will all work out okay. Histrionic emotions of futility would interfere with the evolutionary process here. But there is also wisdom in not getting too comfortable, not doing too little, and not assuming that we are right on track. You know what they say about "assume" (makes an "ass" of "u" and "me")! Finding the right balance of sympathetic system's "let's do it" and parasympathetic system's "don't push the river" is where true wisdom lies.
I have long thought that one of the characteristics of (what I call) "thinking like matter" is dicotomous thinking, and that that limits us spiritually. Matter tends to be fairly descrete and/or definite. A tree is here. A rock is there. No tree-rocks. We get in the habit of thinking like that (dicotomously, or good old "duality"). We even see reality in terms of matter (probably because it is so useful to manipulate our environments).
But there is another "way" (tilt of hat to Taosim, and even Christ refered to this other "way"), and it looks more like thinking like energy, at least in the sense that energy translocates and creates fields. We haven't yet consistently developed the habit of thinking like fields. We are too busy thinking like rocks and trees. Western civilization has evolved to the point of thinking about energy, but not yet to thinking like energy.
One simple sign of progress toward thinking like energy would be the ability to think "and" instead of only "either/or." "And" thinking. I think I recall Ken using that term in one of his books or during some of his online writings. I got a taste of "and" thinking in graduate school for psychology. Psychology was beginning to discover"interaction effects" and other "ands," such as "multi-factor" causality, etc. You mention the power of an intellectual framework. By the late 70's (when I was in grad school) Psychology already had statistical methods it could use which took into account multiple factors and interactions of those factors. We had "ANOVA" (analysis of Variance), "multiple regression correlation," etc. While these were mathmatical something-or-others which I could not understand in any precise way (I am somewhat left-brain challenged), they did plant the seeds of "and thinking" in me. Most people don't get their heads stretched in just that way. It may take a while for the more fluid type of thought to catch on. I feel that the Integral Map (although a bit too challenging for most people) is doing its part to stretch our minds and help us think in "and" and "field" and energy-like ways.
All this to say, we need to think "Calm down and get busy." when it comes to creating a gift-utilizing online community, or a community strong in any number of other desirable characteristics.
In one of my comments today (to Stanley) I offer a simple little survey to help us get busy about working on the quality of our online community or culture. Assessment is not correction, but it is a first step. If the little survey shows that we, as a group, feel we are weak as regards certain community characteristics, then we can begin to brainstorm ways we might bump up that rating in the future. Identification of a problem can be the first step toward a solution.
I think metrics and other innovations/interventions might help us "spiral upward" (I think Stanley coined that phrase in this overall discussion, not quite sure. A lot of folks have said a lot of things here!). These interventions could form our own little "conveyor belt" for IL community evolution.
Darrell
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hear! hear! & there as well!
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Conveyor Belt
Advanced metrics, energetics as an interpretative metaphors & the possibility of providing "balancing" exercises wherever the community feels under-active are all terrific and essential. Thinking like a Gurdjieffian this morning I would like to suggest that certain energetic exercises might be very broadly useful in the sense of developing our collective ability to contain and conduct higher intensities. Practicing tolerance for cognitive dissonance, body sensing, not acting on automatic "leak" activities, drawing more power from our breath, staying present to absorb the emotional energy and attention of others even they are demonstrating apparent foolishness. All these kinds of "energy as material" activities revolve around a kind of general axis of developmental exercise which needs to complement the more targeted selection/balancing practices. We need to be well-rounded as individuals and as a community -- and we need to start thinking about the sturdiest, most flexible, most conductive, most intense, most unruffled, most vibrant, most electrically potent people around this planet. Somebody has to be. And we're in a great position to do it. We've already started.
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Logging/Journaling
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to hear! hear! & there as well!Layman, Here is an example of a kind of behavioral approach to growing spiritually. I will be using this log during my local "spiritual consensus project." Below is an example log that I used for my own growth. I think most of the techniques you described would be applicable to principles 1 (allowing mind to be set on wholeness) or 5 (letting go of problematic part-mind activities, fixations, attachments, over-strivings).
Practicing Of Spiritual Principles Log (POSPL) log date 2/10/2012
• spiritual principle of whole-to-part (In order to maintain awareness,
one must maintain the proper order of mind, which is from whole-mind to part-mind.
For many, the whole-mind state is signified by “God,” and is accessed by submitting to God.)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 (7) 8 9 10
Why that rating? Describe how you practiced the spiritual principle of whole-to-part.
Slow deep breathing before visit with friend at chemotherapy. Contemplative practice during wait at chemo, seeing the patients in empathetic, respectful, way - "What are they teaching me?" etc.
• spiritual principle of responsible creating (We are created in the image of a Creator.
That means we, like the Creator, can create. But we are free to create either a better or a
worse world. Irresponsible creating would involve any form of creating which takes us
away from the Source of creativity, and thereby leads to a worse world. It doesn’t really
matter whether the Source is conceived as whole-mindedness, or as any of the various
specific names of God. Responsible Creating “walks with God,” or “is governed by
whole-mind activity”, and “glorifies God,” or “promotes sustainable whole-mind activity.”)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8) 9 10
Why that rating? Describe how you practiced responsible creating. Work? Goals? Plans?
Based on my awareness from contemplating cancer patience, I developed and articulated a hybrid of learning and teaching, called "Leaching." A spiritual form of active listening in which you deeply sense what the person is saying and then teach them with what you "heard" from them. Teaching them with their own unheard messages. For example, if they show quiet strength and yet feel weak, teach them by giving feedback about their own quiet strength which they already show but aren't quite aware of. Teach them what they know down deep but may not remember or may not "know that they know."
• spiritual principle of interconnectedness (Some form of the golden rule is in nearly all
the religions. Its essential assumption is that all human beings are interconnected, such that
their actions affect one another. The advice which follows from that is “Treat others as you
would yourself, because they are you.” Acting and perceiving/feeling/sensing in accordance with that advice is practicing the principle of interconnectedness.)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9) 10
Why that rating? Describe how you practiced interconnecteness. Show compassion? Friendship? Supportive visit with friend in chemotherapy. Friendly, supportive, empathic attitude.
• spiritual principle of appreciation (Seeing self, others, and life
in general as being a gift. Acting and perceiving with an “attitude of gratitude.” Looking for
those gifts within or around you. Developing those gifts and/or putting them to good use.)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8) 9 10
Why that rating? Describe how you practiced appreciation. Appreciating the quiet strength of the cancer patients and realizing that they can teach me how to deal with adversity. Appreciating the Irish "Scone Lady" who happened to be there getting chemotherapy.
• spiritual principle of lightness (The mind tends to overheat and even at times starts to jam up, like an engine being run without lubricant, whenever it deals with too much detail or seriousness or control. The antidote to this tendency would seem to be to return the mind to to a state of peace, to ease up and become lighter. Recall the joke about why angels can fly? It’s because they take themselves lightly! The principle of lightness is practiced when we “Let go and let God.” Being non-materialistic and practicing non-attachment are also expressions of this principle.)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 (6) 7 8 9 10
Why that rating? Describe how you practiced peace, letting go, and/or simplification.
After observing/sensing the bravery and/or acceptance shown by the cancer patients, I felt a little more humble and less self absorbed than usual.
Darrell
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interconnectedness within one person
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Logging/Journalingspiritual principle of internal harmony (integrating intellect, emotion & sensory-instinctive intelligence; staying intentionally in-touch with heart, body and mind, making efforts to use them simultaneously in order to produce a blended, holistic inner condition.)
circle one: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8) 9 10
Why that rating? Describe how you made efforts to bring your primary inner functions together in either meditation or action in the world. Performing yogic stretching while trying to feeling into the "we" quality of my peer group. Witnessing mental activity while allowing free easy breathing and "wanting" to receive the nourishment from the air. Trying to intellectually articulate and physically embody the sublime emotions provoked by the startling beautiful sunset last night.
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sub-category of whole-to-part? or different?
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to interconnectedness within one personVery good extra principle. Or is it a sub-category of whole-to-part? I see it as a meta-cognitive technique involving an image or concept of an inner community (as in Naim Akbar's book The Community of Self), but based essentially in the "harmony" part, which is one main expression of whole-mind-activity or a wholeness function. The harmony (or "whole-mindedness," or "mind-full-ness") is then extended to all the part-mind activities (of intellect, emotion, sensory-instinctive intelligence).
During my blog talk radio interview with Sharon Ann Wikoff, I said the principle of interconnectedness is really just the application of the first principle of whole-to-part to beings beyond usual "self." All the subsequent "principles" (2-5) are offshoots, and "serve" wholeness, each in their own way.
Or perhaps, instead of a technique or subfunction of whole-to-part, your meta-cognitive techique of inner harmony might be a legit hybrid of principles 1 and 3.
What really matters is if it works for you. If listing it as a separate (6th) principle works for you, then it could, and should be added to at least your list. If others feel that way also, then during a spiritual consensus process, it can, and should, be added to the group's list as well. The list of 5 is only a starting point, or springboard, for true spirtual consensus.
I would propose to those engaging in a spiritual consensus group, that there should be given considerable consideration for seeing the principle you described/defined as being either a sub-catagory of principle 1 or a hybrid of 1 and 3. Why? because the shorter the list, the easier to wrap around people's minds.
I think the 10 commandments is a few commandments too many. In my "book" (figuratively speaking. Not in Allsville Emerging - although perhaps that point should have been!) even 5 is pushing it. Most modern minds are used to thinking in terms of only two (duality, dicotomies). We have to introduce a number 3 in order to try to integrate the 2. Christ is the third thing in Christianity, the extra thing that interfaces the other two (God beyond and God within) and allows for the social dimension of God with us (or LL, intersubjective, cultural, quad).
5 is pushing it. So, in my opinion, the consensus process should err in the direction of fewer, instead of more principles. But then that opinion can be overidden by a group during a true consensus process.
One of the elements of true consensus must be a good deliberation process. Making sure that weight is given to the concept of parsimony (actually related to principle 5, "lightness," or "simplicity" when viewed as a community characteristic) needs to be part of the group deliberation process. Consensus without critical analysis and extensive soul searching is not much of a consensus. It would be more like mindless concession.
Thanks for using the format and even expanding it. That brings to mind another part of true deliberation - trail and error. Thought or soul searching with out trying things and seeing what seems to work best is not full deliberation. I devote many (perhaps a disproportionate amount) of pages in my book to "mind experiments" which I categorize by "doors" to spirituality, whole-mindedness, and/or to the Master Tool (the "instrument" of the mind itself, as a whole). Thanks for experimenting with the spiritual principles I submitted here. It is a vital part of a group deliberation (and eventually a group consenus) process.
"5 C" process = conversation contemplation consensus cooperation codification (and then refreshed by returning occassionally to conversation ...)
I see experimentation or trail and error as being part of (loosely speaking) "contemplation" (and contemplation as significantly overlapping with what I am here calling "deliberation").
Another interesting idea which is related to what you did with inner harmony, is that each of the so-called principles are really only slightly translated versions of each of the 5 optimal community "characteristics." Using your (and Akbar's) concept of a community of self, the characteristics can be directly applied to self, without needing to voice them in terms of "principles." Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Thanks,
Darrell
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The Revenge of Pythagorus: 5 + 123? / 10? / 7? / at least 3!!!
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to sub-category of whole-to-part? or different?It's closely related to whole-part & also interconnectedness. Of course they're all closely related to each other. I consider this principle to a be key one without which many of the other activities may stall out over time. But of course the number is flexible since I could doubtless begin listing important additional practices until the cows come home. Small number and simplicity of structure are essential. That's one of the reasons I favor a Gurdjieffian expression (heart, mind, body) over a charka expression (7 systems! preposterous!)
Each of the 5, on the other hand, could have an internal/external form of practice. Very integral. Unfortunately that's also a sneaky way of jacking the number up to 10.
However if people aren't actively working to include and blend their emotional, physical and intellectual intelligence (which some people very intuitively, of course) then there's a strong chance they could run into trouble with any of the other practices. I think one of things that crops upon on this site often is the attempt of people to compensate for each other's favoring of one of these "lines" over another.
Enough. This thread is officially too long! I'll chat with you elsewhere, Darrell.
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There Are Also Forms of "Integral" Hostility....
Posted February 11th, 2012 by tanya charlieHi Stanley,
Do you know what hostility means?
Check this out:
Hostility (also called inimicality) is a form of angry internal rejection or denial in psychology. It is a part of personal construct psychology, developed by George Kelly. In everyday speech it is more commonly used as a synonym for anger and aggression.
In psychological terms, Kelly defined hostility as the willful refusal to accept evidence that one's perceptions of the world are in some way askew from or out of alignment with objective reality. Instead of realigning one's feelings and thoughts with objective reality, the hostile person attempts to force or coerce the world to fit their view, even if this is a forlorn hope, and even if it entails varying degrees of emotional expenditure or harm to self and others.
While challenging "apparent reality" with alternative approaches can be a useful part of life, and persistence in the face of failure is often a valuable trait in the fields of invention or discovery, in the case of hostility there is the distinction that the evidence is not accurately assessed when the decision is made to repeat the same approach. Instead the evidence is suppressed or denied, and deleted from awareness - the unfavorable evidence which might suggest that a prior belief is flawed is to various degrees ignored and willfully avoided. Metaphorically, it can be said that reality is being held for ransom, and in this sense hostility is a form of psychological extortion - an attempt to force reality to produce the desired feedback, in order that preconceptions become validated. In this sense, hostility is a response that forms part of discounting of unwanted cognitive dissonance.
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A Few Questions for Joseph Camosy
Posted February 12th, 2012 by Stanley in response to [Comment Deleted]I have a few questions directed at Joseph Camosy's comment above; which he later deleted along with other similar comments below. In these comments Joey indicated that it is a jolly funny thing when people are attacking and abusing others in a harmful and zoolike manner as long as they are not attacking and abusing him. It appears to this author that by deleting his comments Joey is showing that he is as cowardly as he is vile.
- Does a website have a right to enforce its own guidelines? As in;
- Does a goverment have as right to enforce its own laws? As in "Madonna's Stalker, Robert Dewey Hoskins, Caught | PG-13 After escaping from a mental institution last week, Madonna's stalker, Robert Dewey Hoskins, was caught and taken into custody."
- When inevitable positive change occurs is one still holding reality hostage?
- In your neighborhood do human beings live inside zoo cages? In my area these are reserved for animals.
- Why are toys sometimes unwanted?
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Let's See
Posted February 13th, 2012 by Stanley in response to [Comment Deleted]“...hooks for those projections, see it projected, etc. etc. etc. etc.” This is a long shot but I have a hypothesis that there just might be a little more to relative reality than just little Stanley’s projections. The ultimate test for this will come when little Stanly dies. Will all of relative reality die with him? Let us stay tuned and see.
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Projection, Correction
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to [Comment Deleted]Joe, good point about projection: "The problem with the narcissist isn't that he/she looks too long at them self, it's that they hold tight to a single image of themselves as being a unity instead of seeing the multiplicity of voices and drives that they truly are. When one is unaware of the fragmentation within, they'll see it projected outside in the form of enemies and allies - things desired and feared, and may in fact embark on a crusade to try and enforce a unity on things. "
But I like some of the discussion here that challenges us to look at why the system might be drawing that (what you said there) out. If this has become an overly competitive culture (I speculated about intellectual pissing contests), then it would put more defensiveness on the individual and would cause him or her to feign "having it all together" personally, instead of admitting all the non-integrated fragments of self, and then patiently working on integration. Personal growth works best in a less competitive, safer, environment. Therapy groups need to be safe zones. It's threatening enough to face one's own personal demons or shadows. External pressure to win or save face only makes the projection you correctly identified grow worse.
A safe, nurturing, culture could help folks reclaim their (our) projections. Not so if there is percieved pressure to win or prove one's point. Can something like intellectual competitiveness be measured here? Is it high?
Could we establish safe zones (someone mentioned wading pools, as opposed to the shark tanks here.)?
I still think a cultural shift away from "test and select" (by "test" I mean to run through the gauntlet) to a group culture model of "assess and sort" (assess and sort basic human gifts that can be used in our community) should be considered. What can we do to enact "assess and sort?"
Here is an excerpt from my book about this shift of social paradigm:
from pages 181-182 of Allsville Emerging ( http://sbpra.com/DarrellMoneyhon ) :
In a giftocracy, capitalism’s reenactment of “survival of
the fittest” is replaced with “survival of the fitting-est.” By
fitting-est, I mean that the collectives (such as Allsville) that
are able to get the right persons in the right jobs will adapt
much better than groups that fail to do so. The ability to
harness the various natural aptitudes and personality orientations
(or, roughly speaking, “gifts”) is what helps social
groups survive and prosper.
Thus, the test and select method of capitalism will be
replaced with giftocracy’s assess and sort method. “Sort”
would also include sorting the citizen into the best-fitting
specialized education tracks that will develop the assessed
aptitudes, or gifts. After the gift is developed within the educational
system, then Allsville will sort out which job assignment
will best utilize that individul’s gifts. When the
right gifts are placed in the right niches, a kind of workable
egalitarianism is formed.
Such a system is workable, because gifts will sort out
(for example) the best thinkers for thinking tasks, the best
dreamers/intuiters for creative tasks and for early-stage innovation,
the best relaters for healing and facilitation of social
well-being, and the best doers for getting projects done in
an efficient and effective manner.
Darrell
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floating to the bottom
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to [Comment Deleted]Joel, I loved the ideas you put forward there. Regaring the last point, yes going deep is very important. Just going high ends up being obsessive compulsive trying-too-hard and artificial. Plunge the depths of the soul. But as you suggested, this could be accomplished best with a reliable and trustworthy guide (or multiple guides/facilitators) who have one foot in spirit and one foot in the world. Also, if the participants have some "faith crutches" it reduces the fear and resistance (resistance is a huge issue in psychotherapy as well as in true personal growth, especially the deep, soulful, variety you are talking about here). By "faith crutch" I mean cognitions (even meaningful myths) which reasure the journeyperson that the trip into the depths of self can be made safely. These cogintions can be like talismans to carry during the journey, or like pacifiers to comfort and reduce fear or frustration. One such cognition is
1. "If you go deep enough, the hellish, nightmarish, stuff melts away to something like an eye of a hurricane. Deep is safe, as long as you remain committed to going all the way in. It's when you allow yourself to go only part way deep that problems occur. Be reasurred that going deep will work just fine if you don't do it half-ass."
2. "If you learn to lower your resistance, the deep dark forests of self will not devour you. You can, in effect, float to the bottom, rather than sink, kicking and screaming, to the bottom. What demon can harm something it cannot see? Lowering your resistance renders you virtually invisible to low-frequency self fragments or complexes that act like demons. Or at the very least, they don't see you sweating, and they'll let their guard down enough that you can touch them and disolve them."
Regarding cognition #2, I once successfuly mitigated root canal pain without using pain killers. I simply observed the pain (Had cognition that pain is mostly reaction, so don't react. Simply observe. This, in effect, lowered my resistance). Also, I got inside the pain. I had to believe #1 above to buy into and to use that technique. The two together (simply observe, go inside it) combined 1 and 2 above. It worked beautifully. I was even disapointed when my little vacation to "Painville" ended. By then I had natural opiates (endorphins) released in my body, and felt lightly elated, similar (but not as "high") to how I felt after dimerol (I think that was the drug) following knee surgery several years before.
Going deep and lowering resistance also allowed me to stop coughing during a cold, while wide awake. If you try to stop coughing at all, it only gets worse. But at least this one time I was able to get inside of the cough and transcend it, or bypass it, just as we apparently do while sleeping or runnng.
In Allsville Emerging ( http://sbpra.com/DarrellMoneyhon ) I explore these two foci (deep, lowering resistance) along with several other "doors" to "whole-mind activity" and "spiritual" states. I document quite a few "mind experiments" which I performed using each of the "doors." This occurs in chapter 4, and makes for a rather long chapter, and at first glance it doesn't even seem to be all that essential to a book about building an optimal community. Chapters 3 and 4 (both about mind skills) appear to be a book within a book. But it was thought that "mind skills" amoung the citizenry was one of the keys to success. Awareness/consciousness and other virtuous qualities could not be "grown" in "Allsville" unless folks knew how to handle the mind (as though it were a "tool"—The Master Tool).
Joe, you had the same sort of insight in your comment as I did while doing my thought experiment that eventually turned into a book. Mind skills (including the plunging into the depths in order to achieve greater personality integration and spiritual strength) are an important factor in making an optimal community, whether in imaginary Allsville or here in this real online community.
Darrell
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Yes Again
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Projection, Correction"Personal growth works best in a less competitive, safer, environment. Therapy groups need to be safe zones"
"A safe, nurturing, culture could help folks reclaim their (our) projections."
The fact that we have not yet set up a community where everyone feels safe does a lot to explain what a mess we have made and why we have done so little good in the world.
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Territory and Map
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Yes AgainStan, my man,
I think to some extent we can't see the territory for the map (a play on the phrase "Can't see the forest for the trees"). Perhaps we've been working on making the perfect carpentry tool while the house has been falling down around us.
Not that we have to quite working on the tool, but perhaps we can use some of it's "good" essence (wholeness, integration, unification, multiple-factor awareness, field consciousness, "and thinking" etc.) to work on our house now.
We may have allowed the perfect to become the enemy of the good. The IL map has some very good implications, and offers us some very good thinking habits. We could put the essence of the map to good use in some down-to-earth ways here.
That is, if the motivation is really there. If no one nibbles on concrete suggestions offered to improve our online community, then it might indicate that we are addicted to pontificating and intellectualizing.
Intellectualizing is one of the standard defence mechanisms that the ego uses. It is when the intellect is used to gloss over feared realities or problems, instead of being used to solve those problems.
Intellectualization might be related to the theme of this discussion, narcism. Both are a form of pretending greater self-efficacy than is really the case. "What a beautiful intellect I have" is as much a part of narcism as is "What a dashing chin I have." Although much of the defence mechanism of intellectualizing is simply about avoiding something. It is not always used to prop one's self up. The defence mecahism of intellectualizing and the phenomenon of narcism overlap but are not one and the same.
Darrell
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100% Agreement
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Territory and Map"We could put the essence of the map to good use in some down-to-earth ways here."
It has been a huge frustration and disappointment that we have not been able to do this yet. But I feel that a shift is in the wind and that you will be a big part of this shift.
"we are addicted to pontificating and intellectualizing. "
I don't see a fixed we here. What I have seen happen is that Integrallife has not been good about enforcing its guidelines. A few people at pathological red were quick to take advantage of this. What we see at this point is that our best members have left and what is remaining is, well not our best. As Integrallife gets better about enforcing its guidelines we will be able to attract and hold more good and decent human beings. Then we will be able to use our talents to do something most wonderful in the World. Please stick around and help us make this happen.
Thanks for your contributions here.
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Four Gears For Governing
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to 100% AgreementStanley, in my book the fictional citizens of Allsville use an orientation called The Regulation Matrix. The Regulation Matrix was based on the idea of least restrictive intervention which I saw used in behavior management in psychiatric hospitals and in prisons. You don't bring out the leather restraints first, you try to talk the person down. I once successfully talked down an angry psychotic large man, even while other staff had the restraints in hand. And the talk worked. The patient did not blow up during the weekend (the incident happened on a Friday). I had delayed trauma effects, but the talking worked.
But, of course, not always. The policy is to always try a series of less restrictive steps before going to more restrictive or intrusive measures. While writing Allsville Emerging, I thought "Regulating human behavior is regulating human behavior, regardless if it occurs in a psych ward or during 'government'."So I applied the concept of least restrictive intervention to the governing function of Allsville (with only 4 steps or modes, depicted in a simple 4-cell matrix).
My thoughts-manifested-as-characters chose to emphasize the cell that governs by culture, and to use that as much as possible, or as the "default program" for governing the people of Allsville. After the book, I thought of calling the Regulation Matrix "Four Gears for Governing." More user-friendly. Also, kinda catchy.
Govern-by-culture is "3rd gear." It is a "higher" and ultimately more effective way to govern. Not as high as enlightenment, but the terrain may be too steep and rough yet to rely much on 4th gear.
Good old law and order with punitive consequences was/is first gear. Something like "personal accountability,""personal discipline," or "making yourself do right" (via internalized "shoulds"and "should nots") is 2nd gear.
The red level folks might require us to downshift to first gear in order to deal with the lower frequencies, higher resistance, and "rougher road" or challenging incline. But if we use 3rd gear effectively, we probably won't have to do that as much. That means we have to figure out how to mutually, democratially, engineer our culture here. What cultural cognitions will be plant here, what values will be promote? All that has to be decided in an intentional way (lot of LL quad attention) if we are to hope to achieve an optimal community. They did in Allsville, but that was still only virtual, or make believe. This could be our actual Allsville ("Allsville" being my metaphor of a really healthy and optimal community, anywhere, by any name).
Also, I think that culture might even be effective with some of the red ones. Why? Because they are probably not red all the way accross the various developmental lines. We may have emotionally red members who are intellectually at an integral level. They can think integrally, but shadow fixations hold their emotional intelligence much lower. But Ken has said more than once that the intellectual line can be sort of a catalyst to help advancement in the other lines, such as the spiritual line. Not a garantee, but could greatly help. Those emotional reds at least have integral knowledge which, if they chose to do so, could be quite helpful in assisting them during shadow work or spiritual growth, etc. Even the understanding that the lines can be at various hieghts is an "integral" concept which could free the person from the delusion or wrong assumption that their emotional/psychological development must be (and/or is) at about the same level as their thinking.
So we infuse the culture with those integral insights that let the emotionally fixated realize that it's okay to admit you are struggling in the emotional growth line. "It doesn't mean you are a dummy. It doesn't even mean you have to stay there. And it definitely doesn't mean we will look down on you. We are mothers and nurturing fathers who will gently and safely help you go into whatever 'positive disintegration' (Dobroski) you need to in order to rise like a Pheonix from the ashes of your shadow-fragments and personal demons."
Darrell
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Nice Ideas
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Four Gears For GoverningOne thing that has frustrated me here is that I have seen very few people willing to stand up and say that we want our culture here to stand for something good. I think that if we had more of this that it would not be necessary to ban many people, maybe none at all.
I would love to see more mothers and nuturing fathers here. That would give us a safe and healing base from which to grow. For most of us that is how good growth occurs.
We seem to be on the same wavelength Darrell. A community can be as little as two people.
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Intention, Culture, and Responsibility
Posted February 17th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Nice IdeasIn response to your powerful phrase "...stand up and say that we want our culture here to stand for something good," below are some thoughts (lifted from my book) about culture-creating. No reason we can't put these thoughts to good use here at IL:
The Underestimated Power of Culture:
The one thing which most systems that are designed to
improve the world have grossly underestimated is the power
of culture. Culture helps shape our minds and it inspires us
to work together in certain ways.
Culture cultivates. Culture can cultivate greed, impulsiveness,
lack of discipline, and selfishness. Culture can also
draw out charity, personal discipline, and meaningful relationships.
Like any vehicle, culture can deliver good things
or bad.
Intentionality and Culture:
To Todd, it seemed that we tend to view culture as a strictly
natural event over which we have no control, as though it
were an accident that happened gradually over many years.
But culture is the result of specific human choices. A poet
chooses to write a poem that helps people explore personal
experiences and meanings. Her poem is a contribution to the
culture. Like it or not, the poet is a culture shaper. If she
writes a lot of poems that affect people and are widely read,
one could argue that the poet has progressed beyond a mere
shaping of culture. She has become a “cultural engineer”
who significantly impacts the way people see their lives and
how they live their lives.
Who Is in Charge of Culture?
Todd believed that culture is always engineered, by someone.
We tend to leave it up to chance as to who are the engineers.
In the current mainstream culture, we seem to be
waiting around for someone to take the lead, while we simply
take our places on the back of the bus. Unfortunately,
the ones who tend to grab the buss’s steering wheel are often
operating more out of ambition or aggression, than out of
wisdom and social compassion. Todd thought that it’s more
honest, and much healthier, for us to take collective responsibility
for engineering an optimally healthy culture, and to
let everyone have a voice or a vote as regards the culture they
create.
Making a High-Trust Culture:
Todd recalled how Stephen Covey, toward the beginning of
his book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, used
the term “low trust climate.” Covey was describing an underlying
problem in businesses that use short-range and fairly
superficial interventions such as mergers or trendy training
programs to boost sales, productivity, or to improve effective
management, rather than gradually building up a trustworthy
workplace culture that is based on good character and that, in
turn, develops more character.
Is a larger low-trust climate that is devoid of good character
evolving in the marketplace? In our own homes via
TV commercials? In our minds as we either succumb to
the manipulation, or as we burn out from the overload and
confusion of an environment cluttered with manipulation
and too many meaningless choices?
A simple question with provocative implications came to
Todd’s mind. What if the market was transformed gradually
into something that, first and foremost, served, rather than
used its customers? Where things work for people, instead
of people working for things. The market could be used to
develop a genuinely high-trust culture that could emancipate
us from the intentional and/or unintentional enslavement of
our minds. The awareness of this possibility helps deliver
virtue.
Importance of Awareness of Human Gifts:
Chapter 5 taps into the third vehicle for virtue, reason,
and the first, awareness. This chapter highlights reason via
the conceptualization of a new educational system called
“The Function of Matching and Personal Development.” It
addresses awareness because of the self-awareness effects
(upon the students) of this educational approach. The FMPD
emphasizes personal gift assessment and development, rather
than the traditional emphasis on putting information into the
heads of students, or of imposing generic skills that often fail
to match the individual student’s natural aptitudes (“gifts”),
unique intelligence, or learning style. The gift assessment
and development is followed up with individualized placement
into job training and into actual occupational niches.
Best Scale for Social Transformation:
One objective characteristic of this book which might set
it apart from other writings or discussions about the topic of
culture-creating is the fact that Allsville Emerging devotes a
great deal of attention toward blueprinting a fictional model
community, at the level of a small town. This characteristic
appears to give the book an advantage over many of the
broader, more general, discourses about cultural transformation.
On the other hand, many other discussions have leaned
the opposite direction, toward the narrow focus of the individual,
with a “Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin
with me” line of thought.
As compared to these more general or more narrow approaches,
the current offering seems like the bed in the Goldilocks
fable, in that it feels “just right” for investigating the
most effective means of implementing the envisioned social
changes; this, despite the fact that it is only a virtual community,
a drawing-board version of a model community.
During my blogging participations online, I rarely encounter
discussions geared toward making a scaled-down version
of the world or of a nation, in the form of a model town.
Yet, the hallmark of scientific investigation is to start small,
with simulated realities called “experiments,” and then see if
the observations on that smaller, artificially-controlled, scale
can be generalized to larger and/or more naturally occurring
circumstances. This is the reason I focussed on a model community.
The book is intended to be a plan for a sociocultural
experiment.
Darrell
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the ultimate unwanted toy
Posted February 13th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to [Comment Deleted]Good points Red Lion,
We should bear in mind the Lacanian myth about the ultimate unwanted toy. It says that an infant human (and several pseudo-sapient higher mammals) goes through an early "mirror phase". This is where we learn self-recognition -- an exciting new form of organization and control for the organism. With our infantile skill level we assemble a inner self-image which is collaged out of varies bits of self-observation, emotional surges, observations of other children, animals and people. A real Frankenstein's monster. Humanish -- but not a real unity.
Later, when we pass through the Oedipal gate and gain the ability to identify ourselves with the self-concept, the cultural "I" and its sequential memories, then we can move off our primitive "training wheels". We can let go of the infantile, patchwork self-image with all its gross distortions and uninspected chaotic multiplicity. But, human families being what they are, we seldom pull this off with perfect smoothness. Thus a lifetime may be spent attempting to complete the transition. Direct self-sensing, self-exploration, tolerance of inner lack, chaos and disunity all become necessary skills for reassimilating the temporary self-reflection monster that lingers under the surface of our psychological pond. It will let go fully only when we have rendered it redundant.
But we can do it!
The path is well trod and the destination is sweet.
Thanks, I've been...
Layman Pascal
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Growth environment
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to the ultimate unwanted toyLayman, In a comment above, to Joe, I suggest we look at what we can do in the environment of this online community to creat a safe zone where we could feel non-defensive enough to dare to do the self exploration work and "tolerance of inner lack, chaos, and disunity" that you mention as part of the second stage of "self." Past the "training wheels self."
See my above excerpt about a shift from environmental (cultural) qualities of "test and select" to the qualities of "assess and sort." In my book I describe a new system called "Giftocracy" which replaces the test and select methodology of capitalism. When the person with an infantile, pasted-together, self image sees that the group is no longer testing and selecting, but, instead is looking to find each and every person's inner gift(s), then it is much safer, and more affordable, to self-explore and to face the fragments, etc. This is far less likely in a highly competitive environment in which we feel pressure to try to prove that we are not a "loser" or a "misfit toy."
A wider range of gifts is valued and used under the assess and sort method of enacting social groups. Then it becomes much safer and more worthwhile to explore "what is my gift?" If there is faith that the person has a gift (and that we are dedicated to finding it if it is not yet visible or actualized), then the individual has much less reason to be highly defensive about his or her faults/weaknesses. Those faults simply aren't his or her gift. Knowing that I do have a gift allows me to accept those weak areas. If I felt like I was about to be cast out to the island of misfit toys as a loser, then I could not stand to admit those shameful deficits. Having a sense of a true gift and sense of a purpose makes me much less defensive about my flaws. Flaws are simply my non-gift areas, not proof of my worthlessness.
Do we have anything remotely resembling a system to identify and utilize different types of human gifts here at IL? Until we do, we will constantly feel the hot breath of a competitive society breathing down our necks. We will cling to whatever pasted-together self image we can, just to stay afloat or to keep from looking like a loser.
Darrell
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that hideous thing in the mirror
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to [Comment Deleted]Yes, the "self-reflection monster" I mentioned is the particular toy I was focused on in the whole post -- the self-image amalgam which is used to establish narcissistic control. The primitive Frankenstein's monster which is looking back at from the reflecting pool. The disunity pseudo-self which lurks lower than the conceptual-verbal self. A primitive self-circuit which has utility until we develop systems which can do an even better job as organizing and reflecting. It is unwanted in two senses -- first we would like to move on, second we resist encountering it directly even when we are must under its sway.
Thanks, I've been...
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Calling and Purpose
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to that hideous thing in the mirrorLayman, While processing the possibility that the book I wrote might be part of a true calling or individual purpose, I woke up one night feeling like I was a conduit. I could feel the Universe moving through me. Part of a process of no longer needing the pasted together training wheel self or primitive Frankenstien. I feel I have a purpose. Now I just do what I am called to do. Not only that, but mostly that. And my confidence (true, not overcompensated cockiness) has gone way up.
Darrelll
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inner shifts
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Calling and PurposeYOU wrote a book???
That is to say: thanks for your confession. We could use a lot more conversation describing the various ways in which people have felt released from or moved beyond the previously limiting structures of their consciousness and energetic conductivity. Your confidence and purpose both reflect and encourage everyone here, Darrell. These are precisely the kinds of qualities we need in order to bring about an evolving, multi-dimensional organic planetary wisdom-civilization.
Amen.
Thanks, I've been...
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Projection and Reclaiming the Projections
Posted February 15th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to inner shiftsYes, I am still reclaiming the many projections contained in my book. I read the thing and it seems "bigger" and more lucid than I generally am. It is like I somehow wrote my own bible! Talk about narcism!
But I don't feel self-absorbed or narcistic in regards to this thing I did, this book. It is more the opposite. I am in awe of something that came through me but is somehow much bigger and better than the ordinary me. My reclaiming of the projections in the book has become something like Moses's looking at the burning bush. Something shines or burns, and keeps on burning, in the words I wrote (most of them. Certainly not all.). Unusual amounts of truth and wisdom seem to eminate from this thing that came from me, or through me.
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Positive and Negative Projection
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Projection and Reclaiming the ProjectionsIn psychology, all they ever talked about in regards to the defense mechanism of projection is negative projection. I don't once recall any mention of the possibility of positive projection. I remedy that in my book.
Recall my mention in this overall discussion of 5 healthy community characteristics which we might use as items on a survey in which IL participants rate the IL community according to each of those 5 characteristics. Well, as the book evolved, I began to see different levels of abstraction which corresponded with these 5 characteristics. One level up, they could be seen as "core virtues" which can emanate both individually and collectively from human beings. Core virtues are concieved as being transpersonal, rather than only the traditional personal version of a virtue. In this sense, the "one body" of the community not only has the 5 characteristics in a passive sort of way, but these characteristics-viewed-as-core-virtues shine out like a light and actually form new creations. A community characteristic and a core virtue are about the same thing, but core virtue is a slightly more abstract and dynamic version of the characteristics. As of the time of writing the book, I did not really distinguish a difference in level between "core virtues" and community characteristics. I refered to them in a way that suggested they were interchangable or synonomous. Now, after completing the book, I see "core virtues" as being one level closer to an abstract, flexible, noncorporal, spiritual end of a continuum.
The next level up (or deeper, closer to the core of the continuously unfolding self) is what I call "spiritual principles." Each of the 5 original community characteristics (and/or "core virtues") are translated into the terms of a principle which can help activate the person's spiritual function corresponding to (or with?) that principle.
Finally, on a totally transpersonal, abstract, or universal level, each of the 5 characteristics are translated into terms of laws. In Allsville Emerging, they are called The Five Laws of Spiritual Energy. Clearly the fictional citizens of Allsville, conceptualize the true nature of their being as energy-based. Hence, "spirit" is seen as related to characteristics of energy. Also, the laws are applicable to human beings. Human beings have the capacity to work with those "laws," rather than the laws being imposed top down upon them. Of course if you ignore an aspect of reality, such as a law, then you do end up spiting into the wind, and, at some point get spit on your face, as though the law was imposed on your will, or against your will. But this is an ego-dystonic, external locus of control way of looking at a law, and distorts the nature of the concept of a law as used in the book. Perhaps "self-forming format of energy" should be used in place of the word "law," since we tend to equate (incorrectly, as in "equivocate") law with external forces or externally imposed actions.
The "law" of projection is not external. Its movement comes from the inside and goes outside from there. In fact, none of the laws are removed from the inner providence of self. We all have the capacity to do the laws.
When looking at these laws as being but different aspects (or as Wayne Dyer says, "faces") of one Spirit, or God, then it is also true that we do God. I have been thinking of making a bumper sticker that states just that: "Do God." Not, of course, meaning "do" as in having intercourse with, before tossing aside ("I did her."). But meaning we do God in the same way we do good. God is a response which we are capable of having. Or, perhaps, more like a light switch that we can flip to the on position, at which point Presence and Light is. Godliness is up to us, not up in the sky.
Back to the law of projection. In bold is the part about positive projection. Most of our discussion here has been about negative projection of disowned red-level emotions and motives by certain IL participants upon others. But it is important for us to acknowledge and actually use positive projection as a means to summons up our (spiritual) healing powers. We can reclaim our odd words and then have the spiritual power to heal the IL community from its current infliction of direct and vieled hostilities.
from pages 438-439 of Allsville Emerging:
Law of Projection
To the extent that the matter, or “flesh,” in which the spiritual
energy “dwells,” is neither transformed (see Law of Transformation)
nor destroyed (see Law of Anti-bondage), then
the spiritual energy is projected outward onto other matter
or processes. Projection takes two main forms: positive and
negative.
Positive projection manifests constructive energy patterns
outwardly because they have not been clearly seen, understood,
or embraced within the parameters of the matter in
which the spiritual energy is based (in human beings, “the
matter in which the spiritual energy is based” means the
self). Positive projection is a way to get the energy form “out
there,” so it may be seen and investigated. Once it has been
seen, then the energy form may be understood. Eventually it
may be embraced as something that is “true.”
Once the energy form is projected, it can be reclaimed (via
the Law of Attraction, see below) through one or more of
the five senses. The material aspect of self then has a chance
to be transformed (see Law of Transformation) into a state
which better serves the spiritual goal of becoming whole.
For example, seeing beauty around you can be a way of positively
projecting the beauty of your spirit, so the “flesh” can
comprehend your own inner beauty.
Negative projection gets the energy which is in a high
resistance format (High resistance energy tends to block
wholeness.) “out there,” into objective awareness/consciousness,
where it may be “grasped” (understood) mentally, and
may be addressed, worked on, processed, and corrected.
“May” is an important word. Unfortunately, when we negatively
project, we often become comfortable in distancing
ourselves from the negative quality. In that case, what we
may do with projection becomes what we don’t do. Instead
of processing the projection in a way that eventually “turns a
negative into a positive,” we end up mentally and behaviorally
trying the negate the negative quality. When we take this
course we usually end up making more problems than solutions.
Worse yet, we miss opportunities for personal transformation.
The merry, merry month of May can be the scary,
scary, month of May(be) Not!
Nonetheless, we nearly always have the potential to reclaim
the projection, and to process it in a productive manner.
For example, seeing evil or “ugliness” in the world can
be a way of eventually readdressing our own spirit’s contamination.
In the challenge of facing it out there, we sometimes
come to realize that “We have met the enemy, and it is us.”
The Law of Projection is related to the birthright, need,
and virtue of Challenge, because mental projections and human
projects create interactive learning opportunities which
hone our skills and test our understanding.
Darrell
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the projection booth
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Layman Pascal in response to Positive and Negative ProjectionThe world of "projection" is a facet of the subtle realm -- for good or ill.
In studying the life of Wilhelm Reich, observing his instinctive twin fascinations with psychological transference and orgone energy, one is tempted to think that projection isn't purely abstract, that it actually has a "screen" which occurs around and between psyches, an energetic mist -- just as art film directors can project film images onto clouds of smoke...
--
Thanks, I've been...
Layman Pascal
(to receive other "Weekly Harangues" write to: pretendtomeditate@gmail.com)
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Reclaimed Projections
Posted February 16th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to the projection booth... would be integrating subtle body mist-things with causal body formlessness, "no-thing," or "it-all" wholeness (wouldn't it?). As the reclaiming of the projection occurs, there is a slight increase in awakening from (what the German Idealists call) the great slumbering.
I like the animated movie Waking Life because it showed the process of continuing to wake up from various layers of subtle body mist. At some point the gross body and the subtle body themselves will be understood as less-real "projections" of causal body. Even the screens are illusions, not just the images projected onto them.
Darrell
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Well Boys and Girls
Posted February 14th, 2012 by Stanley in response to There Are Also Forms of "Integral" Hostility....If you too have the dedication, persistence, and excessive time to waste to generate hundreds of obnoxious and ugly comments of abuse like Tanyas over a long period of time, directed at numerous members, who have all told you to stop, you might be able to achieve being at least temporarily banned from our community. It is extremely hard work but it is achievable. Or as our culture begins to shift the work might actually begin to get a little easier. Let us see.
--
No cyber-stalking please. http://integrallife.com/member/stanley/blog/cyber-stalking
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Liked Your Positive Self-fulfilling Prophesy
Posted February 17th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Well Boys and Girls"Or as our culture begins to shift the work might actually begin to get a little easier."
If we think it (and keep thinking it) , it will be.
Darrell
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At Ken's Recent Post, I Said This, in Referrence to Our Discussion Here
Posted February 17th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to Well Boys and GirlsAbout Ken's prompting everyone to look at the various factors and evidences before reaching a conclusion or taking irreversible action about the scandal in which Marc Gafne is embroiled:
..."I love the multiple factor or "and" way of your seeing the situation. It is more true to how real life really is. Highly interactive, like a chemical compound consisting of many elements in which the whole is greater (or qualitatively different) than the sum of their parts. Such open thinking seems at the heart of an "integral" approach. It is a "look (really look, in an open-minded, mindful, sort of way) before you leap" way of enacting life.
This wisdom helps us all slow down and avoid "projecting" on someone else, "out there," when, in fact, it may be (like Robb said in his post) a great "object lesson" for us. Here we are at IL internally processing some problems of rude (or worse?) behavior in the body of our own online community? It seems to me that it is both ironic and potentially instructive that the two "issues" are going on at the same time.
In my opinion the IL community has been given a gift. These syncronized events are helping us wake up, helping us explore our own community's imperfections and/or fragmentation, and helping us to have what pschology author Dobroski (sp?) called "positive disintigration." We can grow from this, if we appreciate it for what it is—a gift, or at least an opportunity.
I had the honor of participating in some internal discussions about making our blog space a safer and higher-trust enviornment in which we can better nurture each other to grow. In true integral fashion, ideas pertaining to all quads have been generated, are being deliberated, and seem to be gradually synthesizing into some sort of group proposal, strategy, or plan. I have been witnessing a healing process in our community recently. It is almost like a miracle. "
And I meant every word of it.
Just look at how the energy overall in this discussion shifted from problem to hints of real solutions, from negative to positive.
On a less positive note, one of the discussion members apparently left before our healing session was over. I valued what that person said about the role of a "psychoplomb"(?). I had never heard that concept or name before. But ever since I heard him say it and describe it, I have been wanting to apply for the job!
In effect, one of my responses to that comment was a resume that I submitted for the job. But by the time I returned for the second interview, the "employer" had left our discussion.
I think Stanely was trying to convey to the participant the need for us to cut down on the "gallows humor," but the participant apparently took offense to the confrontation. I suppose that could be another object lesson.
Please take my speculations about this matter with a grain of salt, because I don't know the history between Stanely and the participant. But here is a debriefing sort of question that I offer nonetheless: Could Stanely have articulated the concern in a way that would not have made the participant as defensive? Sometimes it's not what we say, but how we say it. Could the addition of an intitial qualifying statement such as "I know you were probably using humor to vent, but ..." helped reduce defensiveness? If it was a matter of the participant being a bit thin skinned, what could we do culture-wise to offset that tendency with an undercurrent of trust? I think Stephen Covey had the right idea about an "emotional bank account" in relationships. If we learn as a group to make plenty of deposits, then an occassional withdrawal will not create as much defensiveness, even in cases where the participant may have "thin skin" (Please understand, I have no idea whether the participant had that condition or not. It is just a speculation about a possible factor).
The fact that there was a relative failure here (a participant leaving the discussion and deleting his/her comments), though does not negate the overall shift of energy from negative to postive. We took some lemons and made lemonade here. This doesn't always happen.
Do other participants feel the post ended up being productive? Transformative?
Also, where do we go from here, such that it was not only about venting or mere catharsis?
Layman indicate we need to move on, since the post is very long already. But I don't want to move on without a proposal for a specific forum for us to continue processing corrective ideas. On possible forum could be at the site I set up for a survey about community characteristics. I suppose we could look at even a few ratings and speculate problems to address low areas, percieved weak points, in the IL community or culture.
But I prefer to see a commitment or a plan. Lack of intentionality seems to be one of the factors which has retarded the progress at IL. I took about a year or two break from here. We had a similar discussion way back then, and here it is again—the same as when I left. We have to decide whether we are going to make this community better or not.
If there is no real interest in making it better, then I may take another break. I can't afford to get lost in intellectual posing and pissing contests. I want (and feel increasingly "called") to finish writing my second book, Christians Thinking Like Energy. My current level of participation here is obviously not a pace that I can maintain if I have any hopes writing future books.
Yet, if the time for healing is upon us (if we are truly ready for transformation), then here is where I want to devote my time and energies and talent of writing.
Establishing a consistent debriefing process, such as in a specified "healing room" forum, might be one of the community-improvement initiatives that we need to consider. Such debriefing could help us learn from our mistakes. Plus, it would go far to reduce negative energy build-up.
On that note, I recall a discussion from my book which ties morality to morale. Stanely's interest in Integral Ethics may lead us to an emphasis on quality control, especially in the area of group morale. Here is the pertinent excerpt from my book:
from page 185 of Allsville Emerging ( http://sbpra.com/DarrellMoneyhon ):
True morale, gained from “good fit” and “meaningful
engagement” automatically promotes “good character”
and moral/ethical behavior. It’s not that no general social
instruction for “character” or “morality” or “ethics” would
be needed. It’s just that not as much of it would be needed as
is the case in a highly competitive society. ...
from page 315 of Allsville Emerging:
... Whether or not the two words—morale and moral—are
linguistically related (although it would be hard to imagine
no language root connection, when the only spelling difference
between the two words is a single letter, an “e”),
there seems to be a close tie between the two, in terms of
meaning.
In order to maintain moral action, a person needs to “give
a damn.” He or she needs to care about behaving morally, and
about being a moral person of good character (“integrity”).
The goal to be moral is a form of challenge or motivation, the
second core virtue. It requires a positive, going-toward-thelight,
kind of emotional foundation if it is to be sustainable.
Darrell
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No Joke
Posted February 18th, 2012 by Stanley in response to At Ken's Recent Post, I Said This, in Referrence to...I do not see what Jospeh was trying to do as any kind of joke. I addressed this in a post I am about to enter which also included a humble request of you.
--
No cyber-stalking please. http://integrallife.com/member/stanley/blog/cyber-stalking
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Good Cop, Bad Cop
Posted February 18th, 2012 by Darrell Moneyhon in response to No JokeStanely, Perhaps it is good that some can "see red" (by that, I mean see red-level behavior from others) and others, like myself (more in the "new age"y camp you identified. I am a Cultural Creative through and through) who have a hint of hippy "flower-power" which has some transformational power to draw out the "higher angels" of some people who may not be stuck in red, but who may regress to it on occassion.
What we then have with the red seer and the new ager is the classic "Good cop, bad cop" dynamic. You hit 'em. I'll give them a softer place to go.
And here we have it: a basic start on different "gifts," and how these can create the synergy we need to positively transform the IL community. Your gifts (or at least "dispositions") are different than mine. Thank God!
Darrell
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Good
Posted February 18th, 2012 by Stanley in response to Good Cop, Bad CopI'll play
Stan the Bad Cop
And by the way, I hold my "hippy, flower power" brothers and sisters in the highest regard. A recurrent wish of mine is that I could have been of age in San Francisco through the entire decade of the 60's. When they invent a time machine this is where I will visit for sure. Are there such environments today?
--
"May there be peace on Earth"
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Continued
Posted February 21st, 2012 by StanleyIf anyone is interested in this kind of thing some of the themes expressed on this post are continued here; http://integrallife.com/member/stanley/blog/integral-culture-begins-shift
--
"May there be peace on Earth"
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I agree with you Stanley, but...
Posted February 13th, 2012 by kbd2005Isn't there a better way to go about ending the narcissism? I was just thinking about narcissism today. I think this is an apt post.
In other news, I do see the forum taking a different direction. Maybe they're gone or learned their lesson. I think they would have a lot of value by sitting and chatting with you. You seem to have been here from the beginning and truly know what happened/is happening to the forum.
Back in the Integral Naked days, there was a lot of projecting, hostility, cyber-stalking, pure-nastiness. I should know, I was a contributing member. But I just don't know if calling them out is going to work! I wish it would! But there has to be another way.
Best of luck, Stan-the-man,
Kelley