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Message from Moderator: Rule 5
This is a reminder about rule 5 from the Community Guidelines.

5. Before you offer your wisdom to or about others, remember that your perspective is yours, and just one of many.
This rule is especially important for personal topics, when talking about another person's inner experience, their character, their motives, etc.
A way to demonstrate that you are following this rule is to first ask others whether they want your advice. Honour their perspective that they may not want your advice. If they welcome it, but then don't like it, then please leave it at that, don't persist.
If you feel this rule is being broken, feel free to send me a message and/or use the Report Abuse button.
Stefano
Community Moderator
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Posted September 1st, 2011 by stefano in response to [Comment Deleted]When I've been on workshops where personal stuff gets pointed out about people, as part of the exercises, ninety five percent of the time the people take the criticism badly, especially if the feedback had some truth in it. So it isn't about whether the feedback was insightful and true -- the impulse is a desire to help, and it may well have been -- it's about whether it actually helps the person, and ninety five percent of the time, people just get offended and shut down and to defend themselves they then invent reasons why YOU are the one who's actually wrong. If the goal is to help someone, but they shut down, what's been achieved?
I've done my share of pestering people to change, all my family and all my friends, for their own good you understand, and it has never worked; they change when they damned well decide to do it themselves, and not a moment sooner.
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Posted September 1st, 2011 by stefano in response to [Comment Deleted]The point is that it doesn't work.
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Troublemakers!
Posted September 1st, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]I'm aghast! But seriously guys...you've read all the same Integral stuff as I have. You come onto the Integral playground acting out from Red and picking on the other kids...what do you expect Teacher to do but put you in detention. Blue is the correct response to Red...that's the theory anyway. Yes or no?
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Posted September 2nd, 2011 by stefano in response to [Comment Deleted]Oh I've had red try to wind me up most of my life -- I'm talking close family here.
I'll say this about red: it has a sell-by date. Think about it. Evolution had us at red peak when life expectancy was 35. At that physical age power is available and fun. Into 50s 60s 70s, anyone still peaking at red starts to self implode. What's granny gonna do, hit people with her zimmerframe? Curse the nurses and home help so they stop helping her? Wave her stick in a drunken rant at the immigrants, just as she falls over and breaks her hip again?
As Father Dougal would say: Oho! He won't like that!
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Moderation and note to Iain
Posted September 2nd, 2011 by stefano in response to [Comment Deleted]
Josef, I agree in that I question Iain's description of red as the problem. Red comes to mind easily because of reading Spiral Dynamics, but that's not the problem here for moderation purposes.
The problem is that Iain doesn't seem to display any diplomacy.
Lots of people on here can express strong views and rants, so Iain is correct that in that regard, everyone is doing it, as I have done too, but that's not what I'm focussing on as moderator and that's also what the post above about rule 5 is trying to explain; yes give people advice if you so feel the need, but be diplomatic about it.
Diplomacy, it is in the dictionary. Tactful, avoid offending others or hurting their feelings, skill.
As for memes I don't think diplomacy is about green either, if anything it is blue protocol, internet etiquette, basic civility.
Why hurt someone's feelings if the point can be made without hurting their feelings? If on the other hand one feels it is necessary to plug someone in to get the point across, well OK, but there are only so many times one can do that before there's enough complaints that the person is ejected.
Iain, you can still hold strong views and opinions, and when I read your posts I see that you do have a range of things to say. If you can just tone it down then that would end this problem.
If on the other hand you believe that your truths have to be delivered raw without regard for other people's feelings, then we'll eject you with no particular regard for your complaints about it.
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Manners or even basic playground respect
Posted September 2nd, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to Moderation and note to IainYes, Stefano. Iain said straight out that he comes here to argue and wind people up and that he's acting from a red center. Healthy Red would mean expressing himself boldly, unhealthy Red means imposing himself rudely. Also, there's no need to be offended, to rationally debate, or to try to sit in a sharing circle with someone acting out from unhealthy Red. The other 1st tier memes conflict resolution mechanisms are just games for Red to manipulate and play with. If-Then statements are the correct response. "If you do this, then this will happen."
"Ohhhh, it's not fair. This guy got away with this. You did this on this post. Who put you in charge? Is this really Integral to be banning people when we're supposed to be embracing the whole spiral? What right have you got to censor free speech?"
That's all BS in this context.
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Thanks
Posted September 2nd, 2011 by Stanley in response to Manners or even basic playground respectI agree with your opinions but am mostly inspired by your degree of clear seeing. You seem able to see through all the smoke screens. Thanks.
I took a look at your profile. I think that you lying under a tree is an authentic contemplative practice and that you fit in here just fine.
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THOU SHALL NOT WIND PEOPLE UP AT INTEGRAL LIFE
Posted September 2nd, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]
Love the sinner, hate the sin
I've got a lot of respect for your intelligence and the work you've put into your introspection. You seem like a really interesting guy who could help a lot of people. My judgement of you, for what it's worth, is really just that I have to hold you at arm's length because you've got some spikey parts that lash out from time to time, maybe even that your heart is in the spikey part...which, like you said, probably has a lot to do with the shit you've been through. I've got pretty good boundaries so don't feel particularly endangered by you...but there's some fairly sensitive people around here...some of whom are really vulnerable. It's up to the community to establish the boundary in that case in order to create safety and order.
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Thanks
Posted August 31st, 2011 by StanleyI believe that even here, especially here, we need to expect people to behave as at least half way decent human beings. If someone is trying to force their advise on any of us and are not treating us with dignity and respect we have a responsibility to let this person know that their advise and attention are not welcome and will not be tolerated. If they persist I trust that you and other caring persons with Integral Life will handle this decisively. I support you in this completely.
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Hey Iain! Integrate this!
Posted August 31st, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]
Just kidding! If you feel so out of place here, why do you keep coming back?
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No nerve! Really kidding!
Posted August 31st, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]I've found you sometimes a bit exasperating at the insistence with which you bring your conclusions about other peoples interiors. I haven't liked the way you've interacted with a couple of people on here with diagnosed mental illnesses who've specifically asked you to approach them in a different way. Maybe you see yourself as being raw and real and you're not here to make friends with people you see as overly-sensitive hippies and decadent spoiled youth?
The Integral scene is full of intellectual New Agers and spiritually/psychologically desperately seeking college-age kids so if you really can't stand those kinds of people, I don't know what to tell you. The next version of Integral Life is supposed to have a way to make groups so maybe you can find more people like yourself there.
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New Age =\= Green
Posted September 1st, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]This is kind of a side note, but there's a problem I've noticed on this website where it's really hard to find any discussion of healthy green in the various lines. It seems like all we get is talk about the MGM and its expressions as fruity New Agey-ness, political correctness, the Green-Red moral relativism problem, etc. It's to the point where I've questioned whether Green is really even a stage of development. Are there no healthy 4 quadrant exemplars of Green we can point too?
Understanding and teaching Healthy Green thinking/spirituality would be very important in trying to reach someone mired in faulty New Age thinking/spirituality, just as being able to authentically connect with ones Healthy Blue Christianity would be important in relating to a backwards Fundamentalist Christian. People aren't always on the edge of transformation, but could sometimes be open to more healthy translation on their level.
As someone fully aware of your red drives you should know what happens when red gets up in reds face....they FIGHT! How skillful or useful is that?
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Oath Keepers
Posted September 1st, 2011 by Lincoln Merchant in response to [Comment Deleted]We have this group of blue-orange military and police (active duty and veterans) here in the States called the Oath Keepers who are all about refusing to follow orders from the kind mean Green meme politicians you're talking about. Our military and police cultures have maintained a very independent and traditional induction process even as our top military commanders develop very high level cognitive strategies (General Petraeus is a great example). The strength of blue/Orange core and the sophistication at which our officers are trained, including and transcending Green, makes me think that some of what you're describing in Europe won't happen here.
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The elephant in the room
Posted September 2nd, 2011 by Jon SandersWhat this thread fails to recognise and address, which I find deeply disturbing, is the abuse inflicted, not by responses to posts from members other than the original poster, but by the original poster themselves.
Integral life members shoudn't abuse each other, but its ok for them to abuse themselves?
Is it not unethical, and therefore unintegral, of Integral Life to allow members to openly and publically abuse themselves? Are you not culpable?
True some of the recent comments have been very direct; that said my reading of them suggests that they are made with good intentions; at the very least those making the comments have not been 'Guilty Bystanders'.
Jon
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