Debate Analysis

No Such Thing As Evil? (SHOCKING DEBATE) | Dr. John Demartini

Primary speakers:Dr. John DemartiniAubrey Marcus

Dr. John Demartini: Even Jesus wasn't one sided. There's a whole lot of text on there that doesn't show him that one sided state He was neither good nor bad. He was neither. All these things that we label good and bad It have been labeled good or bad depending on who you're taking side with. I have a really hard time with this

Aubrey Marcus: If I went home today and somebody was assaulting my wife, I would forcibly stop Probably because you would probably a hundred percent certainly I wouldn't say maybe this is his belief in this

Dr. John Demartini: You're going to react in that setting exactly proportion to your morality at the time if you see what he's doing as evil You're going to do it. You can stop him but it is evil in your perception It will be Rumi is the same as the jihadists Rumi is in his own way is a jihadist in the sense of promoting his ideal Yes, because they're trying to do what they think is God as agonist and antagonist and you're living and dying at this moment

Aubrey Marcus: You're killing yourself. You're acting as if I said death is bad. It's not I didn't

Dr. John Demartini: Say that neither is good is life good and neither is life good. No life has got benefits and drawbacks Bringing some people in the life is their torture. I don't say anything you can't say thank you for your baggage Anything you say thank you for your fuel. I actually agree with you on that. Thank you

Aubrey Marcus: It's not okay to be the child to a pulp. It's not okay to sexually assault a child There is something actually fundamental inside of us that is on a driving force towards life love freedom The experience to live this beautiful world and if somebody is Intentionally interfering with that we have an obligation to try and prevent or stop it. It's like a fight to you

Dr. John Demartini: It doesn't match your beliefs so you're ready to fight and your hands are shaking I'm not going to pacify my my my research for any human being on this planet Nobody the reality is that there's upsides to that event. There's upsides the murder of children. Yes. There's upsides to it

Aubrey Marcus: I think we're going to have to stop here John

Dr. John Demartini: I

Aubrey Marcus: Came into this podcast with Dr. John D martini expecting to have a conversation about how our thoughts can impact our reality And how we can utilize our belief field to actually draw towards us those things that we're more resonant with But what happened very quickly was something much different we highlighted a bright point of distinction in our worldviews and this turned into a very Intense debate and I think debate is healthy I think when people have two different opinions and they stand by those opinions and still allow themselves To have the discussion something greater emerges now at some point I didn't think that we could even make it through it felt like the chasm was so wide that even having the Conversation itself wasn't going to be fruitful or actually beneficial For the people listening, but as time went on I'm more grateful for this conversation because I think it highlights two different worldviews Is there such a thing as good and evil or is it all the one source without distinction? I believe it's a bit of both and in this conversation You'll see two clearly defined points of view and you'll be able to assess Where do I stand in these two different ideas these two different paradigms of thought and belief and what can I use in my own life To how I want to guide myself through this wild journey through life itself So I hope you guys enjoy this intense and Ultimately beautiful conversation with Dr. John D. Martini If you had one piece of code that you could psychically transmit to every human on the planet What would that code be?

Dr. John Demartini: Beyond the outer appearance There's nothing but love all else's illusion And that the quality of your life's based on the quality of the question you ask And the questions make you conscious of what you've been unconscious of so you can if Asking wise questions become fully conscious of this love What's the first question? Whatever you perceive in the world around you is a reproduction of you So whatever you see there Where do you do it in your own life and how does it serve?

Aubrey Marcus: now This brings up the idea for me that what happens when somebody through their own agency through their own projection their own will their own intent interferes with your own projection of what you're actually experiencing in your life like some Predation of some sort to yourself. Well, no somebody else comes in interferes with you in your life You know, so that seems to be also a factor in the universe, right that there's people who are on the way. It's all on the way

Dr. John Demartini: It's whatever I perceive in others as me So if I perceive somebody that's a predator They're there to make me realize that they're representing a part of me that I have an owned and loved and appreciated and they give me a chance now to go and do that So whatever we perceive in them is just if we're resending them It's because it's reminding us of some part of ourselves that we haven't appreciated that we're somehow feeling guilty or shame about And they're bringing us that ability to go and discover that find out how it's served after all and find out how they're serving us as our teacher not our not our obstacle So the predator is really The prey turned inside out inside our own psyche

Aubrey Marcus: I think this is a I mean, that's a strong mindset to have I think as a working mindset hypothesis that is a super helpful thing to have, but somebody could just All up their fists beyond some drugs and go punch you in the head And is that something that you believe that you attract it into your life or is that just part of Everybody operating from a place of agency any time you're

Dr. John Demartini: Perceiving and somehow impulsively seeking a poll the opposite poll will be there for you There's no separation has or a clientist described the unity of opposites is always present and if you see a poll and you're addicted and Infatuated with one poll the other poll is going to be something you resent and dislike and label If you can see both sides simultaneous and see that there's a unity of opposites You realize that it's there to teach us to not be attracted to one or repelled to the other Bipped up to see the whole at the same time the unity of opposites the synthesis and synchronicity of complementary opposites is what I describe love to be It's part of love too There's the law of risk to escalation shows that whatever we seek and we believe in The equal opposite is always there to balance it in the universe and in the world to make sure we don't get proud about our Perception perceptions and we get humbled by the other to make sure that we keep ourselves authentic

Aubrey Marcus: Is this related to the hermetic principle of rhythm that there's going to be this kind of sine wave that they're simultaneous

Dr. John Demartini: Yeah, they're simultaneous. I've taken probably 150,000 people through a simple question They let's say somebody does a particular act that they perceive to be terrible That they have been indoctrinated by some moral hypocrisy that that's a bad thing And I go, okay, go to that moment. Let's look at where it is when it is what it is who it was from and at that moment How did it serve you and they go well didn't and I go but how did it? Because you're assuming if you're seeing only one side that that's a projection of your your putting a box on that that action but so When they go and they look and they discovered there was it catalyzed a Reflection it catalyzed a humbleness it catalyzed Independency it made them less Disempowered it gave them catalyst of some form I always say any area of your life you're not empowered and you'll be overpowered by somebody to help you become empowered on that area And when they stop and they find the other side that it's subsides as being something terrible and it becomes now something fuel some opportunity to grow from So the challenges in life are necessary to make sure that we have Procotic independence and the over supportive nature that we try to addict ourselves to one side is what keeps us juvenile dependent And so we get caught sometimes in our mega less seeking a one-sided world instead of embracing the two sides that life always offers And if they we see them separate as will him want in 1897 described Sequential contrast and simultaneous contrast Sequential contrast as we see a positive and then later we see the negative like we're in fact Who is somebody and later we discover their downsides or we see somebody we think is terrible and then later we discover wow My life changed at that moment Why wait for the wisdom the ages with the aging process? Why not just ask the right questions and see that it's there now see both sides simultaneously and become poised in present and Purposeful see things on the way. Yeah

Aubrey Marcus: I mean, I fully understand and appreciate and receive the deep wisdom that is being transmitted here But I'm I have a kind of a cautionary feeling that this is a in some ways a Kind to a type of fundamentalism where people believed when there was a calamity that it was their sins that brought upon that calamity like I Didn't please God so God sent the flood or I didn't please

Dr. John Demartini: There's no displeasing or pleasing on this. It's just an event We we make events Pository negative in parts of the world that we in the Middle East Older men and younger girls are married for centuries for at least 1500 years In America that's you go to jail for it So in their culture it's a different culture. So if you have an international or a global view You don't react to either of those poles. You don't see one because of your localization As good and the other bad you see it from a perspective that is now understanding these are pairs of opposites And there's a unique opposites in the world and for every ideologue that promotes one There's an ideologue that promotes the other to count the balance it to keep the body and the the you might say the soul of the world The animal mondai in equilibrium so I don't I don't like to The gate something because of my lack of seeing the whole I'd rather go and dig deeper and find it But I don't label it with them. It's better good. I've just said it's an event now. How do we use it in? Consequentialism nobody knows the consequence of an action We can assume it's positive negative because of our training But if we look over time the central limit theorem shows that the bell curve distribution of positive and negative outcomes will eventually a surface So if we take a narrow short-term view we'll see positive or negative if we take a long-term view We will see that it's just a inevitable growth process of learning I mean sometimes people when they're 50s realize the things that they thought were terrible in their childhood They now go thank you Why wait 30 40 50 years to do it? Why not look now and find it?

Aubrey Marcus: What is the how do you view this in? Light of the idea of moral relativism with whereas if it's culturally appropriate Like we could say like well, you know, there used to be slavery. Why not have slavery now? It's like whatever you think there is but internally, but there is and there's also you know some forced physical slavery still unfortunately in our world but this feels like a violation of Value itself like actually perennial perennial values You know these evolving and changing values like we actually know in our body that certain things Don't feel right certain things are wrong and I feel that there's an imperative to stand when we see something that's wrong

Dr. John Demartini: Well if we study I just wrote a textbook on morality this last year again and The evolution of morality is an evolution of the brain The brains of Miggla has the amygla, which is a sub-cortical nuclei Assigned valency to Events that are stimuli that are evoked from the outside world and we label these are prey or predator good or bad Attraction repulsion impulse instinct and we label those things and they're not But our perceptions and then we go through we we think okay, that's a that's a terrific thing a guy meets a girl And he thinks oh my god. That's that's amazing and then over the next few weeks or months He discovers what that she's got things he didn't see he was blind By that infatuation initially and so the amygla fooled them Because it needs to accelerate its misperceptions and false pauses in order to capture the the prey or it fools them into an escaping a predator But then what happens is the person that you infatuate with eventually you discover some of the downsides and find out Now I know both sides of the person and I start to love this person. I Was infatuated confusing that with love now I'm discovering love for who what it really is and the same thing that same person Can now because it they didn't match the fantasy you can then be angry at him and now they're part of your nightmare And then you did eventually discover there's some benefits in the part that the sides you don't like about the person Eventually realize that those two sides were you're in complete awareness Is and that there's there's a beautiful bouquet of opportunities sitting in both sides the unity of opposite so Morality starts out with the amygla and And eventually through the singulate cortex it goes up in the medial prefrontal cortex where it sees things Objectively and it sees it neutrally and doesn't see it and so for an in Absolute morality, which is the most primitive form of morality It eventually goes into what is called a relativism and a situational ethics, which is more objective and That what that does is allows us to stop and not just immediately react but see things as they are Which has both sides? Because we with our incomplete awareness label things only to find out that that label was our incompleteness and Michael Montaigne traveled all over the world Trying to find a universal and morally ascended a value system only to discover that in time and space and none of them ever were ascended so life and death and all these things that we label good and bad throughout history have been there and have been labeled good or bad Depending on who you're taking side with a jihadist who is believing very strongly in Eliminating anything that's not his belief is doing what he thinks is good in Afghanistan Where somebody in a western world would think he's doing something able and a pictorist says That any human being will not do anything unless they believe there's more advantage and disadvantage in their value system at that time And so they're going to do what they think is good and somebody else may think it's bad But that means that which is true? To the jihadist his belief is his belief and the other person's got a different belief I'm trying to take a perspective that How do we find both sides in these things? Because if not we take a side and the more we take a side the more we create an opi side The side meaning I'm right and you're wrong. You need to stop this. This is dangerous Eventually the more we try to do that the more we create the very thing we're trying to eliminate So we either anything we try to avoid we create running into and keep doing it again. So I'm a more of a Ask in a question. What are the downsides to what they think is up to help them like a dialectic instead of a debate a dialectic What's the downside to the person who's a jihadist so they can become aware and Listen to the person that sees the downside and what is the upside? To the person that sees the diseable so they can both learn how to love and appreciate each other and communicate and have a way of communicating their differences together

Aubrey Marcus: I have a really hard time with this honestly because if I went home today and somebody was Assulting my wife. I'm just driving home How to nice podcast we worked out some differences in our opinion and our you know our ontology of morality and value etc And had a good time and someone was in there assaulting my wife. I would forcibly stop it Probably because you have probably a hundred percent certainly I wouldn't say

Dr. John Demartini: Maybe maybe this is his belief in this my belief you're going to react in that setting Exactly proportion to your morality at the time if you see what he's doing as evil you're going to do it You can stop him but it is evil in your perception it will be But so you don't believe that there is actual evil? No, I don't I don't believe there's actually evil I think what we have is that that's a we've personified that and gives names to it and call it good or Evil or God or devil and things like that, but these are anthropomorphisms The reality is that there's an event there I'm not negating that the person is doing something that challenges you he may be taking your wife's life or trying to If you value your wife, you'll try to save her life That's perfectly understandable and that would be good in your perspective If you valued him and somebody was supporting him and he thought that she had done something that challenged him They may see it at completely different I'm not one to take a side on that. I'm one to say I'm going to look at what I'm going to do in that moment and in that moment I might find out that I would be favorable on your wife's side for sure Probably so and I would probably do what I can to stop But then you're going to be in situational ethics again. You're now going to go okay I've may have saved her life But I've just killed somebody So I'm now taking to I'm doing a situational moral system there If I murdered the person out of self-defense, that's considered good in some countries Another places you've now got out you've just killed somebody Over here you just saved somebody's life. You're a hero in a villain at the same moment So you have to decide which one is your belief if you have a belief that that one's good By saving her and this one's bad by killing him But saving it because it's defense then that's the situational ethics that you put yourself in I'm not going to make it good or bad. I don't know exactly what that's going to be in that setting I know that hypotheticals. It's easy to come up with hypotheticals But the probability of your wife having an attacker Is less likely if unless she's somehow trying to live in anxiety and over protection and putting herself in a position where that might happen I would rather her, you know, not be in a position where that happened Rather do what I can to to keep that from happening

Aubrey Marcus: So there is there was a a person who was on a train Christopher Katon There was an attacker with the knife and he was going around looking to stab as many people as he could with the knife Christopher Katon Act, I believe that's his I believe that's it the correct name there. He acted In a way that actually Saved many lives from this kind of deranged knife wielding attacker on the train So Did he to deliver did he survive he survived, but he saved a lot of lives. Yeah, okay. Yeah, he's right So in that instance, would you say that actually based on your worldview that he should have just let the guy continue to

Dr. John Demartini: There's no imperatives here He's going to react see to try to live by a should as usually futile The injected values of outer authorities are not something you can control what you can control is your perception If you're in a situation and you perceive something is really really really terrible at the time You're going to react within a regular response and try to If it's attacking you you'll try to defend yourself with a fight or flight or freeze response If you think it's something that's going to save some else's life and you think that's good. You're going to react that way Your values at that moment are going to make you react according to what it is The hypothetical about how and what you should do it may not have anything to do with what they're going to do at that moment because The injected values how we ought to be and the actual values of how we function are not always the same so I don't know hypotheticals are usually Just hypothetical you can debate all day long. This is a real this was a real situation. But if it's a real case What he did in that setting based on his perceptions at that moment and what his values were he responded That's all we can do Some people will watch that him avoid and run and hide others will go and attack If they thought that they could achieve something that was meaningful in their value system They'll possibly attack the attacker Another person would hide and scream and hide and try to protect themselves Which one is good you tell me So if you if you feel you could actually like the They when they had the shooting in in Bandai beach There's a guy that went and attacked That the guy that was shooting Well, he had some special forces training or something. He had some knowledge and things and he didn't feel That that was overwhelming to try that But most people running hiding under cars and doing whatever they could so To say that one's good and the other one's bad or whatever is I don't I don't think that's that doesn't make sense to me What does make sense is that value system of that individual at that moment with those perceptions are going to determine how they're going to react And each of those reactions Are going to be appropriate to them in that perception. I can't I can't make that one wrong for for coward and running under The car. I can't make that just good because he went to do it because he could have killed himself and been a foolish actor The we don't know in what those consequences are All I know is it The person did he went out of his way and he thought he could tack the guy and he did But he didn't get him to stop shooting he kept shooting afterwards But he still tried his best to stop him So in his case he thought that was a wisest another person's case running under cars His wisest thing because he may be thinking or she may be thinking I got three kids at home If I go over there and I do that and I get killed my kids are Are going to be left without food and clothing and shelter So they're going to have to sit on to make a situational ethics at that moment To I go in I save my kids and have a higher value on my kids and save my life for the sake of my family My wife just died. I have nothing to lose I'm going to go ahead and tack that guy I don't know until I go and look at all the different parameters the situation To put that together to put some sort of assessment on that and I'm not going to make them as good a bad I'm just going to say the human beings are going to respond Based on their values at that moment to that situation based on what their experience is it

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Dr. John Demartini: Don't know because What is child abuse that's the thing and we would call child abuse here in America having sex with the five year old Well, um I've seen brothers and sisters have incest in a bathtub and having sex with each other playing around an adult having sex Well, that's not my preference That's not something that I have experienced in my life But I don't know what's going on. I have after working with about 1300 cases of pedophilia that I've gotten to work with Both sides of the equation. I find out that many times the people that are the pedophiles Uh, were either slammed and punished for masturbation or punished in a very young A dealing with sexuality and that little boy or little girl that's in that age is still inside that adult And that little boy is now being attracted to the little girl at the same age. I'll give you a real case I worked with a gentleman who was from Japan who'd been eight years in prison for pedophilia a psychologist over there asked me to work with him Um, they were in the room with him and His mother caught him masturbating when he was eight and a half years old Um, she beat him nearly to a pulp

Aubrey Marcus: Um, but that's but that's okay because that was just her value system right

Dr. John Demartini: Well, she had a husband that had a high sex drive and was looking at porn and she when he's when she saw her son begin to do that She lost it the anger she had to her husband got taken out on the child And the husband was more assertive and more powerful and so she couldn't take out her anger on him So she took it out on the child so that's okay

Aubrey Marcus: I'm not making it. I'm just trying to get the okay. It's just fundamentally not it's not okay to be the child to a pulp It's not okay to sexually assault a child It's not okay to murder people want to know there is something actually fundamental inside of us that is actually on a Driving force towards life love freedom the experience to live this beautiful world and if somebody is Intentionally interfering with that we have an obligation an ought we have an obligation to try and prevent or stop

Dr. John Demartini: well All I know is that the the gentleman grew up I had to continue my my point that I'm making Um at eight and a half years old All the girls that he targeted for pedifilia were eight and a half Even though he went up to 33 years old now Some of the girls were meeting him in a dressing room at a mall And having multiple sex with him These are eight and a half year old girls having sex multiple times with him So I'm not interested in the morality here. I'm interested in the why do people do what they do What is it that drives these behaviors? Because if you just make a black and white and you don't look deeper You assume that that's bad and good you never get to understand why that's happened

Aubrey Marcus: I don't assume and I actually know it. I actually know it in my body like I think well I think this is actually a common sense sacred axiom with if you see somebody abusing somebody innocently That's wrong Well You can that's that's a perspective. That's not a perspective That's not it for that to for that to be a perspective then why do we even have laws? Why do we even why do we feel why does why does like you could take all kinds of different individuals And you could expose them to this image and they'd be like horrified by this right because it's the lives and throw ontologically It lives in our body. We actually have value built in let me let me let me add something here

Dr. John Demartini: I've had the opportunity to work with thousands of people that have been through these traumas and these terrible things And as long as you have that idea that it's all bad or it's all good and it's black and white they're trapped the rest of their life Because now they're a victim of that I'm I'm teaching people how to be a master to destiny not stay victims of history When I show them how to find the blessings out of it and the upsides to that and be able to see the things They're let free The guy right now is out of jail He's not a pedophile anymore. We've dissolved the issue He hasn't had any issues because we found out what the real reason was and we changed his life We also helped him appreciate what his mother was doing because he had an overprotective person in the family whenever you have overprotective people in the family You get perpetrator that's aggressive When he starts to when you understand the psychology that's driving both of these poles You take out the morality on this and you start understanding why do people do what they do For just label it bad or good is not going to get you anywhere except keeping them victims But if they go in and find out how it comes out on the other side They can sit down and get home with their life and look back at that and say thank you I would say anything you can't say thank you for your baggage anything you say thank you for your fuel I actually agree with you on that so then personal basis then that would be when we're gonna basically say Well, you know, it's like the the Odyssey, you know, how do we explain the So-called evil in relationship to God Maybe it's a human invention maybe we made that as evil because we haven't seen the blessing something Maybe we made something good because we haven't seen the downsides I'm more in that perspective because I've worked with thousands of people who think they've had terrible events Helped him see the other side of it Actually go to the people and be grateful for those individuals Yeah, but if you open your heart and have that tier of gratitude for what's happened in their life and used it to do something amazing with their life

Aubrey Marcus: Well, what happens when that ends up in a fatality someone Someone murders a child like like they don't have the opportunity to be great They don't have you haven't gotten to work with the murdered child. I have not the murder child But the family that's what I'm talking about like the murdered child doesn't have a chance to be grateful for the murder

Dr. John Demartini: I don't know what's going on in the psychology of the murder child I just because I didn't get to work with a little murder child But I do know I get to work with the family and I get to watch with the dynamics and the family and how it shifts And watch the Upsides to that event because you say it's just an evil event and there's no benefits to it is very narrowed The reality is that there's upsides to that event. I worked for the lady after the the big there's upsides the murder of children

Aubrey Marcus: Yes, there's upsides to it. I think I think we're gonna have to stop here John. Well

Dr. John Demartini: You're too black and white. I guess for me to be able to share. I mean I look I I can I share my story you can turn it off. I don't care. I'm not here attached to it Yeah, I'm just gonna tell you that I went to the thing with the timmiethic bay thing that was blown up in there And I met with a family that had the little girl the little blonde girl that was killed in the bombing I do you remember that? Mm-hmm. Okay. I met with the family. I talked to the whole family She said and this is her quote one of the greatest things ever happened in my life at that bombing That's what she said. This is the mother who lost the child and there's a picture of the restaurant with a girl there with the blonde blonde girl there She now has two children one that looks almost identical She has a new relationship with a new man. She's her business is booming her life is unfolded She's now contributing the daughter is contributing in a way from the story and she looked at it and she says If that hadn't happened, I would not be where I am today would not have I was with a alcoholic husband that was beating me in my daughter My my life was on skid row almost and that event changed my life and it blessed me with a new husband new children new things like that So I just go Okay, she has this perspective that this has been a great turning point in her life We don't want to rob people of that. We don't want to rob people Yeah, but he's the but the little blonde girl was robbed of her life Well, I I don't know what was going on in this I kill that because I'm gonna shoot I'm gonna share a story and another story then There's a lady named Peterson, which is actually the family comes from Austin her Well, I can't reveal too much of it, but her Family all have doctors is there everybody in the family has to be a doctor family. There's doctor three generations of doctors so the pressure on the family had to be doctors in the process of doing that uh, and they all had to be males So they had a daughter and they didn't want a daughter. They wanted all males the mother had this fantasy that I have to have males and I don't want a daughter so the daughter Was rejected by the family by the mother particularly The daughter decided to try to be Homosexual and play out the male role to try to be part of the family She ends up going and becoming the doctor to try to be part of the family No matter what the mother would rejected her rejected her rejected her She ends up going it and even having an affair with the same man that her Mother dated prior to getting married And having a boy a baby boy with that person To try to bring a male into the family to be part of the family. She tried everything Her mother told her you don't exist. You're no longer in our family Please leave us Well that night she called a friend of mine and she was suicidal She was thinking about taking her life So she calls and that lady calls me try to reach Connie do whatever you can to reach her I think she's she's gonna make commit suicide No matter what I did no answer no answer no answer no answer the following morning she's in uh Colleen Texas I believe and Colleen Texas. She's in a little denny's for breakfast in the morning And there's some gang members near that and a drive-by gang member shooting shoots in and she's the one killed in the in the shooting Now you could say well that's that's just a random event Maybe or maybe not maybe she was ready to just go and maybe that's part of the Liberation what happened is the baby boy that she had got sent to the mother and the mother raised the boy And she got what she wanted she wanted to leave she never got to be a part of the family I don't know if if we want to play God and act like we know what's right and wrong Well, that's pretty that's anthropomorphic and very human. We're not playing God We are participating in God and and if it's God where's God not it's in everything. It's in everything That's what Einstein was trying to say and and even moshay uh Memonides of the Jewish tradition had the idea that there's there's we go through and we lock things into black and white And there may not be that we may not see the purpose of why things are happening originally And we if we stop and narrow it down because of our own experiences and our own local belief system We can just narrow it. I mean divinity is not local to a particular culture or particular time in a particular space It's omnipresent and it includes everything and to try to say it's not inclusive here because it doesn't match our belief Is very very narrow-minded for a human being to do It's wiser to go in open hearts to see a bigger picture and find the order and things a Heraclitus who influenced massive numbers of philosophers and thinkers and religious people Christiani Judaism and Muslims the three big ones His idea was there was a hidden order and a apparent reason and and even phylo who was studying Christianian and Called Jesus the the the logos take from Heraclitus and Heraclitus said to inside the apparent chaos There's a hidden order we choose not to see it our job is to discover it when we do we're graced and we're no longer Fighting with the universe with our idea what's going to happen is if there's a one-sided world out there

Aubrey Marcus: There isn't a one side I think that it's both our obligation to discover it and also Participate in it. That's the difference. So like I went to I went to when I was 15 I went to a dungeon of the Inquisition and I saw all of these torture devices It was horrific these torture devices. I would say 80% of them had to do with torturing genitals So I don't know numbers are somewhere in the many millions of different people who were tortured for years with the most

Dr. John Demartini: Horrifics the motive what was a motive for them to torture

Aubrey Marcus: That doesn't matter torturing an individual torturing an individual is actually Fundamentally wrong like taking someone's genitals and putting spikes through them or Stretching them until they until they all their bones break repeatedly slowly over time There is no justification for that. It's unjustified. Can I give a justification for it?

Dr. John Demartini: You can but I won't believe it. Well, you may not believe it that that's maybe that the limit on your beliefs I mean, let me just give you a believe If somebody actually happened if you saw somebody would be vomit if you saw snow I wouldn't vomit if you saw somebody About to blow up with a nuclear bomb. I mean you situation lathies because it's a typological like you did You take a hypothetical. I went to the dungeon. This actually happens. Okay, but you gave me an earlier one that was hypothetical

Aubrey Marcus: So let's let's okay. Let's let's go to and then I quickly moved on to actual real-world examples like this

Dr. John Demartini: Let's take somebody. It's about to do a nuclear Bombing yeah, okay, and you've just now captured people who know all about it And the only way to get information out of miss torture

Aubrey Marcus: That is now a hypothetical example because that's not what was happening if it just happens in the English happens in Cuba

Dr. John Demartini: This happens in America every single day People use torture in order to extract information to save lives That's not what the institutional ethics, but may not But what you didn't answer the question. What is the what were the reasons why they were torturing them? Were they believing something different? Were they rigid and about their beliefs? Were they stuck and they were making people evil?

Aubrey Marcus: Why were they torturing them? So what I what I would respond is is that there's a field of value There's actually a field of value and sometimes if you make one value absolute like thou shalt not kill I don't agree with that. I believe that there is a time. The largest current history is the Old Testament God

Dr. John Demartini: 24,970 deaths in the first in the Old Testament. Yeah, and and my without

Aubrey Marcus: And father and father and father and father sure it is of course and father shana learn is book setting God free puts god on trial for crimes against humanity That and then ultimately comes the conclusion that that was a projection of our own idea So I'm not trying to all these projections of human limitations That's where we have a fundamental disagreement that I believe that there is fundamental value and there is fundamental right and wrong

Dr. John Demartini: You can you have two different views you got the relativist and absolutist the absolutist really narrows their mind and so that's good And that's bad and that's it and don't bug me don't try to change my opinion the relativist says But what about this situation and what about this situation? No, there's a middle path though

Aubrey Marcus: There's a middle path. There's a relativist. No, it's not there's no, it's not it's then it's that there's

Dr. John Demartini: There is situation does play a part Aristotle's golden mean and the golden virtue was the middle path The Buddhist middle path equanimity was the middle path of Christianity That is the middle path. It's the synthesis of opposites and the synthesis of opposites life and death Build and destroy your body right now has mytosis and apoptosis. It has oxidation and reduction That has dehydrogenous hydrogen has pairs of opposites as agonist and antagonist and you're living and dying at this moment Every single day you're living and dying Part of you's dying right this minute You're killing yourself with pre-programmed genetic codes to make sure you die And your cells are dying and remodeling and reestablishing with neuroplasticity bioplasticity my myoplasticity

Aubrey Marcus: You're killing yourself. You're acting as if I said death is bad. It's not I didn't say that neither is good is life good

Dr. John Demartini: There's neither is life good. No life has got benefits and drawbacks bringing some people in the life as their torture You have a mother when a mother bears a child she has two sides one that's publicly acceptable and the other one That's not one she goes oh my god my baby's born. I'm so excited. I'm so happy. I got my baby thing There's another part going oh my god. What am I get myself into what's gonna happen to my physical body? What's gonna happen to my career? What's gonna happen is this guy gonna leave me There is torture and ecstasy in that moment and the same when somebody dies Grandma died. Oh, I'm so sorry Finally because she's been tortured and she's dragging out and she's taken in she's burdening herself and burning others Other people are somewhere relieved. She's finally going There's both sides to it And if we take one side and maybe one life is good and death is bad. That's very narrow Very narrow Very unaware that your body has got built and destroyed in society. I didn't say no

Aubrey Marcus: I didn't say death is bad. I just said I just said life in general is good if there is if there was somebody about to push a button That would detonate all the nuclear bombs in the whole world and the earth was going to cease to have life

Dr. John Demartini: Well, I don't think to even if you launched them all it would still have life

Aubrey Marcus: Okay, so let's come up with another example here Because you're using hypotheticals. I'm gonna use hypothetical. This is why I think life is good I think God actually desires for there to be an ever-deepening complexity of my God's thoughts

Dr. John Demartini: You just made that that's that's a bit of a self-righteous projection onto the God you know God's well

Aubrey Marcus: Why is there life then you?

Dr. John Demartini: When somebody says they know God's will Baz Lerman in the book and there's a movie that's come out called oh my God. I was in and Baz Lerman said anybody that

Aubrey Marcus: Look God is always God's will is God is always a mystery However, if you look at what has happened life has been Increasing in complexity and increasing increasing in diversity expense of extinction

Dr. John Demartini: That's what extinction origination always balance an evolution you can see that very easily

Aubrey Marcus: There's you don't you don't ever have evolution without extinctions well then evolution which leads to more life is good So if you're gonna snap out all the life in the universe

Dr. John Demartini: Your body has from the zygote all the way to the fully differentiated individual You have mitosis and apoptosis in perfect balance And evolution has been always extinction in order birth newer species They have to have extinctions as part of it and adaptations So to say that life is good and that death is bad or Moving forward towards a great life is bad I think death is a part of life but life itself But life is also taking other resources out of the out of the world and And residing choose to not kill yourself

Aubrey Marcus: We do it every day. I kill parts of myself every day. No, but you're still alive fundamentally. I

Dr. John Demartini: Parts of yourself. Yes, as a regenerating cycle of the soul wants to survive and it wants It wants to live over dying because life is beautiful

Aubrey Marcus: Because the world is beautiful because we get to love people We get to dance so it's dead we get to hug we get to kiss and we chose to be in this life And if someone tries to take that life, there's no songs without death. There's no poetry. There's no death What do you mean? There's so many love songs? That's not about death. It's just about the experience of radical

Dr. John Demartini: Aluseness that she the most wants to both hug and slug you They always have both sides. Yeah. No, I don't I don't agree I love people. I have no desire to I've got 150,000 people I bash that question to and I assure you that there's times when they like the person times when they don't Sometimes hug sometimes lugs sometimes embrace sometimes want to push away. That's the nature of us Will love is a synthesis of obviously it's not one-sidedness. That's a very very amygdala very Neuphitic industry understanding about what love should there be no law We're going everybody's going to have a different level of awareness at the very bottom as as Colberg said in his moral development the very bottom of the moral development There's right and wrong and black and white and reward and punishment heaven and hell and all that stuff As you go up it becomes more abstract and you understand situation ethics until you finally understand universal laws When universal laws are there you realize that these are synthesis of opposites And that's what the purpose of the dialectic was used from Zeno It was there to teach people to honor both sides of life So at first you're going to make avoid that seek that but as the Buddha said very beautifully the desire for that Which is unobtainable and the desire to avoid that which is unavoidable is the source of human suffering People are suffering trying to get rid of half of their life If you look and you did a drone or viewing of you or me or any human being for three months at a time in video Recorded him 24 hours a day You wouldn't see a hero without a villain. You wouldn't see a saint without a sinner You wouldn't see a pause without a negative You wouldn't see a like without a dislike Nature has a balance of opposites and wisdom is the embracing of the two sides of life not the fantasy of one sidedness Now I've I've been studying this 53 years and I'm certain that there's two sides of life You have two sides if I video recorded you 24 hours a day You know you're probably never going to put me on your show If I videotape you and I got your wife and your family into your kids and put to you and really videotape you you be heroine villain And you have to face and you know that

Aubrey Marcus: Yeah, I because I know human beings. They have both sides, but so you can know me

Dr. John Demartini: I don't know you. I just know human beings know all human beings No, I know that human nature has a set of values there's and they're going to have their value supported and challenged throughout their day in life For sure, and they're going to react nice and mean and kind and cruel and you If you tried to deny that in yourself, well, then you're in denial because that's that's the nature

Aubrey Marcus: Everybody is capable of the greatest of both. I agree with you. I already are capable of it

Dr. John Demartini: But it doesn't mean I get rid of myself if if you want to love yourself You're never going to love yourself trying to get rid of half of yourself You are not going to love yourself. Look, I agree with you actually here You have both sides You're not used to having this on your show probably, but you're going to have both sides And you're a loved one and your wife and your kids are going to have both sides and no matter what you try to do They're going to have both. No, they're not going to have them equally though

Aubrey Marcus: Well, they're not going to have me choose to see my mother my mother You may not choose to see both sides know that you may choose to not choose to express both sides

Dr. John Demartini: That's what a hero does that's not I will but nature forces you into a situation where it comes to the surface repressions eventually express repression

Aubrey Marcus: No, it's my desire. It's not it's not a desire is your amygdala and your amygdala It's deeper than that. It's not you can't it's not your

Dr. John Demartini: Materialist no, it's not desire is universal. I'm a neurologist. No, the the amygdala is a source of desire Look it up and your executive center tries to govern it to moderate it But you're going all your desires to try to be one-sided our futile. They're in non-sustainable futilities They're not going to happen one-sidedness. You may lie to yourself about I'm only a good person I'm more good than bad But you got to look at different people with different perspectives If somebody comes up to me and has a similar value set to me They're going to see me as determined and perseverant and and forthright and another person is going to see me with a different set of values You're going to see me pig headed rigid and stuck They're both right in their perspectives and it's all me You have both You may choose to avoid certain people that will point out those sides You may choose to not want to hear your wife when she's upset with you pointing out those sides You may not want to hear your perceptions from your kids when they are talking to their friends You may want to live in a moral hypocrisy about one-sidedness and try to be a superior being

Aubrey Marcus: But you're going to be humbled when you do that. No, there's there's a choice. We have agency Yes, I agree that there's a choice. You know where they come from

Dr. John Demartini: They come from the experiences that you've accumulated throughout pre-gestational

Aubrey Marcus: I don't agree with that. So I don't agree that I don't agree that everything is determined I agree that actually I I believe that we have agency and then we have a choice and we have a choice whether to express our darker inclinations We did or a choice to express a car

Dr. John Demartini: It's going to trigger the buttons that we're going to respond to because you're assuming that you can override your impulses Yes, yes, and you can override your impulses. I've wanted to hit somebody and not done it You've repressed it inside yourself and then attacked your customers right here in front of me I'm basically talking you well You're basically taking information that goes against what you say and you're saying I'm because I'm refused to put it on my show because of it That's what you just said right here. Can you face that? You because it's a it's like a fight to you. It doesn't match your beliefs So you're ready to fight you're ready to fight and so you're the one that's you're the one that's far more

Aubrey Marcus: I'm having far more emotional This is fun and you're the one is accusing me of attacking you which I'm not

Dr. John Demartini: I'm just putting it forward my idea. Your hands are shaking. No, it's a time calm when you say that you're going to not go any Further on a podcast because of what I'm saying because fundamentally it challenges you and you're going to know

Aubrey Marcus: Because it's putting out information that I think is detrimental to the world

Dr. John Demartini: I know and that's that you have a Paragraph to do that you're free to do it your podcast But can be you can throw this tape right out But the reality is you can lie to yourself about that you don't have both sides

Aubrey Marcus: And you can try to confess that I didn't have both sides john you're putting words in my mouth multiple different times

Dr. John Demartini: But you're saying you have your your your agency is not completely under control Know him and being has complete control over their agency. That's the fantasy that people have They're going to react, you know I know because you've already stated if I saw this that's a terrible thing

Aubrey Marcus: Are you already reacted by labeling it terrible? Yes, if I saw somebody if I saw somebody beating a child to a pulp

Dr. John Demartini: I would react yes, yeah, I would but I know you and would you walk away? I know a gentleman right now who's in Australia and Brisbane, Australia who is beaten as a child And right now he's one of the biggest

Aubrey Marcus: Educators in does that not mean I shouldn't stop what was happening?

Dr. John Demartini: You are going to if you if you have a perception that I'm saying you're going to try to protect the child

Aubrey Marcus: But I but should I not you're saying that there's no I'm not putting moral

Dr. John Demartini: It sheds on there that's some authority that you've given power to that's outside you I'm looking at that situation at that moment and taking that and based on my experiences and based my values I'm going to respond. I may try to protect the child. I may try to run. I may tell this child to run I may throw a stone. I don't know what I'm going to do. It's all hypothetical until I'm in that situation And to say it what I would do is kind of hypothetical until I do it

Aubrey Marcus: Well, no, it's actually called pre-meditation. It's what every different every difference still it can be different Sam, I don't know you you go through these hypothetical scenarios so that you know how you will act according to your own Value system that you believe is the Nature

Dr. John Demartini: Force you to the edge of your awareness every time You will automatically attract the more you try to protect yourself from certain people the more you attract the predator I guarantee you so everybody who's been Attracted it into their life any time you're addicted to ask for this question everybody who's been

Aubrey Marcus: Attracted out in a lot of cases of pedophilia 13k and the children attracted the the pedophile. I didn't say attracted you did

Dr. John Demartini: No, you said you attracted into their life. I said that they will automatically have in their life the counterbalancing Perception so if they're addicted to one side the opposite comes in okay, and let's go answer that question then the

Aubrey Marcus: The child And the and the person who's been did they attract that into their life? Okay, you really want to go there

Dr. John Demartini: Let's go all right when you take if you start with it's too broad you got to break down the to its components First thing you find is something like threat Then you might find violence then you might find Deceit you break it down. There's 18 most common things that I've seen in cases 18 Now if I asked you have you ever threatened somebody if you're honest you said yes You've probably threatened somebody in your life by said you ever tried to force somebody to do something they didn't want to do If you're honest with yourself you probably have done that maybe your kids when they they wanted to play and you said no do your homework If you go and and you take a look at where you've deceived somebody well You've deceived yourself in some cases and probably other people if you break into its little components and identify all the components And don't take the big generalization and label You have done the same thing So the first thing I do with people that have been just I go in and help them find out what are the components? Where do they have done them in their life that calms down some of the judgment on it in the first place So instead of being a victim they're now looking at it with a little bit more rationality Then I go in there. Let's take each one What was the gain and the benefit that came out of that moment? And I did that in front of 600 people for a lady that was stabbed 18 times and left on a street with a A chain to a piece of cement to be run over by trucks In about an hour and a half she was in a state of gratitude She shifted her perspective She actually closed rise and saw the individual that did it She was freed from the anger and resentment She lost 45 to 50 pounds of weight. She changed her hair. She was now able to date people again She started her own radio show in Washington, D.C Her life changed because I asked questions that she never got asked because she was trapped And that was evil and I'm now trapped for the rest of my life in that thing I made her look at where she did everything that he had done in her own form She in her own metaphorically even stabbed people in the back that were close friends in her perspective She found out what was the upsides to it and helped her get out of a Relationship she didn't want to be in it helped her get out of a city She didn't want to live in there's a whole lot of things that came out of it that she was very blessed by When she got through She actually closed rise saw the individual that it experienced this from she had tears arise. She said thank you And that's something that most people don't comprehend and most people are real caught in their little moral trips And they're basically victims of history their whole life Instead of looking at a possibility that there may be an alternative way of looking at life

Aubrey Marcus: So I think that what you went through with her was a very beautiful thing

Dr. John Demartini: Well, I've done that on 1300 I don't I don't deny that and that's why you won't convince me that you can't find blessings in it I'm not trying to convince you that But so then it is not evil until you choose to make it stay stay evil

Aubrey Marcus: It's just an event the last of the great human freedoms is the ability to choose our attitude towards any given circumstance

Dr. John Demartini: Weam James state that yeah, the victor frankle victor frankle and logotherapy. Yep

Aubrey Marcus: So fundamentally like we whatever happens to us we can choose to make that a blessing

Dr. John Demartini: I agree with you. So then why are we going to label it good or bad then then why not just see both sides

Aubrey Marcus: Because why not see both sides after what we do after it happens is different than actually Doing something to prevent that from happening But if you're if you're saying that she are you saying that this person who is stabbed in That she attracted it into her life because of

Dr. John Demartini: Because she had stabbed people in the back prove or disprove that that's none none of that just pertinent That's that's a that's like trying to get a why that happened. I don't know that all I know is what we've got She was She was stabbed all we have is when it's presented to me. That's all I got now She's sitting there in a suicidal mode. She's taking drugs. She's gained weight She's protecting herself from relationship. She can't keep a job down She's doing alcohol and drugs. That's what I'm presented with When she finished she was in a state of grace. She saw a hidden order to it. She was very thankful She moved forward. She ended up writing a book. She went on her made her own radio show. She ended up losing weight Cleaning up her looks. I mean she looked complete different And who's with man now? So is that a terrible event or was that an event that she perceived as terrible and for 13 or 14 years no 18 years she was in misery over it and then in an hour and a half She changed it and turned on and did something amazing to life So is that event the cause of all this pain and suffering or is it a perception of that event and how she decided to see it That's where we have agency That's agency the ability to Transform the perception and allow whatever's out there to be used for something amazing Instead of sitting there and labeling it good or bad in the front

Aubrey Marcus: So if you saw that person stabbing her 18 times tying her to the Cinder block ready to get run over you would say ah this might be a blessing

Dr. John Demartini: I don't know yet. I can't label it good and evil. I don't know yet So there's no I know is that I look if I go and if I go and say that that I don't know what's in that guy's mind I don't know how he's been raised. I don't know what he's been through. I don't know how he's perceiving I don't know what his values are I don't know those things So to if if we were in his Mockisons and we were walking his path we might have the same behavior. We don't know. I don't know that If you know I've seen people that have that have grown up where they have They're beaten by their dad and they're like that and they grew up thinking You know, I would I just want to stay away from all violence And then they end up marrying Three women in a row that are violent like their dads to try to learn the lesson that they're trying to separate one side from the other And so they go from one pole to the other as a dissociation and a kind of a Freeze response and create a fantasy land out there and they get addicted to the fantasy land instead of honoring the order of what's there I'm just a guy that's basically stopping because if I see black and white and I see good and evil and I start there I can't help them I am stuck with them. I'm right there My compassion is one wounded person buying into the wounds of another person and staying stuck with them When a sympathy which keeps them juvenile dependent not grow and they say stuck I've seen it in women's battered shelter places that I've gone and spoken in they stay there and the Governments funding the darn thing and it's keeping that as a business and those people are just staying stuck I go in there and I help them see the other side They're set free. They go out and get jobs. They go out there and value themselves again

Aubrey Marcus: I'm not a victim mindset apologist. I don't believe that we should

Dr. John Demartini: So why are we gonna give it a title called a victim? Why are we gonna label it as an evil and a thing? Why not just label it as an event and event

Aubrey Marcus: Yeah, and certain and certain events certain events should be stopped

Dr. John Demartini: Well, you believe you know that I do know that well, okay, then you're

Aubrey Marcus: On that well, somebody I don't know if you're torturing another individual no matter how much you try to stop that

Dr. John Demartini: You have not stopped it no one has

Aubrey Marcus: Don't stop sitting you can stop it locally if it's happening like Christopher Katan in that train He stopped multiple people from being stabbed to death. Yes

Dr. John Demartini: He's a hero look there are there are policemen out there trying to stop that every single day

Aubrey Marcus: And there's and if there weren't there would be more crazy shit happening probably but but the

Dr. John Demartini: As you have one the hero you also have the villain And then you get rid of one villain you now give an opportunity for other villains to come in You don't get rid of those two sides of nature Whatever collective society represses selective society expresses that's been demonstrated by Nietzsche and many philosophers and Machiavelli and Castiglione So whatever we condemn in society and try to repress it doesn't go away It concentrates in another place in an individual now the question is is this repression in this group over here Causing that person to be the one that's outletting it if so pointing our finger at them is really very shallow Let me let me explain something in a family time you are you have a brother or sister? Yes, several okay Well, there's somewhere in your family. There's playing out the opposite pull of you There's somebody out there in the family done because family dynamics the summation of all family done It's cancel each other in value systems So whatever you think is good. There's somebody's gonna play the opposite to you The more you're morally right the more you're just gonna be this is gonna be situational or the more you're Directed and clear an agency the more they just go with the flow. There'll be pairs of opposite that family And you're smiling because you know there's truth. No, it's bullshit

Aubrey Marcus: That's not true like I know so many families where that's just not true. Well, okay I mean like you can't say that at and every single family you're gonna have the two opposite poles express

Dr. John Demartini: That's crazy in the family knowing every single family in genetic expression the family dynamic has pairs of opposites

Aubrey Marcus: I don't know my wife and my wife has one sister They're both lovely sweet. I know them deeply, but they're both lovely to somebody

Dr. John Demartini: No, they're actually objectively lovely. Okay, but in a family dynamic. You're not giving me the whole family You're giving me the two sisters

Aubrey Marcus: Okay, so okay, okay, so then you're saying like the whole family in the broader

Dr. John Demartini: Summation the summation of the whole family our complementary opposites that equal love And so that mechanism is not just in a micro world in the sense of a family It's global so every single thing out there that somebody believes in and has a value on there Some of the options that set of values is a complete speculative but it has to it has to equal out in a single family Well across the planet. This has been shown by Michael

Aubrey Marcus: Maybe maybe across maybe across the cut across the cosmos I actually believe in this But to imagine that the cosmos has to be reflected in a single family Why can't one one whole family be because you on one pole and one other whole family be the opposite pole And then they'll make each other and they'll marry each other no, they won't

Dr. John Demartini: They won't they don't I assure you there's a law of similars and differences the law of similars and differences when you infatuate with somebody You see more similarities and differences when you resent somebody you see more differences similarities So you're attracted to the similarities because of that so you're attracted to it But you attract the opposite because the person has both sides So you're going to get both sides the the nice the mean the kind the cruel the positive negative the peace and war So to say that there's not a pair of opposites and families is just not seeing the obvious because it is It may not be in the two sisters They may have the brother that's playing the opposite or a father that's playing the opposite But there's a pair of opposites in that family The same thing occurs on social structure That's why you have a balance of peace and war and the global peace index People think they're going to go out and create world peace. It's a complete delusion in fantasy peace and war has been on the balance In a state balance and every year they documented 99.7% of the population in the world is being monitored By 23 parameters in every country showing that these things maintain balance If you look at the borders of European borders for the last 1,000 years there hasn't been one year that hasn't had war going on in that in those countries

Aubrey Marcus: So peace and war is I don't I don't think that's accurate actually. I think if we look this up I think if we look this up right now

Dr. John Demartini: Global peace index look it up. Okay

Aubrey Marcus: historically Begging Has there been there's peace and war more or less

Dr. John Demartini: War as time well no hold on meant if you ask different people they're going to take a side I'm asking I know but ask the global peace index which is monitoring The 23 parameters that they base it on by scholars today It has 83 countries it's more peace and 81 countries. It's more war next time it goes 82 81 83

Aubrey Marcus: It fluctuates historically speaking the long-term trend in war and violence shows a substantial decline over thousands of years Though with important nuances depending on the time frame and metric

Dr. John Demartini: Yes, but that's based on just military war. That's not based on what their parameters are We have banking wars economic wars relationship wars. There's conflicts Then the global peace index is talking about banking wars. It's talking about all forms of conflict and peace They go on in the world and it fluctuates Based on different areas military wars go up and down. There's cycles to them

Aubrey Marcus: There are military wars that go up and down. No, they've been historically declining over thousands of years

Dr. John Demartini: European borders 1000 years All right, I don't even know what it's got an image of the European borders And they're fluctuating year by year by year and there's not one year that doesn't have a conflict in the war And a new Where the borders of Poland and Russia and all these things are all constantly constantly moving every time there's a movement. There's a war Though to say that there's not war going on at all times is just ludicrous I didn't say that there's not war. I said that there's a decline and there isn't a decline If there's there we have I've spoke I'm about to speak to the night nations in Bangkok on this very topic because they've asked me to present them information So let's inside your life you have moments of calm and moments of turmoil fact fact In moments with your wife you have moments of calm and moments of turmoil fact Great when you have your children you have moments of peace moments of war moments of calm moments of turmoil with your children Sometimes they're crying sometimes they're smiling sometimes they're peaceful in the bed sometimes they're scrying screaming and yelling at each other Don't know that yet, but I will soon. Oh, well, you haven't got kids yet. No, well, you will discover that I promise you when you discover that now when you get with your family Do you have your brothers and sisters and they have kids and their family? Guess what you'll find moments of calm moments of turmoil

Aubrey Marcus: and The good families Have a disproportionate ratio of moments of love calm peace like like throughout the that's not what love is love is not calm and peace

Dr. John Demartini: Love is a synthesis of opposites because the per you your wife unless you can want to deny love love You have times when you like your wife and times and you don't like your wife at times some herb behaviors That's the fact of life and if to say you don't have that as well like is different than love To like and dislike together make up love. You're gonna like things. She does

Aubrey Marcus: So so then so that's what love is by that saying by that what you're saying is that the substrate of life itself is love Yes, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you and so and the life and if we have the eyes We can see through the eyes of the Christ the build and destroy if we see through the eyes of the Christ Behold and make all things new and we see the world is off fantastic

Dr. John Demartini: But build and destroy and the transformation that which is a conservation law is unvioletable You don't break that law that's going on constantly build and destroy build and destroy build and destroy

Aubrey Marcus: See I think that I think the difference that I have fundamentally is is that I actually agree on this cosmic order of these different forces But I agree that locally we can actually adjust a local. I think there can be like there's this incredible community in Brazil It's called the source community. They are so unbelievably loving in that community. Now somewhere over have you been there or you's read Now I'm very close with them. I'm very close, but I haven't been there personally. So you haven't seen 24 hours a day

Dr. John Demartini: Okay, so you're basing on what you read and you're basing on the hope that they're that way But if you get to what I'm trying to make a point that you

Aubrey Marcus: Do you say you're saying that there's not a there's no human beings that gets one-sided

Dr. John Demartini: There is no human being No even Jesus wasn't one-sided So you know people like to put that on there They've they've read the constantly wiped out a lot of scrolls that were not included in the the dogma that they've got That that whole there's a whole lot of text on there that doesn't show him that one-sided state So if you go and take all of that you'll see both sides and if you take an individual

Aubrey Marcus: Jesus wasn't neither he was neither good nor bad. He was neither. He was neither

Dr. John Demartini: He represents the synthesis of opposites The synthesis of opposites because so no person no person can

Aubrey Marcus: Choose to actually express one. You can have a fan inside of it. You're gonna get one-sidedness

Dr. John Demartini: You can have the fan issue. You're gonna be one-sided, but you're not gonna be able to Obtain it without the other side. So

Aubrey Marcus: The idea the idea that people are neither can neither choose to be on this side of the pole or choose to be

Dr. John Demartini: All day long to try to be one-sided, but the other side still there You just you're just choosing not to press it You're expressing it you're just not aware of it because you're blinded by your morality

Aubrey Marcus: What do you mean you're not expressing it if if there's a violent impulse and you don't act in violence

Dr. John Demartini: Then sure you have a violent impulse you don't act in violent. You're repressing that feeling. Where's that going to your body now?

Aubrey Marcus: Well, it goes out in an ecstatic dance or a breath work in a roar that I howl at the moon and where's that energy go? It's still energy the cosmos great

Dr. John Demartini: So you're just giving it to the cosmos. You're a repressed energy sure

Aubrey Marcus: So I can so what I'm saying is good thing or it is because it's a good thing because what I'm saying is that we can affect things locally We can affect things in ourself. We can affect things in our family We can affect things in our country. We can even affect things on earth max Romeo the great a great reggae singer said I'm gonna put on an iron shirt and kick Satan out of earth now. Did he say I'm going to eliminate Satan? I mean, I believe in Satan, but let's just say let's just say that let's just say that that represents the darker side of the pole right That there's this you're saying there's look there's you're saying there's opposites. So you're saying that there's two poles

Dr. John Demartini: Well, you're saying that this is what no you're saying you're assuming that Jesus on the light side Satan's on the other side that's your assumption That's that's your assumption But there's some people that don't believe that. That's just your assumption

Aubrey Marcus: That's take the people out of it and you're also purified there. Let's say is there is there a good pole? Is there is there are there? No, there's just two different poles

Dr. John Demartini: No inside the light is the right person the Taoist understood the Yin and the Yang there's roomy and Rumi is the same as the jihadist Rumi is in his own way is a jihadist in the sense of promoting his ideal. Yes

Aubrey Marcus: Because they're trying to do what they think is God so the jihadist you were going if you were going to have somebody over for Christmas or Hanukkah and you could invite I've had both

Dr. John Demartini: I met with jihadist I met with him. It's very interesting. I learned a lot from what they how they believe I'm sure why did they come to their beliefs? How did they do? I actually confronted some and asked where in the Caran does it say this and say that They couldn't even find it. It was an interpretation And I was going why do people make those interpretations? It's interesting They justify it with a book There's got other people like frat hala who I had had a beautiful conversation as an Islamic leader In Cape Town, South Africa Here's two people taking the same book having two complete opposite perspectives Are they right or wrong? They're just two different perspectives of a text I said two interpretations of a text and the text was written by somebody Who's to say that that's sacred? You want to make that up? You want to make it sacred because somebody told you a sacred? Could be Maybe But we have to we study the Philology and the ex exegesis of that text we find out that that text is written over many centuries That's not written by an individual like to claim That's got textual things that prove prove that so if we go through there We go is that sacred? Is that a human Sincredic development of philosophy through great thinkers We know that Aristotle and Plato and and the neoplatonic philosophers and even follow We're all influencing other from Heraclitus Influence and Christianity We know that Aristotle influenced Muslims Their belief systems are incorporated into that it's a it's an integration The variety of religious experience by William James Integrates that philosophical view over time So to my to make that right or that sacred? No, it's a book

Aubrey Marcus: It's written by a group of people but but you you're you're unwilling to make a claim like let's say Gandhi was a better person than Gandhi was aggressive to his wife. He was a better person than Hitler. He was supposedly having of interactions and pedophilia with him Who do you think is who's a who's a person? Are you aware of that? I am aware that Gandhi had problems So so he's a human being yes, but Hitler killed did you get a million of people? No, he didn't kill

Dr. John Demartini: He had people do things

Aubrey Marcus: That is very pedantic, but yes No, it's not pedantic he was the he was the he was the

Dr. John Demartini: There were other groups the history of the Jewish show. There was many other groups there besides him But we also got to realize he's he was in the Thule Society I don't know if you wouldn't it's a it's a hidden hidden secret society of the Thule Society Madame Blavosky influenced the Thule Society She had gotten information from the Tibetan mysticism at the time And she was writing secret doctrine and ISIS unveiled in these texts He was a student of that In her texts they believed it there was the Polian race the hyper-Borian race the Lemurian race the Air and race uh, the the uh Atlantian race and the Lemurian race. It's not necessary true, but it was a belief and it was in those texts They studied that believing that that was true at the time before anthropology really got off and proved that was not So he believed that he was doing the best thing he could by praying Pure Aryan stock and the Germans were Aryan stock and the other people were not and the Israel and the The Semites or whatever were from a third and fourth-route race in his in that book So he was doing what he thought was the wisest thing he could now was he deluded? Sure was he must inform? Yes But in his belief system he was doing what he thought was the wisest thing for his culture

Aubrey Marcus: So if we stop and put things into context you believe that there's intentional evil like somebody's intending They know that they're not doing something that they believe is good because I agree with most of us Can I share a story with you a real story? Okay, no, I'm just I'm but I want this to relate to the this specific question

Dr. John Demartini: I'm gonna answer that question. Okay, great. Okay, so I'm in Cape Town, South Africa and I have a television show there and it's called leading opinion and Captains of industry and stuff And the lady that helps him with the show Um is very much involved in the Middle East issues Israel and Palestine So she asked if I can come in and mediate the conflict between Palestinian and Israeli leaders So they bring him into this room when I walked the room you put a knife in the air it was thick Because there's three Palestinians and five Israelis sitting across the table from each other Arch enemies in a room together So as I'm about to begin Little you could feel that if so thick on the room because of all the tension in the room. It could just hold a knife there The Israeli lady spoke up and she said dr. D martin. Do you believe in absolute evil? And I said no She said well, I do I said is that why you spent 14 years trying to negotiate a some sort of mediation and got nowhere And she said Nothing and her her Translator And mediator was chuckling Because she she got it And I said so what do you mean by absolute evil? She said well absolute evil. What do you mean by that? You make that statement. It sounds good. That's a label a generalized label that the amygdala does when it sees something that threatens you Okay, so um The thing that I think is absolute evil is um The rigidity of about opinion and unwillingness to uh to listen to reason Okay, that's absolutely evil in her minds and basically unwilling to come to a compromise So in other words real rigid belief systems that what you're saying yes Okay, and um basically a defensive argumentive belief system great Okay, you can say that's absolutely okay So Let's let's just uh go to a moment where and when you perceive yourself displaying or demonstrating that behavior It says I pride myself in not being that I never do that. I'm I don't do that and she give all this BS about how she never does that The person over here is just sitting there going what? And she um says I don't do that and I said well, I certainly do I sometimes am argumentive and rigid and stuff like that and I started listing all the places in my life I did because I went through the Oxford English Dictionary and I found out I had 4,628 Individual traits in my life not one of them are missing in me nothing's missing in at the level the soul nothing's missing in you at the level The sense of things appear to be missing in you the thing that appeared to be missing you're all the things are too Proud or too humble to admit you don't you see in others you don't want to face in yourself Which is your disowned part which is your emptiness? So I said I certainly have those those uh demanding and argumentive and rigid states at times and I started listing all my examples And when I gave it to I did it because I made her broaden her perspective of the forms She might be doing it and she started oh, I do have it here and here and here and we found I believe 39 examples of where she had done what he had done And as she did her her rigidity started calming down and realized I'm judging Him for parts of me. She got it I made her keep going and made her accountable Instead of just blaming him and making him wrong and her being right just where was her behavior She saw it when she was doing with her kid she did it with her Husband that's now strange She did it with people at work She started seeing it and we went all the way back into childhood where she'd done it to her sister and she just and she goes

Aubrey Marcus: Hmm

Dr. John Demartini: I said can you see that you have injected some moral ideal about how you're supposed to be And that person's not matching it and you're not even matching it You're not liking it about you not matching it so you're projecting it onto him And she goes Can you own it now and she got tear in her eye when she hit the point where it was equal she goes, okay I can see that okay now now go to a moment where and when you perceive him that way And rigid and not willing to see your side or your opinion Would you call reason but it's not reasonable. It's just an opinion So let's go and find out when he did it go to that moment right in that moment. How did it benefit you it didn't I said how did it benefit you look? How did it help you intellectually? How to well I went back to school Why Because I thought that was something unjust and so I wanted to educate myself and what do I can what I can do about I said so You were not inst you're not you've did not finish your school and you went back to school Is that a benefit that came out of his behavior Or your interpretation of his behavior? Yes And did you get your degree? I finished my degree. I said and is that something that you have Gained some value out of yes And what was that degree in social political science? I said so you end up going into social political science because of that behavior Yes, and have I believe you have books out now. Yes, and I believe you have millions of followers. Yes Is that all a result of that whole process? Yes Did you ever thank him or give him a percentage of the royalties for what he initiated in you and she goes no I said but you can see a direct correlation between that stimulus and that response. Yes And did that was that something you you're you're grateful for for you because now you have children and you have grateful that you were able to share All that knowledge with your children. Yes, but you did never thank this guy that was so rigid and everything else that's been your arch enemy Can you see your arch enemy is what drove you and motivated you to try to stand up and find out the opposite side She goes yes. I said and if you met prime ministers and and Presidents and leaders of the world and been spoken to you in and everything else. She goes yes I said would you have ever done that if you hadn't have met that guy or heard about that guy or had any interact with him I can't say for sure, but probably not. I was a mother at the time and just Mining my own business. I said so that terrible thing out there has blessed your life. She goes Yes, I said are you committed to having a resolution of this? Are you committed to Being a leader and having a bunch of followers believe your system and have him be as your opponent so you have business in your political positioning And she stopped and looked the mediator looked at her Kind of gave her a response Because if you're really committed to resolving this we can resolve this today If you're just committed to being right and making him wrong and just keeping this going and getting followers and getting good book sales And getting anything else what's your real intention? I'm not going to judge it. It's yours I'm just making you look at it. What's your real intention here? Because this thing is easily mediated and this thing can be resolved But if you're just going to go on and be right and be in your proud little moral construct Then you're not going to get anywhere So she humbled herself on the spot. She said You just woke me up to something that I was unaware of And I said okay, great. So what's your real commitment? She said I really do want to mediate this It's cried. I said so what's another benefit to came out of it? How did help you and your family? She said I'm a leader. I'm a strong family person. I Got a husband. It's taking helping me with the kids and We have an amazing thing and and I said what how did help you socially? She said well, that's Self-evident how to help you economically that's self-evident because of what's happened I said to you upgraded your entire life because of that absolute evil person over there Now the guy is sitting across the the table Not knowing that she's referring to him When she finally saw the blessings in it she broke down in tears and had to go and clean up her makeup She walked out so I needed to do my makeup and relieve my bladder because you've had me captive for a few hours there When she went to the bathroom he came up to me and says I swear to God that I could feel that she was talking about me I said she was Says listening to this whole dialogue has made me dissolve some of my anger towards her I Because I'm now going through the same process as she's doing this process. I'm going through there. I said I'm not even through I said There's another side because Anytime you take a position you created an office up at this position She said but he said I'm not angry at her as much as I was and I don't think she's angry at me as much now I said no, they're not we can dialogue now we can start a conversation now Because if you're in a dot debate you're not gonna get anywhere you're gonna be right And they're gonna be right you walk away and there's nothing's happened But a dialect it can help you get to her you're discovering her side she's discovering your side in the mode is behind it Then he told me a great story When she came back in I made him say it to her She said He said I don't know if you know this to the lady But I'm Israeli She said you are she says yes I was in a tank division as an Israeli and I was ordered by my superior To completely smash an entire house and family and I killed a bunch of kids and family And I just couldn't deal with it and I got out of the tank and I walked away and I defected and I went on the other side I said I said okay, so now you're judging yourself you're trying to make up for it make some sort of amends because you're now judging yourself for it But you sure that that's not the perfection to help you transform your life and have a leadership to make a difference in saving more lives He says when I have saved thousands and thousands of lives without a doubt I said so maybe those lives are not taken in vain maybe there's a blessing there that we haven't seen yet and he cried He said I never thought of it that way. I said Events have a purpose if we extract out of it the pairs of opposites and find the meaning of it They don't have a purpose if we stuck in a label We just go that that's wrong and right and you missed out on the meaning between the two And we have these artificial meanings we project on to things instead of the deeper Aristotle and golden mean the logo meaning the extracting meaning out of the whole thing as he did in the concentration camps Which is why he survived because he didn't see it as all evil and it's the end of the world And he didn't hold on to fantasies about how it's supposed to be and torture himself by the comparison Found meaning in that moment and anytime you find meaning in that moment and find the Blessing in that moment you're you're transforming what's happening in that moment and that's that's your agency at its fullest So we got through Not only did they have conversation they hugged 14 years of battle resolved the lady came up to me was a meteor and she said I've been with her for 14 years mediating in these conflicts and meat and translating Never seen anything like this nobody had the balls to tell her that and ask of those questions and put her on the spot They're afraid it's politically correct. It's morally trapped and we're just sitting here spinning our wheels We haven't gotten anywhere you actually got these two people on the same So I Finish that I came back three and a half months later to speak in Johannesburg again She is involved in this big radio show in Johannesburg when she's there for the Israelis And it's guarded security system. I go into there and she goes on and she told the entire story Live on the air to a couple million people And humbled herself and got off the high horse And said I'm willing to lose my following for the sake of mediation now I'm not going to just Agree with a group of people that are angry and be a leader of that people being angry I'm actually realizing that was a human being that I had in that room And I had a misinterpretation of that person because of my moral trappings And I now realize that he had another side and he was not this evil person an absolute evil that I walked in with so I do that every day my life is about resolving these delusions So that's why I'm pretty strong about it and it may not be maybe offensive to the people listening here But I'm not really concerned about that. That's not my focus to try to please everybody My focus is to educate people on on ways they can transcend the boxes that they're in which is their own That's their limiting beliefs. They're subordinating to outer authorities They're subordinating to moral hypocrisies and they're trapping themselves in what they don't even know is going on And they're capable of doing something magnificent if they honor both sides of themselves Well, what's magnificent the magnificent of the awareness of the whole picture is part of the the loving act It's all part of what it wouldn't unawareness be just as magnificent. Yeah, it's the journey of education This that was a beautiful story when you teach in elementary school they teach in in chemistry The first elementary school you have little balls You know, you have hydrogen helium lithium wire, you know, brillium boron all the way up to uranium and everybody in Elementary school things atoms of little balls. They see little blue and reds of balls and sticks And I think those are atoms then you go to high school and you find out there's a bore model Little electrons are going around protons and neutrons and it's like a little solar system Then you go to college and finance probability distributions of quantum numbers based on Schrodinger's equations and complex mathematics And then you go further and you find out we don't know it's an abstraction We don't really don't know what energy and matter is it's a mystery Nobody knows what energy is not a scientist on this planet does they just know how to use it So we go through and we teach people the illusion into the ready for truth and the ready for truth is the abstraction of not knowing So we really don't know what's good and evil. That's the the highest level of awareness All we know is that there's an event that we don't see the benefits to and we're there for labor bad Or we don't see the drawbacks till we label it good But who can if we ask the question and the quadriver life's basically quiet the questions We asked if we ask questions and help us see both sides We're centered again. We're not in the center when we're polarized. We're in the center when we see both sides

Aubrey Marcus: There there's a lot of beauty in that story So I want to acknowledge you for that I want to acknowledge you for the work that you did in that situation to bring about such a beautiful resolution and There's many aspects of that that I fully am on board with in The Hawaiian Kahuna tradition There's the idea of hope on a pono and everybody thinks of that is those four little phrases you say Thank you. I love you. I forgive you. You know, well, I don't even stop it

Dr. John Demartini: Forgive me. I go all the way to point just thank you for sure because forgiveness assumes it was something to need to be forgiven

Aubrey Marcus: Right, okay, so but actually in the deeper teaching the message of hope on a pono is to locate in yourself That thing that you find reprehensible in the other and by locating it in yourself And apply and applying the self internally you apply yourself externally. I think that's beautiful Yes, she was on the cross people are gambling for his garments He says forgive them for they know not what they do. There's beautiful beautiful teachings in that The story didn't answer my question about a actual intentional evil and well, but she but she was projecting She was projecting it was actually intentional evil. I'm not saying what people believe that's that was not my question I understand that she believed that that was absolutely

Dr. John Demartini: Clearly wasn't picked really showed that whatever somebody's doing in that moment with their perceptions and their content and their past experiences They're making decision based on what they think is going to give them an advantage of a disadvantage in that moment and that may not be fully consciously Agently aware because most of our responses are unconscious most Very few people actually have a conscious awareness 200 milliseconds after they did the act they come up with a bullshit reason why they did it That's not conscious awareness That's an automaton reacting and coming back and back dating the information saying that's why they did it Most people are reacting unconsciously most most behavior

Aubrey Marcus: When the Zoroastrians were moving across and encountering Different cultures and tribes One of the things that they saw was that one of the rituals being performed where they were boiling children in vats of oil And they came through and they said hey There's a different way that you can do this You can just burn some sticks in the fire and then you don't have to boil any more children To me that is a clear evolution of morality and value. I don't think we should regress back to well If you want to boil children and well, I'm not interested boiling chill I have no desire to boil a child and no and but I'm but the difference is I have a desire to stop people from boiling children

Dr. John Demartini: Well, that may be so because that maybe you've got a wound in your childhood that basically It's not because I have a wound is because boiling children. Nobody does something without a motive There's a void somewhere in there. You wouldn't be having that because you would you would go on to something else If you're if you're focused on If I see somebody

Aubrey Marcus: Boiling a child, I'm going to fucking stop it if I see somebody putting a cat in a microwave and about to push start I'm going to fucking stop it. I would probably too, but at the same time and it's not because of some trauma or some pattern Well, because there's because there's value that lives inside of me It's actually intrinsic to the cosmos. I am participating in but then you're saying that somehow they're not intrinsic The person is boiling is not able they're able to there's actual there are forces. They're actually looking to separate us Father Sean O'Lear says evil is a cosmic conspiracy to separate you from no that's dissociation

Dr. John Demartini: That's just dissociation if you dissociate anytime you put evil out there and good out there and give a Answer to Morphe to make a devil and a answer Morphe can make a savior You just associated yourself from all of you. That's you. That's all you. That's not out there

Aubrey Marcus: There's no good and bad people out there. They're just people. Yeah, but there's the people who are there's the cat in the microwave And then there's a child in the boiling question is the boiling why is somebody wanting to put in the cat in the microwave?

Dr. John Demartini: That's what I'd want to know why? Why are they motivated to do that? Why is that an expression of anger? Is that an expression of how they are dealing with things?

Aubrey Marcus: Could be trauma or it could be that there's I don't know or it could be that there's polarity all the way up and all the way down There's a there's a one-source love and then that splits into polarity and then the polarity splits into the fact that the polarities is a mental construct

Dr. John Demartini: The mental construct is the awareness of the polarities So we may add we may find out see in causality the universal law of causality is very murky Because we don't know what causes are you know we say well so and so did this but why did they do that? Well because we could say their mother and father were this way and that's why they did it Oh, we could because their mother and father was that way we could go and play murky games all the way back to the original sin It's all murky

Aubrey Marcus: The question is how do we I would we go back to the original sin that's a nonsense

Dr. John Demartini: But that's what some people do with causalities And in order to justify why something's good or evil I don't know I can't guarantee that I'm absolutely certain and I can make the moral decision that that's an evil thing If I can find out the other side of that equation I may be able to just transform their lives

Aubrey Marcus: And if that's a case you're not talking about what's the The actual interference with another person's agency and the creation of fatal levels of extended pain which is what's I'm talking about which would be absolute evil if someone is Slowly taking a cheese grater and grating off someone's skin and getting pleasure out of that situation Knowing that they're here to destroy life because life is beautiful

Dr. John Demartini: Then if that individual is doing that in order to find and torture somebody to get information that could save a billion lives You're creating a different hypothetical. I know But I'm saying so in that setting that you described it would appear to be evil in your mind But that doesn't mean that that act in every situation is what what and okay?

Aubrey Marcus: Let's say it's a three-year-old what what special information about nuclear codes is this three-year-old half?

Dr. John Demartini: Well, you're making again hypothetical. I don't know. I haven't seen anybody Attacks some three-year-old because what do you mean? There's all kinds of attacking a three-year-old for Nuclear codes. That's not probable

Aubrey Marcus: Right, but I'm saying there's some people who are tortured children. Yes Tortured them. Yes That's evil well, it's torture and the fact is it's not torture

Dr. John Demartini: It's a specific case of torture. He's doing it this person is doing an act That is perceived with more pain and pleasure or negative than positive in somebody's perspective If I take that child and I've done it god knows how many times if I take that child If you're lucky enough that the child survives if the love if well if it's not I get to work with the family But what about the child? I don't know can you prove that his death is is absolute evil I don't know if it opens up a doorway of opportunity for the family. It may be a gift I've seen that actually happen. I saw I'll give a real case Dallas, Texas a Family calls and said we just had my son get run over and he's dead and We're distraught can we come see you and I said I'm coming to Dallas tomorrow. We'll meet after my speech. We'll meet Mother stays out in the car in the garage. She can't she's too emotional The son and the the father come in there and we asked him a question What is the upside to this situation that your son just got killed? And they said well, how can it be an upside? Well, if you choose only to see the downside they'll never be an upside You'll you'll have to discover it over time, but you could discover it now. What's the upside? And they stopped and they reflected And he said without a doubt is brought our family absolutely Like I've never seen it disclosed and all that since this happened Great what else My son was sitting on the fence in his career about what he wanted to do And we've made a decision that we're going to open up a sausage manufacturing company in the name of my son And our family is this is a family business. We're going to do as a result of this event great And we're going to honor my son as this because this was his dream. We're going to carry it out Great, let's another benefit there My wife Has been overly protective of the son and now she realizes that this this trauma has happened like that She realizes she's been set free because she's been tortured and sleepless nights dealing with the son What's another benefit? Finally, we got enough benefits where they're calm. They're not distraught for a moment Right at that moment the mother comes out of the garage and she comes in and she comes and hugs the husband and she says It's all going to work out now I said what what did what what did realization? I just saw what we're going to do And I feel that that's the gift in the long run for everyone involved And so she saw it from a different perspective and so I look at it and I go yes, he was killed Am I going to say that that's evil? Nope. Am I going to say that that's a perception of loss in the family? Okay, temporarily But in the same moment There's a unification and blessings that come out of that to not focus on that and just make it absolutely bad or wrong or whatever To me it's very very shallow It's much wiser to go and find out how the other side of the equation is and balance the equation and get reasoned again Get out of the emotional labels and generalizations and distortions and highly emotive states which causes illness And get back into reason At Ralph Waldo Emerson said it very greatly in one of his quotes He says we we cry foolishly with people that are in traumas like that instead of hitting him with rough electric shocks and getting him touch with reason again I really believe that that regulate because that family built that manufactured company that picture of her son is on that front of that company His dream is sitting there manifested In that company as a family unified the family Is it evil? I don't know I don't know those answers you may you may think you know you may read a book and tell you it is that's an accident It's not an accident unless you choose to make an accident You say actually have meaning in purpose as Victor Frankl said of course, but but I'm not but you're you're

Aubrey Marcus: You're mixing up you're trying to ascribe to me that I would call that evil that he got run over

Dr. John Demartini: No, I'm just saying that the the the idea of death and and I've been saying that the idea of death was evil

Aubrey Marcus: It's not it's just an event

Dr. John Demartini: No, but I I agree and the person that ran him over they if they if they did it intentionally is that there's What they call upper motor neuron intention and lower motor known reaction one is violated in morality is stronger because you think you have an intention on it But if we go back to causality, why would somebody do that? What's the what's their experiences that led to that? Is that the cause of why that happened is the cause of those people? It's murky I don't want to go there I'd rather just go in there and find out okay it happened now is let's transform it into something useful now And because otherwise we're going to be trapped and we're going to just label it we're going to blame I'm not seen blame or credit with a devil or Jesus Give people their empowerment I do believe that Using the wisdom of the great teachings of Christianity and some of the things that were taught in there not all of them because there's text have been deleted I believe that some of that is used, but I don't believe that that's You don't want to disempower yourself by thinking somebody out there is going to take care of your problems and somebody over there is causing your problems If you go into credit and blame and not take on accountability and see the order of life I think you're missing out and you're staying in your amygdala and not getting your executive function not using your reason

Aubrey Marcus: Well, I think actually We did end up going the time that we had a lot of and I first of all I want to say that I was not attacking you at any point. Well, I thought that I was challenging you want to get me up to show I was I was debating you and I have very strong beliefs and I appreciate that you have your very strong beliefs I am not swayed from my beliefs in nor are you swayed from your beliefs and nor and that's okay

Dr. John Demartini: And that's beautiful. Yeah, I have no idea if you put this on the air doesn't matter and I I sold I'm concerned. I've had I've had a blast chatting with you for sure sure sure sure

Aubrey Marcus: This is my this is my fun and ultimately I'd love that to be a conversation that where you know We we connect and we look at the show and say like hey, do we want to put this out your show But also I have the I have respect for you and and if this feels this shows good above of us will put out and it what you can put in there

Dr. John Demartini: Take out I don't get attached. I've done thousand of these things. Yeah, I don't go to just want to let you know that I'll still consider this

Aubrey Marcus: I'm not going to play a game or anything I'll be collaborative in this process. I look if it will

Dr. John Demartini: That's just respect dignity. I'm not attached if it will serve your audience to put some of the out up there do it If you don't feel it will I appreciate that do not feel any Need to satisfy me. I ascribe that as noble. I just don't know. Let's just I know you all I know you

Aubrey Marcus: I know you want your human. I ascribe that to you. This is your show I'm a guest in your show and I think that's noble But I'm not going to I know you won't accept it

Dr. John Demartini: I'm not just saying I'm not going to I'm not going to pacify my My my my research for any human being on this planet nobody I talked I had the Dalama about cry one time and I had him in debate and I got him And he was caught in his little compassion I told him you're a theologist and you're basically destroyed your country And I even allowed in your country anymore wake up You didn't have any military there to keep yourself from the defense You didn't empower yourself financially and in all I almost every area you were just empowered

Aubrey Marcus: Yes, but what is a military for if it's all good anyway? Well, if you don't empower yourself in military

Dr. John Demartini: You're going to be taken over buddy, but what does that matter? Well, it doesn't in the old picture But if the same time you're going to be if you are wanting to express your own individuality You're going to require a mastery of all seven areas of your life Any of your life you don't master you're going to be overmaster overpowered If you don't empower yourself intellectually be told what to think Don't empower yourself mentally or in business you'll be told what to do if you don't empower yourself financially Tell what you're worth don't empower yourself in relationship. You'll be do honeydew crap around the house You don't empower yourself socially you'll be taught to Misinformation dogma you don't empower sufficiently be taken what drugs are taken organs to move You don't have do it spiritually you'll be subordinate to some anthropomorphic geostentric aerostolium platonic presacratic Western view of religion and that is just a small little piece of the bigger picture of the cosmos

Aubrey Marcus: I agree and I believe that empowerment of the self is good

Dr. John Demartini: I'm all for that but that requires Nice and mean and even our debates. I like this. This is my favorite. This is one of my favorite to dualities here. This is great. Well, thank you very much. I don't get to do that every time most of time. They're all you know polite, you know That's not where it's at Make people think for sure make people question make people ask questions and stir it up and get them in debate You get there's more views there. Yeah

Aubrey Marcus: Indeed. Well, I appreciate you. No, thanks. I'll give you hug. All right. Let's go The devil Which is which I'm both So am I actually Thanks for tuning into this video make sure you hit subscribe follow me at Aubrey Marcus Check out the Aubrey Marcus podcast available everywhere and leave a comment Let me know of this video resonated or what else you would like to hear from me in the future. Thank you so much

Dr. John Demartini: You

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Dr. John Demartini [00:00] Even Jesus wasn't one sided. There's a whole lot of text on there that doesn't show him that one sided state He was neither good nor bad. He was neither. All these things that we label good and bad It have been labeled good or bad depending on who you're taking side with. I have a really hard time with this

Aubrey Marcus [00:14] If I went home today and somebody was assaulting my wife, I would forcibly stop Probably because you would probably a hundred percent certainly I wouldn't say maybe this is his belief in this

Dr. John Demartini [00:25] You're going to react in that setting exactly proportion to your morality at the time if you see what he's doing as evil You're going to do it. You can stop him but it is evil in your perception It will be Rumi is the same as the jihadists Rumi is in his own way is a jihadist in the sense of promoting his ideal Yes, because they're trying to do what they think is God as agonist and antagonist and you're living and dying at this moment

Aubrey Marcus [00:50] You're killing yourself. You're acting as if I said death is bad. It's not I didn't

Dr. John Demartini [00:55] Say that neither is good is life good and neither is life good. No life has got benefits and drawbacks Bringing some people in the life is their torture. I don't say anything you can't say thank you for your baggage Anything you say thank you for your fuel. I actually agree with you on that. Thank you

Aubrey Marcus [01:09] It's not okay to be the child to a pulp. It's not okay to sexually assault a child There is something actually fundamental inside of us that is on a driving force towards life love freedom The experience to live this beautiful world and if somebody is Intentionally interfering with that we have an obligation to try and prevent or stop it. It's like a fight to you

Dr. John Demartini [01:32] It doesn't match your beliefs so you're ready to fight and your hands are shaking I'm not going to pacify my my my research for any human being on this planet Nobody the reality is that there's upsides to that event. There's upsides the murder of children. Yes. There's upsides to it

Aubrey Marcus [01:47] I think we're going to have to stop here John

Dr. John Demartini [01:52] I

Aubrey Marcus [01:55] Came into this podcast with Dr. John D martini expecting to have a conversation about how our thoughts can impact our reality And how we can utilize our belief field to actually draw towards us those things that we're more resonant with But what happened very quickly was something much different we highlighted a bright point of distinction in our worldviews and this turned into a very Intense debate and I think debate is healthy I think when people have two different opinions and they stand by those opinions and still allow themselves To have the discussion something greater emerges now at some point I didn't think that we could even make it through it felt like the chasm was so wide that even having the Conversation itself wasn't going to be fruitful or actually beneficial For the people listening, but as time went on I'm more grateful for this conversation because I think it highlights two different worldviews Is there such a thing as good and evil or is it all the one source without distinction? I believe it's a bit of both and in this conversation You'll see two clearly defined points of view and you'll be able to assess Where do I stand in these two different ideas these two different paradigms of thought and belief and what can I use in my own life To how I want to guide myself through this wild journey through life itself So I hope you guys enjoy this intense and Ultimately beautiful conversation with Dr. John D. Martini If you had one piece of code that you could psychically transmit to every human on the planet What would that code be?

Dr. John Demartini [03:51] Beyond the outer appearance There's nothing but love all else's illusion And that the quality of your life's based on the quality of the question you ask And the questions make you conscious of what you've been unconscious of so you can if Asking wise questions become fully conscious of this love What's the first question? Whatever you perceive in the world around you is a reproduction of you So whatever you see there Where do you do it in your own life and how does it serve?

Aubrey Marcus [04:26] now This brings up the idea for me that what happens when somebody through their own agency through their own projection their own will their own intent interferes with your own projection of what you're actually experiencing in your life like some Predation of some sort to yourself. Well, no somebody else comes in interferes with you in your life You know, so that seems to be also a factor in the universe, right that there's people who are on the way. It's all on the way

Dr. John Demartini [05:05] It's whatever I perceive in others as me So if I perceive somebody that's a predator They're there to make me realize that they're representing a part of me that I have an owned and loved and appreciated and they give me a chance now to go and do that So whatever we perceive in them is just if we're resending them It's because it's reminding us of some part of ourselves that we haven't appreciated that we're somehow feeling guilty or shame about And they're bringing us that ability to go and discover that find out how it's served after all and find out how they're serving us as our teacher not our not our obstacle So the predator is really The prey turned inside out inside our own psyche

Aubrey Marcus [05:46] I think this is a I mean, that's a strong mindset to have I think as a working mindset hypothesis that is a super helpful thing to have, but somebody could just All up their fists beyond some drugs and go punch you in the head And is that something that you believe that you attract it into your life or is that just part of Everybody operating from a place of agency any time you're

Dr. John Demartini [06:15] Perceiving and somehow impulsively seeking a poll the opposite poll will be there for you There's no separation has or a clientist described the unity of opposites is always present and if you see a poll and you're addicted and Infatuated with one poll the other poll is going to be something you resent and dislike and label If you can see both sides simultaneous and see that there's a unity of opposites You realize that it's there to teach us to not be attracted to one or repelled to the other Bipped up to see the whole at the same time the unity of opposites the synthesis and synchronicity of complementary opposites is what I describe love to be It's part of love too There's the law of risk to escalation shows that whatever we seek and we believe in The equal opposite is always there to balance it in the universe and in the world to make sure we don't get proud about our Perception perceptions and we get humbled by the other to make sure that we keep ourselves authentic

Aubrey Marcus [07:08] Is this related to the hermetic principle of rhythm that there's going to be this kind of sine wave that they're simultaneous

Dr. John Demartini [07:16] Yeah, they're simultaneous. I've taken probably 150,000 people through a simple question They let's say somebody does a particular act that they perceive to be terrible That they have been indoctrinated by some moral hypocrisy that that's a bad thing And I go, okay, go to that moment. Let's look at where it is when it is what it is who it was from and at that moment How did it serve you and they go well didn't and I go but how did it? Because you're assuming if you're seeing only one side that that's a projection of your your putting a box on that that action but so When they go and they look and they discovered there was it catalyzed a Reflection it catalyzed a humbleness it catalyzed Independency it made them less Disempowered it gave them catalyst of some form I always say any area of your life you're not empowered and you'll be overpowered by somebody to help you become empowered on that area And when they stop and they find the other side that it's subsides as being something terrible and it becomes now something fuel some opportunity to grow from So the challenges in life are necessary to make sure that we have Procotic independence and the over supportive nature that we try to addict ourselves to one side is what keeps us juvenile dependent And so we get caught sometimes in our mega less seeking a one-sided world instead of embracing the two sides that life always offers And if they we see them separate as will him want in 1897 described Sequential contrast and simultaneous contrast Sequential contrast as we see a positive and then later we see the negative like we're in fact Who is somebody and later we discover their downsides or we see somebody we think is terrible and then later we discover wow My life changed at that moment Why wait for the wisdom the ages with the aging process? Why not just ask the right questions and see that it's there now see both sides simultaneously and become poised in present and Purposeful see things on the way. Yeah

Aubrey Marcus [09:14] I mean, I fully understand and appreciate and receive the deep wisdom that is being transmitted here But I'm I have a kind of a cautionary feeling that this is a in some ways a Kind to a type of fundamentalism where people believed when there was a calamity that it was their sins that brought upon that calamity like I Didn't please God so God sent the flood or I didn't please

Dr. John Demartini [09:43] There's no displeasing or pleasing on this. It's just an event We we make events Pository negative in parts of the world that we in the Middle East Older men and younger girls are married for centuries for at least 1500 years In America that's you go to jail for it So in their culture it's a different culture. So if you have an international or a global view You don't react to either of those poles. You don't see one because of your localization As good and the other bad you see it from a perspective that is now understanding these are pairs of opposites And there's a unique opposites in the world and for every ideologue that promotes one There's an ideologue that promotes the other to count the balance it to keep the body and the the you might say the soul of the world The animal mondai in equilibrium so I don't I don't like to The gate something because of my lack of seeing the whole I'd rather go and dig deeper and find it But I don't label it with them. It's better good. I've just said it's an event now. How do we use it in? Consequentialism nobody knows the consequence of an action We can assume it's positive negative because of our training But if we look over time the central limit theorem shows that the bell curve distribution of positive and negative outcomes will eventually a surface So if we take a narrow short-term view we'll see positive or negative if we take a long-term view We will see that it's just a inevitable growth process of learning I mean sometimes people when they're 50s realize the things that they thought were terrible in their childhood They now go thank you Why wait 30 40 50 years to do it? Why not look now and find it?

Aubrey Marcus [11:26] What is the how do you view this in? Light of the idea of moral relativism with whereas if it's culturally appropriate Like we could say like well, you know, there used to be slavery. Why not have slavery now? It's like whatever you think there is but internally, but there is and there's also you know some forced physical slavery still unfortunately in our world but this feels like a violation of Value itself like actually perennial perennial values You know these evolving and changing values like we actually know in our body that certain things Don't feel right certain things are wrong and I feel that there's an imperative to stand when we see something that's wrong

Dr. John Demartini [12:14] Well if we study I just wrote a textbook on morality this last year again and The evolution of morality is an evolution of the brain The brains of Miggla has the amygla, which is a sub-cortical nuclei Assigned valency to Events that are stimuli that are evoked from the outside world and we label these are prey or predator good or bad Attraction repulsion impulse instinct and we label those things and they're not But our perceptions and then we go through we we think okay, that's a that's a terrific thing a guy meets a girl And he thinks oh my god. That's that's amazing and then over the next few weeks or months He discovers what that she's got things he didn't see he was blind By that infatuation initially and so the amygla fooled them Because it needs to accelerate its misperceptions and false pauses in order to capture the the prey or it fools them into an escaping a predator But then what happens is the person that you infatuate with eventually you discover some of the downsides and find out Now I know both sides of the person and I start to love this person. I Was infatuated confusing that with love now I'm discovering love for who what it really is and the same thing that same person Can now because it they didn't match the fantasy you can then be angry at him and now they're part of your nightmare And then you did eventually discover there's some benefits in the part that the sides you don't like about the person Eventually realize that those two sides were you're in complete awareness Is and that there's there's a beautiful bouquet of opportunities sitting in both sides the unity of opposite so Morality starts out with the amygla and And eventually through the singulate cortex it goes up in the medial prefrontal cortex where it sees things Objectively and it sees it neutrally and doesn't see it and so for an in Absolute morality, which is the most primitive form of morality It eventually goes into what is called a relativism and a situational ethics, which is more objective and That what that does is allows us to stop and not just immediately react but see things as they are Which has both sides? Because we with our incomplete awareness label things only to find out that that label was our incompleteness and Michael Montaigne traveled all over the world Trying to find a universal and morally ascended a value system only to discover that in time and space and none of them ever were ascended so life and death and all these things that we label good and bad throughout history have been there and have been labeled good or bad Depending on who you're taking side with a jihadist who is believing very strongly in Eliminating anything that's not his belief is doing what he thinks is good in Afghanistan Where somebody in a western world would think he's doing something able and a pictorist says That any human being will not do anything unless they believe there's more advantage and disadvantage in their value system at that time And so they're going to do what they think is good and somebody else may think it's bad But that means that which is true? To the jihadist his belief is his belief and the other person's got a different belief I'm trying to take a perspective that How do we find both sides in these things? Because if not we take a side and the more we take a side the more we create an opi side The side meaning I'm right and you're wrong. You need to stop this. This is dangerous Eventually the more we try to do that the more we create the very thing we're trying to eliminate So we either anything we try to avoid we create running into and keep doing it again. So I'm a more of a Ask in a question. What are the downsides to what they think is up to help them like a dialectic instead of a debate a dialectic What's the downside to the person who's a jihadist so they can become aware and Listen to the person that sees the downside and what is the upside? To the person that sees the diseable so they can both learn how to love and appreciate each other and communicate and have a way of communicating their differences together

Aubrey Marcus [16:22] I have a really hard time with this honestly because if I went home today and somebody was Assulting my wife. I'm just driving home How to nice podcast we worked out some differences in our opinion and our you know our ontology of morality and value etc And had a good time and someone was in there assaulting my wife. I would forcibly stop it Probably because you have probably a hundred percent certainly I wouldn't say

Dr. John Demartini [16:50] Maybe maybe this is his belief in this my belief you're going to react in that setting Exactly proportion to your morality at the time if you see what he's doing as evil you're going to do it You can stop him but it is evil in your perception it will be But so you don't believe that there is actual evil? No, I don't I don't believe there's actually evil I think what we have is that that's a we've personified that and gives names to it and call it good or Evil or God or devil and things like that, but these are anthropomorphisms The reality is that there's an event there I'm not negating that the person is doing something that challenges you he may be taking your wife's life or trying to If you value your wife, you'll try to save her life That's perfectly understandable and that would be good in your perspective If you valued him and somebody was supporting him and he thought that she had done something that challenged him They may see it at completely different I'm not one to take a side on that. I'm one to say I'm going to look at what I'm going to do in that moment and in that moment I might find out that I would be favorable on your wife's side for sure Probably so and I would probably do what I can to stop But then you're going to be in situational ethics again. You're now going to go okay I've may have saved her life But I've just killed somebody So I'm now taking to I'm doing a situational moral system there If I murdered the person out of self-defense, that's considered good in some countries Another places you've now got out you've just killed somebody Over here you just saved somebody's life. You're a hero in a villain at the same moment So you have to decide which one is your belief if you have a belief that that one's good By saving her and this one's bad by killing him But saving it because it's defense then that's the situational ethics that you put yourself in I'm not going to make it good or bad. I don't know exactly what that's going to be in that setting I know that hypotheticals. It's easy to come up with hypotheticals But the probability of your wife having an attacker Is less likely if unless she's somehow trying to live in anxiety and over protection and putting herself in a position where that might happen I would rather her, you know, not be in a position where that happened Rather do what I can to to keep that from happening

Aubrey Marcus [19:05] So there is there was a a person who was on a train Christopher Katon There was an attacker with the knife and he was going around looking to stab as many people as he could with the knife Christopher Katon Act, I believe that's his I believe that's it the correct name there. He acted In a way that actually Saved many lives from this kind of deranged knife wielding attacker on the train So Did he to deliver did he survive he survived, but he saved a lot of lives. Yeah, okay. Yeah, he's right So in that instance, would you say that actually based on your worldview that he should have just let the guy continue to

Dr. John Demartini [19:45] There's no imperatives here He's going to react see to try to live by a should as usually futile The injected values of outer authorities are not something you can control what you can control is your perception If you're in a situation and you perceive something is really really really terrible at the time You're going to react within a regular response and try to If it's attacking you you'll try to defend yourself with a fight or flight or freeze response If you think it's something that's going to save some else's life and you think that's good. You're going to react that way Your values at that moment are going to make you react according to what it is The hypothetical about how and what you should do it may not have anything to do with what they're going to do at that moment because The injected values how we ought to be and the actual values of how we function are not always the same so I don't know hypotheticals are usually Just hypothetical you can debate all day long. This is a real this was a real situation. But if it's a real case What he did in that setting based on his perceptions at that moment and what his values were he responded That's all we can do Some people will watch that him avoid and run and hide others will go and attack If they thought that they could achieve something that was meaningful in their value system They'll possibly attack the attacker Another person would hide and scream and hide and try to protect themselves Which one is good you tell me So if you if you feel you could actually like the They when they had the shooting in in Bandai beach There's a guy that went and attacked That the guy that was shooting Well, he had some special forces training or something. He had some knowledge and things and he didn't feel That that was overwhelming to try that But most people running hiding under cars and doing whatever they could so To say that one's good and the other one's bad or whatever is I don't I don't think that's that doesn't make sense to me What does make sense is that value system of that individual at that moment with those perceptions are going to determine how they're going to react And each of those reactions Are going to be appropriate to them in that perception. I can't I can't make that one wrong for for coward and running under The car. I can't make that just good because he went to do it because he could have killed himself and been a foolish actor The we don't know in what those consequences are All I know is it The person did he went out of his way and he thought he could tack the guy and he did But he didn't get him to stop shooting he kept shooting afterwards But he still tried his best to stop him So in his case he thought that was a wisest another person's case running under cars His wisest thing because he may be thinking or she may be thinking I got three kids at home If I go over there and I do that and I get killed my kids are Are going to be left without food and clothing and shelter So they're going to have to sit on to make a situational ethics at that moment To I go in I save my kids and have a higher value on my kids and save my life for the sake of my family My wife just died. I have nothing to lose I'm going to go ahead and tack that guy I don't know until I go and look at all the different parameters the situation To put that together to put some sort of assessment on that and I'm not going to make them as good a bad I'm just going to say the human beings are going to respond Based on their values at that moment to that situation based on what their experience is it

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Dr. John Demartini [24:53] Don't know because What is child abuse that's the thing and we would call child abuse here in America having sex with the five year old Well, um I've seen brothers and sisters have incest in a bathtub and having sex with each other playing around an adult having sex Well, that's not my preference That's not something that I have experienced in my life But I don't know what's going on. I have after working with about 1300 cases of pedophilia that I've gotten to work with Both sides of the equation. I find out that many times the people that are the pedophiles Uh, were either slammed and punished for masturbation or punished in a very young A dealing with sexuality and that little boy or little girl that's in that age is still inside that adult And that little boy is now being attracted to the little girl at the same age. I'll give you a real case I worked with a gentleman who was from Japan who'd been eight years in prison for pedophilia a psychologist over there asked me to work with him Um, they were in the room with him and His mother caught him masturbating when he was eight and a half years old Um, she beat him nearly to a pulp

Aubrey Marcus [26:06] Um, but that's but that's okay because that was just her value system right

Dr. John Demartini [26:09] Well, she had a husband that had a high sex drive and was looking at porn and she when he's when she saw her son begin to do that She lost it the anger she had to her husband got taken out on the child And the husband was more assertive and more powerful and so she couldn't take out her anger on him So she took it out on the child so that's okay

Aubrey Marcus [26:31] I'm not making it. I'm just trying to get the okay. It's just fundamentally not it's not okay to be the child to a pulp It's not okay to sexually assault a child It's not okay to murder people want to know there is something actually fundamental inside of us that is actually on a Driving force towards life love freedom the experience to live this beautiful world and if somebody is Intentionally interfering with that we have an obligation an ought we have an obligation to try and prevent or stop

Dr. John Demartini [27:02] well All I know is that the the gentleman grew up I had to continue my my point that I'm making Um at eight and a half years old All the girls that he targeted for pedifilia were eight and a half Even though he went up to 33 years old now Some of the girls were meeting him in a dressing room at a mall And having multiple sex with him These are eight and a half year old girls having sex multiple times with him So I'm not interested in the morality here. I'm interested in the why do people do what they do What is it that drives these behaviors? Because if you just make a black and white and you don't look deeper You assume that that's bad and good you never get to understand why that's happened

Aubrey Marcus [27:52] I don't assume and I actually know it. I actually know it in my body like I think well I think this is actually a common sense sacred axiom with if you see somebody abusing somebody innocently That's wrong Well You can that's that's a perspective. That's not a perspective That's not it for that to for that to be a perspective then why do we even have laws? Why do we even why do we feel why does why does like you could take all kinds of different individuals And you could expose them to this image and they'd be like horrified by this right because it's the lives and throw ontologically It lives in our body. We actually have value built in let me let me let me add something here

Dr. John Demartini [28:33] I've had the opportunity to work with thousands of people that have been through these traumas and these terrible things And as long as you have that idea that it's all bad or it's all good and it's black and white they're trapped the rest of their life Because now they're a victim of that I'm I'm teaching people how to be a master to destiny not stay victims of history When I show them how to find the blessings out of it and the upsides to that and be able to see the things They're let free The guy right now is out of jail He's not a pedophile anymore. We've dissolved the issue He hasn't had any issues because we found out what the real reason was and we changed his life We also helped him appreciate what his mother was doing because he had an overprotective person in the family whenever you have overprotective people in the family You get perpetrator that's aggressive When he starts to when you understand the psychology that's driving both of these poles You take out the morality on this and you start understanding why do people do what they do For just label it bad or good is not going to get you anywhere except keeping them victims But if they go in and find out how it comes out on the other side They can sit down and get home with their life and look back at that and say thank you I would say anything you can't say thank you for your baggage anything you say thank you for your fuel I actually agree with you on that so then personal basis then that would be when we're gonna basically say Well, you know, it's like the the Odyssey, you know, how do we explain the So-called evil in relationship to God Maybe it's a human invention maybe we made that as evil because we haven't seen the blessing something Maybe we made something good because we haven't seen the downsides I'm more in that perspective because I've worked with thousands of people who think they've had terrible events Helped him see the other side of it Actually go to the people and be grateful for those individuals Yeah, but if you open your heart and have that tier of gratitude for what's happened in their life and used it to do something amazing with their life

Aubrey Marcus [30:30] Well, what happens when that ends up in a fatality someone Someone murders a child like like they don't have the opportunity to be great They don't have you haven't gotten to work with the murdered child. I have not the murder child But the family that's what I'm talking about like the murdered child doesn't have a chance to be grateful for the murder

Dr. John Demartini [30:48] I don't know what's going on in the psychology of the murder child I just because I didn't get to work with a little murder child But I do know I get to work with the family and I get to watch with the dynamics and the family and how it shifts And watch the Upsides to that event because you say it's just an evil event and there's no benefits to it is very narrowed The reality is that there's upsides to that event. I worked for the lady after the the big there's upsides the murder of children

Aubrey Marcus [31:13] Yes, there's upsides to it. I think I think we're gonna have to stop here John. Well

Dr. John Demartini [31:20] You're too black and white. I guess for me to be able to share. I mean I look I I can I share my story you can turn it off. I don't care. I'm not here attached to it Yeah, I'm just gonna tell you that I went to the thing with the timmiethic bay thing that was blown up in there And I met with a family that had the little girl the little blonde girl that was killed in the bombing I do you remember that? Mm-hmm. Okay. I met with the family. I talked to the whole family She said and this is her quote one of the greatest things ever happened in my life at that bombing That's what she said. This is the mother who lost the child and there's a picture of the restaurant with a girl there with the blonde blonde girl there She now has two children one that looks almost identical She has a new relationship with a new man. She's her business is booming her life is unfolded She's now contributing the daughter is contributing in a way from the story and she looked at it and she says If that hadn't happened, I would not be where I am today would not have I was with a alcoholic husband that was beating me in my daughter My my life was on skid row almost and that event changed my life and it blessed me with a new husband new children new things like that So I just go Okay, she has this perspective that this has been a great turning point in her life We don't want to rob people of that. We don't want to rob people Yeah, but he's the but the little blonde girl was robbed of her life Well, I I don't know what was going on in this I kill that because I'm gonna shoot I'm gonna share a story and another story then There's a lady named Peterson, which is actually the family comes from Austin her Well, I can't reveal too much of it, but her Family all have doctors is there everybody in the family has to be a doctor family. There's doctor three generations of doctors so the pressure on the family had to be doctors in the process of doing that uh, and they all had to be males So they had a daughter and they didn't want a daughter. They wanted all males the mother had this fantasy that I have to have males and I don't want a daughter so the daughter Was rejected by the family by the mother particularly The daughter decided to try to be Homosexual and play out the male role to try to be part of the family She ends up going and becoming the doctor to try to be part of the family No matter what the mother would rejected her rejected her rejected her She ends up going it and even having an affair with the same man that her Mother dated prior to getting married And having a boy a baby boy with that person To try to bring a male into the family to be part of the family. She tried everything Her mother told her you don't exist. You're no longer in our family Please leave us Well that night she called a friend of mine and she was suicidal She was thinking about taking her life So she calls and that lady calls me try to reach Connie do whatever you can to reach her I think she's she's gonna make commit suicide No matter what I did no answer no answer no answer no answer the following morning she's in uh Colleen Texas I believe and Colleen Texas. She's in a little denny's for breakfast in the morning And there's some gang members near that and a drive-by gang member shooting shoots in and she's the one killed in the in the shooting Now you could say well that's that's just a random event Maybe or maybe not maybe she was ready to just go and maybe that's part of the Liberation what happened is the baby boy that she had got sent to the mother and the mother raised the boy And she got what she wanted she wanted to leave she never got to be a part of the family I don't know if if we want to play God and act like we know what's right and wrong Well, that's pretty that's anthropomorphic and very human. We're not playing God We are participating in God and and if it's God where's God not it's in everything. It's in everything That's what Einstein was trying to say and and even moshay uh Memonides of the Jewish tradition had the idea that there's there's we go through and we lock things into black and white And there may not be that we may not see the purpose of why things are happening originally And we if we stop and narrow it down because of our own experiences and our own local belief system We can just narrow it. I mean divinity is not local to a particular culture or particular time in a particular space It's omnipresent and it includes everything and to try to say it's not inclusive here because it doesn't match our belief Is very very narrow-minded for a human being to do It's wiser to go in open hearts to see a bigger picture and find the order and things a Heraclitus who influenced massive numbers of philosophers and thinkers and religious people Christiani Judaism and Muslims the three big ones His idea was there was a hidden order and a apparent reason and and even phylo who was studying Christianian and Called Jesus the the the logos take from Heraclitus and Heraclitus said to inside the apparent chaos There's a hidden order we choose not to see it our job is to discover it when we do we're graced and we're no longer Fighting with the universe with our idea what's going to happen is if there's a one-sided world out there

Aubrey Marcus [36:47] There isn't a one side I think that it's both our obligation to discover it and also Participate in it. That's the difference. So like I went to I went to when I was 15 I went to a dungeon of the Inquisition and I saw all of these torture devices It was horrific these torture devices. I would say 80% of them had to do with torturing genitals So I don't know numbers are somewhere in the many millions of different people who were tortured for years with the most

Dr. John Demartini [37:19] Horrifics the motive what was a motive for them to torture

Aubrey Marcus [37:24] That doesn't matter torturing an individual torturing an individual is actually Fundamentally wrong like taking someone's genitals and putting spikes through them or Stretching them until they until they all their bones break repeatedly slowly over time There is no justification for that. It's unjustified. Can I give a justification for it?

Dr. John Demartini [37:47] You can but I won't believe it. Well, you may not believe it that that's maybe that the limit on your beliefs I mean, let me just give you a believe If somebody actually happened if you saw somebody would be vomit if you saw snow I wouldn't vomit if you saw somebody About to blow up with a nuclear bomb. I mean you situation lathies because it's a typological like you did You take a hypothetical. I went to the dungeon. This actually happens. Okay, but you gave me an earlier one that was hypothetical

Aubrey Marcus [38:13] So let's let's okay. Let's let's go to and then I quickly moved on to actual real-world examples like this

Dr. John Demartini [38:20] Let's take somebody. It's about to do a nuclear Bombing yeah, okay, and you've just now captured people who know all about it And the only way to get information out of miss torture

Aubrey Marcus [38:32] That is now a hypothetical example because that's not what was happening if it just happens in the English happens in Cuba

Dr. John Demartini [38:38] This happens in America every single day People use torture in order to extract information to save lives That's not what the institutional ethics, but may not But what you didn't answer the question. What is the what were the reasons why they were torturing them? Were they believing something different? Were they rigid and about their beliefs? Were they stuck and they were making people evil?

Aubrey Marcus [39:02] Why were they torturing them? So what I what I would respond is is that there's a field of value There's actually a field of value and sometimes if you make one value absolute like thou shalt not kill I don't agree with that. I believe that there is a time. The largest current history is the Old Testament God

Dr. John Demartini [39:19] 24,970 deaths in the first in the Old Testament. Yeah, and and my without

Aubrey Marcus [39:26] And father and father and father and father sure it is of course and father shana learn is book setting God free puts god on trial for crimes against humanity That and then ultimately comes the conclusion that that was a projection of our own idea So I'm not trying to all these projections of human limitations That's where we have a fundamental disagreement that I believe that there is fundamental value and there is fundamental right and wrong

Dr. John Demartini [39:51] You can you have two different views you got the relativist and absolutist the absolutist really narrows their mind and so that's good And that's bad and that's it and don't bug me don't try to change my opinion the relativist says But what about this situation and what about this situation? No, there's a middle path though

Aubrey Marcus [40:06] There's a middle path. There's a relativist. No, it's not there's no, it's not it's then it's that there's

Dr. John Demartini [40:12] There is situation does play a part Aristotle's golden mean and the golden virtue was the middle path The Buddhist middle path equanimity was the middle path of Christianity That is the middle path. It's the synthesis of opposites and the synthesis of opposites life and death Build and destroy your body right now has mytosis and apoptosis. It has oxidation and reduction That has dehydrogenous hydrogen has pairs of opposites as agonist and antagonist and you're living and dying at this moment Every single day you're living and dying Part of you's dying right this minute You're killing yourself with pre-programmed genetic codes to make sure you die And your cells are dying and remodeling and reestablishing with neuroplasticity bioplasticity my myoplasticity

Aubrey Marcus [40:57] You're killing yourself. You're acting as if I said death is bad. It's not I didn't say that neither is good is life good

Dr. John Demartini [41:04] There's neither is life good. No life has got benefits and drawbacks bringing some people in the life as their torture You have a mother when a mother bears a child she has two sides one that's publicly acceptable and the other one That's not one she goes oh my god my baby's born. I'm so excited. I'm so happy. I got my baby thing There's another part going oh my god. What am I get myself into what's gonna happen to my physical body? What's gonna happen to my career? What's gonna happen is this guy gonna leave me There is torture and ecstasy in that moment and the same when somebody dies Grandma died. Oh, I'm so sorry Finally because she's been tortured and she's dragging out and she's taken in she's burdening herself and burning others Other people are somewhere relieved. She's finally going There's both sides to it And if we take one side and maybe one life is good and death is bad. That's very narrow Very narrow Very unaware that your body has got built and destroyed in society. I didn't say no

Aubrey Marcus [42:00] I didn't say death is bad. I just said I just said life in general is good if there is if there was somebody about to push a button That would detonate all the nuclear bombs in the whole world and the earth was going to cease to have life

Dr. John Demartini [42:15] Well, I don't think to even if you launched them all it would still have life

Aubrey Marcus [42:20] Okay, so let's come up with another example here Because you're using hypotheticals. I'm gonna use hypothetical. This is why I think life is good I think God actually desires for there to be an ever-deepening complexity of my God's thoughts

Dr. John Demartini [42:34] You just made that that's that's a bit of a self-righteous projection onto the God you know God's well

Aubrey Marcus [42:40] Why is there life then you?

Dr. John Demartini [42:42] When somebody says they know God's will Baz Lerman in the book and there's a movie that's come out called oh my God. I was in and Baz Lerman said anybody that

Aubrey Marcus [42:50] Look God is always God's will is God is always a mystery However, if you look at what has happened life has been Increasing in complexity and increasing increasing in diversity expense of extinction

Dr. John Demartini [43:03] That's what extinction origination always balance an evolution you can see that very easily

Aubrey Marcus [43:09] There's you don't you don't ever have evolution without extinctions well then evolution which leads to more life is good So if you're gonna snap out all the life in the universe

Dr. John Demartini [43:19] Your body has from the zygote all the way to the fully differentiated individual You have mitosis and apoptosis in perfect balance And evolution has been always extinction in order birth newer species They have to have extinctions as part of it and adaptations So to say that life is good and that death is bad or Moving forward towards a great life is bad I think death is a part of life but life itself But life is also taking other resources out of the out of the world and And residing choose to not kill yourself

Aubrey Marcus [43:49] We do it every day. I kill parts of myself every day. No, but you're still alive fundamentally. I

Dr. John Demartini [43:55] Parts of yourself. Yes, as a regenerating cycle of the soul wants to survive and it wants It wants to live over dying because life is beautiful

Aubrey Marcus [44:04] Because the world is beautiful because we get to love people We get to dance so it's dead we get to hug we get to kiss and we chose to be in this life And if someone tries to take that life, there's no songs without death. There's no poetry. There's no death What do you mean? There's so many love songs? That's not about death. It's just about the experience of radical

Dr. John Demartini [44:24] Aluseness that she the most wants to both hug and slug you They always have both sides. Yeah. No, I don't I don't agree I love people. I have no desire to I've got 150,000 people I bash that question to and I assure you that there's times when they like the person times when they don't Sometimes hug sometimes lugs sometimes embrace sometimes want to push away. That's the nature of us Will love is a synthesis of obviously it's not one-sidedness. That's a very very amygdala very Neuphitic industry understanding about what love should there be no law We're going everybody's going to have a different level of awareness at the very bottom as as Colberg said in his moral development the very bottom of the moral development There's right and wrong and black and white and reward and punishment heaven and hell and all that stuff As you go up it becomes more abstract and you understand situation ethics until you finally understand universal laws When universal laws are there you realize that these are synthesis of opposites And that's what the purpose of the dialectic was used from Zeno It was there to teach people to honor both sides of life So at first you're going to make avoid that seek that but as the Buddha said very beautifully the desire for that Which is unobtainable and the desire to avoid that which is unavoidable is the source of human suffering People are suffering trying to get rid of half of their life If you look and you did a drone or viewing of you or me or any human being for three months at a time in video Recorded him 24 hours a day You wouldn't see a hero without a villain. You wouldn't see a saint without a sinner You wouldn't see a pause without a negative You wouldn't see a like without a dislike Nature has a balance of opposites and wisdom is the embracing of the two sides of life not the fantasy of one sidedness Now I've I've been studying this 53 years and I'm certain that there's two sides of life You have two sides if I video recorded you 24 hours a day You know you're probably never going to put me on your show If I videotape you and I got your wife and your family into your kids and put to you and really videotape you you be heroine villain And you have to face and you know that

Aubrey Marcus [46:31] Yeah, I because I know human beings. They have both sides, but so you can know me

Dr. John Demartini [46:37] I don't know you. I just know human beings know all human beings No, I know that human nature has a set of values there's and they're going to have their value supported and challenged throughout their day in life For sure, and they're going to react nice and mean and kind and cruel and you If you tried to deny that in yourself, well, then you're in denial because that's that's the nature

Aubrey Marcus [47:00] Everybody is capable of the greatest of both. I agree with you. I already are capable of it

Dr. John Demartini [47:06] But it doesn't mean I get rid of myself if if you want to love yourself You're never going to love yourself trying to get rid of half of yourself You are not going to love yourself. Look, I agree with you actually here You have both sides You're not used to having this on your show probably, but you're going to have both sides And you're a loved one and your wife and your kids are going to have both sides and no matter what you try to do They're going to have both. No, they're not going to have them equally though

Aubrey Marcus [47:30] Well, they're not going to have me choose to see my mother my mother You may not choose to see both sides know that you may choose to not choose to express both sides

Dr. John Demartini [47:40] That's what a hero does that's not I will but nature forces you into a situation where it comes to the surface repressions eventually express repression

Aubrey Marcus [47:52] No, it's my desire. It's not it's not a desire is your amygdala and your amygdala It's deeper than that. It's not you can't it's not your

Dr. John Demartini [48:01] Materialist no, it's not desire is universal. I'm a neurologist. No, the the amygdala is a source of desire Look it up and your executive center tries to govern it to moderate it But you're going all your desires to try to be one-sided our futile. They're in non-sustainable futilities They're not going to happen one-sidedness. You may lie to yourself about I'm only a good person I'm more good than bad But you got to look at different people with different perspectives If somebody comes up to me and has a similar value set to me They're going to see me as determined and perseverant and and forthright and another person is going to see me with a different set of values You're going to see me pig headed rigid and stuck They're both right in their perspectives and it's all me You have both You may choose to avoid certain people that will point out those sides You may choose to not want to hear your wife when she's upset with you pointing out those sides You may not want to hear your perceptions from your kids when they are talking to their friends You may want to live in a moral hypocrisy about one-sidedness and try to be a superior being

Aubrey Marcus [49:03] But you're going to be humbled when you do that. No, there's there's a choice. We have agency Yes, I agree that there's a choice. You know where they come from

Dr. John Demartini [49:12] They come from the experiences that you've accumulated throughout pre-gestational

Aubrey Marcus [49:17] I don't agree with that. So I don't agree that I don't agree that everything is determined I agree that actually I I believe that we have agency and then we have a choice and we have a choice whether to express our darker inclinations We did or a choice to express a car

Dr. John Demartini [49:32] It's going to trigger the buttons that we're going to respond to because you're assuming that you can override your impulses Yes, yes, and you can override your impulses. I've wanted to hit somebody and not done it You've repressed it inside yourself and then attacked your customers right here in front of me I'm basically talking you well You're basically taking information that goes against what you say and you're saying I'm because I'm refused to put it on my show because of it That's what you just said right here. Can you face that? You because it's a it's like a fight to you. It doesn't match your beliefs So you're ready to fight you're ready to fight and so you're the one that's you're the one that's far more

Aubrey Marcus [50:05] I'm having far more emotional This is fun and you're the one is accusing me of attacking you which I'm not

Dr. John Demartini [50:10] I'm just putting it forward my idea. Your hands are shaking. No, it's a time calm when you say that you're going to not go any Further on a podcast because of what I'm saying because fundamentally it challenges you and you're going to know

Aubrey Marcus [50:23] Because it's putting out information that I think is detrimental to the world

Dr. John Demartini [50:26] I know and that's that you have a Paragraph to do that you're free to do it your podcast But can be you can throw this tape right out But the reality is you can lie to yourself about that you don't have both sides

Aubrey Marcus [50:38] And you can try to confess that I didn't have both sides john you're putting words in my mouth multiple different times

Dr. John Demartini [50:44] But you're saying you have your your your agency is not completely under control Know him and being has complete control over their agency. That's the fantasy that people have They're going to react, you know I know because you've already stated if I saw this that's a terrible thing

Aubrey Marcus [50:59] Are you already reacted by labeling it terrible? Yes, if I saw somebody if I saw somebody beating a child to a pulp

Dr. John Demartini [51:05] I would react yes, yeah, I would but I know you and would you walk away? I know a gentleman right now who's in Australia and Brisbane, Australia who is beaten as a child And right now he's one of the biggest

Aubrey Marcus [51:16] Educators in does that not mean I shouldn't stop what was happening?

Dr. John Demartini [51:20] You are going to if you if you have a perception that I'm saying you're going to try to protect the child

Aubrey Marcus [51:25] But I but should I not you're saying that there's no I'm not putting moral

Dr. John Demartini [51:30] It sheds on there that's some authority that you've given power to that's outside you I'm looking at that situation at that moment and taking that and based on my experiences and based my values I'm going to respond. I may try to protect the child. I may try to run. I may tell this child to run I may throw a stone. I don't know what I'm going to do. It's all hypothetical until I'm in that situation And to say it what I would do is kind of hypothetical until I do it

Aubrey Marcus [51:58] Well, no, it's actually called pre-meditation. It's what every different every difference still it can be different Sam, I don't know you you go through these hypothetical scenarios so that you know how you will act according to your own Value system that you believe is the Nature

Dr. John Demartini [52:15] Force you to the edge of your awareness every time You will automatically attract the more you try to protect yourself from certain people the more you attract the predator I guarantee you so everybody who's been Attracted it into their life any time you're addicted to ask for this question everybody who's been

Aubrey Marcus [52:31] Attracted out in a lot of cases of pedophilia 13k and the children attracted the the pedophile. I didn't say attracted you did

Dr. John Demartini [52:38] No, you said you attracted into their life. I said that they will automatically have in their life the counterbalancing Perception so if they're addicted to one side the opposite comes in okay, and let's go answer that question then the

Aubrey Marcus [52:51] The child And the and the person who's been did they attract that into their life? Okay, you really want to go there

Dr. John Demartini [52:59] Let's go all right when you take if you start with it's too broad you got to break down the to its components First thing you find is something like threat Then you might find violence then you might find Deceit you break it down. There's 18 most common things that I've seen in cases 18 Now if I asked you have you ever threatened somebody if you're honest you said yes You've probably threatened somebody in your life by said you ever tried to force somebody to do something they didn't want to do If you're honest with yourself you probably have done that maybe your kids when they they wanted to play and you said no do your homework If you go and and you take a look at where you've deceived somebody well You've deceived yourself in some cases and probably other people if you break into its little components and identify all the components And don't take the big generalization and label You have done the same thing So the first thing I do with people that have been just I go in and help them find out what are the components? Where do they have done them in their life that calms down some of the judgment on it in the first place So instead of being a victim they're now looking at it with a little bit more rationality Then I go in there. Let's take each one What was the gain and the benefit that came out of that moment? And I did that in front of 600 people for a lady that was stabbed 18 times and left on a street with a A chain to a piece of cement to be run over by trucks In about an hour and a half she was in a state of gratitude She shifted her perspective She actually closed rise and saw the individual that did it She was freed from the anger and resentment She lost 45 to 50 pounds of weight. She changed her hair. She was now able to date people again She started her own radio show in Washington, D.C Her life changed because I asked questions that she never got asked because she was trapped And that was evil and I'm now trapped for the rest of my life in that thing I made her look at where she did everything that he had done in her own form She in her own metaphorically even stabbed people in the back that were close friends in her perspective She found out what was the upsides to it and helped her get out of a Relationship she didn't want to be in it helped her get out of a city She didn't want to live in there's a whole lot of things that came out of it that she was very blessed by When she got through She actually closed rise saw the individual that it experienced this from she had tears arise. She said thank you And that's something that most people don't comprehend and most people are real caught in their little moral trips And they're basically victims of history their whole life Instead of looking at a possibility that there may be an alternative way of looking at life

Aubrey Marcus [55:33] So I think that what you went through with her was a very beautiful thing

Dr. John Demartini [55:38] Well, I've done that on 1300 I don't I don't deny that and that's why you won't convince me that you can't find blessings in it I'm not trying to convince you that But so then it is not evil until you choose to make it stay stay evil

Aubrey Marcus [55:51] It's just an event the last of the great human freedoms is the ability to choose our attitude towards any given circumstance

Dr. John Demartini [55:57] Weam James state that yeah, the victor frankle victor frankle and logotherapy. Yep

Aubrey Marcus [56:02] So fundamentally like we whatever happens to us we can choose to make that a blessing

Dr. John Demartini [56:07] I agree with you. So then why are we going to label it good or bad then then why not just see both sides

Aubrey Marcus [56:14] Because why not see both sides after what we do after it happens is different than actually Doing something to prevent that from happening But if you're if you're saying that she are you saying that this person who is stabbed in That she attracted it into her life because of

Dr. John Demartini [56:32] Because she had stabbed people in the back prove or disprove that that's none none of that just pertinent That's that's a that's like trying to get a why that happened. I don't know that all I know is what we've got She was She was stabbed all we have is when it's presented to me. That's all I got now She's sitting there in a suicidal mode. She's taking drugs. She's gained weight She's protecting herself from relationship. She can't keep a job down She's doing alcohol and drugs. That's what I'm presented with When she finished she was in a state of grace. She saw a hidden order to it. She was very thankful She moved forward. She ended up writing a book. She went on her made her own radio show. She ended up losing weight Cleaning up her looks. I mean she looked complete different And who's with man now? So is that a terrible event or was that an event that she perceived as terrible and for 13 or 14 years no 18 years she was in misery over it and then in an hour and a half She changed it and turned on and did something amazing to life So is that event the cause of all this pain and suffering or is it a perception of that event and how she decided to see it That's where we have agency That's agency the ability to Transform the perception and allow whatever's out there to be used for something amazing Instead of sitting there and labeling it good or bad in the front

Aubrey Marcus [57:58] So if you saw that person stabbing her 18 times tying her to the Cinder block ready to get run over you would say ah this might be a blessing

Dr. John Demartini [58:06] I don't know yet. I can't label it good and evil. I don't know yet So there's no I know is that I look if I go and if I go and say that that I don't know what's in that guy's mind I don't know how he's been raised. I don't know what he's been through. I don't know how he's perceiving I don't know what his values are I don't know those things So to if if we were in his Mockisons and we were walking his path we might have the same behavior. We don't know. I don't know that If you know I've seen people that have that have grown up where they have They're beaten by their dad and they're like that and they grew up thinking You know, I would I just want to stay away from all violence And then they end up marrying Three women in a row that are violent like their dads to try to learn the lesson that they're trying to separate one side from the other And so they go from one pole to the other as a dissociation and a kind of a Freeze response and create a fantasy land out there and they get addicted to the fantasy land instead of honoring the order of what's there I'm just a guy that's basically stopping because if I see black and white and I see good and evil and I start there I can't help them I am stuck with them. I'm right there My compassion is one wounded person buying into the wounds of another person and staying stuck with them When a sympathy which keeps them juvenile dependent not grow and they say stuck I've seen it in women's battered shelter places that I've gone and spoken in they stay there and the Governments funding the darn thing and it's keeping that as a business and those people are just staying stuck I go in there and I help them see the other side They're set free. They go out and get jobs. They go out there and value themselves again

Aubrey Marcus [59:44] I'm not a victim mindset apologist. I don't believe that we should

Dr. John Demartini [59:47] So why are we gonna give it a title called a victim? Why are we gonna label it as an evil and a thing? Why not just label it as an event and event

Aubrey Marcus [59:55] Yeah, and certain and certain events certain events should be stopped

Dr. John Demartini [60:01] Well, you believe you know that I do know that well, okay, then you're

Aubrey Marcus [60:06] On that well, somebody I don't know if you're torturing another individual no matter how much you try to stop that

Dr. John Demartini [60:13] You have not stopped it no one has

Aubrey Marcus [60:16] Don't stop sitting you can stop it locally if it's happening like Christopher Katan in that train He stopped multiple people from being stabbed to death. Yes

Dr. John Demartini [60:25] He's a hero look there are there are policemen out there trying to stop that every single day

Aubrey Marcus [60:29] And there's and if there weren't there would be more crazy shit happening probably but but the

Dr. John Demartini [60:35] As you have one the hero you also have the villain And then you get rid of one villain you now give an opportunity for other villains to come in You don't get rid of those two sides of nature Whatever collective society represses selective society expresses that's been demonstrated by Nietzsche and many philosophers and Machiavelli and Castiglione So whatever we condemn in society and try to repress it doesn't go away It concentrates in another place in an individual now the question is is this repression in this group over here Causing that person to be the one that's outletting it if so pointing our finger at them is really very shallow Let me let me explain something in a family time you are you have a brother or sister? Yes, several okay Well, there's somewhere in your family. There's playing out the opposite pull of you There's somebody out there in the family done because family dynamics the summation of all family done It's cancel each other in value systems So whatever you think is good. There's somebody's gonna play the opposite to you The more you're morally right the more you're just gonna be this is gonna be situational or the more you're Directed and clear an agency the more they just go with the flow. There'll be pairs of opposite that family And you're smiling because you know there's truth. No, it's bullshit

Aubrey Marcus [61:45] That's not true like I know so many families where that's just not true. Well, okay I mean like you can't say that at and every single family you're gonna have the two opposite poles express

Dr. John Demartini [61:57] That's crazy in the family knowing every single family in genetic expression the family dynamic has pairs of opposites

Aubrey Marcus [62:04] I don't know my wife and my wife has one sister They're both lovely sweet. I know them deeply, but they're both lovely to somebody

Dr. John Demartini [62:13] No, they're actually objectively lovely. Okay, but in a family dynamic. You're not giving me the whole family You're giving me the two sisters

Aubrey Marcus [62:20] Okay, so okay, okay, so then you're saying like the whole family in the broader

Dr. John Demartini [62:24] Summation the summation of the whole family our complementary opposites that equal love And so that mechanism is not just in a micro world in the sense of a family It's global so every single thing out there that somebody believes in and has a value on there Some of the options that set of values is a complete speculative but it has to it has to equal out in a single family Well across the planet. This has been shown by Michael

Aubrey Marcus [62:48] Maybe maybe across maybe across the cut across the cosmos I actually believe in this But to imagine that the cosmos has to be reflected in a single family Why can't one one whole family be because you on one pole and one other whole family be the opposite pole And then they'll make each other and they'll marry each other no, they won't

Dr. John Demartini [63:11] They won't they don't I assure you there's a law of similars and differences the law of similars and differences when you infatuate with somebody You see more similarities and differences when you resent somebody you see more differences similarities So you're attracted to the similarities because of that so you're attracted to it But you attract the opposite because the person has both sides So you're going to get both sides the the nice the mean the kind the cruel the positive negative the peace and war So to say that there's not a pair of opposites and families is just not seeing the obvious because it is It may not be in the two sisters They may have the brother that's playing the opposite or a father that's playing the opposite But there's a pair of opposites in that family The same thing occurs on social structure That's why you have a balance of peace and war and the global peace index People think they're going to go out and create world peace. It's a complete delusion in fantasy peace and war has been on the balance In a state balance and every year they documented 99.7% of the population in the world is being monitored By 23 parameters in every country showing that these things maintain balance If you look at the borders of European borders for the last 1,000 years there hasn't been one year that hasn't had war going on in that in those countries

Aubrey Marcus [64:19] So peace and war is I don't I don't think that's accurate actually. I think if we look this up I think if we look this up right now

Dr. John Demartini [64:25] Global peace index look it up. Okay

Aubrey Marcus [64:28] historically Begging Has there been there's peace and war more or less

Dr. John Demartini [64:37] War as time well no hold on meant if you ask different people they're going to take a side I'm asking I know but ask the global peace index which is monitoring The 23 parameters that they base it on by scholars today It has 83 countries it's more peace and 81 countries. It's more war next time it goes 82 81 83

Aubrey Marcus [64:59] It fluctuates historically speaking the long-term trend in war and violence shows a substantial decline over thousands of years Though with important nuances depending on the time frame and metric

Dr. John Demartini [65:09] Yes, but that's based on just military war. That's not based on what their parameters are We have banking wars economic wars relationship wars. There's conflicts Then the global peace index is talking about banking wars. It's talking about all forms of conflict and peace They go on in the world and it fluctuates Based on different areas military wars go up and down. There's cycles to them

Aubrey Marcus [65:35] There are military wars that go up and down. No, they've been historically declining over thousands of years

Dr. John Demartini [65:40] European borders 1000 years All right, I don't even know what it's got an image of the European borders And they're fluctuating year by year by year and there's not one year that doesn't have a conflict in the war And a new Where the borders of Poland and Russia and all these things are all constantly constantly moving every time there's a movement. There's a war Though to say that there's not war going on at all times is just ludicrous I didn't say that there's not war. I said that there's a decline and there isn't a decline If there's there we have I've spoke I'm about to speak to the night nations in Bangkok on this very topic because they've asked me to present them information So let's inside your life you have moments of calm and moments of turmoil fact fact In moments with your wife you have moments of calm and moments of turmoil fact Great when you have your children you have moments of peace moments of war moments of calm moments of turmoil with your children Sometimes they're crying sometimes they're smiling sometimes they're peaceful in the bed sometimes they're scrying screaming and yelling at each other Don't know that yet, but I will soon. Oh, well, you haven't got kids yet. No, well, you will discover that I promise you when you discover that now when you get with your family Do you have your brothers and sisters and they have kids and their family? Guess what you'll find moments of calm moments of turmoil

Aubrey Marcus [66:58] and The good families Have a disproportionate ratio of moments of love calm peace like like throughout the that's not what love is love is not calm and peace

Dr. John Demartini [67:10] Love is a synthesis of opposites because the per you your wife unless you can want to deny love love You have times when you like your wife and times and you don't like your wife at times some herb behaviors That's the fact of life and if to say you don't have that as well like is different than love To like and dislike together make up love. You're gonna like things. She does

Aubrey Marcus [67:30] So so then so that's what love is by that saying by that what you're saying is that the substrate of life itself is love Yes, I agree with you. Yes, I agree with you and so and the life and if we have the eyes We can see through the eyes of the Christ the build and destroy if we see through the eyes of the Christ Behold and make all things new and we see the world is off fantastic

Dr. John Demartini [67:49] But build and destroy and the transformation that which is a conservation law is unvioletable You don't break that law that's going on constantly build and destroy build and destroy build and destroy

Aubrey Marcus [68:00] See I think that I think the difference that I have fundamentally is is that I actually agree on this cosmic order of these different forces But I agree that locally we can actually adjust a local. I think there can be like there's this incredible community in Brazil It's called the source community. They are so unbelievably loving in that community. Now somewhere over have you been there or you's read Now I'm very close with them. I'm very close, but I haven't been there personally. So you haven't seen 24 hours a day

Dr. John Demartini [68:32] Okay, so you're basing on what you read and you're basing on the hope that they're that way But if you get to what I'm trying to make a point that you

Aubrey Marcus [68:40] Do you say you're saying that there's not a there's no human beings that gets one-sided

Dr. John Demartini [68:46] There is no human being No even Jesus wasn't one-sided So you know people like to put that on there They've they've read the constantly wiped out a lot of scrolls that were not included in the the dogma that they've got That that whole there's a whole lot of text on there that doesn't show him that one-sided state So if you go and take all of that you'll see both sides and if you take an individual

Aubrey Marcus [69:10] Jesus wasn't neither he was neither good nor bad. He was neither. He was neither

Dr. John Demartini [69:16] He represents the synthesis of opposites The synthesis of opposites because so no person no person can

Aubrey Marcus [69:25] Choose to actually express one. You can have a fan inside of it. You're gonna get one-sidedness

Dr. John Demartini [69:30] You can have the fan issue. You're gonna be one-sided, but you're not gonna be able to Obtain it without the other side. So

Aubrey Marcus [69:37] The idea the idea that people are neither can neither choose to be on this side of the pole or choose to be

Dr. John Demartini [69:45] All day long to try to be one-sided, but the other side still there You just you're just choosing not to press it You're expressing it you're just not aware of it because you're blinded by your morality

Aubrey Marcus [69:55] What do you mean you're not expressing it if if there's a violent impulse and you don't act in violence

Dr. John Demartini [70:01] Then sure you have a violent impulse you don't act in violent. You're repressing that feeling. Where's that going to your body now?

Aubrey Marcus [70:07] Well, it goes out in an ecstatic dance or a breath work in a roar that I howl at the moon and where's that energy go? It's still energy the cosmos great

Dr. John Demartini [70:15] So you're just giving it to the cosmos. You're a repressed energy sure

Aubrey Marcus [70:17] So I can so what I'm saying is good thing or it is because it's a good thing because what I'm saying is that we can affect things locally We can affect things in ourself. We can affect things in our family We can affect things in our country. We can even affect things on earth max Romeo the great a great reggae singer said I'm gonna put on an iron shirt and kick Satan out of earth now. Did he say I'm going to eliminate Satan? I mean, I believe in Satan, but let's just say let's just say that let's just say that that represents the darker side of the pole right That there's this you're saying there's look there's you're saying there's opposites. So you're saying that there's two poles

Dr. John Demartini [70:53] Well, you're saying that this is what no you're saying you're assuming that Jesus on the light side Satan's on the other side that's your assumption That's that's your assumption But there's some people that don't believe that. That's just your assumption

Aubrey Marcus [71:08] That's take the people out of it and you're also purified there. Let's say is there is there a good pole? Is there is there are there? No, there's just two different poles

Dr. John Demartini [71:17] No inside the light is the right person the Taoist understood the Yin and the Yang there's roomy and Rumi is the same as the jihadist Rumi is in his own way is a jihadist in the sense of promoting his ideal. Yes

Aubrey Marcus [71:31] Because they're trying to do what they think is God so the jihadist you were going if you were going to have somebody over for Christmas or Hanukkah and you could invite I've had both

Dr. John Demartini [71:45] I met with jihadist I met with him. It's very interesting. I learned a lot from what they how they believe I'm sure why did they come to their beliefs? How did they do? I actually confronted some and asked where in the Caran does it say this and say that They couldn't even find it. It was an interpretation And I was going why do people make those interpretations? It's interesting They justify it with a book There's got other people like frat hala who I had had a beautiful conversation as an Islamic leader In Cape Town, South Africa Here's two people taking the same book having two complete opposite perspectives Are they right or wrong? They're just two different perspectives of a text I said two interpretations of a text and the text was written by somebody Who's to say that that's sacred? You want to make that up? You want to make it sacred because somebody told you a sacred? Could be Maybe But we have to we study the Philology and the ex exegesis of that text we find out that that text is written over many centuries That's not written by an individual like to claim That's got textual things that prove prove that so if we go through there We go is that sacred? Is that a human Sincredic development of philosophy through great thinkers We know that Aristotle and Plato and and the neoplatonic philosophers and even follow We're all influencing other from Heraclitus Influence and Christianity We know that Aristotle influenced Muslims Their belief systems are incorporated into that it's a it's an integration The variety of religious experience by William James Integrates that philosophical view over time So to my to make that right or that sacred? No, it's a book

Aubrey Marcus [73:16] It's written by a group of people but but you you're you're unwilling to make a claim like let's say Gandhi was a better person than Gandhi was aggressive to his wife. He was a better person than Hitler. He was supposedly having of interactions and pedophilia with him Who do you think is who's a who's a person? Are you aware of that? I am aware that Gandhi had problems So so he's a human being yes, but Hitler killed did you get a million of people? No, he didn't kill

Dr. John Demartini [73:46] He had people do things

Aubrey Marcus [73:48] That is very pedantic, but yes No, it's not pedantic he was the he was the he was the

Dr. John Demartini [73:53] There were other groups the history of the Jewish show. There was many other groups there besides him But we also got to realize he's he was in the Thule Society I don't know if you wouldn't it's a it's a hidden hidden secret society of the Thule Society Madame Blavosky influenced the Thule Society She had gotten information from the Tibetan mysticism at the time And she was writing secret doctrine and ISIS unveiled in these texts He was a student of that In her texts they believed it there was the Polian race the hyper-Borian race the Lemurian race the Air and race uh, the the uh Atlantian race and the Lemurian race. It's not necessary true, but it was a belief and it was in those texts They studied that believing that that was true at the time before anthropology really got off and proved that was not So he believed that he was doing the best thing he could by praying Pure Aryan stock and the Germans were Aryan stock and the other people were not and the Israel and the The Semites or whatever were from a third and fourth-route race in his in that book So he was doing what he thought was the wisest thing he could now was he deluded? Sure was he must inform? Yes But in his belief system he was doing what he thought was the wisest thing for his culture

Aubrey Marcus [75:05] So if we stop and put things into context you believe that there's intentional evil like somebody's intending They know that they're not doing something that they believe is good because I agree with most of us Can I share a story with you a real story? Okay, no, I'm just I'm but I want this to relate to the this specific question

Dr. John Demartini [75:22] I'm gonna answer that question. Okay, great. Okay, so I'm in Cape Town, South Africa and I have a television show there and it's called leading opinion and Captains of industry and stuff And the lady that helps him with the show Um is very much involved in the Middle East issues Israel and Palestine So she asked if I can come in and mediate the conflict between Palestinian and Israeli leaders So they bring him into this room when I walked the room you put a knife in the air it was thick Because there's three Palestinians and five Israelis sitting across the table from each other Arch enemies in a room together So as I'm about to begin Little you could feel that if so thick on the room because of all the tension in the room. It could just hold a knife there The Israeli lady spoke up and she said dr. D martin. Do you believe in absolute evil? And I said no She said well, I do I said is that why you spent 14 years trying to negotiate a some sort of mediation and got nowhere And she said Nothing and her her Translator And mediator was chuckling Because she she got it And I said so what do you mean by absolute evil? She said well absolute evil. What do you mean by that? You make that statement. It sounds good. That's a label a generalized label that the amygdala does when it sees something that threatens you Okay, so um The thing that I think is absolute evil is um The rigidity of about opinion and unwillingness to uh to listen to reason Okay, that's absolutely evil in her minds and basically unwilling to come to a compromise So in other words real rigid belief systems that what you're saying yes Okay, and um basically a defensive argumentive belief system great Okay, you can say that's absolutely okay So Let's let's just uh go to a moment where and when you perceive yourself displaying or demonstrating that behavior It says I pride myself in not being that I never do that. I'm I don't do that and she give all this BS about how she never does that The person over here is just sitting there going what? And she um says I don't do that and I said well, I certainly do I sometimes am argumentive and rigid and stuff like that and I started listing all the places in my life I did because I went through the Oxford English Dictionary and I found out I had 4,628 Individual traits in my life not one of them are missing in me nothing's missing in at the level the soul nothing's missing in you at the level The sense of things appear to be missing in you the thing that appeared to be missing you're all the things are too Proud or too humble to admit you don't you see in others you don't want to face in yourself Which is your disowned part which is your emptiness? So I said I certainly have those those uh demanding and argumentive and rigid states at times and I started listing all my examples And when I gave it to I did it because I made her broaden her perspective of the forms She might be doing it and she started oh, I do have it here and here and here and we found I believe 39 examples of where she had done what he had done And as she did her her rigidity started calming down and realized I'm judging Him for parts of me. She got it I made her keep going and made her accountable Instead of just blaming him and making him wrong and her being right just where was her behavior She saw it when she was doing with her kid she did it with her Husband that's now strange She did it with people at work She started seeing it and we went all the way back into childhood where she'd done it to her sister and she just and she goes

Aubrey Marcus [79:09] Hmm

Dr. John Demartini [79:10] I said can you see that you have injected some moral ideal about how you're supposed to be And that person's not matching it and you're not even matching it You're not liking it about you not matching it so you're projecting it onto him And she goes Can you own it now and she got tear in her eye when she hit the point where it was equal she goes, okay I can see that okay now now go to a moment where and when you perceive him that way And rigid and not willing to see your side or your opinion Would you call reason but it's not reasonable. It's just an opinion So let's go and find out when he did it go to that moment right in that moment. How did it benefit you it didn't I said how did it benefit you look? How did it help you intellectually? How to well I went back to school Why Because I thought that was something unjust and so I wanted to educate myself and what do I can what I can do about I said so You were not inst you're not you've did not finish your school and you went back to school Is that a benefit that came out of his behavior Or your interpretation of his behavior? Yes And did you get your degree? I finished my degree. I said and is that something that you have Gained some value out of yes And what was that degree in social political science? I said so you end up going into social political science because of that behavior Yes, and have I believe you have books out now. Yes, and I believe you have millions of followers. Yes Is that all a result of that whole process? Yes Did you ever thank him or give him a percentage of the royalties for what he initiated in you and she goes no I said but you can see a direct correlation between that stimulus and that response. Yes And did that was that something you you're you're grateful for for you because now you have children and you have grateful that you were able to share All that knowledge with your children. Yes, but you did never thank this guy that was so rigid and everything else that's been your arch enemy Can you see your arch enemy is what drove you and motivated you to try to stand up and find out the opposite side She goes yes. I said and if you met prime ministers and and Presidents and leaders of the world and been spoken to you in and everything else. She goes yes I said would you have ever done that if you hadn't have met that guy or heard about that guy or had any interact with him I can't say for sure, but probably not. I was a mother at the time and just Mining my own business. I said so that terrible thing out there has blessed your life. She goes Yes, I said are you committed to having a resolution of this? Are you committed to Being a leader and having a bunch of followers believe your system and have him be as your opponent so you have business in your political positioning And she stopped and looked the mediator looked at her Kind of gave her a response Because if you're really committed to resolving this we can resolve this today If you're just committed to being right and making him wrong and just keeping this going and getting followers and getting good book sales And getting anything else what's your real intention? I'm not going to judge it. It's yours I'm just making you look at it. What's your real intention here? Because this thing is easily mediated and this thing can be resolved But if you're just going to go on and be right and be in your proud little moral construct Then you're not going to get anywhere So she humbled herself on the spot. She said You just woke me up to something that I was unaware of And I said okay, great. So what's your real commitment? She said I really do want to mediate this It's cried. I said so what's another benefit to came out of it? How did help you and your family? She said I'm a leader. I'm a strong family person. I Got a husband. It's taking helping me with the kids and We have an amazing thing and and I said what how did help you socially? She said well, that's Self-evident how to help you economically that's self-evident because of what's happened I said to you upgraded your entire life because of that absolute evil person over there Now the guy is sitting across the the table Not knowing that she's referring to him When she finally saw the blessings in it she broke down in tears and had to go and clean up her makeup She walked out so I needed to do my makeup and relieve my bladder because you've had me captive for a few hours there When she went to the bathroom he came up to me and says I swear to God that I could feel that she was talking about me I said she was Says listening to this whole dialogue has made me dissolve some of my anger towards her I Because I'm now going through the same process as she's doing this process. I'm going through there. I said I'm not even through I said There's another side because Anytime you take a position you created an office up at this position She said but he said I'm not angry at her as much as I was and I don't think she's angry at me as much now I said no, they're not we can dialogue now we can start a conversation now Because if you're in a dot debate you're not gonna get anywhere you're gonna be right And they're gonna be right you walk away and there's nothing's happened But a dialect it can help you get to her you're discovering her side she's discovering your side in the mode is behind it Then he told me a great story When she came back in I made him say it to her She said He said I don't know if you know this to the lady But I'm Israeli She said you are she says yes I was in a tank division as an Israeli and I was ordered by my superior To completely smash an entire house and family and I killed a bunch of kids and family And I just couldn't deal with it and I got out of the tank and I walked away and I defected and I went on the other side I said I said okay, so now you're judging yourself you're trying to make up for it make some sort of amends because you're now judging yourself for it But you sure that that's not the perfection to help you transform your life and have a leadership to make a difference in saving more lives He says when I have saved thousands and thousands of lives without a doubt I said so maybe those lives are not taken in vain maybe there's a blessing there that we haven't seen yet and he cried He said I never thought of it that way. I said Events have a purpose if we extract out of it the pairs of opposites and find the meaning of it They don't have a purpose if we stuck in a label We just go that that's wrong and right and you missed out on the meaning between the two And we have these artificial meanings we project on to things instead of the deeper Aristotle and golden mean the logo meaning the extracting meaning out of the whole thing as he did in the concentration camps Which is why he survived because he didn't see it as all evil and it's the end of the world And he didn't hold on to fantasies about how it's supposed to be and torture himself by the comparison Found meaning in that moment and anytime you find meaning in that moment and find the Blessing in that moment you're you're transforming what's happening in that moment and that's that's your agency at its fullest So we got through Not only did they have conversation they hugged 14 years of battle resolved the lady came up to me was a meteor and she said I've been with her for 14 years mediating in these conflicts and meat and translating Never seen anything like this nobody had the balls to tell her that and ask of those questions and put her on the spot They're afraid it's politically correct. It's morally trapped and we're just sitting here spinning our wheels We haven't gotten anywhere you actually got these two people on the same So I Finish that I came back three and a half months later to speak in Johannesburg again She is involved in this big radio show in Johannesburg when she's there for the Israelis And it's guarded security system. I go into there and she goes on and she told the entire story Live on the air to a couple million people And humbled herself and got off the high horse And said I'm willing to lose my following for the sake of mediation now I'm not going to just Agree with a group of people that are angry and be a leader of that people being angry I'm actually realizing that was a human being that I had in that room And I had a misinterpretation of that person because of my moral trappings And I now realize that he had another side and he was not this evil person an absolute evil that I walked in with so I do that every day my life is about resolving these delusions So that's why I'm pretty strong about it and it may not be maybe offensive to the people listening here But I'm not really concerned about that. That's not my focus to try to please everybody My focus is to educate people on on ways they can transcend the boxes that they're in which is their own That's their limiting beliefs. They're subordinating to outer authorities They're subordinating to moral hypocrisies and they're trapping themselves in what they don't even know is going on And they're capable of doing something magnificent if they honor both sides of themselves Well, what's magnificent the magnificent of the awareness of the whole picture is part of the the loving act It's all part of what it wouldn't unawareness be just as magnificent. Yeah, it's the journey of education This that was a beautiful story when you teach in elementary school they teach in in chemistry The first elementary school you have little balls You know, you have hydrogen helium lithium wire, you know, brillium boron all the way up to uranium and everybody in Elementary school things atoms of little balls. They see little blue and reds of balls and sticks And I think those are atoms then you go to high school and you find out there's a bore model Little electrons are going around protons and neutrons and it's like a little solar system Then you go to college and finance probability distributions of quantum numbers based on Schrodinger's equations and complex mathematics And then you go further and you find out we don't know it's an abstraction We don't really don't know what energy and matter is it's a mystery Nobody knows what energy is not a scientist on this planet does they just know how to use it So we go through and we teach people the illusion into the ready for truth and the ready for truth is the abstraction of not knowing So we really don't know what's good and evil. That's the the highest level of awareness All we know is that there's an event that we don't see the benefits to and we're there for labor bad Or we don't see the drawbacks till we label it good But who can if we ask the question and the quadriver life's basically quiet the questions We asked if we ask questions and help us see both sides We're centered again. We're not in the center when we're polarized. We're in the center when we see both sides

Aubrey Marcus [89:38] There there's a lot of beauty in that story So I want to acknowledge you for that I want to acknowledge you for the work that you did in that situation to bring about such a beautiful resolution and There's many aspects of that that I fully am on board with in The Hawaiian Kahuna tradition There's the idea of hope on a pono and everybody thinks of that is those four little phrases you say Thank you. I love you. I forgive you. You know, well, I don't even stop it

Dr. John Demartini [90:03] Forgive me. I go all the way to point just thank you for sure because forgiveness assumes it was something to need to be forgiven

Aubrey Marcus [90:08] Right, okay, so but actually in the deeper teaching the message of hope on a pono is to locate in yourself That thing that you find reprehensible in the other and by locating it in yourself And apply and applying the self internally you apply yourself externally. I think that's beautiful Yes, she was on the cross people are gambling for his garments He says forgive them for they know not what they do. There's beautiful beautiful teachings in that The story didn't answer my question about a actual intentional evil and well, but she but she was projecting She was projecting it was actually intentional evil. I'm not saying what people believe that's that was not my question I understand that she believed that that was absolutely

Dr. John Demartini [90:53] Clearly wasn't picked really showed that whatever somebody's doing in that moment with their perceptions and their content and their past experiences They're making decision based on what they think is going to give them an advantage of a disadvantage in that moment and that may not be fully consciously Agently aware because most of our responses are unconscious most Very few people actually have a conscious awareness 200 milliseconds after they did the act they come up with a bullshit reason why they did it That's not conscious awareness That's an automaton reacting and coming back and back dating the information saying that's why they did it Most people are reacting unconsciously most most behavior

Aubrey Marcus [91:40] When the Zoroastrians were moving across and encountering Different cultures and tribes One of the things that they saw was that one of the rituals being performed where they were boiling children in vats of oil And they came through and they said hey There's a different way that you can do this You can just burn some sticks in the fire and then you don't have to boil any more children To me that is a clear evolution of morality and value. I don't think we should regress back to well If you want to boil children and well, I'm not interested boiling chill I have no desire to boil a child and no and but I'm but the difference is I have a desire to stop people from boiling children

Dr. John Demartini [92:23] Well, that may be so because that maybe you've got a wound in your childhood that basically It's not because I have a wound is because boiling children. Nobody does something without a motive There's a void somewhere in there. You wouldn't be having that because you would you would go on to something else If you're if you're focused on If I see somebody

Aubrey Marcus [92:42] Boiling a child, I'm going to fucking stop it if I see somebody putting a cat in a microwave and about to push start I'm going to fucking stop it. I would probably too, but at the same time and it's not because of some trauma or some pattern Well, because there's because there's value that lives inside of me It's actually intrinsic to the cosmos. I am participating in but then you're saying that somehow they're not intrinsic The person is boiling is not able they're able to there's actual there are forces. They're actually looking to separate us Father Sean O'Lear says evil is a cosmic conspiracy to separate you from no that's dissociation

Dr. John Demartini [93:19] That's just dissociation if you dissociate anytime you put evil out there and good out there and give a Answer to Morphe to make a devil and a answer Morphe can make a savior You just associated yourself from all of you. That's you. That's all you. That's not out there

Aubrey Marcus [93:36] There's no good and bad people out there. They're just people. Yeah, but there's the people who are there's the cat in the microwave And then there's a child in the boiling question is the boiling why is somebody wanting to put in the cat in the microwave?

Dr. John Demartini [93:46] That's what I'd want to know why? Why are they motivated to do that? Why is that an expression of anger? Is that an expression of how they are dealing with things?

Aubrey Marcus [93:56] Could be trauma or it could be that there's I don't know or it could be that there's polarity all the way up and all the way down There's a there's a one-source love and then that splits into polarity and then the polarity splits into the fact that the polarities is a mental construct

Dr. John Demartini [94:10] The mental construct is the awareness of the polarities So we may add we may find out see in causality the universal law of causality is very murky Because we don't know what causes are you know we say well so and so did this but why did they do that? Well because we could say their mother and father were this way and that's why they did it Oh, we could because their mother and father was that way we could go and play murky games all the way back to the original sin It's all murky

Aubrey Marcus [94:34] The question is how do we I would we go back to the original sin that's a nonsense

Dr. John Demartini [94:38] But that's what some people do with causalities And in order to justify why something's good or evil I don't know I can't guarantee that I'm absolutely certain and I can make the moral decision that that's an evil thing If I can find out the other side of that equation I may be able to just transform their lives

Aubrey Marcus [94:57] And if that's a case you're not talking about what's the The actual interference with another person's agency and the creation of fatal levels of extended pain which is what's I'm talking about which would be absolute evil if someone is Slowly taking a cheese grater and grating off someone's skin and getting pleasure out of that situation Knowing that they're here to destroy life because life is beautiful

Dr. John Demartini [95:22] Then if that individual is doing that in order to find and torture somebody to get information that could save a billion lives You're creating a different hypothetical. I know But I'm saying so in that setting that you described it would appear to be evil in your mind But that doesn't mean that that act in every situation is what what and okay?

Aubrey Marcus [95:42] Let's say it's a three-year-old what what special information about nuclear codes is this three-year-old half?

Dr. John Demartini [95:47] Well, you're making again hypothetical. I don't know. I haven't seen anybody Attacks some three-year-old because what do you mean? There's all kinds of attacking a three-year-old for Nuclear codes. That's not probable

Aubrey Marcus [95:58] Right, but I'm saying there's some people who are tortured children. Yes Tortured them. Yes That's evil well, it's torture and the fact is it's not torture

Dr. John Demartini [96:12] It's a specific case of torture. He's doing it this person is doing an act That is perceived with more pain and pleasure or negative than positive in somebody's perspective If I take that child and I've done it god knows how many times if I take that child If you're lucky enough that the child survives if the love if well if it's not I get to work with the family But what about the child? I don't know can you prove that his death is is absolute evil I don't know if it opens up a doorway of opportunity for the family. It may be a gift I've seen that actually happen. I saw I'll give a real case Dallas, Texas a Family calls and said we just had my son get run over and he's dead and We're distraught can we come see you and I said I'm coming to Dallas tomorrow. We'll meet after my speech. We'll meet Mother stays out in the car in the garage. She can't she's too emotional The son and the the father come in there and we asked him a question What is the upside to this situation that your son just got killed? And they said well, how can it be an upside? Well, if you choose only to see the downside they'll never be an upside You'll you'll have to discover it over time, but you could discover it now. What's the upside? And they stopped and they reflected And he said without a doubt is brought our family absolutely Like I've never seen it disclosed and all that since this happened Great what else My son was sitting on the fence in his career about what he wanted to do And we've made a decision that we're going to open up a sausage manufacturing company in the name of my son And our family is this is a family business. We're going to do as a result of this event great And we're going to honor my son as this because this was his dream. We're going to carry it out Great, let's another benefit there My wife Has been overly protective of the son and now she realizes that this this trauma has happened like that She realizes she's been set free because she's been tortured and sleepless nights dealing with the son What's another benefit? Finally, we got enough benefits where they're calm. They're not distraught for a moment Right at that moment the mother comes out of the garage and she comes in and she comes and hugs the husband and she says It's all going to work out now I said what what did what what did realization? I just saw what we're going to do And I feel that that's the gift in the long run for everyone involved And so she saw it from a different perspective and so I look at it and I go yes, he was killed Am I going to say that that's evil? Nope. Am I going to say that that's a perception of loss in the family? Okay, temporarily But in the same moment There's a unification and blessings that come out of that to not focus on that and just make it absolutely bad or wrong or whatever To me it's very very shallow It's much wiser to go and find out how the other side of the equation is and balance the equation and get reasoned again Get out of the emotional labels and generalizations and distortions and highly emotive states which causes illness And get back into reason At Ralph Waldo Emerson said it very greatly in one of his quotes He says we we cry foolishly with people that are in traumas like that instead of hitting him with rough electric shocks and getting him touch with reason again I really believe that that regulate because that family built that manufactured company that picture of her son is on that front of that company His dream is sitting there manifested In that company as a family unified the family Is it evil? I don't know I don't know those answers you may you may think you know you may read a book and tell you it is that's an accident It's not an accident unless you choose to make an accident You say actually have meaning in purpose as Victor Frankl said of course, but but I'm not but you're you're

Aubrey Marcus [100:08] You're mixing up you're trying to ascribe to me that I would call that evil that he got run over

Dr. John Demartini [100:13] No, I'm just saying that the the the idea of death and and I've been saying that the idea of death was evil

Aubrey Marcus [100:19] It's not it's just an event

Dr. John Demartini [100:21] No, but I I agree and the person that ran him over they if they if they did it intentionally is that there's What they call upper motor neuron intention and lower motor known reaction one is violated in morality is stronger because you think you have an intention on it But if we go back to causality, why would somebody do that? What's the what's their experiences that led to that? Is that the cause of why that happened is the cause of those people? It's murky I don't want to go there I'd rather just go in there and find out okay it happened now is let's transform it into something useful now And because otherwise we're going to be trapped and we're going to just label it we're going to blame I'm not seen blame or credit with a devil or Jesus Give people their empowerment I do believe that Using the wisdom of the great teachings of Christianity and some of the things that were taught in there not all of them because there's text have been deleted I believe that some of that is used, but I don't believe that that's You don't want to disempower yourself by thinking somebody out there is going to take care of your problems and somebody over there is causing your problems If you go into credit and blame and not take on accountability and see the order of life I think you're missing out and you're staying in your amygdala and not getting your executive function not using your reason

Aubrey Marcus [101:35] Well, I think actually We did end up going the time that we had a lot of and I first of all I want to say that I was not attacking you at any point. Well, I thought that I was challenging you want to get me up to show I was I was debating you and I have very strong beliefs and I appreciate that you have your very strong beliefs I am not swayed from my beliefs in nor are you swayed from your beliefs and nor and that's okay

Dr. John Demartini [102:00] And that's beautiful. Yeah, I have no idea if you put this on the air doesn't matter and I I sold I'm concerned. I've had I've had a blast chatting with you for sure sure sure sure

Aubrey Marcus [102:09] This is my this is my fun and ultimately I'd love that to be a conversation that where you know We we connect and we look at the show and say like hey, do we want to put this out your show But also I have the I have respect for you and and if this feels this shows good above of us will put out and it what you can put in there

Dr. John Demartini [102:27] Take out I don't get attached. I've done thousand of these things. Yeah, I don't go to just want to let you know that I'll still consider this

Aubrey Marcus [102:35] I'm not going to play a game or anything I'll be collaborative in this process. I look if it will

Dr. John Demartini [102:40] That's just respect dignity. I'm not attached if it will serve your audience to put some of the out up there do it If you don't feel it will I appreciate that do not feel any Need to satisfy me. I ascribe that as noble. I just don't know. Let's just I know you all I know you

Aubrey Marcus [102:55] I know you want your human. I ascribe that to you. This is your show I'm a guest in your show and I think that's noble But I'm not going to I know you won't accept it

Dr. John Demartini [103:06] I'm not just saying I'm not going to I'm not going to pacify my My my my research for any human being on this planet nobody I talked I had the Dalama about cry one time and I had him in debate and I got him And he was caught in his little compassion I told him you're a theologist and you're basically destroyed your country And I even allowed in your country anymore wake up You didn't have any military there to keep yourself from the defense You didn't empower yourself financially and in all I almost every area you were just empowered

Aubrey Marcus [103:34] Yes, but what is a military for if it's all good anyway? Well, if you don't empower yourself in military

Dr. John Demartini [103:39] You're going to be taken over buddy, but what does that matter? Well, it doesn't in the old picture But if the same time you're going to be if you are wanting to express your own individuality You're going to require a mastery of all seven areas of your life Any of your life you don't master you're going to be overmaster overpowered If you don't empower yourself intellectually be told what to think Don't empower yourself mentally or in business you'll be told what to do if you don't empower yourself financially Tell what you're worth don't empower yourself in relationship. You'll be do honeydew crap around the house You don't empower yourself socially you'll be taught to Misinformation dogma you don't empower sufficiently be taken what drugs are taken organs to move You don't have do it spiritually you'll be subordinate to some anthropomorphic geostentric aerostolium platonic presacratic Western view of religion and that is just a small little piece of the bigger picture of the cosmos

Aubrey Marcus [104:26] I agree and I believe that empowerment of the self is good

Dr. John Demartini [104:30] I'm all for that but that requires Nice and mean and even our debates. I like this. This is my favorite. This is one of my favorite to dualities here. This is great. Well, thank you very much. I don't get to do that every time most of time. They're all you know polite, you know That's not where it's at Make people think for sure make people question make people ask questions and stir it up and get them in debate You get there's more views there. Yeah

Aubrey Marcus [104:58] Indeed. Well, I appreciate you. No, thanks. I'll give you hug. All right. Let's go The devil Which is which I'm both So am I actually Thanks for tuning into this video make sure you hit subscribe follow me at Aubrey Marcus Check out the Aubrey Marcus podcast available everywhere and leave a comment Let me know of this video resonated or what else you would like to hear from me in the future. Thank you so much

Dr. John Demartini [105:28] You

The Question at the Heart of the Debate

How do we hold nondual wholeness and ethical discernment at the same time?

What this analysis found

Demartini argues that good and evil are perceptual labels that trap people in victimhood; Marcus argues that some things are simply wrong and demand intervention. The analysis found they were rarely answering the same question — Aubrey kept asking what we do when harm is happening right now, while Demartini kept answering what we do with harm afterward. Both frameworks are coherent within their own time horizon. The problem is neither man could see that the other's tool wasn't wrong — just designed for a different moment.

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Dr. John Demartini

3.5Formal/Systemicreasoning

4.0Pluralisticworldview

What do these labels mean? →

Aubrey Marcus

3.5Formal/Systemicreasoning

4.0Pluralisticworldview

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

He argues that good/evil are perspectival labels arising from partial awareness, and that widening context reveals upsides/downsides in all events. His aim is to dissolve polarization and free people from victimhood through disciplined questioning.

Good-Faith Summary

He argues that even if nondual unity is true, some acts are wrong in a way that demands intervention and enforceable norms. He distinguishes post-hoc meaning-making from the obligation to prevent harm when possible.

4.0Pluralistic

Moral Relativism

3.5Formal/Systemic

Conditioning

4.0Conjunctive

Acceptance

3.5Humanist

Empowerment

4.0Conjunctive

One

Moral absolutes

3.5Social Contract

Agency

3.5Humanist

Discernment

4.0Pluralistic

Victimhood

3.0Social Order

Many

4.0Pluralistic

Epistemic Style

Therapeutic-pragmatic and metaphysical-nondual, supported by anecdotal case evidence and broad systems claims. Treats perspective-expansion as the primary test of truth while offering low-falsifiability “laws.”

Epistemic Style

Moral-intuitive and pragmatic, using vivid edge-cases to test action-guidance and somatic certainty as validation. Can hold “both/and” but closes inquiry when he fears harm-excusing implications.

The Tell

He repeatedly returns to “it’s an event” when moral language is used to demand a universal verdict.

The Tell

He anchors legitimacy in “I know it in my body” when disputing relativizing frames.

Synthesis

He is protecting the need for perspective-widening that dissolves enemy-making, without which trauma and conflict keep reproducing themselves.

Synthesis

He is protecting the need for bright-line intervention thresholds, without which vulnerable people and communities lose the ability to coordinate protection.

Dr. John Demartini

3.5Formal/Systemicreasoning

4.0Pluralisticworldview

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

Moral Relativism

4.0Pluralistic

Conditioning

3.5Formal/Systemic

Acceptance

4.0Conjunctive

Empowerment

3.5Humanist

One

4.0Conjunctive

Epistemic Style

The Tell

He repeatedly returns to “it’s an event” when moral language is used to demand a universal verdict.

Synthesis

He is protecting the need for perspective-widening that dissolves enemy-making, without which trauma and conflict keep reproducing themselves.

Aubrey Marcus

3.5Formal/Systemicreasoning

4.0Pluralisticworldview

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

Moral absolutes

3.5Social Contract

Agency

3.5Humanist

Discernment

4.0Pluralistic

Victimhood

3.0Social Order

Many

4.0Pluralistic

Epistemic Style

Moral-intuitive and pragmatic, using vivid edge-cases to test action-guidance and somatic certainty as validation. Can hold “both/and” but closes inquiry when he fears harm-excusing implications.

The Tell

He anchors legitimacy in “I know it in my body” when disputing relativizing frames.

Synthesis

He is protecting the need for bright-line intervention thresholds, without which vulnerable people and communities lose the ability to coordinate protection.

Highlights

The moments that matter most

Highlight 01

They Argued Different Clocks

Emergency time fought recovery time

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Every debate has a surface argument and a deeper one. This section maps both — what each speaker is explicitly claiming, what they're actually trying to protect, and where their real disagreement lives. Start here to understand what's actually at stake before the analysis begins.

Dr. John Demartini

Demartini’s core claim is that “good” and “evil” are not objective features of reality but human labels produced by partial perception, local culture, and nervous-system valencing. What is real, to him, is the event—and over sufficient time and perspective, every event reveals both upsides and downsides. He frames love (and wisdom) as “the synthesis of opposites” and repeatedly returns to a unity-of-opposites metaphysic: life/death, build/destroy, hero/villain, peace/war are paired and co-arising. From that worldview, moral absolutism is a perceptual narrowing that fuels polarization: the more one takes a side (“I’m right, you’re wrong”), the more one generates the counter-side and perpetuates conflict.

His motivational stake is largely therapeutic and emancipatory: he wants people to stop being “victims of history” and become “masters of destiny” by transforming their perceptions. He is protecting a method (questioning to find the hidden order/benefit) that he believes dissolves trauma, resentment, and reactive violence. He also seems to fear being forced into what he sees as socially approved moralizing that blocks inquiry (“I’m not going to pacify my research for any human being”). When Aubrey presses extreme cases (child torture, murder), Demartini doubles down because conceding “absolute evil” would, in his view, re-legitimize the very black-and-white cognition that traps people and escalates conflict.

His dominant narrative metaphor is alchemy/dialectic: suffering is raw material; wise questions transmute it into meaning, gratitude, and empowerment. He casts himself as a dialectician/mediator (Israel–Palestine story; trauma-case stories) whose job is to widen the frame until the person can see both sides simultaneously. A tension in his enacted position: he sometimes slides from “don’t label” into strong universal claims (“there’s upsides to the murder of children,” “every family has complementary opposites,” “you attract the predator”), which function like absolutes of their own and can sound like moral/causal certainty while he argues against certainty.

Aubrey Marcus

Aubrey’s core claim is that while nondual unity may be metaphysically true (“it’s all the one source”), ethical discernment is still real and necessary at the human level: some actions are wrong in a way that demands intervention (assault, child abuse, torture). He argues for something like perennial or intrinsic values—“a driving force towards life, love, freedom”—that can be felt somatically (“I know it in my body”). From this view, moral language is not merely cultural conditioning; it is part of how humans protect life and reduce suffering. He’s willing to grant complexity after the fact (people can transform trauma into blessing), but he insists that this does not erase the obligation to prevent harm when possible.

His motivational stake is protective and guardianship-oriented: he is defending the legitimacy of moral outrage and the duty to stop predation. He appears to fear that Demartini’s framing—especially in extreme cases—could rationalize abuse, collapse accountability, or discourage intervention (“information that I think is detrimental to the world”). He also seems to fear being accused of naïveté or “black-and-white” thinking, so he repeatedly clarifies that he accepts paradox and nonduality, but not at the cost of ethical action.

His dominant narrative metaphor is the moral immune system / sacred boundary: there is a living moral intelligence in the body and culture that detects violations and mobilizes protection. He uses vivid scenarios (wife assaulted, cat in microwave, boiling children, torture devices) to anchor morality in concrete stakes rather than abstraction. A tension in his enacted position: he sometimes treats his moral intuitions as self-evident proof (“that’s not a perspective… we know”), which can foreclose the very inquiry he also values; and he occasionally shifts between “universal values” and “contextual field of value,” leaving unclear where, exactly, universality ends and situational nuance begins.

Good arguments can still contain weak evidence, logical slippage, or rhetorical moves that substitute for reasoning. This section examines each speaker's argumentative integrity — not to declare a winner, but to identify where the strongest and weakest links are in each case.

Dr. John Demartini

Coherence strengths

Maintains a consistent throughline: moral labels arise from incomplete awareness; widening perspective reveals paired opposites; asking questions restores equanimity and reduces victim-identification.
Offers a clear praxis: transform perception by identifying benefits/downsides, owning disowned traits, and moving from reactive judgment to dialectical inquiry.
Accurately notes a common psychological pattern: people can remain stuck when an event is held as purely negative; reframing can reduce suffering (directionally consistent with many therapeutic approaches, though his specific method claims are not evidenced here).

Weaknesses and logical issues

Epistemic overreach / unsourced empirical claims:
- “I’ve taken probably 150,000 people through…”; “worked with about 1300 cases of pedophilia”; “dissolved the issue… he’s not a pedophile anymore”; “global peace index… 99.7% of the population… 23 parameters…”; “not one year [in 1000 years Europe] hasn’t had war…”; “nobody knows what energy is… not a scientist on this planet does.” These are asserted without citations and are often too sweeping to accept as stated.
Category errors / conflations:
- Moves from “people can find meaning after tragedy” to “there are upsides to the murder of children” in a way that conflates post-event meaning-making with moral evaluation of the act and with net social benefit. This is a major flashpoint: Aubrey is often arguing about prevention/accountability; Demartini is often arguing about interpretation/psychological liberation.
Causal oversimplification:
- “Any area you’re not empowered you’ll be overpowered… to help you become empowered”; “the probability… less likely unless she’s… over protection…”; “the more you try to protect yourself… the more you attract the predator.” These are monocausal or quasi-lawlike claims about complex phenomena (violence risk, victimization) without warranted support, and they risk implying responsibility for harm.
Rhetorical manipulation / motive attribution:
- “Your hands are shaking”; “it’s a fight to you”; implying Aubrey is emotionally reactive and censoring due to belief-threat. Some of this may be observational, but it functions rhetorically to pathologize disagreement rather than address the substance.
Appeal to authority (imprecise):
- Frequent name-dropping (Heraclitus, Aristotle, Buddha, Kohlberg, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, Einstein, William James, Frankl) without careful linkage between the cited work and the specific claims being made.

Epistemic style

Primarily metaphysical-nondual + therapeutic-pragmatic (what reduces suffering) with a veneer of neuroscientific and statistical language.
Uses anecdotal clinical stories as primary evidence, then generalizes them into universal laws.
Treats “seeing both sides” as both an epistemic virtue and an ontological claim about reality.

Aubrey Marcus

Coherence strengths

Keeps a stable distinction between two domains: (1) meaning-making after events and (2) ethical obligation to prevent harm when possible. This is a coherent attempt to “hold both.”
Grounds claims in concrete scenarios to test implications (wife assaulted; train attacker; torture devices), which clarifies what he thinks Demartini’s view would permit.
Acknowledges partial convergence: accepts nondual teachings (Ho’oponopono, “through the eyes of Christ,” post-trauma reframing) while insisting on discernment and intervention.

Weaknesses and logical issues

Overreliance on moral intuition as proof:
- “I know it in my body”; “common sense sacred axiom”; “that’s not a perspective.” This asserts universality without argument beyond shared revulsion, which may not persuade someone operating from Demartini’s descriptive/relativist frame.
Occasional straw-manning / forced implications:
- Presses Demartini as if “no evil” entails “don’t stop the attacker.” Demartini repeatedly says he might stop someone but won’t label it metaphysically evil. Aubrey’s challenge is understandable, but the inference sometimes overshoots Demartini’s stated position.
Factual looseness:
- Mentions “many millions” tortured by the Inquisition; cites a train-attack hero (name uncertain in transcript); claims long-run decline in violence (directionally plausible per some scholarship, but asserted without sourcing here). These are not clearly evidenced in the exchange.
Escalatory rhetoric:
- Uses extreme hypotheticals and graphic imagery; also uses profanity (“I’m going to fucking stop it”), which strengthens moral urgency but can reduce precision and increase defensiveness.

Epistemic style

Moral-intuitive + spiritual teleology (life as intrinsically good; cosmos has value) combined with pragmatic ethics (intervene to prevent harm).
Uses narrative exemplars and somatic certainty as validation.
Attempts a both/and metaphysic, but defaults to deontic language (“obligation,” “ought”) when stakes rise.

Epistemic mismatch note

Demartini treats “proof” as widened perspective, long time horizons, and therapeutic outcomes (plus metaphysical unity); Aubrey treats “proof” as moral intuition, lived embodiment, and the necessity of protective action. They repeatedly talk past each other because one is arguing ontology/epistemology of value-labels while the other is arguing normative ethics and intervention thresholds.

Polarity: Moral Absolutes vs. Moral Relativism

Summary: They clash over whether actions like torture/abuse are universally wrong or context-dependent labels arising from culture, perception, and time horizon. Integration: Universal care, contextual judgment Lever: Time horizon considered

Pole 1 name: Moral absolutes Pole 1 tagline: Some acts are always wrong Pole 1 protects:

Clear protective boundaries against harm
Accountability and shared moral coordination Pole 1 neglects:
Contextual drivers behind harmful behavior
Long-term, mixed consequences of interventions Pole 1 pathology:
Moral certainty that blocks inquiry
Polarization that escalates “enemy” dynamics

Pole 2 name: Moral Relativism Pole 2 tagline: Meaning depends on perspective Pole 2 protects:

Humility about limited knowledge
Capacity to understand causes and reduce reactivity Pole 2 neglects:
The need for firm protective norms
How “no evil” can sound like excusing harm Pole 2 pathology:
Flattening moral distinctions into “just events”
Implicitly shifting responsibility onto victims/perception

Speaker enactment:

Speaker: Aubrey Marcus Enacts: Pole 1 Pole Center line: moral Pole Center: 3.5 Achiever Pole Center rationale: He defends enforceable protective norms and obligation-to-intervene as what keeps society workable, which is moral reasoning organized around outcomes and coordination rather than authority or pure principle. Perspective Structure: 3.0 Expert Perspective Structure rationale: He recognizes the opposing pole but often treats it as dangerously wrong (“not a perspective”), with limited sustained tradeoff-integration beyond “both/and” assertions. Contributes: Keeps ethical lines vivid and action-relevant under real-world stakes. Misses:
- Contextual complexity behind perpetrators
- How certainty can harden conflict Cues:
- “It’s not okay to… sexually assault a child”
- “We have an obligation to… prevent or stop it”
Speaker: Dr. John Demartini Enacts: Pole 2 Pole Center line: worldview Pole Center: 4.0 Pluralist Pole Center rationale: He defends the legitimacy of multiple moral framings across culture/time and treats “good/evil” as perspectival labels, which is primarily a worldview-level pluralization of moral reality. Perspective Structure: 3.5 Achiever Perspective Structure rationale: He can grant situational action and widen context, but under pressure sometimes collapses into universalizing claims (“upsides… yes”) that flatten the polarity rather than holding it. Contributes: Forces perspective-widening and reduces black-and-white judgments that can trap trauma and fuel war. Misses:
- Need for shared moral guardrails
- How language can normalize atrocity Cues:
- “I don’t believe there’s actually evil… it’s an event”
- “Older men and younger girls… in their culture it’s different”

Mismatch: Aubrey argues for universal prohibitions; Demartini hears moralizing that prevents seeing hidden order and perpetuates polarization. Mismatch A→B: When Speaker A says “this is wrong,” Speaker B tends to hear “you refuse to see the other side.” Mismatch B→A: When Speaker B says “it’s an event,” Speaker A tends to hear “you’re excusing or permitting harm.” Bridge move: Separate “metaphysical non-labeling” from “legal/ethical constraints,” and agree on intervention norms while debating ultimate ontology.

Synthesis: Aubrey is protecting the social function of moral clarity: without some stable “do not cross” lines, vulnerable people are left unprotected and communities can’t coordinate against predation. His insistence that certain acts violate something fundamental is a way of defending life, dignity, and the legitimacy of urgent intervention. Demartini is protecting a different but equally real value: the capacity to widen perspective so that trauma does not calcify into lifelong victimhood, and so that conflicts do not become self-perpetuating crusades. His “both sides” frame aims to dissolve contempt and open a path to understanding motives, which can reduce recurrence.

The talking-past dynamic is that Aubrey is mostly asking, “What should we stop, and when?” while Demartini is mostly answering, “How do we metabolize what happened so it doesn’t own us?” Aubrey hears Demartini’s refusal to name evil as a collapse of discernment and accountability; Demartini hears Aubrey’s certainty as the very cognitive narrowing that creates enemies and reproduces violence. Integration becomes more plausible if they treat absolutes as protective operating rules (for law, parenting, immediate defense) while treating relativism as a healing and mediation practice (for understanding causes, preventing cycles, and freeing victims from resentment). A concrete threshold question could be: “Can we agree to intervene to prevent harm, while also refusing to dehumanize the perpetrator afterward?”

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The Crux

The real disagreement isn’t “are there bad things?” It’s what each man most fears will happen if we grant the other’s framing social authority. Aubrey is defending the protective function of moral language: if we stop saying “this is wrong,” we risk losing the shared coordination that lets us intervene when someone is being harmed. Demartini is defending the liberating function of non-labeling: if we keep saying “this is evil,” we risk locking people into enemy-making and lifelong victimhood, which (in his view) reproduces the very violence we’re trying to stop. That’s why the polarity Moral Absolutes vs. Moral Relativism becomes so charged: for Aubrey, relativism sounds like permission; for Demartini, absolutes sound like a cognitive prison.

The missing variable neither of them properly introduced is role-and-timing: who is speaking (a bystander in an emergency, a judge setting norms, a therapist treating trauma, a mediator preventing war) and when (during imminent harm vs. after harm has occurred). Without that variable, they keep treating one tool as if it must govern every domain. Aubrey keeps asking an emergency-room question (“What do we do when harm is happening?”). Demartini keeps answering a rehabilitation question (“How do we metabolize what happened so it doesn’t own us?”). Both are legitimate—just not interchangeable.

The Higher-Order Reframe

A frame neither speaker fully occupied is this: morality is a two-layer technology—coordination first, meaning second. At the coordination layer, “wrong” is not a metaphysical claim; it’s a public safety instrument that lets strangers align quickly around protection (laws, intervention norms, accountability). At the meaning layer, “event” is not an excuse; it’s a psychological and relational instrument that helps people (victims, perpetrators, communities) reduce hatred, understand causes, and prevent recurrence. In other words: the point of moral clarity is to stop harm; the point of nondual widening is to stop the harm from replicating itself inside people and systems. This reframe directly uses the integration handle from the Moral Absolutes & Moral Relativism polarity—“Universal care, contextual judgment”—but it upgrades it into a sequencing rule: care expresses itself as firm boundaries in the moment, and as contextual understanding after the moment.

Made by Corey deVos · About this analysis