Debate Analysis

Nick Fuentes Interview (Ft. Hunter Biden)

Channel: Channel 5 with Andrew Callaghan

Primary speakers:Hunter BidenNick Fuentes

Hunter Biden: You said you want to ask me, why are you a Nazi? Inclusion has been our greatest strength. Diversity has been our greatest strength. White people do feel like we are being boxed out. A 26 year old white kid doesn't feel like he has access because he's been canceled in the problem is black people. I didn't say the problem's black people. Well, you just did, Nick. You just said... I said the problem is crime.

Nick Fuentes: And we know who's doing the crime in Chicago. Do you get what I'm saying? Yes. About the Holocaust things. Oh, about that. We get to say whatever we want on the internet. We get to deny the Holocaust. As far as Jews are concerned in general, I think that everybody in the country should be treated with dignity and respect and have their civil rights. Look, what do you think about somebody like Mom Donnie? Personally, I don't like him. Like, for example, on 4th of July, when he takes the opportunity to sit there with, let's be honest, not a single white person.

Hunter Biden: What about fucking Donald Trump? There's no ideological court Donald Trump? No, I agree with you. Donnie, you're got the largest loan ever given by the Department of Defense.

Nick Fuentes: Vance owes his entire political career to Peter Teal, whichever firm is the one to develop ASI, that could confer dictatorial-like powers upon the CEO of that company.

Hunter Biden: Everything that we think about the way in which we exist in the world completely changed it.

Nick Fuentes: Increasingly, with Uber, Airbnb, banking apps, you can't live your life without the tech platform.

Hunter Biden: Everything that AI's built on is ours. That's what they're stealing from us. I want to find common ground of how much of a shithead Donald Trump is. We can get there, OK?

Andrew Callaghan: The first question that I had whenever I caught when that you wanted to do an interview like this is why now, what made you want to sit down for this kind of interview?

Nick Fuentes: Well, I think it's an interesting conversation to have all of us here. And I think it's a moment in our country when there's a lot of realignment. I think that people recognize, especially in the past couple of years, I'm like a non-conventional critic, maybe, of what's happening. And so I think it'll be an interesting productive conversation. I think it'll be different.

Andrew Callaghan: But I mean, specifically, because we kind of share a publicist, I heard that you wanted to kind of clear up. OK. We have a publicist that you hit up. And you said that you wanted to talk to someone who would give you kind of a fair shot to clear up some things and maybe some misconceptions about you and the things you believe.

Nick Fuentes: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think that I'm somebody who, I think, like you, actually, maybe we have this in common, is kind of pigeonholed in a certain way for things that we've done in the past or things that we've said. I'm a crackhead.

Hunter Biden: But I'm racist, right? I got a pigeonhole there. Mine is true, yeah.

Nick Fuentes: Mine's a little true, maybe a little, no. But yeah, so I think it'd be good to clear up some of the misrepresentations and put out something accurate.

Andrew Callaghan: So what do you think is the most misrepresenting thing about you?

Nick Fuentes: Well, I think really the whole image everybody has about me. When you mentioned me, I think on a recent show, you said you want to ask me, why are you a Nazi? And that's how everybody knows me. Everybody thinks of me as white supremacist Nazi. And I don't think that's really true at all. I think that we definitely have different values. I mean, you're more from the left. I'm more from the right. But I don't think I'm a hater. I'm not a hateful person. It is Hyal Hitler Friday. F**k up. Hyal Hitler. All my f**k is Nazis. Morgan Wittler. Hitler was very f**king cool. Yes, I do.

Andrew Callaghan: And I'm tired of pretending he's not. So what's the thing about, I guess, traditional Nazis that you think you disagree with the most?

Nick Fuentes: Well, it's a non-Christian ideology. So, I mean, look, I believe that race is real as the Nazis did. But I don't think it utterly defines a person. As a Christian, I think, we're all creative beings. I do believe there's such a thing as a universal human community. And so I think it's a cruel ideology. I've said this on my show, by the way. But I mean, that would maybe be the fundamental. Did you always show that way? Always, yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Callaghan: So even whenever you were younger and stuff?

Nick Fuentes: I did. But, you know, you got to recognize times of change. 10 years ago, we had a totally different political world. The regulation and policing of speech. You know, what you would call wokeness, I think, was at an all-time high when I got started. As a very young man.

Hunter Biden: Wait, what would you would call wokeness?

Nick Fuentes: Yes. Well, and I think, I mean, would you not say there were some excesses maybe in those days?

Hunter Biden: Yeah, you know, in those days that I wasn't doing too well. So I wasn't paying much attention. Anyway, I would love to hear, and I'm not asking you to like, retract everything that you've ever said and all that, you know, or anything. But I said that I would love to talk to you because number one, I told you this, is that I think you're really smart. And I think that with that comes in a real responsibility. And you have an audience. And I have a friend whose son is my daughter's age, you know, maybe 28, you know, your age. And he's really smart. And he is a big fan of yours. And so by virtue of the relationship, I got to learn what it is that he, why he is a fan of yours. And none of it has to do with, I would hope you agree, like really egregious things that you've said in the past about the Holocaust or about, you know.

Nick Fuentes: Did the Jews ever talk about the 100 million whites that died in World War II? Or do they just bitch and moan about the so-called 6 million Jews that died? And so it's just nice to poke holes in it and say, it's not 6 million. 6 million? I don't think so.

Hunter Biden: And I don't even know. I think I've heard you since kind of rescind a lot of that.

Nick Fuentes: You can see that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Possibly more. Possibly we, you know, we're discovering all the time. So it could maybe even be more than that.

Hunter Biden: But what he agrees with is kind of the anger, the anger about the situation that particular your generation finds yourself in. I know that to be real. And I think that they're, you know, maybe my reasons for recognizing that anger is being legitimate and my targets are different than yours. I just wanted to hear from you. When you say you're canceled, you're canceled by the right in 2016. Yes. I almost felt like in preparing to meet you now is that your reaction to that was to just dig deeper and deeper into kind of the outsider kind of radical say anything for the purpose of generating, you know, the attention to building an audience. Is that true? And it's not an accusation. I really mean it. I want this to be a conversation as much as possible.

Nick Fuentes: I mean, that's, there's certainly some truth to that. But I think that might be overstating it a little bit because I really got canceled by the right and the left. Yeah. And back in those days in 2017, you had these far left journalists at Huffington Post, right wing watch, ADL, SPLC. And I really believe they were on a mission to find extremist rhetoric, the white nationalist neo-Nazi boogie man, all that kind of stuff. And they would look at someone like myself 18. And if I was being serious or joking, things taken out of context, they would clip it, post it, and they wanted me to be the villain. And I think they wanted a lot of people to be the villain. I think the left in a way kind of created this climate where I think they pushed a lot of people farther to the right.

Hunter Biden: No, by the way, that's very well, maybe true. But you gain a lot of ammunition. That's true. I mean, I hope that some of those things that you said in the past are not things that you believed in that are, you meant just to engender like a really radical kind of response. I mean, is that true or not?

Nick Fuentes: Well, you know, again, I think that back in those days, you could not say anything in 2017, 2018. Cancel culture was so an overdrive. Any joke, any edge lording, anything like that, they would, first of all, there's no sense. See, I'm so old, I don't know.

Andrew Callaghan: Okay, with the break it down for you, so the dawn of wokeness as it's known today, I think was in like the post Trump era, after Trump won the election in 2016, there was a big movement to de-platform and kind of push away those who, I guess the left feel like had galvanized them into the presidency. So there was this big idea that if you push people off mainstream social media platforms, they would go away. Now we know through Trump's reelection, that's not even true. But at the time, that was the mantra. Problematic viewpoints needed to be silenced, tucked away somewhere, and they would just sort of die in isolation. So I think that that was the climate where you first got started 2017. That time period was like crucial for getting people off mainstream platforms. Is that correct?

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, and I would say that you got to get into the psychology of those days. It felt like anybody that wasn't on board with the most progressive agenda had no options. There was just no alternative. It was going to be progressive, liberal, feminist, BLM, all that kind of stuff. And if you were to the right of John McCain, you're no platformed, censored, banned from all the platforms, you're fired from your job, you're ostracized socially. And I think what happened really in 2021, when Trump got banned from the platforms, is it felt like 70 million people got canceled. 70 million people had voted for Trump, or 60, 70 million people, we were all felt like, oh, so if Trump is out of politics and we're all banned from the platforms, then how is there any redress for our grievances? Do we just have to shut up and get with the program and we're all going to be progressive? And I think that that drove people to a far more radical place, where people said, well, what really is a solution? We can't talk, we can't express ourselves. We can't participate in the process or run for office. And I was one of the people saying that's exactly what's going to happen. It's going to drive people to extremism. If you don't talk, if people don't feel like they have a seat at the table and in franchisement, I think then they start exploring options outside the system, outside of the political process, the democratic process. So I think it self-inflicted in many ways.

Andrew Callaghan: So you feel like after the Massey platforming in 2021, whenever people on the right got pushed to platforms like parlor, gab, rumble, et cetera, the lack of discourse and like the political singularity of those platforms created more extremism.

Nick Fuentes: Absolutely, absolutely, because look, you take Trump off of Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and I predicted this in 21, I said, watch, you're going to see alternative social media rise because some venture capitalists are going to see there's a huge market of 70 million people that are going to follow Trump, because Trump is no platformed. And that's exactly what happened. Rubble blew up, Elon bought Twitter, and what happened when you had total free speech on these platforms? Well, Twitter now resembles 4chan. And now, you know, there's no gatekeepers. And I think it did push people in a radical direction. And honestly, people are even blowing past me. Now there's like mainstream, normy types that are even blowing past me in terms of how radical they are. People start saying things like, there's no political solution, there's going to be a civil war, we need a revolution. And I think that's because the message from the left was, you're crushed. You have no options, you can't win. There's no alternative. Trump is going to be indicted and charged and can't run. You can't be on Twitter, you can have a job. And so people started to say, okay, well, you know, we still exist. We're still here, we still have these concerns. What do we do now? And then people start to say, well, we need a revolution. And I'm one of the only people saying, no, we should still engage in the process and talk with each other. And it's not all one sided. I think there's problems on the left and the right, but I certainly think it takes two to take.

Hunter Biden: Okay, so there, we agree. I think that there are problems on the left and the right. And I don't disagree with some of the things that you just said. I guess it just came to a different conclusion that there are some things that people should be de-platform for. Not that they can't say it, where they want to say it, but I think that it's a right of anybody. Okay, top three things, what do you think? There's a difference between being able to say that you're proud of your white heritage and also being just a flat-out racist. I think that there's a difference between saying, you're proud of your Christian heritage and the white culture from what you come from and Nazis. Or that you adopt the Naziism as a legitimate ideology. I think that there's a difference between saying that you disagree with the United States policy as it relates to Israel and saying that the Holocaust didn't exist.

Nick Fuentes: Now it's like, mom, dad, Hitler was awesome. Hitler was right, and Holocaust didn't happen. And my parents were like, we cannot believe.

Hunter Biden: Those would be top three things in my mind. I know that you believe that some people took you out of context, and I do agree. Look, I'm both the right and the left. There are these gatekeepers, 100%. And look at me, mainstream press just destroyed me for seven years without any real reflection about what they were doing. I do think that some of those things are legitimate reasons to say, we don't want you on a commercial platform. Would you agree with that? You just said, for instance, people calling for an armed revolution, like people calling for actual violence. You're opposed to it. Oh, absolutely.

Nick Fuentes: I'm against violence, and I do think those are one of the legitimate things that should be taken from the platform. There's a lot of this stuff on social media I don't agree with, but again, what started to happen is there was this editorial censorship where certain ideas were banned. And they just, it was such a broad brush, and also totally opaque and ad hoc. You'd be on YouTube, like I was, for example, they banned me for life and didn't even get me a reason. Not a specific quote, not a specific infraction, and so you don't know what the rules are. You don't know what the process is. They just take you down, and especially now, when everything is digital. That's not just the social platforms. It's the other ones like Uber, Airbnb, whatever. It feels like you're being denied almost something like a civil right. These, the social platforms are the modern public square. Increasingly with Uber, Airbnb, the banking apps, you can't live your life without the tech platforms. And it felt like if you just simply had the wrong opinions, or you were the wrong kind of person, you were being deprived of like a basic civil right or being able to participate in society. So, you know, and I think maybe that's an area of collaboration where we recognize maybe it is a civil right to use the digital platforms, but here are the rules. Here's what you can say. Here's what you can't say. Here's the process. Maybe there's a reconciliation mechanism, but I mean, the censorship was just out of control. I don't think anyone disagrees. There's a reasonable limit though.

Hunter Biden: Yeah, no, I guess what I was saying is that I don't see that as a result of left wing or right wing ideology. I view that kind of level of de-platform. Look, I was debanked. I was debanked before I was ever even charged with anything. I lost every bank account. It took me nine months once they, you know, the Trump administration, you know, said that they were starting an investigation into me to be able to actually get a bank account again. And I still don't want to tell you the bank because tomorrow they make you bank me again. But my point is, is that those people are incredibly identifiable. I keep, like I've been talking and going around and I say things like, I don't think we are nearly as divided as they're telling us we are. Because I do believe that there is, there are an identifiable group of people that are responsible for an enormous amount of the discordant division because they make money off of it. I think that these social media companies that are controlled by what, three, four, five, you know, individuals have made clear that they only care about one thing. They only care about how much money they can produce for themselves and, you know, the people that hold stocks in their company. Even to the degree where we know for certain that they're driving teenage girls to the highest levels of suicide by a factor, like exponential factors, directly related to the content that they're being pushed and they won't do anything about it, right? And so, to the same degree, I think they, you know, a lot of what you call wokeness was a, maybe an illegitimate, but a financial decision based on a lot of these corporate side-off, maybe. Corporate side-off. Thank you. I mean, by the way, exactly, you know, I mean.

Andrew Callaghan: I just wanted to make up real quick. So you talked about certain people going too far, about two and a half months ago, I visited a white's only community in Hardy, Arkansas. And I don't know why, I guess coming from like a more like left wing place, I'm from Seattle, I kind of assumed there was like a united front on the right for some reason. So I'm out there, I'm chilling with these dudes, they're like sword fighting, having barbecues. It was, I mean, the overall was a good time for them. I had a hard time connecting with them because I don't agree with them, but it's all good. I was having fun for a couple of days. And then like right as I was there, I guess you had hit them up on an X or something and said like, hey, I don't wanna associate with you guys. What happened there?

Nick Fuentes: Well, that was really more of a personal disagreement with the guy that founded it. But I do think it's an interesting project, and it's interesting that that got so much pushback, this white's only community because you know what? If you go to a lot of these different neighborhoods in major cities, there are ethnic enclaves. And it's not like there's an explicit rule that you have to be a certain ethnicity, but we all know in Chicago, in New York, in LA, you've got certain neighborhoods where it is, 80, 90% one ethnicity. And I think there's a lot of white people that say, we kinda want something similar. I don't think there's anything.

Hunter Biden: For next one, let's just talk about it. One, okay, let's back up.

Andrew Callaghan: If you wanna talk about the histories of New York and Chicago, I feel like that was also a conscious decision that was made like after the Civil Rights Act.

Hunter Biden: I tell you what, a black's only, it's in Cabrini Green, where Mayor Daley made everybody that was black, living the Cabrini Green. I mean, it wasn't by choice. It's not by choice that these ethnic enclaves are 80 or 90% whatever that ethnicity is, it's because that's the only place in which they had an opportunity to live unbothered, or where they were told that they had to live, because of the historical fact that they could not move into other neighborhoods. You could not move into parts of South Chicago without being stoned, literally, right? And so it's not as if those ethnic enclaves are there by choice. And so that...

Andrew Callaghan: Also, ethnic enclaves do exist for like specific variations of different Europeans. Like, you know, there is places that are chocked, like South Philly is full of a time.

Hunter Biden: There's little Italy, and there's little crap.

Andrew Callaghan: I think the issue, what I always, like, that what confused me the most about the white's only community is like, there's just so many different kinds of white people in America. You know, so like to establish a unified white culture, with a place so diverse and full of like, different regional flavors, just kind of felt confusing to me. Because that can mean a different thing, depending on what part of the country, what European enclave you originated from. Like, where Irish people from the Philly area. Can you compare that to like, you know, surfers in San Diego, or even like, you know, Italian Americans in Staten Island? I don't know, everything just feels so different. So when I got there, I was trying to identify what they meant by white culture. It wasn't really based on shared, like, cultural practices, but more the exclusion of people who weren't white. So they weren't like stoked on being European necessarily. They were more just like, oh, we're here because those people aren't here. So it just kind of felt more negative than constructive.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm not really involved with that project in particular, but I think that, look, I mean, you talk about the anger that's out there in the frustration. I think part of the frustration, let's be honest, is that white people do feel like we are being boxed out in major cities in the country. And it feels like, look, there's a little Haiti and there's these various ethnic enclaves where you get that local culture and they do their, you know, cultural festivals and that sort of thing. And white people feel like they're being pushed out and they want a space where things are familiar.

Hunter Biden: Do you feel the same way about the Italian festival that happens in every city? Well, here's a good example. So, or say Patrick's Day?

Nick Fuentes: Well, you know, there's no Irish neighborhood in Chicago. Little Italy. Sure there is. I mean, there's some remnant and rich poor, yeah.

Andrew Callaghan: It's important to note that, like, and I'm not trying to get into, like a shouting match here, but like, you know, as a family who did, coming from a family who didn't leave Philadelphia in the 60s because of black migration from the South after the Silver Rights Act was passed, there was a sort of like mass flight of white people into the suburbs and that kind of led to a homogenization of different cultures because they rush so fast to build these identical strip mall suburbs that it was very hard to maintain cultural bonds that made different European and white neighborhoods unique around like the 1950s and before. So, I feel like the mass suburbanization is also a big factor that led to those, like, cultural bonds breaking.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, but why did that happen? I mean, a lot of the suburbanization is because of the race riots in the 1960s, people moved out because of the violence. You know, my grandfather was in the National Garden, Chicago when after MLK got assassinated, the whole West Sideburn to the ground. And people didn't want to be around that. Why were the riots? Yeah, MLK, Jr. was assassinated. Yeah. Yeah. And so does that justify burning down the city?

Hunter Biden: No, I don't say it's just a phrase. But it sure justifies an enormous amount of the anger, the same kind of anger that you feel about being left out, the same kind of anger that you're expressing right now about the idea that you culturally irrelevant, that you don't have a place in society. Imagine if you were a 26 year old black man in 1968 and saw your hero be assassinated. I want to be done with that.

Nick Fuentes: I saw Trump get shot in the air and did he? And I saw Charlie Kirk get shot and I didn't see any cities get burned down. It's funny.

Hunter Biden: I think it's a very, very, very different thing. I think it's absolutely very different.

Nick Fuentes: Charlie Kirk got shot in the neck. Yeah. And liberal celebrated all over social media by Tyler Robinson. Yeah. Who is what? Who is some liberal guy?

Hunter Biden: He is. Mm-hmm. He's got a transgender boyfriend. So that makes him liberal? Because he's transgender, because he's gay.

Nick Fuentes: Well, because he's got a transgender boyfriend, yeah. I think so. It makes him liberal. I think he was liberal, yeah.

Hunter Biden: OK. Well, he didn't come from a liberal family. He didn't come from a liberal enclave. He didn't come from a liberal background. He's not a minority. He was a Mormon, correct? And grew up at a Mormon household. And he went to a largely Mormon college. And he ended up committing an act of violence according to the FBI and the authorities in Utah that charged him. How does that, in any way, compare to what we're talking about? I'm not justifying the violence that occurred after the death of Martin Luther King. But you're saying that that person, this Tyler, whoever his name is, was disenfranchised as the African-American community in 1968 in inner cities? Well, the question is who we want to live around.

Nick Fuentes: I'm not living around blacks. Sorry. I want white kids. And I don't want my white kids bringing home black people to marry. And in the 1960s, the West Side burns down. We don't want to live around that. We don't want to live around a city that's not what happened.

Hunter Biden: That's not when the white flag happened. It is. It was a big response to it, absolutely. 100% not. Absolutely. You make these historical connections that don't exist. Part of it was potentially. But before that, what Mary Daley did is made Chicago the most segregated city in the entire United States, other than Boston. When you would come from the South to Chicago, African-Americans from the South, blacks in the South, coming to Chicago would say that Chicago was twice the level of segregation and racism that occurred in the South. And so it wasn't as if you're coming into a situation in which you're feeling in any way enfranchised by the community and the situation that you're in. And as many people left simply because of the idea that someone was black moving into their neighborhood as the violence that occurred after the assassination of Martin Luther King. So the numbers actually pre-1968 when King was shot, you had more people leave the city because of the desegregation, because of the 1964 Civil Rights Act than you did after the riots.

Nick Fuentes: I think that's just not true. I think that the race riots were a huge driver of white flight to the suburbs. I think it's just dishonest to say that's not the case.

Hunter Biden: Okay, so what's your point about all of this?

Nick Fuentes: Well, we're talking about where people want to live.

Hunter Biden: Yeah, I know. So like in 2026,

Nick Fuentes: well, okay, how about in 2020, when Minneapolis burned to the ground, or how about in the summer of 2020 in Chicago? Minneapolis didn't burn to the ground.

Hunter Biden: It didn't? No. I mean, there would be a part of the destroyer.

Andrew Callaghan: If you guys need a physical witness to what happened in Minneapolis, there were many structures that burned to the ground. Not the city, but there was, I would say, between 40 to 50 buildings off of Lake Street in the south side that did burn to the ground. But the most of the city was intact, but it was quite an intense situation.

Nick Fuentes: People don't want to live around that. People don't want to live around that. You know, in Chicago, it rolled on into the summer and it wasn't, you know, let's say the anger of the oppressed and the disenfranchised. So these were looting.

Hunter Biden: They were looting in car testing. The criminals. Are you saying that the problem with the 26 year old white kid living in in suburbia outside of Chicago, and his feeling of being disenfranchised is because there was looting and rioting in Minneapolis by black people. And it's black people that are doing it.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah. The problem with Austin Metcalfe was that he got stabbed and that could attract meat. And the problem with our city in Chicago was that the magnificent mile is gone. And the part of our place is gone because of all the crime.

Hunter Biden: Nick, in the time of the entire generation of African-Americans is that they've been getting killed by cops for decades. What are you talking about, Nick? Listen, commit crime. And listen, listen, it's not. Nick, what? It's not true. It's not true. Are you saying the police brutality as it relates to racism in the police force in the way in which police treat African-Americans? Nick, you could grow up here like I did between Momikin and Philadelphia. And if you are a black dentist and you lived in Momikin and you commuted to Philadelphia, the chances of you being pulled over by a state trooper, either Delaware or in Pennsylvania, are about 50 times that would be if it was a white guy. 50 times. And so what you're trying to tell me is that the problem in America right now is that a 26-year-old white kid who lives in suburban Chicago doesn't feel like he has access because he's been canceled or he's been woke and the problem is black people. I didn't say the problem's black people. Well, you just did, Nick.

Nick Fuentes: You just said that. The problem is crime. And we know who's doing the crime in Chicago. The car jackings, shootings, team takeovers. We know why there's no business on the mag mile anymore. And it's because they steal cars, they drive them through windows and listen. Black people are some of the biggest victims of the black crime. Well, we're not allowed to talk about it because of the racial dimensions.

Hunter Biden: We should be not allowed to talk about it. We're talking about it right here. You have a platform with millions of people listening to you, Nick.

Nick Fuentes: I think so. Well, after Elon had to buy Twitter and open it up. It wasn't like that before. I was banned from everything for many years. So no, you weren't allowed it. You're right. We can talk about it now, but that's only because a good guy's won.

Andrew Callaghan: Hey, and what's up, guys? There's something I forgot to tell you about. We also just launched our own streaming platform called c5.now. We have five films on there right now. Film number one, the art of protest. Maybe by the homies over at Indicline. We interviewed a few months back. Film two, rat film by Theo Anthony, set in Baltimore, investigates the lives and times of the rodent population through the eyes of the people who love the rats of Baltimore, study the rats of Baltimore, or are paid to execute and trap the rodents of charm city. Documentary number three, starcash by Haley Garrigas, an amazing Wall Street documentary that follows the lives of market predictors. That's right, it's stock analysts who stare at the planets to figure out what's going to happen with the money. Documentary number four, it's called Physician of Heal Dice Self by director Asher Penn, a fascinating lifelong profile featuring tons of archival footage, documenting a physician, psychiatrist, philosopher, sorcerer of the mind, named Godwormat, very influential dude, as far as addiction and trauma and healing, he's about as good as it gets. He's the top dog in that realm. So check that documentary out. Documentary number five is my own, had to put my own sauce on there to get the train moving. It is called Finding Orson, a 45 minute documentary that I shot over the course of a year and a half, trying to reunite a beloved friend and elderly community member named Rick Shore with his lost parrot named Orson. Maybe he's just too embarrassed to admit that he doesn't want the bird anymore. So those are the five films on c5.now. A totally independent, creator residual forward, power to the people documentary platform, not gate kept by Hollywood. And what's unique about c5.now is that unlike the major studios, we're not afraid to take a risk and of course pay creators fairly. The link is in the pinned comment and description box of this video. And most importantly, it's not just a website. It's an app on your phone and a smart TV app. So get your popcorn, get your remote, sit down. It's time to learn. I'll see you guys soon. See you guys soon.

Hunter Biden: You went from being banned on Twitter to being on YouTube to creating an attention. I know you're not, but now you have kick and now you have all of these other things. You have an enormous platform. I want to find common ground of how much of a shit head Donald Trump is. We can get there. True. I don't, what I don't understand is how you didn't recognize that in 2016, how you didn't recognize that in 2020, and how you didn't recognize that in 2024. Because Donald Trump hasn't changed. Donald Trump hasn't changed at all. Donald Trump has been Donald Trump since he came out of the womb of a woman that was an immigrant to this country. And so what I wanna know though, is that I don't know how we get past this idea that the biggest problem that you have, that with your personal situation, and how you extrapolate that to the situation of other white kids that are your age, that feel disenfranchised, that feel left out, that feel they don't have a shot at the American dream, is because of black and brown people, of because of Mexicans, because of Venezuelans, because of Haitians, because of, it's always other Nick with you. It seems to me, and I've listened to a lot of the stuff. It's always them. We need to build a wall. Where's the wall, Nick? He never built a wall. Why'd you vote for him in 2020? Why'd you vote for him in 2024? I didn't vote for him in 2024, okay. My point being, is that whenever you identify your problem as being something that is other, that you can point to, that's a minority, that is a group of people, that's the Jews, it's the, I mean, before, remember, all of us, it was the Irish Catholics, who all are committing the crime, who weren't allowed into bars, who weren't allowed into, because you know why? Because they were dirty, poor, non-Europeans, they were Irish. Every time it's wrong, every time history is proven that that to be wrong in the United States of America. Every time. Inclusion has been our greatest strength. Diversity has been our greatest strength. And I hear you talk about this idea of white culture, what fucking white culture you're talking about, man? What literally, what?

Nick Fuentes: Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, weren't Philadelphia, the founding fathers. Yeah.

Hunter Biden: That's your white culture. How about the time of Monte Cristo? Would you consider that part of our white culture? Sure. Okay. Well, it was written by a black man in France in 1700. In a milieu of European civilization. So what? Because you're picking out one example. It really is. It really is. It really is. That's, listen. Nick, I'm not.

Andrew Callaghan: I really am not. Hey guys, I think we're reaching what's called a rock in a hard place. Let's talk about it in real life.

Hunter Biden: Let me respond to this, because you're telling me I'm always blaming the other. No, no, Nick, for real, for real. Here's the thing, is that the way that you talk and throw out these historical facts, which, by the way, aren't fucking facts. Okay. Which ones are our facts? As it relates to the Civil Rights Movement in 1968 and the reason why we are on the problem that we're in is because the Civil Rights Act had passed in 1964, Dr. Martin Luther King was killed and shot by a white racist, white supremacist in 1968 on a balcony of a motel. That's the root of our trouble because an entire people that have been disenfranchised and enslaved for over 400 years. We're sick of hearing about that though. It's 2026. You may be sick of hearing about it, but you know what? They aren't. And I'll tell you what, Nick. Here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. It's America. But, Nick, you keep, you can say stuff like that. Okay, without having to say it like that. And we, look, this is not how it started though. This is a legitimate argument, but it's,

Andrew Callaghan: oh, Nick. Guys, Nick, Hunter, what do you guys make of the concept of community collapse? Have you guys heard of this? No. So it's got none to erase, it's got none to do with money, but this is kind of a crazy stat. So in 2019 before COVID, 76% of Americans said they were a part of an in-person community that gave them some kind of value. After COVID, and this year, it was 19%. So I think that politics and race aside, one of the biggest issues is the collapse of social bonds, third spaces, communities in-person engagement, which comes with loneliness, more time online and more division. I understand that I felt you guys aren't going to agree. I want to talk about what you guys think can be done on an individual and community level to stop people from hating each other and to create more belonging and engagement.

Hunter Biden: Well, number one, I take this, okay, for real. Podcasting. No, not podcasting. This discussion, for me to be able to sit down with someone who I so vehemently disagree with and find some kind of common ground.

Andrew Callaghan: I mean, the guy at home, who's watching us on his phone just thinking, I wish I could go outside. I don't know anyone.

Hunter Biden: Okay, well, here's what I'm talking about. It's all about connection. It is all about actually connecting with people. And I'm not talking about digitally connecting with people anonymously online. I'm talking about actually going out and connecting with people. And I don't have an answer to that. I don't any of us. We are in a, look man, I just think that you are targeting the wrong problem, Nick. I think that our biggest problem right now doesn't have to do with this cultural divide or racial divide or religious divide or the idea that America is becoming less white or culturally relevant anymore. I think our biggest problem is, is literally an oligarchy that is inflaming every single division that we have. And the goal is. And they're out for you, man. Just as much as anybody else. Why not? These platforms that we talk about, that you're not allowed to be on because Elon's on the platform. Elon doesn't give a shit about anything other than one thing. Money. Real quick.

Nick Fuentes: Money is his money. I don't necessarily even agree with that. Okay, well you may not agree with that. Because you don't want to piss off your mother. Elon doesn't even like me. But I just disagree.

Andrew Callaghan: You're talking about the oligarchy, right? Like these billionaires, right? Like the goal of corporate capture of these industries is community collapse. They are trying to engineer things to make it anti-social. They want to eliminate every single small business. They want to make everyone a single person shopper, no carpooling, like to be a lonely consumer who only buys things for themselves online and doesn't talk to anyone in real life. That's what they want in real life. Like all this data center shit, like everything they're doing is in a way trying to break up in person engagement. And I feel like for you guys, might be hard to answer because both you guys are what they call like controversial public figures. Like there's places that you, like in 2018, if you were to go to a dive bar and let's say popular bluff Missouri, you would have been in danger. You know what I mean at that time. For you, you were in danger physically in a left wing city. It's just just the truth. So I feel like you guys have been deprived of the ability to have normal lives. You especially, you know what I mean? You in general, but if like, you know, your controversy came a little bit later in life. For you, I feel like you haven't even able to grow up as a normal person. Is that accurate to say?

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, that's true. Well, and in terms of, you know, building community back and everything like that, you know, the data says that really the loss of society is the fact that we don't encounter people anymore. For example, on your way to work or, you know, in ways that are unexpected. People wake up in their house, which is separate from everybody else. They get in their car by themselves, drive to work by themselves. You know, and then they meet with their colleagues and everything, but then they go right home. Go home, have a beer, watch Netflix until they go to bed. Next day starts all over again. And so, you know, I think it has a lot to do with maybe how we structure the cities. I think honestly a big part of it, there's like this abundance mindset with liberals, liberals want to have prosperity and everything like that. How can you have that when the cities are not safe? I think that one of the ways, for example, if you want to have those encounters that are unplanned or spontaneous, they're going to happen maybe on the subway, on the bus, on your way to work. People don't want to ride the subway anymore. People don't want to ride the bus.

Andrew Callaghan: They have to feel that, if you look at the data like right now, 2026, I think 2025 had the lowest homicide rate of any year in America for like the past four years. I feel like if you compare data from the 90s, like the cities, I get what you're saying, but the cities I have noticed are a lot safer. They're also, you know, becoming more expensive

Hunter Biden: is like going to something to do with it. You're absolutely right. And it's really, what you're saying that is impossible to refute, right? Because everybody has an experience with violence or witnessing crime or whether it's just in their local newspaper or not. Is it, I don't think that is anyway limited to only urban environments. I take the top 10 poorest red states in the country and their crime rates are 10 times what many urban centers are.

Andrew Callaghan: So you'd be comparing West Virginia, a cold country, disenfranchised to like an urban neighborhood, basically.

Hunter Biden: Yeah, in terms of per capita crime, in terms of per capita murder, in terms of per capita child sexual abuse, yeah. I think the things that people really care about, you know, things like that is their own personal safety. It is not limited to African-American urban or Latino-American urban environments. I know it's not that it exists. Carjackings do happen, but you know where they happen? They happen in Bluxy, Mississippi, just as much as they happen in Chicago. I'm skeptical of that.

Andrew Callaghan: I mean, I just think the idea of like safety, like safety at risk, crime is no, I feel like media has overblown the level of danger.

Hunter Biden: You know, everybody's gonna fact check both of us on this. And I, but I agree with you, is that, but my point about it all of it is though, is that you can always point to a reason, Nick. There's never been a time in which there hasn't been crime in major urban areas where you pack a lot of people in. You're right though, is that the difference between us feeling like each other are neighbors and that we can find some common ground, is the fact, you know, you could live in existence now by the time you're 56 years old and never really have to leave your house to make a living, to, you know, you don't go to the community center anymore. And I don't know how to fix that. And I certainly don't know how to fix that.

Andrew Callaghan: And I think it's back to politics, right? Because community is like an essential human need. If not the most important thing. So when you are deprived of that, you're more likely to look for a radical solution. And be like, everything's broken, we need to try something really out there. So you might embrace something more reactionary on left or right to be like, fuck this, you know, we need something new. And so, and I'm not trying to draw this like male loneliness, like in cell pipeline that the media tries to do all the time. But do you see a connection there between like people being lonely and having less friends and self-cultural choice, taking over community value systems or community engagement and people just like driving to the extreme?

Nick Fuentes: 100%. I think social dislocation is probably the number one problem of our times. Because you look at the young people and you're right, it is one of those essential human needs is to connect and have that sense of familiarity, to really to be seen, to see and to be seen. And that's something young people don't have. And I think by the way, you look at the way young people socialize and even the mentality, I think a lot of young people have this absolute drive to go to college. Why? It's an extension of high school. And what a high school in college have in common. It's a community. You're in the quad. You can see and be seen. They're sort of like a status reputation. You're constantly involved with other people. And I think everybody young people look at when they graduate from college like falling off a cliff and now life is over. Because now you just have your job, the gym and going back home and that's it. And this is why a lot of young people then want to move to the big cities. Gotta go to New York, gotta go to Chicago or LA where it's happening. And they want to get a condor and apartment downtown because they want to go to the bar scene, extend college a little bit longer. And I think that's just not really a sustainable way to have a society. There has to be a way for people to still have that sense of the community outside of, let's say, college in high school, even into their adulthood and then into their old age. So yeah, I mean, that's one of the biggest problems going on. And I agree. I think it drives, even to your point about the whites only community in Arkansas, I think it is driving these, let's call it ghettoization or insulation of people going into these artificial values based communities. Because where are you gonna find people? Go online. Go online, start spouting about politics or even not just for in cells and right wingers, but even on the left, someone like Tyler Robinson, he's on Discord. He's on Discord with all of the Overwatch players and all the LGBTQ or whatever. And I think that, you know, there's a tendency there where everybody kind of amplifies some of the resentment or feelings there. So I agree, that's a huge driver.

Andrew Callaghan: So for you, like back in high school, when you were like first kind of starting to use the internet and all that, did you build Mr. Community in person outside Chicago or was it mostly online?

Nick Fuentes: When I was in high school or college. High school. High school, I had real friends in the model UN. That was my favorite thing.

Andrew Callaghan: So that was... But you were still creating like some kind of content at that time. Not in high school, no. Okay. So you went to be you? Yes. Where most of your friends like classmates there, when did you start to kind of build your online persona and community around your content?

Nick Fuentes: It wasn't until I left college. So to that point, I had friends in college. And then when I left college and started my show, independently, then it was all people online. And everybody I knew was people from my community, from the most part.

Andrew Callaghan: But your cancellation from mainstream platforms was effectively the same thing as like a community collapse for your personal life, right?

Nick Fuentes: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't even say it was just the cancellation, but even more just returning home from college.

Andrew Callaghan: What do you think wouldn't happen to you like career-wise and personal life-wise if you never would have been mainstreamed? I mean, I guess, removed from major social media platforms.

Nick Fuentes: Oh, it'd be a lot easier to make friends. Let's say, because being banned on Instagram, you might as well be dead in Generation Z. That's how everybody sees each other, meets each other, talks to each other. So I think I probably have a wider, livelier circle.

Andrew Callaghan: Do you feel like you had less friends after that?

Nick Fuentes: No, I'd say it's about the same.

Andrew Callaghan: No, but you said that you feel like it would have been easier to make friends. It would have been easy to make more friends, yeah, sure. So aside from your career, how is your personal and social life affected in those following years?

Nick Fuentes: Well, it's brutal, you know? I mean, because everybody that I knew from high school is on Instagram, on Facebook, and I'm just not on there. It's almost like you're removed from the earth. For Generation Z, I understand for older people, for different generation, people still meet up or stay in touch in other ways. But if you're not online as a young person, you might as well be dead.

Andrew Callaghan: Do you think you would have said like some of the more extreme things that you did say, if you, you know, I guess we're allowed to remain on the mainstream internet? Absolutely, yeah. Looking back and I'm not trying to get you to like take something back necessarily. What's like one thing that you said when you're younger where you're like, fuck, wish I could take that back?

Nick Fuentes: You know, I don't know if I regret what I've said. It's just how you say it.

Andrew Callaghan: Yeah, like can you give an example of like, when you listen back to something, you're like, Jesus.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, yeah. So I did this rally in 2023 called Fentus Rally 2. And the one comment I said, we're talking about a spiritual battle between Christians and everybody else. And I said, we're in a holy war. I said, we're gonna make them die in a holy war. And the second I said that, I was like, didn't mean to say that. It's an extemporaneous speech. So you don't rehearse it. You just say things and I was like, didn't mean that. Shouldn't have said that. So it's always the how. It's always in the delivery that I...

Hunter Biden: Nick, I can think of about four things that I really wish you would take back right now, but we don't have that. The cookies in the oven? Mm. Well, it's a joke. But it's not, Nick. My wife is Jewish. My son is Jewish. No, no, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. I promise you, don't get mad. I'm not mad at you. I know, but okay. But you gotta understand how incredibly, incredibly, whether it's a joke or not, to live the experience, pass down from generation to generation, whether or not, and by the way, not just from the Holocaust, not just from 1939 on. 2,000 years of history, okay? Forget about Israeli politics and Netanyahu, because I think we agree about BB Netanyahu. I'm positive we do. I've listened to you talk about it. But you gotta understand, look at me, man. I see. It hurts. It hurts. I don't think. I promise you it does. When you compare my wife's family to cookies going to an oven, it hurts. And you gotta understand that. And by the way, I'm looking at you. Yeah. And I believe that you do know that.

Nick Fuentes: So that's where you lose me. That's where you lose me. Okay, Nick. Okay, I'm telling you. Are we here to talk or are you here to lecture me and preach to me? Okay, no, you're right. I let me listen. Okay, you're right. So this is a thing because, you know, and I think this is a disconnect, I think that the left, and even people on the right, they're losing the young people. Why do people love me not in spite of, but because of the outrageous things that I say, not in spite of, but because I say offensive things, because I, let's say, drop the N word on a video or something. It's because people are sick of the preaching-ness, the lecturing. Okay, I'll listen to what you answer.

Hunter Biden: But Nick, I disagree. I think that you're appealing to the lowest common denominator of thought. If you're hating on the people that they think are the reason for their suffering, then you must be on their side. I don't think that you believe that about the Holocaust. I think you think the Holocaust did happen, but forget about whether or not you think that it is used politically in a way that is obtuse and wrong. But I think that you do believe that. And I think that you have to, like, what's your cultural heritage? I'm Italian, Mexican and Irish. Mexican. When did they come in Italian? When did the Mexicans come? When did the Irish come?

Nick Fuentes: Mexicans came, turn it the last century. Italians came in the 1860s. Irish came in the early 1990s.

Hunter Biden: So maybe you wouldn't care about something that is, like, grossly offensive just on the face of it and think that, oh, why can't people just believe that that's funny? But you got to understand, it's from a perspective of somebody that has the trauma. And I think that there is such a thing as generational trauma. And those stories are passed down generation to generation. When you say something like that, it's completely shut off. They can't hear another thing that you're saying about the cultural disconnect, about losing communities, about the feeling of being left out or left behind in a world in which there are no longer is this sense of community. All the other things that you say, everybody else is left. And what you do pick up, you pick up the ones that they hear the dog whistle. You pick up the ones that say, uh-huh. Yeah, that's the way that I feel, because it's radical. It's like he's willing to say the thing that nobody else will say in this environment. And then you get an enormous amount of niche, but, you know, beloved from that. And I don't, but I just don't believe that you believe that. I don't, I don't believe that you think that it was appropriate for you to say something like that. I don't think it's, but you believe that it's appropriate to say women shouldn't vote. Let's give Nick a second to respond to the first thing. I know, I talk. Well, that's how I, that's how I do this. That's all good, that's all good. I apologize.

Nick Fuentes: I get it and I understand that perspective. And I, you know, it is offensive and it is provocative. And that's sort of what makes it funny. I mean, what we would say in our generation's edge lording, we're being edgy, we're being provocative. And I think that it is that kind of overbearing sense

Hunter Biden: for our entire... I'm a king of edge lording.

Nick Fuentes: Well, let's let Nick explain it, let's let Nick explain it. I know. You know, it's, it's that overbearingness that my generations had our entire lives. That's not appropriate. That's not funny. Think of the trauma, that's racist. That's white supremacist that makes it funny, that makes it different, interesting. And let me grant, by the way, I think that now, and this is maybe a concession towards you, now that my kind of humor has become mainstream and popular, I don't even think that that's funny anymore. People do the edge lording thing, it's become so commonplace and so tired. I don't think it's that funny or impressive. That's a big part of why I kind of move past it, because 10 years ago, it was treated like sacrilegious. And there's something funny about the fact that you could say a word or make a joke and make people lose their minds and freak out. And it was like an international incident if you said the wrong thing. And I think that's what made it tempting, especially for a young person, you want a rebel, you want to be defiant, you want to be a little revolutionary or something. Now, as time has gone on, I think that's become a fad, everybody does it. It's lost its power. And I think that, by the way, part of why we're getting less of it is because instead of getting the preachy lecture from the left saying, that's not appropriate, people just roll their eyes. Now, when an edgy white person says the N word, people roll their eyes and go, really, you know, that joke again, people here, someone wears a Nazi costume, makes a Holocaust joke, people go, really, that joke again, it's not impressive, it's not funny anymore. We've seen it before. And ironically, that is what makes you get less of it when you disempower those things by not giving them this over-the-top reaction, pretending like it's some great travesty.

Andrew Callaghan: So you think the new counterculture is gonna be to be woke again?

Nick Fuentes: No, I think it's a synthesis.

Andrew Callaghan: A synthesis of post-edge lordism and wokeism? Yes, because I think that wokeism had its excesses.

Nick Fuentes: Edge lording also has its excesses. And I think now we're finding a middle ground between saying the edgiest thing we can think of with no regard for anyone and saying everything is racist. You know, if you say something, you should lose your job. We're finding a middle ground where, you know, maybe it's tasteful, tastefully offensive in small doses, less is more.

Andrew Callaghan: So it sounds like you believe in the survival of the American experiment.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, I really do. And listen, I don't think everything about wokeism was bad necessarily.

Andrew Callaghan: What's the best thing about wokeism?

Nick Fuentes: I think that genuinely it has made people more respectful and empathetic. Because let's be honest, 20 years ago, let's say when I was growing up, I think there was a lot of cruelty. And I think there were some hateful attitudes. And I think as time has gone on, this younger generation, they may not be even left-wing. They may not be what you consider woke. But I think they are respectful of people that have different ideas or, you know, different way of life or from a different culture. You know, we make jokes all the time about the fact that I'm like a far-right guy and I'm Mexican. People say I'm a white supremacist, I'm Mexican. And people make a joke that a lot of far-right people are Hispanic. And I think that's a consequence that there's very little genuine racial hatred in anybody's DNA anymore or any kind of hatred. And I think that's positive, but that went too far. And I think some of the other stuff went too far as well.

Andrew Callaghan: You know, one of these strange things about sitting in a room with these two is that they agree on almost nothing, but they've both lived the same nightmare. Hunter had a laptop turned into a decade of strangers picking through his texts, his private photos, his voice memo, and even his bank record, whereas Nick has been doxed, swatted, had his DMs leaked probably more times that he can count, and more shenanigans. Different politics, but kind of same experience. Somebody somewhere decided that their personal information was public property, so they exhumed it and sent it off to the world. But here's the thing that most people don't know. A huge amount of that information actually isn't stolen. It's for sale, legally. Currently, they're over 420 companies called Data Brokers, whose entire business is collecting your home address, your phone number, your relatives, your previous addresses, your income bracket, and selling access to anybody who pays. Last October, one of these vendors got breached and 70,000 people had their government IDs exposed in one day. That's what this ecosystem looks like when it fails and it fails constantly. Now you might be thinking, okay, but I'm not a Hunter Biden, Andrew Callahan, or Nick Fuentes. Nobody's coming after me, and honestly, I get that. But here's what actually happens when your info is sitting in these databases. Every spam call you get, every spam text about a package you didn't order, every weird email from a bank that you don't use, that's the Data Broker economy. It's why scammers know your name before they call. This issue is affecting so many Americans. The FBI just said that Americans lost $21 billion to online fraud last year, and Americans over 60 lost 7.7 billion of them. And the fastest growing category of scam types relates to AI voice clones. It's a scam where somebody calls your mom pretending to be you and your voice from a number that looks like yours. But guess what, that scam doesn't work. If the scammer doesn't already know your name, your mom's name, and her phone number. And guess where they got that stuff? All three, Data Brokers. There's also the issue of who can find your address. Any ex, any estranged family member, anybody from a situation ship you left years ago who went crazy, 20 bucks on a people search site, and they know where you live right now. Most people don't think about that until it matters and by then it's too late, you're dead. That's where Encogni comes in. You just sign up and they take it from there. They contact Data Brokers directly, demand that your info be removed and send fresh sweeps every 16 to 90 days so nothing quietly gets added back. They've processed over 245 million removal requests to date. And unlike most other competitors in this industry, they had Deloitte. They had Deloitte. They had Beliote. One of the big four auditing firms independently verify how many brokers they cover and how often they actually follow up. The numbers didn't lie. The numbers aren't marketing. They are audited. Encogni is this shit. They didn't come to play around and guess what? On the unlimited and family unlimited plans, you also get their exposure scanner. It crawls the way I'm looking for personal info outside the usual broker sites and hands anything it finds to incognize removal specialists who are real people, not AI robots on the other side. Recently I ran my own info through Encogni and immediately found old addresses, phone numbers and family members listed across a bunch of people search websites. Within the first week though, dozens of removal requests were already in progress and you can watch the whole thing happen on the Encogni dashboard. Go to encogni.com slash channel five, use code channel five, all caps, 60% off. All right, back to Hunter and Nick. I bless Espanol. No. Not a little bit, I guess.

Nick Fuentes: From high school.

Andrew Callaghan: Can you do a little bit? No, in polka. Okay. I don't speak it from my dad, so. Did you grow up like around a lot of Mexicans? No, all white people for the most part. Did they know you were Mexican? They did.

Nick Fuentes: And not gonna lie. I mean, people made fun of me for that.

Andrew Callaghan: What did they say?

Nick Fuentes: Well, like, for example, one time when I was in Model UN, I was entering high schools of freshmen. They looked at my name on the roster without knowing me and they told me this after the fact, the leadership of the club, they said, oh, we thought you were just some Mexican kids who we gave you a bad committee assignment. Wow. But see, I heard that and I laughed. I said, that's funny. You know, there's a lot of people that say, oh, that's traumatic. I'm a victim of racism. You know, I think that's, you know, it's just a human thing.

Andrew Callaghan: Yeah, I always felt like growing up as like a white kid in America.

Hunter Biden: What if you weren't, wait, what if, what if you were an identified as being Mexican and they came to you and they didn't tell you that's the reason that they gave you all the bad committee assignments? That would be unfair. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just saying. That's the one point, isn't it? And I mean, you may find it funny because you pass as a white Anglo Christian. Do you think I pass? What? Do you think I pass as a white Anglo Christian? Well, I don't only think I pass, I think you identify as it, yeah. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, no, but really, for real. And my point is that I heard you do an interview, okay? And I, literally on the right up here is like, you were talking about how you were raised on like Mark Levin in high school. Right. I think that you liked the most about Mark Levin is how cruel he was to the colors. I don't see, I don't get that. I like the joke about the cookies. It may be a joke and it may be edge lording and you may not really mean it, but you got to realize the cruelty to it. And without going like, oh, like, you know, when, when, like, you know, people got to stop crying about the past. And that's the thing. Is it, I think that you have such an opportunities to talk to a generation of disaffected angry, legitimately angry people in a way in which is, is positive without having to do that shit. And by the way, and I'm not holding you responsible for like, you know, the end of, of, you know, my conception of Western civilization, which is different than yours, but I just don't get it. I don't get why you find the cruelty. And I think that, by the way, I think that that's why you like Trump. I mean, this is by making, you know, like a very unfair leap because his first instinct is cruelty. His first instinct is to find the fault in the other about everything, by the way. It's not his fault that we're in a war with the ran that he's ended 38 times and, you know, and started 39. It's not his fault that inflation's high. It's not his fault that the wall didn't get built. It's not his fault that ISIS killing people on the streets in, in these places. Is it the cruelty of it? Maybe it's a generational thing. I got friends who are Jewish that are gonna be really, really fucking pissed off that I'm sitting next to you. And what do I tell them? What do I tell them why it's okay for me to sit and have this conversation with you?

Nick Fuentes: I guess I just have such a different opinion of that. You know, why should we have to explain ourselves to talk to anybody? And why is it that saying the wrong words or making a particular joke makes it so the Jewish person wouldn't want to watch my show? I have a lot of Jewish fans. I mean, some of my best friends are Jewish. I've had Jewish employees and they recognize that, you know, just because I'm not necessarily nice all the time. It doesn't mean I'm hateful, it doesn't mean, I don't even think they see it as cruel. I think they see it as, it's a little rough around the edges. And maybe that's the difference. I guess it's just attributing this weight to something that we can consider to joke and maybe doesn't have a cruel intention behind it. Like, you know, Mark Levin, you got to remember at the end of the day, it's an entertainment show. It's entertainment, people call in, he gets frustrated with them. It's part of what I do on my show. And it's not always nice, but it's funny. And I don't think it's mean spirited necessarily. And I don't think it's that big of a deal. So I mean, the thought that I would like, for example, with you, people would say, why do you talk to Hunter Biden, his father, and his DOJ, froze your money and put you on a no-fly list? I'd say, so what? I mean, it's just talking. I don't think talking's a big deal, you know?

Hunter Biden: It froze my money and put me on a no-fly list too.

Andrew Callaghan: There you go. See, so we got that in common. So a different question that I have, that kind of weaves everything together. How do you think, like, October 7th, and this subsequent, like, pro-Palestine movement and the online world that created led to a growing audience

Nick Fuentes: on the right? October 7th, in particular. Well, I think it highlighted and brought to the forefront how captured the right wing is by Israel, which is very unique. I think the Democrats and the Republicans are pro-Israel, but the Republican Party has this inextricable institutional connection with the Israel lobby, with this like-cude government in particular. And I think people just started to see the hypocrisies. The hypocrisy was brought to the forefront, which is America first, but not with Israel. No new wars, except for with Iran.

Donald Trump clip: Under Trump, we will have no more wars. No more wars. No more wars. They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars tonight, Iran's navy is gone.

Nick Fuentes: You know, we're going to be racist and all these things, but don't you dare be anti-Semitic. Don't even think about it. I see good things about Hitler also. Every human being has something of value that they brought to the table, especially Hitler. So I think that on the right wing, it made it unignorable that there's this ideological institutional capture.

Andrew Callaghan: I just feel like a lot of straightforward, like just anti-Semite influencers were taking advantage of the post-docs, so October 7th discourse to push other ideas, broader ideas about Jewish people as a whole.

Nick Fuentes: Come out and say it. I think that Jews are causing a disproportionate amount of problems in the United States. Well, I mean, I think it's hard to ignore some of those other conversations. I know that it's now become maybe invoked to say that the Israel issue is very narrow. It's just Netanyahu. It's just a like-kudniks. It's just the Israel lobby. But, you know, what would you say about someone like Larry Ellison? I mean, somebody like that, I don't think fits neatly into this, let's say, problem of Netanyahu.

Andrew Callaghan: As far as installing Barry Weiss and whatnot.

Nick Fuentes: Yes, gotcha gotcha gotcha. Because this is somebody who's not Israeli. He's not even a religious Jew, but he's ethnically Jewish and has this deep affinity for the state of Israel. You know, I feel a deep emotional connection to the state of Israel and the Israeli people. And is using and mobilizing his power and resources and connections to benefit Israel in the private sector. And so if you were to say what's a law that we could pass to prevent that kind of influence, what would it look like? He's an American citizen. He can't buy a media company and hire Barry Weiss to run CBS News. And yet we recognize that's a big problem.

Andrew Callaghan: I just feel the conflation of like anti-Zionism like Holocaust denial played into the hands of the Israeli propaganda apparatus. Because then they can say, hey, look, these people that oppose what we're doing in Palestine also don't think the Holocaust happened. For it's a big jump in the public perception.

Hunter Biden: It was almost to me as if that was your intent to lose any legitimacy about any argument as it relates to Israel. And the liquid government is to say those edge-lording things or whatever.

Nick Fuentes: Jews are money changers. Bullshit artists, psychopaths, charlatans,

Hunter Biden: grifters, manipulators. I don't know anybody that can hear you after you say that, including myself. It delegitimizes everything. Because I don't think that you a little bit of more compassion. Let's try to stay a little.

Andrew Callaghan: I don't want to do any character attacks on Nick.

Hunter Biden: Oh, I'm not attacking his character. I'm not attacking. I promise you, I'm not.

Andrew Callaghan: No, as far as compassion, I'm more just mean straightforward. Do you feel like the rise in anti-Semitic online influencers post-October 7 has given Israel a more ammunition to work with in terms of casting everyone who opposes what they're doing as just like a rabid Jewator?

Nick Fuentes: In some cases, yeah, in some cases, sure. But I also think that's overstated, because I think that, you know, look, let's just be honest, I do believe the political left wants to make the Israel issue very narrow. And they want to say that the issue is this genocide in Palestine, and on some level, they think that the Israeli government is racist. You fucking bang pig! You fucking bloodthirsty, violent pig dog. And that's the problem. And I think that that ignores that there is a broader conversation. And it does have to do with the Holocaust. And it does have to do with Jews as such and Jewish nationalism and Jewish identity. So to try to shoehorn it in and say, well, if anybody goes further than this very narrow critique of Israel, well, they're actually helping Israel, I don't agree with that. I think we have to unpack the whole conversation.

Andrew Callaghan: Will do you care a lot about Palestinians? Not more than I care about anybody else. So I guess that would be why they would be like, OK, you're just taking advantage of this discourse.

Nick Fuentes: I don't think it's taking advantage. I think that we can sympathize with the Palestinians while also realizing that, you know, look, I'm an American. And so it's a tragedy what's happening in Palestine. But there's tragedies happening all over the world. My problem is that Israel has a influence over our government. I'm a newcomer to politics, but not to back in the Jewish state. And we're paying for the genocide. And we're furnishing them with the weapons to commit the genocide. And by the way, America is going to be held liable for this genocide morally, but also politically and diplomatically and otherwise. But I think that people on the left, they may be guilty of maybe caring more about Palestine than they do about America.

Hunter Biden: Nick, but the left didn't cancel you. The right canceled you first. The right canceled you first in Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire. And those were the people that canceled. They may have utilized the tools of the left or what you call the left to be able to do that. But it was the right that canceled you. And by the way, I would consider a radical right. The Daily Wire to me is a radical right.

Nick Fuentes: I don't think they're even reaction. I don't think they're that conservative at all. Ben Shapiro, I mean, he's not like he's in prison.

Hunter Biden: In 2016. In 2016, they were all right. No, they were not. Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire were, they were to the right of Mitt Romney, you know what I mean? That's what I mean. They were more conservative. That's who you were canceled by. I was also canceled by the left. No, I know. They came along because some of the more egregious things that you said, that you said is exhilarating. They came along, whether you call it canceling or saying, like, what the fuck? This is what I call it. What the fuck? Like, what the fuck? And so, like, I don't find it funny. And just like you're able to say, well, I just think it's funny. I'm able to say, I don't find it fucking funny. I didn't find it funny then. I don't find it funny now. I didn't find it funny at the jump of the things that, you know, you said about me. But I'm willing to sit here and listen to you because I want to get to this. And this is my whole point. What about fucking Donald Trump? Yeah, we can get to that. How did you get all the people in the world where you could look at and say he doesn't believe anything?

Andrew Callaghan: So for context for the viewer, Donald Trump is currently the sitting president of the US for audience abroad. The war with Iran was supposed to be over. And now we're back in business, baby. How many had a pretty sick funeral if you saw the video? So, you guys don't like Trump. You used to like him. I did. You boys hated him. He's trying to destroy your life. Yeah. You guys were cool. You guys hung out once at Mar-a-Laga with Kanye. You've never hung out with Trump, right? Would you want to? No.

Hunter Biden: No, I would do. I want to. Yeah, I did. Look, man, I would, like, can we get him? Can we get him in the hotel?

Andrew Callaghan: No, so I want you to imagine he's in the hotel with us. That's Trump.

Hunter Biden: What do you want to ask him? Oh, you know, put me on the spot. I don't want to ask Donald Trump anything because I know, and I think you would agree with me, is that Donald Trump isn't going to give me an authentic answer. Donald Trump never gives an authentic answer. He gives what people refer to as being authentic, but it's not authentic. It's audacious. It's like the example that I give that is the best metaphor for this is that he says he's 6'3, weighs 225 pounds. And everybody laughs because that's a little bit like edge lording, right? Everybody knows that he is maybe six feet in ways, maybe 300, 285?

Nick Fuentes: He's a big guy.

Hunter Biden: He's a pretty big guy. Yeah, big guy, but by virtue of every picture ever taken of anyone that's 6'3, he's not 6'3". I am. Okay, yeah, I know you are. Thank you. Here's 6'2 and a half. Maybe, that's fuck, maybe. But my point is, is that the reason I don't have a question for him is because I'm absolutely certain that he is not going to give me an authentic answer. Look, he came into the Oval Office and the transition this time. And he told my dad that he thought that he did an amazing job. He did an amazing job with the economy. He did an amazing job that with NATO, he did an amazing job and that he got a raw deal from his side and anything he could do, particularly for Hunter, Hunter got screwed, whatever I could do, you let me know. Bullshit. He then went out and he has now since then done nothing but blame Joe Biden for every single one of his problems.

Donald Trump clip: 11 months ago, I inherited a mess. Joe Biden handed us over a country that was in very serious trouble. Biden gave us a horrible economy. I really mean this. I think the good parts of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the Biden economy.

Hunter Biden: He mentioned my dad's name or my family's name, six times a day in the first 100 days of this administration. Six times a day. He does it maybe four times a day now because he has no answers. All he has is a finger to point. And that's all he does. My point is I don't know what to ask him. Why are you such a dick? What is your dad think about the war? Right. But I don't, I'm not going to get into what my dad thinks about the war. Is that really because I don't want like, I don't want to get into, I don't put words in my dad's mouth just like I wouldn't ask you what your dad thinks about the war, but that wasn't the president of the United States, I'll handle it. I'll handle it. But look, all I can say is this is that every single Israeli prime minister since Jimmy, at least Jimmy Carter was president has walked into the Oval Office or picked up the phone and called the president and said we have to attack her in. And every single one of them has said no. And they may not all have had the same exact reason, but one of the reasons they did is because they knew what the consequences would be as it relates to the lifeblood of the economy is totally in the streets of our moves. Every single one of them knew that and every single one of them knew that there is no way unless you send in ground forces to end with certainty the nuclear program that the Iranians have supposedly been building. Every single one of them knew that the existing Ayatollah, the Ayatollah at that time, had put out a fatwa, an edict saying that they would never turn their nuclear technology into a bomb.

Ayatollah Khomeini clip: The supreme leader of Iran issued fatwa. Having new nuclear weapons is forbidden, it's haram. Which means never we can have new nuclear weapons.

Hunter Biden: It was a religious eating as strong as if the Pope had released an encyclical. But what did he do? He kills the Ayatollah. We get a son that now has a far more radical and far greater ties to the IRGC. And what do we have? The streets of our moves are still closed. He said that they're brilliant people. I find that that's done with Trump on everything. He said he'd end the war in Ukraine on day one.

Donald Trump clip: That is a war that's dying to be settled. I will get it settled before I even become president.

Hunter Biden: And I didn't hear anybody on the right or I didn't say that's just bullshit. There's, it's just bullshit. He said that he would build a wall. I don't believe in building a wall. But everybody said that's bullshit. And then when he got into office, the corruption, the level of the corruption, I mean, people believed, or led to believe that there was this thing called the Biden Crime Family, right? I know that you know is that I didn't do single piece of business when my dad was president. I made basically $200,000 a year selling paintings. I picked the thing that was the furthest possible thing away from politics that I possibly could. Don and Eric have done over $1.3 billion in contracts, just in contracts for underlying companies that they have an ownership stake in with the Department of Defense. Don Jr. got the largest loan ever given by the Department of Defense of a company that he bought into like three months before they got the loan. Because Peter Navarro picked up the phone and called a DOD to get it done. My point is I don't have anything productive to say to him that I know of. And when I listen to you, and I listen to what you do, is my question is, is how did you not see that before? He was a disaster in 2020, a complete not a disaster as it related to what he did with COVID-19. Regardless of whether you think we were supposed to, we weren't a master or not.

Andrew Callaghan: The question for Nick is, how did you not realize six years ago that Trump would be this sort of let down? Because he doesn't hold, and you know that he, there's no ideological core to Donald Trump?

Nick Fuentes: No, I agree with you. Well, you got to realize in 2016, where Republicans were at. We had John McCain, we had Mitt Romney, and the perception on the right is that they were insufficiently conservative, and that they were losers. All they do is lose, because they don't fight. There is this perception that the Democrats are ruthless, fighters, Obama, crushed in 2008, crushed. When we thought we, he really should have lost in 2012. That was a Republican perception that Romney let us down. And so when Trump came on the scene in 2016, it was new, it was refreshing. He seemed like somebody that was really gonna take on, not just the Democrats, but also the media on our behalf. And what's more, you got to think about the mood of the moment in 16 as well, and the message Trump was giving. Trump said in 16, it's just me and my son and my wife, we don't have any donors, we don't have any special interests.

Donald Trump clip: More than $100 million put in of my money, meaning I'm not taking all of this big money from all of these different corporations like she's to.

Nick Fuentes: We're gonna put America first, make the country great again. This is a very appealing message. And I talk all the time on my show about it, and realizing now that it was obviously a scam, and now obviously unfulfilled completely, and you're right, Trump is non-ideological. The message was brilliant because it said one, the system is broken. America's not great anymore, but it used to be. We can make it great again, but in order to do it, we need to actually bypass the system. Why is it that we never have victories? Why is it that things don't change because of money? He said, and that's why I'm different, I'm rich. I'm a billionaire, if I self-unmit campaign and don't take super PAC money, then I won't have to listen to the lobbyists and the special interests. I could fire the people I need to fire, do the things I need to do. That was like a very powerful message in 2016. And after four years, I was one of the people even back then that said, look, it never materialized. He did wind up taking super PAC money. He took eight PAC money for that matter. Sheldon Adelson money at that time in 16, even in the first term, bombed Iran. In the first term, didn't build the wall. In the first term, didn't even reduce illegal immigration until 2019. And I remember the timeline perfectly because I covered it every day. It was like in May and June, 2019, 20-year illegal immigration high in terms of month over month. But why did I go for them in 2020? At the height of the pandemic, we all thought on the right that if anyone other than Trump was president, you were gonna get a vaccine mandate, which we really didn't wanna be forced to take the vaccine. We thought the lockdown might never end. We thought that censorship would kick into overdrive. And so we said, really, it's unacceptable that anyone other than Trump would just be a disaster. And then obviously Biden came in and I don't think it was as bad as we thought it would be to tell you the truth, honestly. But by 2024, I mean, I was out in 2024 because everything you're saying is totally true. And I was telling people on my side, I was saying he's not gonna build the wall. Then I know you're against that. He's not gonna do the nasty portations promising that. He's not gonna start no new wars. I said in 24, he's gonna take us to Iran. And the Ukraine war, I said, that's not gonna end in one day. Too complicated, we're already in it. And so I didn't vote. I didn't vote in 2024. And I told my followers not to vote for Trump for that reason. And it was only until a year later, after all the exuberance died down and people saw the bearing of the Epstein files, the war in Iran, people said, you know what, you were right. You were right about Trump. Even Alex Jones told me, you were right about Trump. I was all in on him. So, I mean, as far as him being vaporware is concerned in a scammer and fundamentally, you're 100% right, no ideological core. He's not an ideological guy. Yeah, it is.

Hunter Biden: He's really all about him.

Nick Fuentes: And I agree, he's a cruel narcissist. And you said, I like the cruelty. I do not like the cruelty.

Hunter Biden: No, no, by the way, no. I didn't say you like the cruelty. I said, I'd listen to you thing. And you said, one of the things that you liked about Levin was the cruelty. And not for the cruelty sake, it didn't seem to me like there is, is because it was raw. It was, yeah, yeah. And I said, so I'm not saying that.

Nick Fuentes: No, but I do. I agree. I think he is cruel. And even what he said on Easter, I mean, we're Catholic. On Easter Sunday, he says, we're going to annihilate Iran. And then he made fun of Allah on Easter Sunday. So, you know, that kind of stuff, it just totally turned me off entirely.

Andrew Callaghan: Is there anything that you think Trump can do to like regain the support of the, I guess, a Gen Z and millennial, right?

Nick Fuentes: No, it's over. People see what he's made of. And Hunter's right, he's a liar. He is a liar. He is a bullshit artist. And especially, you look at what he did with the Epstein files with the war in Iran when he did a Thomas Massey.

Donald Trump clip: He's guy named Thomas Massey. There's something wrong with him. They just about, no, they love voting now. They think it's good politically.

Nick Fuentes: You realize that if you are America first, you have no place in this Republican party, because he said it. He said our Republican party, or rather, he said MAGA. Is Mark Levin, Laura Loomer, Randy Fein? He said, and who is not MAGA? Megan Callie Tucker, Alex Jones, Candace. And I think most Republicans said, well, we're with those other people. We're not MAGA anymore, so.

Hunter Biden: What do you think happens, Nick? I believe that we need radical change. And I'm not talking about violence or revolution or things like that. I'm talking about the only ways that you can have this kind of radical rethinking of the system. Like, there's so many, like, what do you think about the Epstein files? And what do you think about the accountability? And do you think that he's broken the system to the degree that we now are basically in a dictatorship light?

Nick Fuentes: No, I actually have a lot of confidence only because I think the Democrats are going to take the House in 26, which I support. I'm telling my people vote Democrat. We want the Democrats in the House. Because what they're going to do is they're going to use the oversight powers to bring all the corruption to light. Because I know Republicans will watch this. And when you say, you know, we didn't commit crime, they're going to be skeptical. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the income you made during Biden was ill-gotten. For the sake of example, it's just not, doesn't hold a candle. It doesn't even come close, doesn't even touch. Jared Kushner, Howard Lutnik, Steve Whitkoff, Don Jr. Trump himself, it's just a different sport. It's a different game entirely. And I want all that corruption to be revealed. And I think the Democrats are going to do it. I hope they get impeached. I don't think they'll be removed from office. But I think it'll basically drag this administration to a halt. And then 28, I think there's an opportunity for a clean reset with both sides right and left.

Andrew Callaghan: Hey guys, quick thing before we get back to Hunter and Nick. So these two guys individually have been hammered on all sides by the American media for years. And if you wanted to understand why the coverage looks the way it does historically, you've got to ask an important question that nobody asks. Who owns the outlets doing the hammering? Who's doing the hammering? Who funds them? Who's on the board of directors? Once you trace the money, the whole two-party culture or things starts looking a lot less like a real fight and a lot more like a business model and a very effective one. And ground news is how I see right through it. So ground news is the dopest news aggregate out there. App and website as well. Beyond the ownership piece, every outlet gets a bias rating and a factuality score. And there's a blind spot feature that catches stories that one side is hammering while the other side is completely ignoring. Which happens more than you'd believe. Here's a perfect example. So my man, Big Hunter Biden, Big HB, just won a $1.7 million defamation suit against ex-overstock CEO Patrick Byrne, who lied in claim that Hunter took an $800 million bribe from the Iranians. Pull it up in ground news. So the WLT report on the far right, the sister site of WeLoveTrump.com, spent four years shitting on my boy Hunter. But today, the headline reads, Hunter scores stunning $1.7 million court victory. Wow, stunning. Now on the left, Raw Story says, Hunter gets last laugh after judge orders and ag a millionaire to fork over nearly two million. So on this story, as you can see, left, right, everyone converges. That's the ownership beat right there. WLT report is a Trump loyal outlet and even they had to run the wind straight. That's the ownership beat right there. And when you can actually see the ownership inside of ground news, you can really trust exactly what you're reading. Look, I don't do much news commentary. I do documentaries, but before I sit down with two guys who have been extensively attacked by the press for years, I gotta know where the coverage of them is actually coming from before I ask my questions. And ground news is exactly how I do it. If you wanna be just like me and join the GNC5 family, go to ground.newslastchannel5 or scan the QR code on screen. You'll get 40% off the vantage plan, the illus plan on the dopest app in human history. Break out of the algorithm. Ground news. All right, back to Hunter and Nick. Whenever you talk about Trump, sometimes you explain this like nightmare scenario that revolves around a Vance presidency. Yes. What about JD Vance being in power scares you so much.

Nick Fuentes: If Trump doesn't have an ideological core, then Vance really doesn't, because Vance is a chameleon. That's not his real name for openers. Never had a real job. These are all synacures given to him by Peter Till. Six years ago, he's a never-trumper. I'm a never-trump guy.

Sam Altman clip: I never liked him. I think that he's leading people in a very dark direction. And that's ultimately what worries me the most. Terrible candidate. Idiot, if you voted for him, might be America's Hitler. I was wrong about Donald Trump. I didn't think he was going to be a good president, Brett. He was a great president.

Nick Fuentes: Now he's a national conservative, national populist. And so we don't even really know who he is. I mean, to me, this is basically a Manchurian candidate. This is a shell. And who is the power behind him? It's the oligarchs. It's the little tech oligarchs in bed with the CIA. You know, especially at this fever pitch with AI, I think that's really dangerous. So to me, him being president is just a worse scenario on my mind.

Andrew Callaghan: For the uninformed viewer, what is the Palantir JD Man's connection?

Nick Fuentes: Well, Palantir was founded by Peter Teele. And Peter Teele is very close to David Sachs. JD Vance was given his first job in Silicon Valley by Teele. Teele hooked him up with it. You know, the CEO of that company said it was a personal favorite to Teele that I hired him. And then Teele got him all his jobs at these various venture capital firms, including his own. And then funding JD Vance's venture capital firm. Peter Teele gave $15 million to Vance when he ran for Senate in Ohio in 22. Peter Teele secured President Trump's endorsement for him in 22, which basically got him the nomination and the seat. So I mean, as far as anybody's concerned, Vance owes his entire political career to Peter Teele who derives his fortune from Palantir.

Hunter Biden: You know, he's a cat like you and me. Well, he's a convert, so you know.

Andrew Callaghan: Beware the convert. You, yeah. So do you think that Trump's unfulfillment of his campaign promises was a result of him being like compromised by somebody connected to that structure? Or do you think he always just never cared?

Nick Fuentes: I don't know that he never cared. I just think that, you know, me, I'm an idealist. So I think about the ideas and the concepts. Trump is a businessman. And so I think with him everything's transactional. And I said this in 2024, he knew. Trump knew the voters would swallow anything. The voters could not, would not walk away from the table because they were enamored with him.

Donald Trump clip: I could stand in the middle of fifth avenue

Nick Fuentes: and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay? It's like incredible. So he knew he could break every promise with them in order to fulfill promises for the donor class, which is little tech, the Israel lobby and Wall Street, the bankers, Tim Mellon, you know, the big asset managers. So I think with him everything's business, everything's a transaction. And that's why you can't trust him. You have to do business. And in 24, I said, we should all collectively say, we're not gonna vote unless he makes certain commitments. And not enough people did that. But I mean, that's fundamentally his flaw.

Andrew Callaghan: Your critique of this like elite power structure sounds like vaguely anti-capitalist.

Nick Fuentes: It's not anti-capitalist. Capitalism says the capital, large amounts of capital will be held in private hands, which I believe in. I am a capitalist, but I think what is happening is that it's the way that money is used in government. There needs to be a distinct and separate national power that subordinates the money power to it. The problem is the billionaires by all the elections, by all the media, control public perception. And so really we're all subsidiary then to the market. So I support capitalism, but it just has to be underneath the nation, underneath the state.

Andrew Callaghan: It seems like you have a pretty optimistic perspective on the year 2028.

Nick Fuentes: Well, he's gonna get a third term. So Trump 28, Trump is gonna be president of 28.

Andrew Callaghan: Kind of keep coming back to this like clean election year. Do you think that's gonna be like a renaissance year for outsider candidates and outside media channels like this one?

Nick Fuentes: It can be. I think it certainly can be because I think there's frustration on the right and on the left. You see even in the primaries on the Democrats side, it's all DSA progressive types that are winning. You ironically have the same frustration on the left with their establishment as we have on the right. And so I think in 2028, it's gonna be a year where there'll be a competitive Republican primary and Democratic primary. And hopefully the people make their voice heard and we get some new options. Maybe they reflect the will of the people more.

Hunter Biden: Yeah. So what do you think about somebody like Mamdani?

Nick Fuentes: Personally, I don't like him. I don't like some of the things that he said. Like for example, on 4th of July, when he takes the opportunity to sit there with, let's be honest, not a single white person in the room and says, you know, the founding fathers or would look down on us to working people with their dirt street tans against the billionaires. I think it's a little too divisive. I like his energy. I like that he's young. He's ironic.

Hunter Biden: That's rich, buddy. But no, it seems, it seems pointed at me. I know, but I think, like, yeah, but the thing...

Andrew Callaghan: He was dissing you in that video? Yeah, a little staring down the camera that just frees me, you said I'm a bitch.

Hunter Biden: People like me. Yeah. But what I see is somebody is using government for exactly the purpose that you just said is to break the oligopoly, to target the anger towards a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the population that has controlled the levers of government from the White House down to the mayor's office in New York City or Peoria, Illinois, to that matter. And even more so, as you go further down that chain. And so I look at somebody like Wendani and regardless of his delivery, which may be off-putting particularly for somebody coming from your side, is that he's delivering, man, you know what? I mean, he's really delivering. You know, like, I saw somebody going after mom Donnie for some of this stuff and particularly about rent control. You know? I was like, how do you think that the middle class was built after World War II and the GI Bill and rent control buildings that created those communities that we were talking about an hour ago?

clip: The GI Bill provides returning soldiers and veterans a range of benefits, including mortgages to purchase homes, loans to go to school. And this really was instrumental in creating a new American middle class.

Hunter Biden: Created the availability for somebody that was 26 years old, that had a job with the MTA to be able to live and work in the city and put the kid in the school with the idea that they would be safe walking there and go to a park where the water fountains worked. That's what I see him trying to do. I mean, by the way, it's just so tired. You know, he's a communist, communist. Like, it's about the communist. Like, who even says that anymore? Nobody thinks, you know what? We're just like 1981 and watching Rocky V and worried about the communist. You know what I mean? I just don't get it. Rocky IV? My whole Philly legitimacy, which is alone right there. But it's just kind of, so I look at somebody like Mom Donnie, I think, well, he's just talking about good government. Like, what do you think about health care? Don't you think that there should be a single-payer system? Don't you think that there should be some guarantee as a right? Because I don't know how you make it in this country and aspire to a middle-class life and be able to afford a catastrophic event as it relates to your health. I mean, it's over.

Nick Fuentes: You're done. I don't support single-payer, but I do believe that everybody should be entitled to some minimum level of coverage, catastrophic insurance. So, in principle, I agree.

Hunter Biden: Which is Medicare for all to a certain degree, right? I mean, because that's all the Medicare does right now. But why is that radical? See, I don't think that's necessarily radical, but I... To them, it's because we've been convinced that it's... To them, those others. Yeah, no, them. I mean, the insurance companies. Sure. And they're lobbyists who control 55% of Congress, regardless of who's in power. Right.

Nick Fuentes: Well, I don't think that's necessarily the most radical. I think, though, he is with the DSA, the Democratic Socialist of America. He backs all these DSA candidates. And let's be honest, a lot of them are radical. Like, I saw one of these candidates which is one in New York a couple of weeks ago, the Chivalier candidate. There's a picture.

Hunter Biden: She hates my dad. Yeah, I know. She said about my dad. She's awful things about him.

Nick Fuentes: And she says, oh, I didn't have a napkin to wipe my hands so I used the American flag.

Hunter Biden: Yeah, by the way, I think it's crazy. But like, the same way that, you know, I thought a lot of the stuff that some people that got elected in 2016, 2020, even during the Tea Party, you know, kind of a moment was, you know, egregious, again, egregious.

Todd Akin clip: If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.

Hunter Biden: So what do we do? What do we do, Nick? I think a better question is. I'm married for real. What do we do? Can you at least come a little bit to this way? If you can come a little this way. I can. Here's where I can come. Is this? Do you get what I'm saying about the Holocaust things?

Nick Fuentes: Oh, about that. Not me really. I do. I do. And listen, here's what I'll say. Now that I'm older, I do think that's not the best approach. So I agree with you on that. And I see it as I get older, you know, because let's be honest. Saying those things when I'm a younger guy, when I'm, you know, 18, 20, it's like, you gotta think that's just the age. Jews are running society. Women need to shut the fuck up. Blacks need to be imprisoned for the most part. And a lot of young people think that's funny and everything like that, I think that. And it also goes with the medium as well. Livestreaming, social media. That's just what it rewards. So yeah, I think that people should try to move past some of that.

Hunter Biden: I'll try. But if you, if you try. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. And as it relates to when you talk about Israel in Netanyahu, the coup government, what's happening now? What's happened for the past 20 years in terms of whether the funding is or whether you think it is? It's really important that you make a distinction between that and Jews. Because here's the thing, okay? Zoramandadani has a higher-favorite rating in the United States among Jews than Bebe Netanyahu does. I think 65% of American Jews disagree with the approach that the Israeli government has right now. They don't disagree with you, but they completely turn on when they hear the conflation of Jews, Zionism, Israel and think automatically anti-Semitism, whether it's fair or not, okay? But you have to understand it. And you have to understand it from a cultural perspective in which the recent history is only one data point in 2,000 years of history as it relates to what it means to be a Jew. Of which is there is what? 1%, 0.5% of the entire world's population? Because I don't know what it adds to your argument or what it adds to your argument about Maryam Adelson being able to give $300 million to Donald Trump and commit to giving another $300 million to get her away and we end up in a war with Ruret.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, well, and I think that's a valid point. I do think, though, that the issue's broader than just Netanyahu.

Hunter Biden: Well, maybe, by the way, obviously, Netanyahu has a base within Israel, within the Jewish community here in the United States with Jared Kushner, you know what I mean? Jared Kushner, who's unelected, not a member of our government, is having as more control over the direction of everyday lives of American people right now than anybody that I know of. And meanwhile, all he's doing is building a $6 billion private equity fund with the people he is negotiating for. And I always say, look who's paying him and wondering whose interest that he is advancing. He's getting paid by the Saudis, and get paid by the Emirates, paid by the Qataris, just getting paid, go down the list. And for some reason, he is in control along with Steve Whitcough, who is also not elected by anybody, of deciding whether or not the streets of our music are going to open up and whether or not our gas places are going to go down. It may not matter to the three of us, necessarily, you know, an extra dollar, 60 cents or 85 cents. But, you know what? To 85% of the people living in America means it. It's the difference between whether or not they're going to be able to pay rent, you know? Whether or not you're going to be able to actually put the gas in your car in Montana to drive to your job on the, you know, on the ranch.

Nick Fuentes: Well, and here's what I'll say to you, and this is something kind of what I want to do this interview is emphasize the message that, as far as Jews are concerned in general, I think that it's the same standard that applies to everybody, which as long as you're patriotic, as long as you believe Americans should be put first by their government, I have no problem at all. And I think that everybody in the country should be treated with dignity and respect and have their civil rights. It's just this acute problem of these people, like you mentioned, like Larry Ellison, and Miriam Adelson, and Jared Kushner, they're putting some other country before the interest of our own. And that in principle is what I have a problem with.

Andrew Callaghan: There is going to be some people who watch this and feel like, all right, no take back sees. And they might feel like you're just kind of trying to moderate, and now that you've achieved your goal and got a lot of support, you're kind of moderating, because your main aim has already been achieved, which just sort of have a generational run and pop off. So now you're trying to kind of make your way more into the mainstream discourse, but you'll just go back again into the same sort of reactionary rhetoric once you're back in a number one spot.

Nick Fuentes: Well, I don't even think I'm moderating, and I even told our mutual friend, it's not even a moderation, it's not even an apology, it's clarifying, because all along I've been saying this message, it's just that the way that I'm saying it changes and evolves. I also think how people respond to it changes as well, because let's be honest, 10 years ago, there was a very different kind of conversation about Israel. You could not mention it in a negative or critical way without being utterly annihilated in politics. We all know that ever since October 7th, that's not the case anymore. So I think that there's sort of something reciprocal happening, which is that people are receiving me differently, and as someone that's growing older and more mature, I'm even representing myself differently. So I wouldn't even call moderating, just clarifying people are more receptive, and I'm maybe better able to articulate it.

Andrew Callaghan: And you think that's because you've kind of got an older and been able to have like a longer career and media to reflect on your different changes in your perhaps brain chemistry and lifestyle.

Nick Fuentes: That's a huge thing. I mean, I know it's 27. I have a very different mentality than I did when I was 20.

Andrew Callaghan: What's that? I mean, kind of made a difference.

Nick Fuentes: Just more even keeled. And I think every, you know, you know too, it's like when you're 20, you're just like a maniac, and then you hit 25 and you're like, all right, you know.

Hunter Biden: I was a maniac when I was 49. My brain chemistry has definitely changed to the last seven years too. And I do believe that people can grow and they can change. And I'm not asking you too. And I'm not asking you to say things. But there are certain things that I just hope that you can hear without feeling attacked, that some of the things that you said, whether it's as learning otherwise, are really hurtful. And then people completely turn off to the idea of being able to listen to you about anything, and then you get dug in more, and you're like, oh, fuck yourself. Like, you know, you can't take a joke kind of thing. And that's not what it is. It's not just wokeism, it's just, it's not. It's people being really, really hurt by it. And I accept your apology for all the mean things you said about me. Yes. Yeah, you know, I'm on my apology tour. Is that the one thing you did say, you said I was a degenerate crackhead. And I have to, the problem with that, not you. Me? And I also said you were cool though. Yeah, no, by the way, you said a degenerate crackhead. And you know what, I'm not even mad about that because I wasn't a degenerate crackhead. I spent more time on my hands and knees smoking anything that even remotely resembled crack cocaine. It's true.

Andrew Callaghan: And now you're sober. Yeah, funny, interesting. You also said that you've never drank before.

Nick Fuentes: Right.

Hunter Biden: Yeah, I've never had a drink, never done drugs. That's because you grew up, you know, with me. You like, don't be that guy. I grew up with you too, and I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. You're not as smart as he is. My brother never drank. My dad too, and I was going to ask, you know,

Andrew Callaghan: what kind of prompted your choice to just like be sober for life and never drink?

Nick Fuentes: Well, you know, a big part of it is I had a lot of addiction in my family, you know. My grandfather was an alcoholic, committed suicide. Uncle died from an overdose from crack cocaine. My mom, two of her uncles, heroin addicts for their entire lives. And I just devastated my family, devastated both of my parents. And so I know I have that addictive personality and probably have the genetics for it. And not only that, but I like being rational. I like having my sober mind. I think that's actually a sacred thing to have unimpaired reason. So the thought of losing control and even being tempted to get into, you know, worse things, I just thought it's just not worth the risk. So it's just never for me.

Hunter Biden: Well, how much, by the way, sorry, do we have time? Is it, how much do you think COVID warped not just your generation, but everybody? I have this theory that there was this thing that broke for us with COVID and that nobody's really come to terms with how traumatic that was for everyone.

Nick Fuentes: And especially for the younger generations. I think severely less for the older generations, but for the younger people missing the graduations, missing critical years in school. That's when the socialization happens. That's when you learn to get along. And so you think about how this generation's going to grow up having two to three lost years, you know, no sports, no school, no extracurriculars, vacations. It's devastating. And we already had a problem with that isolation, social dislocation, loneliness. I can't even imagine. So it's going to be devastating, I think. But that's a lockdown.

Andrew Callaghan: So maybe if you're watching this video after this, you know, put your phone or computer away, go outside and make a friend, just do anything but scroll to the next video. Back in the day during Nickelodeon, they had go outside day. Oh, yeah. You know, I feel like we need like one day a week where it's mandated in a tech oligarch sense that no one can go on their phone or use the computer.

Hunter Biden: Man, I would love that. I mean, that's one thing is the one thing we could all agree on. The way I say it now is you're all carrying around a bag of heroin in your pocket. Everybody is. And it's probably even more dangerous in some ways. Would either of you guys ever run for office? Did you ask me for real? Yeah. No, I think that politics, the way that my dad engaged in it, and that I'm obviously incredibly biased, is an incredibly noble thing. But that's not what my head is in terms of what I want to do. I want to reach. My whole thing is, is that forget all of this. I want to reach a million people in addiction. I think one of the biggest things about addiction and one of the reasons why it continues to be this epidemic is that we don't talk about it. Is that you don't even talk about it and run a dinner table. And what you realize, if you're coming from my particular unique situation, is that everybody comes to me and they tell me their story. And sharing that is like, breaks that cycle of shame. And so I want to reach a million people in addiction. How about you, Nick? Was you ever run for office?

Nick Fuentes: I don't think so, no. Just because you can't, I don't think you can fully be authentic when you're running for office because you, it's a different role. And I think my role, they say, according to the Overton window idea. Ideas that are inside the Overton window are ideas that are politically safe. The public is ready to accept them. They say that if you want to change people's opinions and what they consider acceptable, you kind of have to be the first of the punch and maybe consider the bad person or evil or whatever in order to promote your view. And so that just does a landed self to that kind of politics. So I think to protect my own integrity and authenticity of the message, I have to not run for office.

Hunter Biden: She will be just in. We just made probably the entire audience happy. One half, it's glad I'm not running. The other half is really glad he's not running.

Andrew Callaghan: Well, if not you guys then, is there any candidate or perspective candidate that you feel like could run in 2028 that would have a fair shot that y'all support?

Nick Fuentes: Nobody in particular for me. I honestly, I haven't really been to impressed with who's come out of the Republican party. So I'm hoping there'll just be somebody we haven't heard of, somebody maybe that hasn't been in office before.

Hunter Biden: He's voting for Gavin Newsom in 2028.

Nick Fuentes: That's right, yeah. Well, if it's new some advance,

Andrew Callaghan: I certainly think about it. How about you, anybody that you know?

Hunter Biden: It's a twinkling your eye. No, I think that there are a lot of people. I mean, I know that you think that you're gonna laugh at me, but I personally like Gavin Newsom a lot. I think that he's authentic in those cities, whether you agree with them or not. Thomas Massey's principal stand as it relates to the Epstein files, was incredibly courageous.

Thomas Massie clip: Do not let the Senate muck this bill up. I am sorry if one of your billionaire donors is gonna get embarrassed because he went to Ray Pylon.

Hunter Biden: And that's why he's not gonna be a congressman anymore. But that's why you know, he could potentially make a really strong national candidate.

Andrew Callaghan: And you guys think America will exist in a post Epstein capture freeway?

Nick Fuentes: Will America exist?

Andrew Callaghan: Yeah, like, you know, will America survive the current power structures strangle hold on the media, the political system, and all public affairs?

Nick Fuentes: I don't know. I think AI is gonna really be transformative. It's interesting. Nobody seems to be talking about that. Transformative in what sense, like for bad? Concentration, a power. That's the biggest, single biggest. And you know what? I'm actually on the liberal side on this with Anthropic over the, let's say, you know, because there's this battle between these effective altruists, effective accelerationists. And I really am nervous about what's gonna happen, especially in the next four years, because they're racing towards this artificial general intelligence, artificial superintelligence. And that without a doubt is gonna be the single biggest influence on the country. And so I'm really worried about that. And what about that concern? Do you think it's surveillance? It's the concentration of power in the hands of whoever controls it. Whichever firm is the one to develop ASI, that could confer dictatorial-like powers upon the CEO of that company. Whether that's Sam Altman or Dario, you know, if the artificial intelligence is aligned with its creator, that person will become the most powerful person in the history of mankind. On that day.

Hunter Biden: It's almost the inherent truth in my opinion. What he just said is that the greatest leap and human evolution is gonna happen within our lifetimes. AGI, let alone, you know, superintelligence, is everything that we think about the way in which we exist in the world completely changes. And I don't think that that's in any way hypervely. And if you listen to the people that are developing these technologies right now, they are the most alarmist.

Sam Altman clip: I think AGI will probably most likely sort of lead to the end of the world.

Hunter Biden: If you wanna know what life's like when you're not the apex intelligence, ask a chicken. And now, by the way, I think that there is an enormous possibility for incredibly beneficial things to society, like being able to cure cancer. I just think of this one thing. Everything that AGI has built on is ours, belongs to you, and you, and you, all the way back through the human civilization. That's what they're stealing from us. And they're putting it into the hands of literally a handful of people, all of that human knowledge and the value that comes from it. And I think that that's ours. So any AGI that is developed, particularly because AGI, it should be communal. It should be shared in the, not just the beneficial offshoot of it, but the actual money of it should be shared.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think it's like nuclear bombs, but it's also a commodity at the same time. The weapons potential, the economic potential, I think that's gonna be the biggest thing. And I hope on some level that liberals win that argument because, you know, what Trump is doing with the Pentagon, Anthropic, and Open AI, the way they're handling it is so reckless and sloppy and just honestly unbelievable. So we need some adults in the room on that one.

Andrew Callaghan: Well, it's been a great conversation. I appreciate you guys for coming. You guys have any final questions you wanna ask to each other or maybe a message you wanna give to the American people.

Hunter Biden: I still believe in America, and I truly believe in these conversations. And I think everyone that's watching would think that I would not want to sit down with them. And this I guess what I'm getting back with you is that I hope you see the humanity of me. And so when the way that you talk in the future takes that into consideration. And what I'll do is I will see the humanity in you.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah, I agree. I think it was a great conversation. And I think that, you know, we have to come together on the things that we agree on, which is, for example, that we love the country. We both believe in America. We both want the country to succeed. And I'd like what you said that we see the fundamental humanity in each other. And I think that, you know, especially in the events of the last year, the killing a Charlie Kirk, you realize that's actually not something that people on both sides share. I think there's people on the right and the left that don't see the humanity in the other side. And so maybe that's the new consensus or that's where you can come together as on the basis that, you know, we disagree on fundamental issues and even sometimes it gets heated. Now we yell at each other, but that we do ultimately want the best for each other. We love each other. We want the country to succeed. And I think that's a starting point for any solution and any conversation. All right, American brothers. Thank you guys so much for your time.

Andrew Callaghan: I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. After interviewing Hunter and Nick about a variety of contentious topics, not limited to, but including the Iran war and ongoing conflict in the Middle East, I thought to myself, you know what? Maybe I should just go. Maybe I should apply for a visa from the IRGC and fly to Tehran to go to a death to America rally, after which I'll scour the scene to find the underground culture of the city and figure out how unveiled Tehran street folks actually feel about the government and eat some great food and see some sights while I'm at it. So I did just that with the help of the OG Vice News Group. If you guys want to see our extensive coverage captured in Iran, go to our Patreon at www.patreon.com slash channel five. If I had it my way, everything would be free. But hiring fixers, renting equipment, traveling across the world and fighting lawsuits against powerful people is very, very expensive and time consuming, so we need your support. Channel five, as mentioned, is a totally independent crowdfunded newsroom. We can only make money three ways. Merchandise, limited ad rates, and of course, Patreon. We're a sizable army of real ones, pay five bucks a month to get access to an entire catalog of uncensored, early exclusive and crazy ass content. So if you want to support us and see more, again, it's www.patreon.com slash channel five. I'm gonna put the link in the pinned comment and description box of this video. Have a great day.

clip: Channel five live, world wide, Hollywood and vibe.

Donald Trump clip: Fuck the authority, channel five news. Channel 55, we don't fuck with costars. And five is the best number.

Nick Fuentes: Yeah!

Transcript

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Hunter Biden [00:00] You said you want to ask me, why are you a Nazi? Inclusion has been our greatest strength. Diversity has been our greatest strength. White people do feel like we are being boxed out. A 26 year old white kid doesn't feel like he has access because he's been canceled in the problem is black people. I didn't say the problem's black people. Well, you just did, Nick. You just said... I said the problem is crime.

Nick Fuentes [00:20] And we know who's doing the crime in Chicago. Do you get what I'm saying? Yes. About the Holocaust things. Oh, about that. We get to say whatever we want on the internet. We get to deny the Holocaust. As far as Jews are concerned in general, I think that everybody in the country should be treated with dignity and respect and have their civil rights. Look, what do you think about somebody like Mom Donnie? Personally, I don't like him. Like, for example, on 4th of July, when he takes the opportunity to sit there with, let's be honest, not a single white person.

Hunter Biden [00:45] What about fucking Donald Trump? There's no ideological court Donald Trump? No, I agree with you. Donnie, you're got the largest loan ever given by the Department of Defense.

Nick Fuentes [00:54] Vance owes his entire political career to Peter Teal, whichever firm is the one to develop ASI, that could confer dictatorial-like powers upon the CEO of that company.

Hunter Biden [01:04] Everything that we think about the way in which we exist in the world completely changed it.

Nick Fuentes [01:08] Increasingly, with Uber, Airbnb, banking apps, you can't live your life without the tech platform.

Hunter Biden [01:13] Everything that AI's built on is ours. That's what they're stealing from us. I want to find common ground of how much of a shithead Donald Trump is. We can get there, OK?

Andrew Callaghan [01:24] The first question that I had whenever I caught when that you wanted to do an interview like this is why now, what made you want to sit down for this kind of interview?

Nick Fuentes [01:32] Well, I think it's an interesting conversation to have all of us here. And I think it's a moment in our country when there's a lot of realignment. I think that people recognize, especially in the past couple of years, I'm like a non-conventional critic, maybe, of what's happening. And so I think it'll be an interesting productive conversation. I think it'll be different.

Andrew Callaghan [01:52] But I mean, specifically, because we kind of share a publicist, I heard that you wanted to kind of clear up. OK. We have a publicist that you hit up. And you said that you wanted to talk to someone who would give you kind of a fair shot to clear up some things and maybe some misconceptions about you and the things you believe.

Nick Fuentes [02:07] Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think that I'm somebody who, I think, like you, actually, maybe we have this in common, is kind of pigeonholed in a certain way for things that we've done in the past or things that we've said. I'm a crackhead.

Hunter Biden [02:19] But I'm racist, right? I got a pigeonhole there. Mine is true, yeah.

Nick Fuentes [02:23] Mine's a little true, maybe a little, no. But yeah, so I think it'd be good to clear up some of the misrepresentations and put out something accurate.

Andrew Callaghan [02:32] So what do you think is the most misrepresenting thing about you?

Nick Fuentes [02:35] Well, I think really the whole image everybody has about me. When you mentioned me, I think on a recent show, you said you want to ask me, why are you a Nazi? And that's how everybody knows me. Everybody thinks of me as white supremacist Nazi. And I don't think that's really true at all. I think that we definitely have different values. I mean, you're more from the left. I'm more from the right. But I don't think I'm a hater. I'm not a hateful person. It is Hyal Hitler Friday. F**k up. Hyal Hitler. All my f**k is Nazis. Morgan Wittler. Hitler was very f**king cool. Yes, I do.

Andrew Callaghan [03:09] And I'm tired of pretending he's not. So what's the thing about, I guess, traditional Nazis that you think you disagree with the most?

Nick Fuentes [03:14] Well, it's a non-Christian ideology. So, I mean, look, I believe that race is real as the Nazis did. But I don't think it utterly defines a person. As a Christian, I think, we're all creative beings. I do believe there's such a thing as a universal human community. And so I think it's a cruel ideology. I've said this on my show, by the way. But I mean, that would maybe be the fundamental. Did you always show that way? Always, yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Callaghan [03:39] So even whenever you were younger and stuff?

Nick Fuentes [03:41] I did. But, you know, you got to recognize times of change. 10 years ago, we had a totally different political world. The regulation and policing of speech. You know, what you would call wokeness, I think, was at an all-time high when I got started. As a very young man.

Hunter Biden [03:56] Wait, what would you would call wokeness?

Nick Fuentes [03:57] Yes. Well, and I think, I mean, would you not say there were some excesses maybe in those days?

Hunter Biden [04:03] Yeah, you know, in those days that I wasn't doing too well. So I wasn't paying much attention. Anyway, I would love to hear, and I'm not asking you to like, retract everything that you've ever said and all that, you know, or anything. But I said that I would love to talk to you because number one, I told you this, is that I think you're really smart. And I think that with that comes in a real responsibility. And you have an audience. And I have a friend whose son is my daughter's age, you know, maybe 28, you know, your age. And he's really smart. And he is a big fan of yours. And so by virtue of the relationship, I got to learn what it is that he, why he is a fan of yours. And none of it has to do with, I would hope you agree, like really egregious things that you've said in the past about the Holocaust or about, you know.

Nick Fuentes [04:59] Did the Jews ever talk about the 100 million whites that died in World War II? Or do they just bitch and moan about the so-called 6 million Jews that died? And so it's just nice to poke holes in it and say, it's not 6 million. 6 million? I don't think so.

Hunter Biden [05:11] And I don't even know. I think I've heard you since kind of rescind a lot of that.

Nick Fuentes [05:16] You can see that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Possibly more. Possibly we, you know, we're discovering all the time. So it could maybe even be more than that.

Hunter Biden [05:23] But what he agrees with is kind of the anger, the anger about the situation that particular your generation finds yourself in. I know that to be real. And I think that they're, you know, maybe my reasons for recognizing that anger is being legitimate and my targets are different than yours. I just wanted to hear from you. When you say you're canceled, you're canceled by the right in 2016. Yes. I almost felt like in preparing to meet you now is that your reaction to that was to just dig deeper and deeper into kind of the outsider kind of radical say anything for the purpose of generating, you know, the attention to building an audience. Is that true? And it's not an accusation. I really mean it. I want this to be a conversation as much as possible.

Nick Fuentes [06:13] I mean, that's, there's certainly some truth to that. But I think that might be overstating it a little bit because I really got canceled by the right and the left. Yeah. And back in those days in 2017, you had these far left journalists at Huffington Post, right wing watch, ADL, SPLC. And I really believe they were on a mission to find extremist rhetoric, the white nationalist neo-Nazi boogie man, all that kind of stuff. And they would look at someone like myself 18. And if I was being serious or joking, things taken out of context, they would clip it, post it, and they wanted me to be the villain. And I think they wanted a lot of people to be the villain. I think the left in a way kind of created this climate where I think they pushed a lot of people farther to the right.

Hunter Biden [06:55] No, by the way, that's very well, maybe true. But you gain a lot of ammunition. That's true. I mean, I hope that some of those things that you said in the past are not things that you believed in that are, you meant just to engender like a really radical kind of response. I mean, is that true or not?

Nick Fuentes [07:18] Well, you know, again, I think that back in those days, you could not say anything in 2017, 2018. Cancel culture was so an overdrive. Any joke, any edge lording, anything like that, they would, first of all, there's no sense. See, I'm so old, I don't know.

Andrew Callaghan [07:34] Okay, with the break it down for you, so the dawn of wokeness as it's known today, I think was in like the post Trump era, after Trump won the election in 2016, there was a big movement to de-platform and kind of push away those who, I guess the left feel like had galvanized them into the presidency. So there was this big idea that if you push people off mainstream social media platforms, they would go away. Now we know through Trump's reelection, that's not even true. But at the time, that was the mantra. Problematic viewpoints needed to be silenced, tucked away somewhere, and they would just sort of die in isolation. So I think that that was the climate where you first got started 2017. That time period was like crucial for getting people off mainstream platforms. Is that correct?

Nick Fuentes [08:10] Yeah, and I would say that you got to get into the psychology of those days. It felt like anybody that wasn't on board with the most progressive agenda had no options. There was just no alternative. It was going to be progressive, liberal, feminist, BLM, all that kind of stuff. And if you were to the right of John McCain, you're no platformed, censored, banned from all the platforms, you're fired from your job, you're ostracized socially. And I think what happened really in 2021, when Trump got banned from the platforms, is it felt like 70 million people got canceled. 70 million people had voted for Trump, or 60, 70 million people, we were all felt like, oh, so if Trump is out of politics and we're all banned from the platforms, then how is there any redress for our grievances? Do we just have to shut up and get with the program and we're all going to be progressive? And I think that that drove people to a far more radical place, where people said, well, what really is a solution? We can't talk, we can't express ourselves. We can't participate in the process or run for office. And I was one of the people saying that's exactly what's going to happen. It's going to drive people to extremism. If you don't talk, if people don't feel like they have a seat at the table and in franchisement, I think then they start exploring options outside the system, outside of the political process, the democratic process. So I think it self-inflicted in many ways.

Andrew Callaghan [09:25] So you feel like after the Massey platforming in 2021, whenever people on the right got pushed to platforms like parlor, gab, rumble, et cetera, the lack of discourse and like the political singularity of those platforms created more extremism.

Nick Fuentes [09:37] Absolutely, absolutely, because look, you take Trump off of Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and I predicted this in 21, I said, watch, you're going to see alternative social media rise because some venture capitalists are going to see there's a huge market of 70 million people that are going to follow Trump, because Trump is no platformed. And that's exactly what happened. Rubble blew up, Elon bought Twitter, and what happened when you had total free speech on these platforms? Well, Twitter now resembles 4chan. And now, you know, there's no gatekeepers. And I think it did push people in a radical direction. And honestly, people are even blowing past me. Now there's like mainstream, normy types that are even blowing past me in terms of how radical they are. People start saying things like, there's no political solution, there's going to be a civil war, we need a revolution. And I think that's because the message from the left was, you're crushed. You have no options, you can't win. There's no alternative. Trump is going to be indicted and charged and can't run. You can't be on Twitter, you can have a job. And so people started to say, okay, well, you know, we still exist. We're still here, we still have these concerns. What do we do now? And then people start to say, well, we need a revolution. And I'm one of the only people saying, no, we should still engage in the process and talk with each other. And it's not all one sided. I think there's problems on the left and the right, but I certainly think it takes two to take.

Hunter Biden [10:54] Okay, so there, we agree. I think that there are problems on the left and the right. And I don't disagree with some of the things that you just said. I guess it just came to a different conclusion that there are some things that people should be de-platform for. Not that they can't say it, where they want to say it, but I think that it's a right of anybody. Okay, top three things, what do you think? There's a difference between being able to say that you're proud of your white heritage and also being just a flat-out racist. I think that there's a difference between saying, you're proud of your Christian heritage and the white culture from what you come from and Nazis. Or that you adopt the Naziism as a legitimate ideology. I think that there's a difference between saying that you disagree with the United States policy as it relates to Israel and saying that the Holocaust didn't exist.

Nick Fuentes [11:41] Now it's like, mom, dad, Hitler was awesome. Hitler was right, and Holocaust didn't happen. And my parents were like, we cannot believe.

Hunter Biden [11:52] Those would be top three things in my mind. I know that you believe that some people took you out of context, and I do agree. Look, I'm both the right and the left. There are these gatekeepers, 100%. And look at me, mainstream press just destroyed me for seven years without any real reflection about what they were doing. I do think that some of those things are legitimate reasons to say, we don't want you on a commercial platform. Would you agree with that? You just said, for instance, people calling for an armed revolution, like people calling for actual violence. You're opposed to it. Oh, absolutely.

Nick Fuentes [12:35] I'm against violence, and I do think those are one of the legitimate things that should be taken from the platform. There's a lot of this stuff on social media I don't agree with, but again, what started to happen is there was this editorial censorship where certain ideas were banned. And they just, it was such a broad brush, and also totally opaque and ad hoc. You'd be on YouTube, like I was, for example, they banned me for life and didn't even get me a reason. Not a specific quote, not a specific infraction, and so you don't know what the rules are. You don't know what the process is. They just take you down, and especially now, when everything is digital. That's not just the social platforms. It's the other ones like Uber, Airbnb, whatever. It feels like you're being denied almost something like a civil right. These, the social platforms are the modern public square. Increasingly with Uber, Airbnb, the banking apps, you can't live your life without the tech platforms. And it felt like if you just simply had the wrong opinions, or you were the wrong kind of person, you were being deprived of like a basic civil right or being able to participate in society. So, you know, and I think maybe that's an area of collaboration where we recognize maybe it is a civil right to use the digital platforms, but here are the rules. Here's what you can say. Here's what you can't say. Here's the process. Maybe there's a reconciliation mechanism, but I mean, the censorship was just out of control. I don't think anyone disagrees. There's a reasonable limit though.

Hunter Biden [13:56] Yeah, no, I guess what I was saying is that I don't see that as a result of left wing or right wing ideology. I view that kind of level of de-platform. Look, I was debanked. I was debanked before I was ever even charged with anything. I lost every bank account. It took me nine months once they, you know, the Trump administration, you know, said that they were starting an investigation into me to be able to actually get a bank account again. And I still don't want to tell you the bank because tomorrow they make you bank me again. But my point is, is that those people are incredibly identifiable. I keep, like I've been talking and going around and I say things like, I don't think we are nearly as divided as they're telling us we are. Because I do believe that there is, there are an identifiable group of people that are responsible for an enormous amount of the discordant division because they make money off of it. I think that these social media companies that are controlled by what, three, four, five, you know, individuals have made clear that they only care about one thing. They only care about how much money they can produce for themselves and, you know, the people that hold stocks in their company. Even to the degree where we know for certain that they're driving teenage girls to the highest levels of suicide by a factor, like exponential factors, directly related to the content that they're being pushed and they won't do anything about it, right? And so, to the same degree, I think they, you know, a lot of what you call wokeness was a, maybe an illegitimate, but a financial decision based on a lot of these corporate side-off, maybe. Corporate side-off. Thank you. I mean, by the way, exactly, you know, I mean.

Andrew Callaghan [15:42] I just wanted to make up real quick. So you talked about certain people going too far, about two and a half months ago, I visited a white's only community in Hardy, Arkansas. And I don't know why, I guess coming from like a more like left wing place, I'm from Seattle, I kind of assumed there was like a united front on the right for some reason. So I'm out there, I'm chilling with these dudes, they're like sword fighting, having barbecues. It was, I mean, the overall was a good time for them. I had a hard time connecting with them because I don't agree with them, but it's all good. I was having fun for a couple of days. And then like right as I was there, I guess you had hit them up on an X or something and said like, hey, I don't wanna associate with you guys. What happened there?

Nick Fuentes [16:11] Well, that was really more of a personal disagreement with the guy that founded it. But I do think it's an interesting project, and it's interesting that that got so much pushback, this white's only community because you know what? If you go to a lot of these different neighborhoods in major cities, there are ethnic enclaves. And it's not like there's an explicit rule that you have to be a certain ethnicity, but we all know in Chicago, in New York, in LA, you've got certain neighborhoods where it is, 80, 90% one ethnicity. And I think there's a lot of white people that say, we kinda want something similar. I don't think there's anything.

Hunter Biden [16:44] For next one, let's just talk about it. One, okay, let's back up.

Andrew Callaghan [16:46] If you wanna talk about the histories of New York and Chicago, I feel like that was also a conscious decision that was made like after the Civil Rights Act.

Hunter Biden [16:52] I tell you what, a black's only, it's in Cabrini Green, where Mayor Daley made everybody that was black, living the Cabrini Green. I mean, it wasn't by choice. It's not by choice that these ethnic enclaves are 80 or 90% whatever that ethnicity is, it's because that's the only place in which they had an opportunity to live unbothered, or where they were told that they had to live, because of the historical fact that they could not move into other neighborhoods. You could not move into parts of South Chicago without being stoned, literally, right? And so it's not as if those ethnic enclaves are there by choice. And so that...

Andrew Callaghan [17:33] Also, ethnic enclaves do exist for like specific variations of different Europeans. Like, you know, there is places that are chocked, like South Philly is full of a time.

Hunter Biden [17:40] There's little Italy, and there's little crap.

Andrew Callaghan [17:43] I think the issue, what I always, like, that what confused me the most about the white's only community is like, there's just so many different kinds of white people in America. You know, so like to establish a unified white culture, with a place so diverse and full of like, different regional flavors, just kind of felt confusing to me. Because that can mean a different thing, depending on what part of the country, what European enclave you originated from. Like, where Irish people from the Philly area. Can you compare that to like, you know, surfers in San Diego, or even like, you know, Italian Americans in Staten Island? I don't know, everything just feels so different. So when I got there, I was trying to identify what they meant by white culture. It wasn't really based on shared, like, cultural practices, but more the exclusion of people who weren't white. So they weren't like stoked on being European necessarily. They were more just like, oh, we're here because those people aren't here. So it just kind of felt more negative than constructive.

Nick Fuentes [18:25] Yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm not really involved with that project in particular, but I think that, look, I mean, you talk about the anger that's out there in the frustration. I think part of the frustration, let's be honest, is that white people do feel like we are being boxed out in major cities in the country. And it feels like, look, there's a little Haiti and there's these various ethnic enclaves where you get that local culture and they do their, you know, cultural festivals and that sort of thing. And white people feel like they're being pushed out and they want a space where things are familiar.

Hunter Biden [18:54] Do you feel the same way about the Italian festival that happens in every city? Well, here's a good example. So, or say Patrick's Day?

Nick Fuentes [19:01] Well, you know, there's no Irish neighborhood in Chicago. Little Italy. Sure there is. I mean, there's some remnant and rich poor, yeah.

Andrew Callaghan [19:08] It's important to note that, like, and I'm not trying to get into, like a shouting match here, but like, you know, as a family who did, coming from a family who didn't leave Philadelphia in the 60s because of black migration from the South after the Silver Rights Act was passed, there was a sort of like mass flight of white people into the suburbs and that kind of led to a homogenization of different cultures because they rush so fast to build these identical strip mall suburbs that it was very hard to maintain cultural bonds that made different European and white neighborhoods unique around like the 1950s and before. So, I feel like the mass suburbanization is also a big factor that led to those, like, cultural bonds breaking.

Nick Fuentes [19:40] Yeah, but why did that happen? I mean, a lot of the suburbanization is because of the race riots in the 1960s, people moved out because of the violence. You know, my grandfather was in the National Garden, Chicago when after MLK got assassinated, the whole West Sideburn to the ground. And people didn't want to be around that. Why were the riots? Yeah, MLK, Jr. was assassinated. Yeah. Yeah. And so does that justify burning down the city?

Hunter Biden [20:04] No, I don't say it's just a phrase. But it sure justifies an enormous amount of the anger, the same kind of anger that you feel about being left out, the same kind of anger that you're expressing right now about the idea that you culturally irrelevant, that you don't have a place in society. Imagine if you were a 26 year old black man in 1968 and saw your hero be assassinated. I want to be done with that.

Nick Fuentes [20:27] I saw Trump get shot in the air and did he? And I saw Charlie Kirk get shot and I didn't see any cities get burned down. It's funny.

Hunter Biden [20:33] I think it's a very, very, very different thing. I think it's absolutely very different.

Nick Fuentes [20:36] Charlie Kirk got shot in the neck. Yeah. And liberal celebrated all over social media by Tyler Robinson. Yeah. Who is what? Who is some liberal guy?

Hunter Biden [20:45] He is. Mm-hmm. He's got a transgender boyfriend. So that makes him liberal? Because he's transgender, because he's gay.

Nick Fuentes [20:53] Well, because he's got a transgender boyfriend, yeah. I think so. It makes him liberal. I think he was liberal, yeah.

Hunter Biden [20:59] OK. Well, he didn't come from a liberal family. He didn't come from a liberal enclave. He didn't come from a liberal background. He's not a minority. He was a Mormon, correct? And grew up at a Mormon household. And he went to a largely Mormon college. And he ended up committing an act of violence according to the FBI and the authorities in Utah that charged him. How does that, in any way, compare to what we're talking about? I'm not justifying the violence that occurred after the death of Martin Luther King. But you're saying that that person, this Tyler, whoever his name is, was disenfranchised as the African-American community in 1968 in inner cities? Well, the question is who we want to live around.

Nick Fuentes [21:44] I'm not living around blacks. Sorry. I want white kids. And I don't want my white kids bringing home black people to marry. And in the 1960s, the West Side burns down. We don't want to live around that. We don't want to live around a city that's not what happened.

Hunter Biden [21:57] That's not when the white flag happened. It is. It was a big response to it, absolutely. 100% not. Absolutely. You make these historical connections that don't exist. Part of it was potentially. But before that, what Mary Daley did is made Chicago the most segregated city in the entire United States, other than Boston. When you would come from the South to Chicago, African-Americans from the South, blacks in the South, coming to Chicago would say that Chicago was twice the level of segregation and racism that occurred in the South. And so it wasn't as if you're coming into a situation in which you're feeling in any way enfranchised by the community and the situation that you're in. And as many people left simply because of the idea that someone was black moving into their neighborhood as the violence that occurred after the assassination of Martin Luther King. So the numbers actually pre-1968 when King was shot, you had more people leave the city because of the desegregation, because of the 1964 Civil Rights Act than you did after the riots.

Nick Fuentes [23:02] I think that's just not true. I think that the race riots were a huge driver of white flight to the suburbs. I think it's just dishonest to say that's not the case.

Hunter Biden [23:09] Okay, so what's your point about all of this?

Nick Fuentes [23:11] Well, we're talking about where people want to live.

Hunter Biden [23:13] Yeah, I know. So like in 2026,

Nick Fuentes [23:16] well, okay, how about in 2020, when Minneapolis burned to the ground, or how about in the summer of 2020 in Chicago? Minneapolis didn't burn to the ground.

Hunter Biden [23:24] It didn't? No. I mean, there would be a part of the destroyer.

Andrew Callaghan [23:28] If you guys need a physical witness to what happened in Minneapolis, there were many structures that burned to the ground. Not the city, but there was, I would say, between 40 to 50 buildings off of Lake Street in the south side that did burn to the ground. But the most of the city was intact, but it was quite an intense situation.

Nick Fuentes [23:42] People don't want to live around that. People don't want to live around that. You know, in Chicago, it rolled on into the summer and it wasn't, you know, let's say the anger of the oppressed and the disenfranchised. So these were looting.

Hunter Biden [23:54] They were looting in car testing. The criminals. Are you saying that the problem with the 26 year old white kid living in in suburbia outside of Chicago, and his feeling of being disenfranchised is because there was looting and rioting in Minneapolis by black people. And it's black people that are doing it.

Nick Fuentes [24:13] Yeah. The problem with Austin Metcalfe was that he got stabbed and that could attract meat. And the problem with our city in Chicago was that the magnificent mile is gone. And the part of our place is gone because of all the crime.

Hunter Biden [24:24] Nick, in the time of the entire generation of African-Americans is that they've been getting killed by cops for decades. What are you talking about, Nick? Listen, commit crime. And listen, listen, it's not. Nick, what? It's not true. It's not true. Are you saying the police brutality as it relates to racism in the police force in the way in which police treat African-Americans? Nick, you could grow up here like I did between Momikin and Philadelphia. And if you are a black dentist and you lived in Momikin and you commuted to Philadelphia, the chances of you being pulled over by a state trooper, either Delaware or in Pennsylvania, are about 50 times that would be if it was a white guy. 50 times. And so what you're trying to tell me is that the problem in America right now is that a 26-year-old white kid who lives in suburban Chicago doesn't feel like he has access because he's been canceled or he's been woke and the problem is black people. I didn't say the problem's black people. Well, you just did, Nick.

Nick Fuentes [25:23] You just said that. The problem is crime. And we know who's doing the crime in Chicago. The car jackings, shootings, team takeovers. We know why there's no business on the mag mile anymore. And it's because they steal cars, they drive them through windows and listen. Black people are some of the biggest victims of the black crime. Well, we're not allowed to talk about it because of the racial dimensions.

Hunter Biden [25:41] We should be not allowed to talk about it. We're talking about it right here. You have a platform with millions of people listening to you, Nick.

Nick Fuentes [25:46] I think so. Well, after Elon had to buy Twitter and open it up. It wasn't like that before. I was banned from everything for many years. So no, you weren't allowed it. You're right. We can talk about it now, but that's only because a good guy's won.

Andrew Callaghan [25:57] Hey, and what's up, guys? There's something I forgot to tell you about. We also just launched our own streaming platform called c5.now. We have five films on there right now. Film number one, the art of protest. Maybe by the homies over at Indicline. We interviewed a few months back. Film two, rat film by Theo Anthony, set in Baltimore, investigates the lives and times of the rodent population through the eyes of the people who love the rats of Baltimore, study the rats of Baltimore, or are paid to execute and trap the rodents of charm city. Documentary number three, starcash by Haley Garrigas, an amazing Wall Street documentary that follows the lives of market predictors. That's right, it's stock analysts who stare at the planets to figure out what's going to happen with the money. Documentary number four, it's called Physician of Heal Dice Self by director Asher Penn, a fascinating lifelong profile featuring tons of archival footage, documenting a physician, psychiatrist, philosopher, sorcerer of the mind, named Godwormat, very influential dude, as far as addiction and trauma and healing, he's about as good as it gets. He's the top dog in that realm. So check that documentary out. Documentary number five is my own, had to put my own sauce on there to get the train moving. It is called Finding Orson, a 45 minute documentary that I shot over the course of a year and a half, trying to reunite a beloved friend and elderly community member named Rick Shore with his lost parrot named Orson. Maybe he's just too embarrassed to admit that he doesn't want the bird anymore. So those are the five films on c5.now. A totally independent, creator residual forward, power to the people documentary platform, not gate kept by Hollywood. And what's unique about c5.now is that unlike the major studios, we're not afraid to take a risk and of course pay creators fairly. The link is in the pinned comment and description box of this video. And most importantly, it's not just a website. It's an app on your phone and a smart TV app. So get your popcorn, get your remote, sit down. It's time to learn. I'll see you guys soon. See you guys soon.

Hunter Biden [28:00] You went from being banned on Twitter to being on YouTube to creating an attention. I know you're not, but now you have kick and now you have all of these other things. You have an enormous platform. I want to find common ground of how much of a shit head Donald Trump is. We can get there. True. I don't, what I don't understand is how you didn't recognize that in 2016, how you didn't recognize that in 2020, and how you didn't recognize that in 2024. Because Donald Trump hasn't changed. Donald Trump hasn't changed at all. Donald Trump has been Donald Trump since he came out of the womb of a woman that was an immigrant to this country. And so what I wanna know though, is that I don't know how we get past this idea that the biggest problem that you have, that with your personal situation, and how you extrapolate that to the situation of other white kids that are your age, that feel disenfranchised, that feel left out, that feel they don't have a shot at the American dream, is because of black and brown people, of because of Mexicans, because of Venezuelans, because of Haitians, because of, it's always other Nick with you. It seems to me, and I've listened to a lot of the stuff. It's always them. We need to build a wall. Where's the wall, Nick? He never built a wall. Why'd you vote for him in 2020? Why'd you vote for him in 2024? I didn't vote for him in 2024, okay. My point being, is that whenever you identify your problem as being something that is other, that you can point to, that's a minority, that is a group of people, that's the Jews, it's the, I mean, before, remember, all of us, it was the Irish Catholics, who all are committing the crime, who weren't allowed into bars, who weren't allowed into, because you know why? Because they were dirty, poor, non-Europeans, they were Irish. Every time it's wrong, every time history is proven that that to be wrong in the United States of America. Every time. Inclusion has been our greatest strength. Diversity has been our greatest strength. And I hear you talk about this idea of white culture, what fucking white culture you're talking about, man? What literally, what?

Nick Fuentes [30:00] Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, weren't Philadelphia, the founding fathers. Yeah.

Hunter Biden [30:05] That's your white culture. How about the time of Monte Cristo? Would you consider that part of our white culture? Sure. Okay. Well, it was written by a black man in France in 1700. In a milieu of European civilization. So what? Because you're picking out one example. It really is. It really is. It really is. That's, listen. Nick, I'm not.

Andrew Callaghan [30:23] I really am not. Hey guys, I think we're reaching what's called a rock in a hard place. Let's talk about it in real life.

Hunter Biden [30:29] Let me respond to this, because you're telling me I'm always blaming the other. No, no, Nick, for real, for real. Here's the thing, is that the way that you talk and throw out these historical facts, which, by the way, aren't fucking facts. Okay. Which ones are our facts? As it relates to the Civil Rights Movement in 1968 and the reason why we are on the problem that we're in is because the Civil Rights Act had passed in 1964, Dr. Martin Luther King was killed and shot by a white racist, white supremacist in 1968 on a balcony of a motel. That's the root of our trouble because an entire people that have been disenfranchised and enslaved for over 400 years. We're sick of hearing about that though. It's 2026. You may be sick of hearing about it, but you know what? They aren't. And I'll tell you what, Nick. Here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. It's America. But, Nick, you keep, you can say stuff like that. Okay, without having to say it like that. And we, look, this is not how it started though. This is a legitimate argument, but it's,

Andrew Callaghan [31:25] oh, Nick. Guys, Nick, Hunter, what do you guys make of the concept of community collapse? Have you guys heard of this? No. So it's got none to erase, it's got none to do with money, but this is kind of a crazy stat. So in 2019 before COVID, 76% of Americans said they were a part of an in-person community that gave them some kind of value. After COVID, and this year, it was 19%. So I think that politics and race aside, one of the biggest issues is the collapse of social bonds, third spaces, communities in-person engagement, which comes with loneliness, more time online and more division. I understand that I felt you guys aren't going to agree. I want to talk about what you guys think can be done on an individual and community level to stop people from hating each other and to create more belonging and engagement.

Hunter Biden [32:03] Well, number one, I take this, okay, for real. Podcasting. No, not podcasting. This discussion, for me to be able to sit down with someone who I so vehemently disagree with and find some kind of common ground.

Andrew Callaghan [32:15] I mean, the guy at home, who's watching us on his phone just thinking, I wish I could go outside. I don't know anyone.

Hunter Biden [32:20] Okay, well, here's what I'm talking about. It's all about connection. It is all about actually connecting with people. And I'm not talking about digitally connecting with people anonymously online. I'm talking about actually going out and connecting with people. And I don't have an answer to that. I don't any of us. We are in a, look man, I just think that you are targeting the wrong problem, Nick. I think that our biggest problem right now doesn't have to do with this cultural divide or racial divide or religious divide or the idea that America is becoming less white or culturally relevant anymore. I think our biggest problem is, is literally an oligarchy that is inflaming every single division that we have. And the goal is. And they're out for you, man. Just as much as anybody else. Why not? These platforms that we talk about, that you're not allowed to be on because Elon's on the platform. Elon doesn't give a shit about anything other than one thing. Money. Real quick.

Nick Fuentes [33:16] Money is his money. I don't necessarily even agree with that. Okay, well you may not agree with that. Because you don't want to piss off your mother. Elon doesn't even like me. But I just disagree.

Andrew Callaghan [33:24] You're talking about the oligarchy, right? Like these billionaires, right? Like the goal of corporate capture of these industries is community collapse. They are trying to engineer things to make it anti-social. They want to eliminate every single small business. They want to make everyone a single person shopper, no carpooling, like to be a lonely consumer who only buys things for themselves online and doesn't talk to anyone in real life. That's what they want in real life. Like all this data center shit, like everything they're doing is in a way trying to break up in person engagement. And I feel like for you guys, might be hard to answer because both you guys are what they call like controversial public figures. Like there's places that you, like in 2018, if you were to go to a dive bar and let's say popular bluff Missouri, you would have been in danger. You know what I mean at that time. For you, you were in danger physically in a left wing city. It's just just the truth. So I feel like you guys have been deprived of the ability to have normal lives. You especially, you know what I mean? You in general, but if like, you know, your controversy came a little bit later in life. For you, I feel like you haven't even able to grow up as a normal person. Is that accurate to say?

Nick Fuentes [34:20] Yeah, that's true. Well, and in terms of, you know, building community back and everything like that, you know, the data says that really the loss of society is the fact that we don't encounter people anymore. For example, on your way to work or, you know, in ways that are unexpected. People wake up in their house, which is separate from everybody else. They get in their car by themselves, drive to work by themselves. You know, and then they meet with their colleagues and everything, but then they go right home. Go home, have a beer, watch Netflix until they go to bed. Next day starts all over again. And so, you know, I think it has a lot to do with maybe how we structure the cities. I think honestly a big part of it, there's like this abundance mindset with liberals, liberals want to have prosperity and everything like that. How can you have that when the cities are not safe? I think that one of the ways, for example, if you want to have those encounters that are unplanned or spontaneous, they're going to happen maybe on the subway, on the bus, on your way to work. People don't want to ride the subway anymore. People don't want to ride the bus.

Andrew Callaghan [35:15] They have to feel that, if you look at the data like right now, 2026, I think 2025 had the lowest homicide rate of any year in America for like the past four years. I feel like if you compare data from the 90s, like the cities, I get what you're saying, but the cities I have noticed are a lot safer. They're also, you know, becoming more expensive

Hunter Biden [35:30] is like going to something to do with it. You're absolutely right. And it's really, what you're saying that is impossible to refute, right? Because everybody has an experience with violence or witnessing crime or whether it's just in their local newspaper or not. Is it, I don't think that is anyway limited to only urban environments. I take the top 10 poorest red states in the country and their crime rates are 10 times what many urban centers are.

Andrew Callaghan [35:58] So you'd be comparing West Virginia, a cold country, disenfranchised to like an urban neighborhood, basically.

Hunter Biden [36:03] Yeah, in terms of per capita crime, in terms of per capita murder, in terms of per capita child sexual abuse, yeah. I think the things that people really care about, you know, things like that is their own personal safety. It is not limited to African-American urban or Latino-American urban environments. I know it's not that it exists. Carjackings do happen, but you know where they happen? They happen in Bluxy, Mississippi, just as much as they happen in Chicago. I'm skeptical of that.

Andrew Callaghan [36:29] I mean, I just think the idea of like safety, like safety at risk, crime is no, I feel like media has overblown the level of danger.

Hunter Biden [36:35] You know, everybody's gonna fact check both of us on this. And I, but I agree with you, is that, but my point about it all of it is though, is that you can always point to a reason, Nick. There's never been a time in which there hasn't been crime in major urban areas where you pack a lot of people in. You're right though, is that the difference between us feeling like each other are neighbors and that we can find some common ground, is the fact, you know, you could live in existence now by the time you're 56 years old and never really have to leave your house to make a living, to, you know, you don't go to the community center anymore. And I don't know how to fix that. And I certainly don't know how to fix that.

Andrew Callaghan [37:14] And I think it's back to politics, right? Because community is like an essential human need. If not the most important thing. So when you are deprived of that, you're more likely to look for a radical solution. And be like, everything's broken, we need to try something really out there. So you might embrace something more reactionary on left or right to be like, fuck this, you know, we need something new. And so, and I'm not trying to draw this like male loneliness, like in cell pipeline that the media tries to do all the time. But do you see a connection there between like people being lonely and having less friends and self-cultural choice, taking over community value systems or community engagement and people just like driving to the extreme?

Nick Fuentes [37:46] 100%. I think social dislocation is probably the number one problem of our times. Because you look at the young people and you're right, it is one of those essential human needs is to connect and have that sense of familiarity, to really to be seen, to see and to be seen. And that's something young people don't have. And I think by the way, you look at the way young people socialize and even the mentality, I think a lot of young people have this absolute drive to go to college. Why? It's an extension of high school. And what a high school in college have in common. It's a community. You're in the quad. You can see and be seen. They're sort of like a status reputation. You're constantly involved with other people. And I think everybody young people look at when they graduate from college like falling off a cliff and now life is over. Because now you just have your job, the gym and going back home and that's it. And this is why a lot of young people then want to move to the big cities. Gotta go to New York, gotta go to Chicago or LA where it's happening. And they want to get a condor and apartment downtown because they want to go to the bar scene, extend college a little bit longer. And I think that's just not really a sustainable way to have a society. There has to be a way for people to still have that sense of the community outside of, let's say, college in high school, even into their adulthood and then into their old age. So yeah, I mean, that's one of the biggest problems going on. And I agree. I think it drives, even to your point about the whites only community in Arkansas, I think it is driving these, let's call it ghettoization or insulation of people going into these artificial values based communities. Because where are you gonna find people? Go online. Go online, start spouting about politics or even not just for in cells and right wingers, but even on the left, someone like Tyler Robinson, he's on Discord. He's on Discord with all of the Overwatch players and all the LGBTQ or whatever. And I think that, you know, there's a tendency there where everybody kind of amplifies some of the resentment or feelings there. So I agree, that's a huge driver.

Andrew Callaghan [39:35] So for you, like back in high school, when you were like first kind of starting to use the internet and all that, did you build Mr. Community in person outside Chicago or was it mostly online?

Nick Fuentes [39:42] When I was in high school or college. High school. High school, I had real friends in the model UN. That was my favorite thing.

Andrew Callaghan [39:48] So that was... But you were still creating like some kind of content at that time. Not in high school, no. Okay. So you went to be you? Yes. Where most of your friends like classmates there, when did you start to kind of build your online persona and community around your content?

Nick Fuentes [39:58] It wasn't until I left college. So to that point, I had friends in college. And then when I left college and started my show, independently, then it was all people online. And everybody I knew was people from my community, from the most part.

Andrew Callaghan [40:12] But your cancellation from mainstream platforms was effectively the same thing as like a community collapse for your personal life, right?

Nick Fuentes [40:18] Yeah. Well, I wouldn't even say it was just the cancellation, but even more just returning home from college.

Andrew Callaghan [40:24] What do you think wouldn't happen to you like career-wise and personal life-wise if you never would have been mainstreamed? I mean, I guess, removed from major social media platforms.

Nick Fuentes [40:32] Oh, it'd be a lot easier to make friends. Let's say, because being banned on Instagram, you might as well be dead in Generation Z. That's how everybody sees each other, meets each other, talks to each other. So I think I probably have a wider, livelier circle.

Andrew Callaghan [40:46] Do you feel like you had less friends after that?

Nick Fuentes [40:49] No, I'd say it's about the same.

Andrew Callaghan [40:50] No, but you said that you feel like it would have been easier to make friends. It would have been easy to make more friends, yeah, sure. So aside from your career, how is your personal and social life affected in those following years?

Nick Fuentes [40:59] Well, it's brutal, you know? I mean, because everybody that I knew from high school is on Instagram, on Facebook, and I'm just not on there. It's almost like you're removed from the earth. For Generation Z, I understand for older people, for different generation, people still meet up or stay in touch in other ways. But if you're not online as a young person, you might as well be dead.

Andrew Callaghan [41:18] Do you think you would have said like some of the more extreme things that you did say, if you, you know, I guess we're allowed to remain on the mainstream internet? Absolutely, yeah. Looking back and I'm not trying to get you to like take something back necessarily. What's like one thing that you said when you're younger where you're like, fuck, wish I could take that back?

Nick Fuentes [41:32] You know, I don't know if I regret what I've said. It's just how you say it.

Andrew Callaghan [41:37] Yeah, like can you give an example of like, when you listen back to something, you're like, Jesus.

Nick Fuentes [41:40] Yeah, yeah. So I did this rally in 2023 called Fentus Rally 2. And the one comment I said, we're talking about a spiritual battle between Christians and everybody else. And I said, we're in a holy war. I said, we're gonna make them die in a holy war. And the second I said that, I was like, didn't mean to say that. It's an extemporaneous speech. So you don't rehearse it. You just say things and I was like, didn't mean that. Shouldn't have said that. So it's always the how. It's always in the delivery that I...

Hunter Biden [42:09] Nick, I can think of about four things that I really wish you would take back right now, but we don't have that. The cookies in the oven? Mm. Well, it's a joke. But it's not, Nick. My wife is Jewish. My son is Jewish. No, no, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. I promise you, don't get mad. I'm not mad at you. I know, but okay. But you gotta understand how incredibly, incredibly, whether it's a joke or not, to live the experience, pass down from generation to generation, whether or not, and by the way, not just from the Holocaust, not just from 1939 on. 2,000 years of history, okay? Forget about Israeli politics and Netanyahu, because I think we agree about BB Netanyahu. I'm positive we do. I've listened to you talk about it. But you gotta understand, look at me, man. I see. It hurts. It hurts. I don't think. I promise you it does. When you compare my wife's family to cookies going to an oven, it hurts. And you gotta understand that. And by the way, I'm looking at you. Yeah. And I believe that you do know that.

Nick Fuentes [43:12] So that's where you lose me. That's where you lose me. Okay, Nick. Okay, I'm telling you. Are we here to talk or are you here to lecture me and preach to me? Okay, no, you're right. I let me listen. Okay, you're right. So this is a thing because, you know, and I think this is a disconnect, I think that the left, and even people on the right, they're losing the young people. Why do people love me not in spite of, but because of the outrageous things that I say, not in spite of, but because I say offensive things, because I, let's say, drop the N word on a video or something. It's because people are sick of the preaching-ness, the lecturing. Okay, I'll listen to what you answer.

Hunter Biden [43:45] But Nick, I disagree. I think that you're appealing to the lowest common denominator of thought. If you're hating on the people that they think are the reason for their suffering, then you must be on their side. I don't think that you believe that about the Holocaust. I think you think the Holocaust did happen, but forget about whether or not you think that it is used politically in a way that is obtuse and wrong. But I think that you do believe that. And I think that you have to, like, what's your cultural heritage? I'm Italian, Mexican and Irish. Mexican. When did they come in Italian? When did the Mexicans come? When did the Irish come?

Nick Fuentes [44:22] Mexicans came, turn it the last century. Italians came in the 1860s. Irish came in the early 1990s.

Hunter Biden [44:28] So maybe you wouldn't care about something that is, like, grossly offensive just on the face of it and think that, oh, why can't people just believe that that's funny? But you got to understand, it's from a perspective of somebody that has the trauma. And I think that there is such a thing as generational trauma. And those stories are passed down generation to generation. When you say something like that, it's completely shut off. They can't hear another thing that you're saying about the cultural disconnect, about losing communities, about the feeling of being left out or left behind in a world in which there are no longer is this sense of community. All the other things that you say, everybody else is left. And what you do pick up, you pick up the ones that they hear the dog whistle. You pick up the ones that say, uh-huh. Yeah, that's the way that I feel, because it's radical. It's like he's willing to say the thing that nobody else will say in this environment. And then you get an enormous amount of niche, but, you know, beloved from that. And I don't, but I just don't believe that you believe that. I don't, I don't believe that you think that it was appropriate for you to say something like that. I don't think it's, but you believe that it's appropriate to say women shouldn't vote. Let's give Nick a second to respond to the first thing. I know, I talk. Well, that's how I, that's how I do this. That's all good, that's all good. I apologize.

Nick Fuentes [45:47] I get it and I understand that perspective. And I, you know, it is offensive and it is provocative. And that's sort of what makes it funny. I mean, what we would say in our generation's edge lording, we're being edgy, we're being provocative. And I think that it is that kind of overbearing sense

Hunter Biden [46:03] for our entire... I'm a king of edge lording.

Nick Fuentes [46:05] Well, let's let Nick explain it, let's let Nick explain it. I know. You know, it's, it's that overbearingness that my generations had our entire lives. That's not appropriate. That's not funny. Think of the trauma, that's racist. That's white supremacist that makes it funny, that makes it different, interesting. And let me grant, by the way, I think that now, and this is maybe a concession towards you, now that my kind of humor has become mainstream and popular, I don't even think that that's funny anymore. People do the edge lording thing, it's become so commonplace and so tired. I don't think it's that funny or impressive. That's a big part of why I kind of move past it, because 10 years ago, it was treated like sacrilegious. And there's something funny about the fact that you could say a word or make a joke and make people lose their minds and freak out. And it was like an international incident if you said the wrong thing. And I think that's what made it tempting, especially for a young person, you want a rebel, you want to be defiant, you want to be a little revolutionary or something. Now, as time has gone on, I think that's become a fad, everybody does it. It's lost its power. And I think that, by the way, part of why we're getting less of it is because instead of getting the preachy lecture from the left saying, that's not appropriate, people just roll their eyes. Now, when an edgy white person says the N word, people roll their eyes and go, really, you know, that joke again, people here, someone wears a Nazi costume, makes a Holocaust joke, people go, really, that joke again, it's not impressive, it's not funny anymore. We've seen it before. And ironically, that is what makes you get less of it when you disempower those things by not giving them this over-the-top reaction, pretending like it's some great travesty.

Andrew Callaghan [47:42] So you think the new counterculture is gonna be to be woke again?

Nick Fuentes [47:44] No, I think it's a synthesis.

Andrew Callaghan [47:46] A synthesis of post-edge lordism and wokeism? Yes, because I think that wokeism had its excesses.

Nick Fuentes [47:53] Edge lording also has its excesses. And I think now we're finding a middle ground between saying the edgiest thing we can think of with no regard for anyone and saying everything is racist. You know, if you say something, you should lose your job. We're finding a middle ground where, you know, maybe it's tasteful, tastefully offensive in small doses, less is more.

Andrew Callaghan [48:13] So it sounds like you believe in the survival of the American experiment.

Nick Fuentes [48:16] Yeah, I really do. And listen, I don't think everything about wokeism was bad necessarily.

Andrew Callaghan [48:20] What's the best thing about wokeism?

Nick Fuentes [48:22] I think that genuinely it has made people more respectful and empathetic. Because let's be honest, 20 years ago, let's say when I was growing up, I think there was a lot of cruelty. And I think there were some hateful attitudes. And I think as time has gone on, this younger generation, they may not be even left-wing. They may not be what you consider woke. But I think they are respectful of people that have different ideas or, you know, different way of life or from a different culture. You know, we make jokes all the time about the fact that I'm like a far-right guy and I'm Mexican. People say I'm a white supremacist, I'm Mexican. And people make a joke that a lot of far-right people are Hispanic. And I think that's a consequence that there's very little genuine racial hatred in anybody's DNA anymore or any kind of hatred. And I think that's positive, but that went too far. And I think some of the other stuff went too far as well.

Andrew Callaghan [49:09] You know, one of these strange things about sitting in a room with these two is that they agree on almost nothing, but they've both lived the same nightmare. Hunter had a laptop turned into a decade of strangers picking through his texts, his private photos, his voice memo, and even his bank record, whereas Nick has been doxed, swatted, had his DMs leaked probably more times that he can count, and more shenanigans. Different politics, but kind of same experience. Somebody somewhere decided that their personal information was public property, so they exhumed it and sent it off to the world. But here's the thing that most people don't know. A huge amount of that information actually isn't stolen. It's for sale, legally. Currently, they're over 420 companies called Data Brokers, whose entire business is collecting your home address, your phone number, your relatives, your previous addresses, your income bracket, and selling access to anybody who pays. Last October, one of these vendors got breached and 70,000 people had their government IDs exposed in one day. That's what this ecosystem looks like when it fails and it fails constantly. Now you might be thinking, okay, but I'm not a Hunter Biden, Andrew Callahan, or Nick Fuentes. Nobody's coming after me, and honestly, I get that. But here's what actually happens when your info is sitting in these databases. Every spam call you get, every spam text about a package you didn't order, every weird email from a bank that you don't use, that's the Data Broker economy. It's why scammers know your name before they call. This issue is affecting so many Americans. The FBI just said that Americans lost $21 billion to online fraud last year, and Americans over 60 lost 7.7 billion of them. And the fastest growing category of scam types relates to AI voice clones. It's a scam where somebody calls your mom pretending to be you and your voice from a number that looks like yours. But guess what, that scam doesn't work. If the scammer doesn't already know your name, your mom's name, and her phone number. And guess where they got that stuff? All three, Data Brokers. There's also the issue of who can find your address. Any ex, any estranged family member, anybody from a situation ship you left years ago who went crazy, 20 bucks on a people search site, and they know where you live right now. Most people don't think about that until it matters and by then it's too late, you're dead. That's where Encogni comes in. You just sign up and they take it from there. They contact Data Brokers directly, demand that your info be removed and send fresh sweeps every 16 to 90 days so nothing quietly gets added back. They've processed over 245 million removal requests to date. And unlike most other competitors in this industry, they had Deloitte. They had Deloitte. They had Beliote. One of the big four auditing firms independently verify how many brokers they cover and how often they actually follow up. The numbers didn't lie. The numbers aren't marketing. They are audited. Encogni is this shit. They didn't come to play around and guess what? On the unlimited and family unlimited plans, you also get their exposure scanner. It crawls the way I'm looking for personal info outside the usual broker sites and hands anything it finds to incognize removal specialists who are real people, not AI robots on the other side. Recently I ran my own info through Encogni and immediately found old addresses, phone numbers and family members listed across a bunch of people search websites. Within the first week though, dozens of removal requests were already in progress and you can watch the whole thing happen on the Encogni dashboard. Go to encogni.com slash channel five, use code channel five, all caps, 60% off. All right, back to Hunter and Nick. I bless Espanol. No. Not a little bit, I guess.

Nick Fuentes [52:33] From high school.

Andrew Callaghan [52:34] Can you do a little bit? No, in polka. Okay. I don't speak it from my dad, so. Did you grow up like around a lot of Mexicans? No, all white people for the most part. Did they know you were Mexican? They did.

Nick Fuentes [52:44] And not gonna lie. I mean, people made fun of me for that.

Andrew Callaghan [52:47] What did they say?

Nick Fuentes [52:48] Well, like, for example, one time when I was in Model UN, I was entering high schools of freshmen. They looked at my name on the roster without knowing me and they told me this after the fact, the leadership of the club, they said, oh, we thought you were just some Mexican kids who we gave you a bad committee assignment. Wow. But see, I heard that and I laughed. I said, that's funny. You know, there's a lot of people that say, oh, that's traumatic. I'm a victim of racism. You know, I think that's, you know, it's just a human thing.

Andrew Callaghan [53:17] Yeah, I always felt like growing up as like a white kid in America.

Hunter Biden [53:20] What if you weren't, wait, what if, what if you were an identified as being Mexican and they came to you and they didn't tell you that's the reason that they gave you all the bad committee assignments? That would be unfair. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just saying. That's the one point, isn't it? And I mean, you may find it funny because you pass as a white Anglo Christian. Do you think I pass? What? Do you think I pass as a white Anglo Christian? Well, I don't only think I pass, I think you identify as it, yeah. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, no, but really, for real. And my point is that I heard you do an interview, okay? And I, literally on the right up here is like, you were talking about how you were raised on like Mark Levin in high school. Right. I think that you liked the most about Mark Levin is how cruel he was to the colors. I don't see, I don't get that. I like the joke about the cookies. It may be a joke and it may be edge lording and you may not really mean it, but you got to realize the cruelty to it. And without going like, oh, like, you know, when, when, like, you know, people got to stop crying about the past. And that's the thing. Is it, I think that you have such an opportunities to talk to a generation of disaffected angry, legitimately angry people in a way in which is, is positive without having to do that shit. And by the way, and I'm not holding you responsible for like, you know, the end of, of, you know, my conception of Western civilization, which is different than yours, but I just don't get it. I don't get why you find the cruelty. And I think that, by the way, I think that that's why you like Trump. I mean, this is by making, you know, like a very unfair leap because his first instinct is cruelty. His first instinct is to find the fault in the other about everything, by the way. It's not his fault that we're in a war with the ran that he's ended 38 times and, you know, and started 39. It's not his fault that inflation's high. It's not his fault that the wall didn't get built. It's not his fault that ISIS killing people on the streets in, in these places. Is it the cruelty of it? Maybe it's a generational thing. I got friends who are Jewish that are gonna be really, really fucking pissed off that I'm sitting next to you. And what do I tell them? What do I tell them why it's okay for me to sit and have this conversation with you?

Nick Fuentes [55:40] I guess I just have such a different opinion of that. You know, why should we have to explain ourselves to talk to anybody? And why is it that saying the wrong words or making a particular joke makes it so the Jewish person wouldn't want to watch my show? I have a lot of Jewish fans. I mean, some of my best friends are Jewish. I've had Jewish employees and they recognize that, you know, just because I'm not necessarily nice all the time. It doesn't mean I'm hateful, it doesn't mean, I don't even think they see it as cruel. I think they see it as, it's a little rough around the edges. And maybe that's the difference. I guess it's just attributing this weight to something that we can consider to joke and maybe doesn't have a cruel intention behind it. Like, you know, Mark Levin, you got to remember at the end of the day, it's an entertainment show. It's entertainment, people call in, he gets frustrated with them. It's part of what I do on my show. And it's not always nice, but it's funny. And I don't think it's mean spirited necessarily. And I don't think it's that big of a deal. So I mean, the thought that I would like, for example, with you, people would say, why do you talk to Hunter Biden, his father, and his DOJ, froze your money and put you on a no-fly list? I'd say, so what? I mean, it's just talking. I don't think talking's a big deal, you know?

Hunter Biden [56:47] It froze my money and put me on a no-fly list too.

Andrew Callaghan [56:50] There you go. See, so we got that in common. So a different question that I have, that kind of weaves everything together. How do you think, like, October 7th, and this subsequent, like, pro-Palestine movement and the online world that created led to a growing audience

Nick Fuentes [57:02] on the right? October 7th, in particular. Well, I think it highlighted and brought to the forefront how captured the right wing is by Israel, which is very unique. I think the Democrats and the Republicans are pro-Israel, but the Republican Party has this inextricable institutional connection with the Israel lobby, with this like-cude government in particular. And I think people just started to see the hypocrisies. The hypocrisy was brought to the forefront, which is America first, but not with Israel. No new wars, except for with Iran.

Donald Trump clip [57:31] Under Trump, we will have no more wars. No more wars. No more wars. They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars tonight, Iran's navy is gone.

Nick Fuentes [57:42] You know, we're going to be racist and all these things, but don't you dare be anti-Semitic. Don't even think about it. I see good things about Hitler also. Every human being has something of value that they brought to the table, especially Hitler. So I think that on the right wing, it made it unignorable that there's this ideological institutional capture.

Andrew Callaghan [58:02] I just feel like a lot of straightforward, like just anti-Semite influencers were taking advantage of the post-docs, so October 7th discourse to push other ideas, broader ideas about Jewish people as a whole.

Nick Fuentes [58:12] Come out and say it. I think that Jews are causing a disproportionate amount of problems in the United States. Well, I mean, I think it's hard to ignore some of those other conversations. I know that it's now become maybe invoked to say that the Israel issue is very narrow. It's just Netanyahu. It's just a like-kudniks. It's just the Israel lobby. But, you know, what would you say about someone like Larry Ellison? I mean, somebody like that, I don't think fits neatly into this, let's say, problem of Netanyahu.

Andrew Callaghan [58:44] As far as installing Barry Weiss and whatnot.

Nick Fuentes [58:46] Yes, gotcha gotcha gotcha. Because this is somebody who's not Israeli. He's not even a religious Jew, but he's ethnically Jewish and has this deep affinity for the state of Israel. You know, I feel a deep emotional connection to the state of Israel and the Israeli people. And is using and mobilizing his power and resources and connections to benefit Israel in the private sector. And so if you were to say what's a law that we could pass to prevent that kind of influence, what would it look like? He's an American citizen. He can't buy a media company and hire Barry Weiss to run CBS News. And yet we recognize that's a big problem.

Andrew Callaghan [59:20] I just feel the conflation of like anti-Zionism like Holocaust denial played into the hands of the Israeli propaganda apparatus. Because then they can say, hey, look, these people that oppose what we're doing in Palestine also don't think the Holocaust happened. For it's a big jump in the public perception.

Hunter Biden [59:34] It was almost to me as if that was your intent to lose any legitimacy about any argument as it relates to Israel. And the liquid government is to say those edge-lording things or whatever.

Nick Fuentes [59:46] Jews are money changers. Bullshit artists, psychopaths, charlatans,

Hunter Biden [59:52] grifters, manipulators. I don't know anybody that can hear you after you say that, including myself. It delegitimizes everything. Because I don't think that you a little bit of more compassion. Let's try to stay a little.

Andrew Callaghan [60:08] I don't want to do any character attacks on Nick.

Hunter Biden [60:10] Oh, I'm not attacking his character. I'm not attacking. I promise you, I'm not.

Andrew Callaghan [60:14] No, as far as compassion, I'm more just mean straightforward. Do you feel like the rise in anti-Semitic online influencers post-October 7 has given Israel a more ammunition to work with in terms of casting everyone who opposes what they're doing as just like a rabid Jewator?

Nick Fuentes [60:28] In some cases, yeah, in some cases, sure. But I also think that's overstated, because I think that, you know, look, let's just be honest, I do believe the political left wants to make the Israel issue very narrow. And they want to say that the issue is this genocide in Palestine, and on some level, they think that the Israeli government is racist. You fucking bang pig! You fucking bloodthirsty, violent pig dog. And that's the problem. And I think that that ignores that there is a broader conversation. And it does have to do with the Holocaust. And it does have to do with Jews as such and Jewish nationalism and Jewish identity. So to try to shoehorn it in and say, well, if anybody goes further than this very narrow critique of Israel, well, they're actually helping Israel, I don't agree with that. I think we have to unpack the whole conversation.

Andrew Callaghan [61:16] Will do you care a lot about Palestinians? Not more than I care about anybody else. So I guess that would be why they would be like, OK, you're just taking advantage of this discourse.

Nick Fuentes [61:25] I don't think it's taking advantage. I think that we can sympathize with the Palestinians while also realizing that, you know, look, I'm an American. And so it's a tragedy what's happening in Palestine. But there's tragedies happening all over the world. My problem is that Israel has a influence over our government. I'm a newcomer to politics, but not to back in the Jewish state. And we're paying for the genocide. And we're furnishing them with the weapons to commit the genocide. And by the way, America is going to be held liable for this genocide morally, but also politically and diplomatically and otherwise. But I think that people on the left, they may be guilty of maybe caring more about Palestine than they do about America.

Hunter Biden [62:02] Nick, but the left didn't cancel you. The right canceled you first. The right canceled you first in Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire. And those were the people that canceled. They may have utilized the tools of the left or what you call the left to be able to do that. But it was the right that canceled you. And by the way, I would consider a radical right. The Daily Wire to me is a radical right.

Nick Fuentes [62:26] I don't think they're even reaction. I don't think they're that conservative at all. Ben Shapiro, I mean, he's not like he's in prison.

Hunter Biden [62:32] In 2016. In 2016, they were all right. No, they were not. Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire were, they were to the right of Mitt Romney, you know what I mean? That's what I mean. They were more conservative. That's who you were canceled by. I was also canceled by the left. No, I know. They came along because some of the more egregious things that you said, that you said is exhilarating. They came along, whether you call it canceling or saying, like, what the fuck? This is what I call it. What the fuck? Like, what the fuck? And so, like, I don't find it funny. And just like you're able to say, well, I just think it's funny. I'm able to say, I don't find it fucking funny. I didn't find it funny then. I don't find it funny now. I didn't find it funny at the jump of the things that, you know, you said about me. But I'm willing to sit here and listen to you because I want to get to this. And this is my whole point. What about fucking Donald Trump? Yeah, we can get to that. How did you get all the people in the world where you could look at and say he doesn't believe anything?

Andrew Callaghan [63:35] So for context for the viewer, Donald Trump is currently the sitting president of the US for audience abroad. The war with Iran was supposed to be over. And now we're back in business, baby. How many had a pretty sick funeral if you saw the video? So, you guys don't like Trump. You used to like him. I did. You boys hated him. He's trying to destroy your life. Yeah. You guys were cool. You guys hung out once at Mar-a-Laga with Kanye. You've never hung out with Trump, right? Would you want to? No.

Hunter Biden [64:01] No, I would do. I want to. Yeah, I did. Look, man, I would, like, can we get him? Can we get him in the hotel?

Andrew Callaghan [64:06] No, so I want you to imagine he's in the hotel with us. That's Trump.

Hunter Biden [64:10] What do you want to ask him? Oh, you know, put me on the spot. I don't want to ask Donald Trump anything because I know, and I think you would agree with me, is that Donald Trump isn't going to give me an authentic answer. Donald Trump never gives an authentic answer. He gives what people refer to as being authentic, but it's not authentic. It's audacious. It's like the example that I give that is the best metaphor for this is that he says he's 6'3, weighs 225 pounds. And everybody laughs because that's a little bit like edge lording, right? Everybody knows that he is maybe six feet in ways, maybe 300, 285?

Nick Fuentes [64:51] He's a big guy.

Hunter Biden [64:52] He's a pretty big guy. Yeah, big guy, but by virtue of every picture ever taken of anyone that's 6'3, he's not 6'3". I am. Okay, yeah, I know you are. Thank you. Here's 6'2 and a half. Maybe, that's fuck, maybe. But my point is, is that the reason I don't have a question for him is because I'm absolutely certain that he is not going to give me an authentic answer. Look, he came into the Oval Office and the transition this time. And he told my dad that he thought that he did an amazing job. He did an amazing job with the economy. He did an amazing job that with NATO, he did an amazing job and that he got a raw deal from his side and anything he could do, particularly for Hunter, Hunter got screwed, whatever I could do, you let me know. Bullshit. He then went out and he has now since then done nothing but blame Joe Biden for every single one of his problems.

Donald Trump clip [65:41] 11 months ago, I inherited a mess. Joe Biden handed us over a country that was in very serious trouble. Biden gave us a horrible economy. I really mean this. I think the good parts of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the Biden economy.

Hunter Biden [65:56] He mentioned my dad's name or my family's name, six times a day in the first 100 days of this administration. Six times a day. He does it maybe four times a day now because he has no answers. All he has is a finger to point. And that's all he does. My point is I don't know what to ask him. Why are you such a dick? What is your dad think about the war? Right. But I don't, I'm not going to get into what my dad thinks about the war. Is that really because I don't want like, I don't want to get into, I don't put words in my dad's mouth just like I wouldn't ask you what your dad thinks about the war, but that wasn't the president of the United States, I'll handle it. I'll handle it. But look, all I can say is this is that every single Israeli prime minister since Jimmy, at least Jimmy Carter was president has walked into the Oval Office or picked up the phone and called the president and said we have to attack her in. And every single one of them has said no. And they may not all have had the same exact reason, but one of the reasons they did is because they knew what the consequences would be as it relates to the lifeblood of the economy is totally in the streets of our moves. Every single one of them knew that and every single one of them knew that there is no way unless you send in ground forces to end with certainty the nuclear program that the Iranians have supposedly been building. Every single one of them knew that the existing Ayatollah, the Ayatollah at that time, had put out a fatwa, an edict saying that they would never turn their nuclear technology into a bomb.

Ayatollah Khomeini clip [67:31] The supreme leader of Iran issued fatwa. Having new nuclear weapons is forbidden, it's haram. Which means never we can have new nuclear weapons.

Hunter Biden [67:44] It was a religious eating as strong as if the Pope had released an encyclical. But what did he do? He kills the Ayatollah. We get a son that now has a far more radical and far greater ties to the IRGC. And what do we have? The streets of our moves are still closed. He said that they're brilliant people. I find that that's done with Trump on everything. He said he'd end the war in Ukraine on day one.

Donald Trump clip [68:10] That is a war that's dying to be settled. I will get it settled before I even become president.

Hunter Biden [68:16] And I didn't hear anybody on the right or I didn't say that's just bullshit. There's, it's just bullshit. He said that he would build a wall. I don't believe in building a wall. But everybody said that's bullshit. And then when he got into office, the corruption, the level of the corruption, I mean, people believed, or led to believe that there was this thing called the Biden Crime Family, right? I know that you know is that I didn't do single piece of business when my dad was president. I made basically $200,000 a year selling paintings. I picked the thing that was the furthest possible thing away from politics that I possibly could. Don and Eric have done over $1.3 billion in contracts, just in contracts for underlying companies that they have an ownership stake in with the Department of Defense. Don Jr. got the largest loan ever given by the Department of Defense of a company that he bought into like three months before they got the loan. Because Peter Navarro picked up the phone and called a DOD to get it done. My point is I don't have anything productive to say to him that I know of. And when I listen to you, and I listen to what you do, is my question is, is how did you not see that before? He was a disaster in 2020, a complete not a disaster as it related to what he did with COVID-19. Regardless of whether you think we were supposed to, we weren't a master or not.

Andrew Callaghan [69:36] The question for Nick is, how did you not realize six years ago that Trump would be this sort of let down? Because he doesn't hold, and you know that he, there's no ideological core to Donald Trump?

Nick Fuentes [69:45] No, I agree with you. Well, you got to realize in 2016, where Republicans were at. We had John McCain, we had Mitt Romney, and the perception on the right is that they were insufficiently conservative, and that they were losers. All they do is lose, because they don't fight. There is this perception that the Democrats are ruthless, fighters, Obama, crushed in 2008, crushed. When we thought we, he really should have lost in 2012. That was a Republican perception that Romney let us down. And so when Trump came on the scene in 2016, it was new, it was refreshing. He seemed like somebody that was really gonna take on, not just the Democrats, but also the media on our behalf. And what's more, you got to think about the mood of the moment in 16 as well, and the message Trump was giving. Trump said in 16, it's just me and my son and my wife, we don't have any donors, we don't have any special interests.

Donald Trump clip [70:35] More than $100 million put in of my money, meaning I'm not taking all of this big money from all of these different corporations like she's to.

Nick Fuentes [70:42] We're gonna put America first, make the country great again. This is a very appealing message. And I talk all the time on my show about it, and realizing now that it was obviously a scam, and now obviously unfulfilled completely, and you're right, Trump is non-ideological. The message was brilliant because it said one, the system is broken. America's not great anymore, but it used to be. We can make it great again, but in order to do it, we need to actually bypass the system. Why is it that we never have victories? Why is it that things don't change because of money? He said, and that's why I'm different, I'm rich. I'm a billionaire, if I self-unmit campaign and don't take super PAC money, then I won't have to listen to the lobbyists and the special interests. I could fire the people I need to fire, do the things I need to do. That was like a very powerful message in 2016. And after four years, I was one of the people even back then that said, look, it never materialized. He did wind up taking super PAC money. He took eight PAC money for that matter. Sheldon Adelson money at that time in 16, even in the first term, bombed Iran. In the first term, didn't build the wall. In the first term, didn't even reduce illegal immigration until 2019. And I remember the timeline perfectly because I covered it every day. It was like in May and June, 2019, 20-year illegal immigration high in terms of month over month. But why did I go for them in 2020? At the height of the pandemic, we all thought on the right that if anyone other than Trump was president, you were gonna get a vaccine mandate, which we really didn't wanna be forced to take the vaccine. We thought the lockdown might never end. We thought that censorship would kick into overdrive. And so we said, really, it's unacceptable that anyone other than Trump would just be a disaster. And then obviously Biden came in and I don't think it was as bad as we thought it would be to tell you the truth, honestly. But by 2024, I mean, I was out in 2024 because everything you're saying is totally true. And I was telling people on my side, I was saying he's not gonna build the wall. Then I know you're against that. He's not gonna do the nasty portations promising that. He's not gonna start no new wars. I said in 24, he's gonna take us to Iran. And the Ukraine war, I said, that's not gonna end in one day. Too complicated, we're already in it. And so I didn't vote. I didn't vote in 2024. And I told my followers not to vote for Trump for that reason. And it was only until a year later, after all the exuberance died down and people saw the bearing of the Epstein files, the war in Iran, people said, you know what, you were right. You were right about Trump. Even Alex Jones told me, you were right about Trump. I was all in on him. So, I mean, as far as him being vaporware is concerned in a scammer and fundamentally, you're 100% right, no ideological core. He's not an ideological guy. Yeah, it is.

Hunter Biden [73:21] He's really all about him.

Nick Fuentes [73:22] And I agree, he's a cruel narcissist. And you said, I like the cruelty. I do not like the cruelty.

Hunter Biden [73:28] No, no, by the way, no. I didn't say you like the cruelty. I said, I'd listen to you thing. And you said, one of the things that you liked about Levin was the cruelty. And not for the cruelty sake, it didn't seem to me like there is, is because it was raw. It was, yeah, yeah. And I said, so I'm not saying that.

Nick Fuentes [73:44] No, but I do. I agree. I think he is cruel. And even what he said on Easter, I mean, we're Catholic. On Easter Sunday, he says, we're going to annihilate Iran. And then he made fun of Allah on Easter Sunday. So, you know, that kind of stuff, it just totally turned me off entirely.

Andrew Callaghan [74:01] Is there anything that you think Trump can do to like regain the support of the, I guess, a Gen Z and millennial, right?

Nick Fuentes [74:07] No, it's over. People see what he's made of. And Hunter's right, he's a liar. He is a liar. He is a bullshit artist. And especially, you look at what he did with the Epstein files with the war in Iran when he did a Thomas Massey.

Donald Trump clip [74:21] He's guy named Thomas Massey. There's something wrong with him. They just about, no, they love voting now. They think it's good politically.

Nick Fuentes [74:29] You realize that if you are America first, you have no place in this Republican party, because he said it. He said our Republican party, or rather, he said MAGA. Is Mark Levin, Laura Loomer, Randy Fein? He said, and who is not MAGA? Megan Callie Tucker, Alex Jones, Candace. And I think most Republicans said, well, we're with those other people. We're not MAGA anymore, so.

Hunter Biden [74:50] What do you think happens, Nick? I believe that we need radical change. And I'm not talking about violence or revolution or things like that. I'm talking about the only ways that you can have this kind of radical rethinking of the system. Like, there's so many, like, what do you think about the Epstein files? And what do you think about the accountability? And do you think that he's broken the system to the degree that we now are basically in a dictatorship light?

Nick Fuentes [75:13] No, I actually have a lot of confidence only because I think the Democrats are going to take the House in 26, which I support. I'm telling my people vote Democrat. We want the Democrats in the House. Because what they're going to do is they're going to use the oversight powers to bring all the corruption to light. Because I know Republicans will watch this. And when you say, you know, we didn't commit crime, they're going to be skeptical. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the income you made during Biden was ill-gotten. For the sake of example, it's just not, doesn't hold a candle. It doesn't even come close, doesn't even touch. Jared Kushner, Howard Lutnik, Steve Whitkoff, Don Jr. Trump himself, it's just a different sport. It's a different game entirely. And I want all that corruption to be revealed. And I think the Democrats are going to do it. I hope they get impeached. I don't think they'll be removed from office. But I think it'll basically drag this administration to a halt. And then 28, I think there's an opportunity for a clean reset with both sides right and left.

Andrew Callaghan [76:08] Hey guys, quick thing before we get back to Hunter and Nick. So these two guys individually have been hammered on all sides by the American media for years. And if you wanted to understand why the coverage looks the way it does historically, you've got to ask an important question that nobody asks. Who owns the outlets doing the hammering? Who's doing the hammering? Who funds them? Who's on the board of directors? Once you trace the money, the whole two-party culture or things starts looking a lot less like a real fight and a lot more like a business model and a very effective one. And ground news is how I see right through it. So ground news is the dopest news aggregate out there. App and website as well. Beyond the ownership piece, every outlet gets a bias rating and a factuality score. And there's a blind spot feature that catches stories that one side is hammering while the other side is completely ignoring. Which happens more than you'd believe. Here's a perfect example. So my man, Big Hunter Biden, Big HB, just won a $1.7 million defamation suit against ex-overstock CEO Patrick Byrne, who lied in claim that Hunter took an $800 million bribe from the Iranians. Pull it up in ground news. So the WLT report on the far right, the sister site of WeLoveTrump.com, spent four years shitting on my boy Hunter. But today, the headline reads, Hunter scores stunning $1.7 million court victory. Wow, stunning. Now on the left, Raw Story says, Hunter gets last laugh after judge orders and ag a millionaire to fork over nearly two million. So on this story, as you can see, left, right, everyone converges. That's the ownership beat right there. WLT report is a Trump loyal outlet and even they had to run the wind straight. That's the ownership beat right there. And when you can actually see the ownership inside of ground news, you can really trust exactly what you're reading. Look, I don't do much news commentary. I do documentaries, but before I sit down with two guys who have been extensively attacked by the press for years, I gotta know where the coverage of them is actually coming from before I ask my questions. And ground news is exactly how I do it. If you wanna be just like me and join the GNC5 family, go to ground.newslastchannel5 or scan the QR code on screen. You'll get 40% off the vantage plan, the illus plan on the dopest app in human history. Break out of the algorithm. Ground news. All right, back to Hunter and Nick. Whenever you talk about Trump, sometimes you explain this like nightmare scenario that revolves around a Vance presidency. Yes. What about JD Vance being in power scares you so much.

Nick Fuentes [78:30] If Trump doesn't have an ideological core, then Vance really doesn't, because Vance is a chameleon. That's not his real name for openers. Never had a real job. These are all synacures given to him by Peter Till. Six years ago, he's a never-trumper. I'm a never-trump guy.

Sam Altman clip [78:45] I never liked him. I think that he's leading people in a very dark direction. And that's ultimately what worries me the most. Terrible candidate. Idiot, if you voted for him, might be America's Hitler. I was wrong about Donald Trump. I didn't think he was going to be a good president, Brett. He was a great president.

Nick Fuentes [79:00] Now he's a national conservative, national populist. And so we don't even really know who he is. I mean, to me, this is basically a Manchurian candidate. This is a shell. And who is the power behind him? It's the oligarchs. It's the little tech oligarchs in bed with the CIA. You know, especially at this fever pitch with AI, I think that's really dangerous. So to me, him being president is just a worse scenario on my mind.

Andrew Callaghan [79:24] For the uninformed viewer, what is the Palantir JD Man's connection?

Nick Fuentes [79:27] Well, Palantir was founded by Peter Teele. And Peter Teele is very close to David Sachs. JD Vance was given his first job in Silicon Valley by Teele. Teele hooked him up with it. You know, the CEO of that company said it was a personal favorite to Teele that I hired him. And then Teele got him all his jobs at these various venture capital firms, including his own. And then funding JD Vance's venture capital firm. Peter Teele gave $15 million to Vance when he ran for Senate in Ohio in 22. Peter Teele secured President Trump's endorsement for him in 22, which basically got him the nomination and the seat. So I mean, as far as anybody's concerned, Vance owes his entire political career to Peter Teele who derives his fortune from Palantir.

Hunter Biden [80:08] You know, he's a cat like you and me. Well, he's a convert, so you know.

Andrew Callaghan [80:12] Beware the convert. You, yeah. So do you think that Trump's unfulfillment of his campaign promises was a result of him being like compromised by somebody connected to that structure? Or do you think he always just never cared?

Nick Fuentes [80:23] I don't know that he never cared. I just think that, you know, me, I'm an idealist. So I think about the ideas and the concepts. Trump is a businessman. And so I think with him everything's transactional. And I said this in 2024, he knew. Trump knew the voters would swallow anything. The voters could not, would not walk away from the table because they were enamored with him.

Donald Trump clip [80:44] I could stand in the middle of fifth avenue

Nick Fuentes [80:46] and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay? It's like incredible. So he knew he could break every promise with them in order to fulfill promises for the donor class, which is little tech, the Israel lobby and Wall Street, the bankers, Tim Mellon, you know, the big asset managers. So I think with him everything's business, everything's a transaction. And that's why you can't trust him. You have to do business. And in 24, I said, we should all collectively say, we're not gonna vote unless he makes certain commitments. And not enough people did that. But I mean, that's fundamentally his flaw.

Andrew Callaghan [81:21] Your critique of this like elite power structure sounds like vaguely anti-capitalist.

Nick Fuentes [81:26] It's not anti-capitalist. Capitalism says the capital, large amounts of capital will be held in private hands, which I believe in. I am a capitalist, but I think what is happening is that it's the way that money is used in government. There needs to be a distinct and separate national power that subordinates the money power to it. The problem is the billionaires by all the elections, by all the media, control public perception. And so really we're all subsidiary then to the market. So I support capitalism, but it just has to be underneath the nation, underneath the state.

Andrew Callaghan [82:04] It seems like you have a pretty optimistic perspective on the year 2028.

Nick Fuentes [82:08] Well, he's gonna get a third term. So Trump 28, Trump is gonna be president of 28.

Andrew Callaghan [82:12] Kind of keep coming back to this like clean election year. Do you think that's gonna be like a renaissance year for outsider candidates and outside media channels like this one?

Nick Fuentes [82:20] It can be. I think it certainly can be because I think there's frustration on the right and on the left. You see even in the primaries on the Democrats side, it's all DSA progressive types that are winning. You ironically have the same frustration on the left with their establishment as we have on the right. And so I think in 2028, it's gonna be a year where there'll be a competitive Republican primary and Democratic primary. And hopefully the people make their voice heard and we get some new options. Maybe they reflect the will of the people more.

Hunter Biden [82:48] Yeah. So what do you think about somebody like Mamdani?

Nick Fuentes [82:52] Personally, I don't like him. I don't like some of the things that he said. Like for example, on 4th of July, when he takes the opportunity to sit there with, let's be honest, not a single white person in the room and says, you know, the founding fathers or would look down on us to working people with their dirt street tans against the billionaires. I think it's a little too divisive. I like his energy. I like that he's young. He's ironic.

Hunter Biden [83:19] That's rich, buddy. But no, it seems, it seems pointed at me. I know, but I think, like, yeah, but the thing...

Andrew Callaghan [83:28] He was dissing you in that video? Yeah, a little staring down the camera that just frees me, you said I'm a bitch.

Hunter Biden [83:33] People like me. Yeah. But what I see is somebody is using government for exactly the purpose that you just said is to break the oligopoly, to target the anger towards a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the population that has controlled the levers of government from the White House down to the mayor's office in New York City or Peoria, Illinois, to that matter. And even more so, as you go further down that chain. And so I look at somebody like Wendani and regardless of his delivery, which may be off-putting particularly for somebody coming from your side, is that he's delivering, man, you know what? I mean, he's really delivering. You know, like, I saw somebody going after mom Donnie for some of this stuff and particularly about rent control. You know? I was like, how do you think that the middle class was built after World War II and the GI Bill and rent control buildings that created those communities that we were talking about an hour ago?

clip [84:40] The GI Bill provides returning soldiers and veterans a range of benefits, including mortgages to purchase homes, loans to go to school. And this really was instrumental in creating a new American middle class.

Hunter Biden [84:55] Created the availability for somebody that was 26 years old, that had a job with the MTA to be able to live and work in the city and put the kid in the school with the idea that they would be safe walking there and go to a park where the water fountains worked. That's what I see him trying to do. I mean, by the way, it's just so tired. You know, he's a communist, communist. Like, it's about the communist. Like, who even says that anymore? Nobody thinks, you know what? We're just like 1981 and watching Rocky V and worried about the communist. You know what I mean? I just don't get it. Rocky IV? My whole Philly legitimacy, which is alone right there. But it's just kind of, so I look at somebody like Mom Donnie, I think, well, he's just talking about good government. Like, what do you think about health care? Don't you think that there should be a single-payer system? Don't you think that there should be some guarantee as a right? Because I don't know how you make it in this country and aspire to a middle-class life and be able to afford a catastrophic event as it relates to your health. I mean, it's over.

Nick Fuentes [86:11] You're done. I don't support single-payer, but I do believe that everybody should be entitled to some minimum level of coverage, catastrophic insurance. So, in principle, I agree.

Hunter Biden [86:20] Which is Medicare for all to a certain degree, right? I mean, because that's all the Medicare does right now. But why is that radical? See, I don't think that's necessarily radical, but I... To them, it's because we've been convinced that it's... To them, those others. Yeah, no, them. I mean, the insurance companies. Sure. And they're lobbyists who control 55% of Congress, regardless of who's in power. Right.

Nick Fuentes [86:50] Well, I don't think that's necessarily the most radical. I think, though, he is with the DSA, the Democratic Socialist of America. He backs all these DSA candidates. And let's be honest, a lot of them are radical. Like, I saw one of these candidates which is one in New York a couple of weeks ago, the Chivalier candidate. There's a picture.

Hunter Biden [87:09] She hates my dad. Yeah, I know. She said about my dad. She's awful things about him.

Nick Fuentes [87:13] And she says, oh, I didn't have a napkin to wipe my hands so I used the American flag.

Hunter Biden [87:19] Yeah, by the way, I think it's crazy. But like, the same way that, you know, I thought a lot of the stuff that some people that got elected in 2016, 2020, even during the Tea Party, you know, kind of a moment was, you know, egregious, again, egregious.

Todd Akin clip [87:34] If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.

Hunter Biden [87:39] So what do we do? What do we do, Nick? I think a better question is. I'm married for real. What do we do? Can you at least come a little bit to this way? If you can come a little this way. I can. Here's where I can come. Is this? Do you get what I'm saying about the Holocaust things?

Nick Fuentes [87:55] Oh, about that. Not me really. I do. I do. And listen, here's what I'll say. Now that I'm older, I do think that's not the best approach. So I agree with you on that. And I see it as I get older, you know, because let's be honest. Saying those things when I'm a younger guy, when I'm, you know, 18, 20, it's like, you gotta think that's just the age. Jews are running society. Women need to shut the fuck up. Blacks need to be imprisoned for the most part. And a lot of young people think that's funny and everything like that, I think that. And it also goes with the medium as well. Livestreaming, social media. That's just what it rewards. So yeah, I think that people should try to move past some of that.

Hunter Biden [88:37] I'll try. But if you, if you try. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. And as it relates to when you talk about Israel in Netanyahu, the coup government, what's happening now? What's happened for the past 20 years in terms of whether the funding is or whether you think it is? It's really important that you make a distinction between that and Jews. Because here's the thing, okay? Zoramandadani has a higher-favorite rating in the United States among Jews than Bebe Netanyahu does. I think 65% of American Jews disagree with the approach that the Israeli government has right now. They don't disagree with you, but they completely turn on when they hear the conflation of Jews, Zionism, Israel and think automatically anti-Semitism, whether it's fair or not, okay? But you have to understand it. And you have to understand it from a cultural perspective in which the recent history is only one data point in 2,000 years of history as it relates to what it means to be a Jew. Of which is there is what? 1%, 0.5% of the entire world's population? Because I don't know what it adds to your argument or what it adds to your argument about Maryam Adelson being able to give $300 million to Donald Trump and commit to giving another $300 million to get her away and we end up in a war with Ruret.

Nick Fuentes [90:01] Yeah, well, and I think that's a valid point. I do think, though, that the issue's broader than just Netanyahu.

Hunter Biden [90:07] Well, maybe, by the way, obviously, Netanyahu has a base within Israel, within the Jewish community here in the United States with Jared Kushner, you know what I mean? Jared Kushner, who's unelected, not a member of our government, is having as more control over the direction of everyday lives of American people right now than anybody that I know of. And meanwhile, all he's doing is building a $6 billion private equity fund with the people he is negotiating for. And I always say, look who's paying him and wondering whose interest that he is advancing. He's getting paid by the Saudis, and get paid by the Emirates, paid by the Qataris, just getting paid, go down the list. And for some reason, he is in control along with Steve Whitcough, who is also not elected by anybody, of deciding whether or not the streets of our music are going to open up and whether or not our gas places are going to go down. It may not matter to the three of us, necessarily, you know, an extra dollar, 60 cents or 85 cents. But, you know what? To 85% of the people living in America means it. It's the difference between whether or not they're going to be able to pay rent, you know? Whether or not you're going to be able to actually put the gas in your car in Montana to drive to your job on the, you know, on the ranch.

Nick Fuentes [91:25] Well, and here's what I'll say to you, and this is something kind of what I want to do this interview is emphasize the message that, as far as Jews are concerned in general, I think that it's the same standard that applies to everybody, which as long as you're patriotic, as long as you believe Americans should be put first by their government, I have no problem at all. And I think that everybody in the country should be treated with dignity and respect and have their civil rights. It's just this acute problem of these people, like you mentioned, like Larry Ellison, and Miriam Adelson, and Jared Kushner, they're putting some other country before the interest of our own. And that in principle is what I have a problem with.

Andrew Callaghan [91:59] There is going to be some people who watch this and feel like, all right, no take back sees. And they might feel like you're just kind of trying to moderate, and now that you've achieved your goal and got a lot of support, you're kind of moderating, because your main aim has already been achieved, which just sort of have a generational run and pop off. So now you're trying to kind of make your way more into the mainstream discourse, but you'll just go back again into the same sort of reactionary rhetoric once you're back in a number one spot.

Nick Fuentes [92:23] Well, I don't even think I'm moderating, and I even told our mutual friend, it's not even a moderation, it's not even an apology, it's clarifying, because all along I've been saying this message, it's just that the way that I'm saying it changes and evolves. I also think how people respond to it changes as well, because let's be honest, 10 years ago, there was a very different kind of conversation about Israel. You could not mention it in a negative or critical way without being utterly annihilated in politics. We all know that ever since October 7th, that's not the case anymore. So I think that there's sort of something reciprocal happening, which is that people are receiving me differently, and as someone that's growing older and more mature, I'm even representing myself differently. So I wouldn't even call moderating, just clarifying people are more receptive, and I'm maybe better able to articulate it.

Andrew Callaghan [93:15] And you think that's because you've kind of got an older and been able to have like a longer career and media to reflect on your different changes in your perhaps brain chemistry and lifestyle.

Nick Fuentes [93:23] That's a huge thing. I mean, I know it's 27. I have a very different mentality than I did when I was 20.

Andrew Callaghan [93:28] What's that? I mean, kind of made a difference.

Nick Fuentes [93:30] Just more even keeled. And I think every, you know, you know too, it's like when you're 20, you're just like a maniac, and then you hit 25 and you're like, all right, you know.

Hunter Biden [93:37] I was a maniac when I was 49. My brain chemistry has definitely changed to the last seven years too. And I do believe that people can grow and they can change. And I'm not asking you too. And I'm not asking you to say things. But there are certain things that I just hope that you can hear without feeling attacked, that some of the things that you said, whether it's as learning otherwise, are really hurtful. And then people completely turn off to the idea of being able to listen to you about anything, and then you get dug in more, and you're like, oh, fuck yourself. Like, you know, you can't take a joke kind of thing. And that's not what it is. It's not just wokeism, it's just, it's not. It's people being really, really hurt by it. And I accept your apology for all the mean things you said about me. Yes. Yeah, you know, I'm on my apology tour. Is that the one thing you did say, you said I was a degenerate crackhead. And I have to, the problem with that, not you. Me? And I also said you were cool though. Yeah, no, by the way, you said a degenerate crackhead. And you know what, I'm not even mad about that because I wasn't a degenerate crackhead. I spent more time on my hands and knees smoking anything that even remotely resembled crack cocaine. It's true.

Andrew Callaghan [94:53] And now you're sober. Yeah, funny, interesting. You also said that you've never drank before.

Nick Fuentes [94:57] Right.

Hunter Biden [94:57] Yeah, I've never had a drink, never done drugs. That's because you grew up, you know, with me. You like, don't be that guy. I grew up with you too, and I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. You're not as smart as he is. My brother never drank. My dad too, and I was going to ask, you know,

Andrew Callaghan [95:16] what kind of prompted your choice to just like be sober for life and never drink?

Nick Fuentes [95:20] Well, you know, a big part of it is I had a lot of addiction in my family, you know. My grandfather was an alcoholic, committed suicide. Uncle died from an overdose from crack cocaine. My mom, two of her uncles, heroin addicts for their entire lives. And I just devastated my family, devastated both of my parents. And so I know I have that addictive personality and probably have the genetics for it. And not only that, but I like being rational. I like having my sober mind. I think that's actually a sacred thing to have unimpaired reason. So the thought of losing control and even being tempted to get into, you know, worse things, I just thought it's just not worth the risk. So it's just never for me.

Hunter Biden [96:02] Well, how much, by the way, sorry, do we have time? Is it, how much do you think COVID warped not just your generation, but everybody? I have this theory that there was this thing that broke for us with COVID and that nobody's really come to terms with how traumatic that was for everyone.

Nick Fuentes [96:26] And especially for the younger generations. I think severely less for the older generations, but for the younger people missing the graduations, missing critical years in school. That's when the socialization happens. That's when you learn to get along. And so you think about how this generation's going to grow up having two to three lost years, you know, no sports, no school, no extracurriculars, vacations. It's devastating. And we already had a problem with that isolation, social dislocation, loneliness. I can't even imagine. So it's going to be devastating, I think. But that's a lockdown.

Andrew Callaghan [96:59] So maybe if you're watching this video after this, you know, put your phone or computer away, go outside and make a friend, just do anything but scroll to the next video. Back in the day during Nickelodeon, they had go outside day. Oh, yeah. You know, I feel like we need like one day a week where it's mandated in a tech oligarch sense that no one can go on their phone or use the computer.

Hunter Biden [97:16] Man, I would love that. I mean, that's one thing is the one thing we could all agree on. The way I say it now is you're all carrying around a bag of heroin in your pocket. Everybody is. And it's probably even more dangerous in some ways. Would either of you guys ever run for office? Did you ask me for real? Yeah. No, I think that politics, the way that my dad engaged in it, and that I'm obviously incredibly biased, is an incredibly noble thing. But that's not what my head is in terms of what I want to do. I want to reach. My whole thing is, is that forget all of this. I want to reach a million people in addiction. I think one of the biggest things about addiction and one of the reasons why it continues to be this epidemic is that we don't talk about it. Is that you don't even talk about it and run a dinner table. And what you realize, if you're coming from my particular unique situation, is that everybody comes to me and they tell me their story. And sharing that is like, breaks that cycle of shame. And so I want to reach a million people in addiction. How about you, Nick? Was you ever run for office?

Nick Fuentes [98:27] I don't think so, no. Just because you can't, I don't think you can fully be authentic when you're running for office because you, it's a different role. And I think my role, they say, according to the Overton window idea. Ideas that are inside the Overton window are ideas that are politically safe. The public is ready to accept them. They say that if you want to change people's opinions and what they consider acceptable, you kind of have to be the first of the punch and maybe consider the bad person or evil or whatever in order to promote your view. And so that just does a landed self to that kind of politics. So I think to protect my own integrity and authenticity of the message, I have to not run for office.

Hunter Biden [99:06] She will be just in. We just made probably the entire audience happy. One half, it's glad I'm not running. The other half is really glad he's not running.

Andrew Callaghan [99:14] Well, if not you guys then, is there any candidate or perspective candidate that you feel like could run in 2028 that would have a fair shot that y'all support?

Nick Fuentes [99:23] Nobody in particular for me. I honestly, I haven't really been to impressed with who's come out of the Republican party. So I'm hoping there'll just be somebody we haven't heard of, somebody maybe that hasn't been in office before.

Hunter Biden [99:34] He's voting for Gavin Newsom in 2028.

Nick Fuentes [99:36] That's right, yeah. Well, if it's new some advance,

Andrew Callaghan [99:39] I certainly think about it. How about you, anybody that you know?

Hunter Biden [99:44] It's a twinkling your eye. No, I think that there are a lot of people. I mean, I know that you think that you're gonna laugh at me, but I personally like Gavin Newsom a lot. I think that he's authentic in those cities, whether you agree with them or not. Thomas Massey's principal stand as it relates to the Epstein files, was incredibly courageous.

Thomas Massie clip [100:04] Do not let the Senate muck this bill up. I am sorry if one of your billionaire donors is gonna get embarrassed because he went to Ray Pylon.

Hunter Biden [100:12] And that's why he's not gonna be a congressman anymore. But that's why you know, he could potentially make a really strong national candidate.

Andrew Callaghan [100:19] And you guys think America will exist in a post Epstein capture freeway?

Nick Fuentes [100:24] Will America exist?

Andrew Callaghan [100:25] Yeah, like, you know, will America survive the current power structures strangle hold on the media, the political system, and all public affairs?

Nick Fuentes [100:32] I don't know. I think AI is gonna really be transformative. It's interesting. Nobody seems to be talking about that. Transformative in what sense, like for bad? Concentration, a power. That's the biggest, single biggest. And you know what? I'm actually on the liberal side on this with Anthropic over the, let's say, you know, because there's this battle between these effective altruists, effective accelerationists. And I really am nervous about what's gonna happen, especially in the next four years, because they're racing towards this artificial general intelligence, artificial superintelligence. And that without a doubt is gonna be the single biggest influence on the country. And so I'm really worried about that. And what about that concern? Do you think it's surveillance? It's the concentration of power in the hands of whoever controls it. Whichever firm is the one to develop ASI, that could confer dictatorial-like powers upon the CEO of that company. Whether that's Sam Altman or Dario, you know, if the artificial intelligence is aligned with its creator, that person will become the most powerful person in the history of mankind. On that day.

Hunter Biden [101:31] It's almost the inherent truth in my opinion. What he just said is that the greatest leap and human evolution is gonna happen within our lifetimes. AGI, let alone, you know, superintelligence, is everything that we think about the way in which we exist in the world completely changes. And I don't think that that's in any way hypervely. And if you listen to the people that are developing these technologies right now, they are the most alarmist.

Sam Altman clip [101:59] I think AGI will probably most likely sort of lead to the end of the world.

Hunter Biden [102:04] If you wanna know what life's like when you're not the apex intelligence, ask a chicken. And now, by the way, I think that there is an enormous possibility for incredibly beneficial things to society, like being able to cure cancer. I just think of this one thing. Everything that AGI has built on is ours, belongs to you, and you, and you, all the way back through the human civilization. That's what they're stealing from us. And they're putting it into the hands of literally a handful of people, all of that human knowledge and the value that comes from it. And I think that that's ours. So any AGI that is developed, particularly because AGI, it should be communal. It should be shared in the, not just the beneficial offshoot of it, but the actual money of it should be shared.

Nick Fuentes [102:56] Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think it's like nuclear bombs, but it's also a commodity at the same time. The weapons potential, the economic potential, I think that's gonna be the biggest thing. And I hope on some level that liberals win that argument because, you know, what Trump is doing with the Pentagon, Anthropic, and Open AI, the way they're handling it is so reckless and sloppy and just honestly unbelievable. So we need some adults in the room on that one.

Andrew Callaghan [103:23] Well, it's been a great conversation. I appreciate you guys for coming. You guys have any final questions you wanna ask to each other or maybe a message you wanna give to the American people.

Hunter Biden [103:31] I still believe in America, and I truly believe in these conversations. And I think everyone that's watching would think that I would not want to sit down with them. And this I guess what I'm getting back with you is that I hope you see the humanity of me. And so when the way that you talk in the future takes that into consideration. And what I'll do is I will see the humanity in you.

Nick Fuentes [103:53] Yeah, I agree. I think it was a great conversation. And I think that, you know, we have to come together on the things that we agree on, which is, for example, that we love the country. We both believe in America. We both want the country to succeed. And I'd like what you said that we see the fundamental humanity in each other. And I think that, you know, especially in the events of the last year, the killing a Charlie Kirk, you realize that's actually not something that people on both sides share. I think there's people on the right and the left that don't see the humanity in the other side. And so maybe that's the new consensus or that's where you can come together as on the basis that, you know, we disagree on fundamental issues and even sometimes it gets heated. Now we yell at each other, but that we do ultimately want the best for each other. We love each other. We want the country to succeed. And I think that's a starting point for any solution and any conversation. All right, American brothers. Thank you guys so much for your time.

Andrew Callaghan [104:41] I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. After interviewing Hunter and Nick about a variety of contentious topics, not limited to, but including the Iran war and ongoing conflict in the Middle East, I thought to myself, you know what? Maybe I should just go. Maybe I should apply for a visa from the IRGC and fly to Tehran to go to a death to America rally, after which I'll scour the scene to find the underground culture of the city and figure out how unveiled Tehran street folks actually feel about the government and eat some great food and see some sights while I'm at it. So I did just that with the help of the OG Vice News Group. If you guys want to see our extensive coverage captured in Iran, go to our Patreon at www.patreon.com slash channel five. If I had it my way, everything would be free. But hiring fixers, renting equipment, traveling across the world and fighting lawsuits against powerful people is very, very expensive and time consuming, so we need your support. Channel five, as mentioned, is a totally independent crowdfunded newsroom. We can only make money three ways. Merchandise, limited ad rates, and of course, Patreon. We're a sizable army of real ones, pay five bucks a month to get access to an entire catalog of uncensored, early exclusive and crazy ass content. So if you want to support us and see more, again, it's www.patreon.com slash channel five. I'm gonna put the link in the pinned comment and description box of this video. Have a great day.

clip [105:54] Channel five live, world wide, Hollywood and vibe.

Donald Trump clip [105:56] Fuck the authority, channel five news. Channel 55, we don't fuck with costars. And five is the best number.

Nick Fuentes [106:04] Yeah!

They weren't really arguing about cancellation. They were arguing about who gets to belong.

Hunter tried to redirect real alienation away from minorities and toward oligarchy, platforms, addiction, and collapsed community. Nick wanted recognition for abandoned young men, but kept tying that need to racial and Jewish blame. The missing piece was rooted belonging without exclusion.

What neither of them said Concrete design for belonging. It would have moved them from symbolic enemies to institutions where rooted community does not require racial exclusion.

Hunter Biden

Is protecting

Dignity across difference.

Without it, belonging becomes domination.

How Hunter knows: Lived harm, historical memory, and structural patterns.
The developmental read: Holds wide moral care, but makes precise claims without enough proof.
Blind spot: Can't see how majority-group rootedness can be legitimate before it becomes racialized.
Smallest move that would help: Grant that white-majority loss can feel real even when racial blame is wrong.

Nick Fuentes

Is protecting

Rooted belonging.

Without it, alienated people outsource identity to resentment.

How Nick knows: Mechanisms, backlash, incentives, and institutional distrust.
The developmental read: Tracks platforms, donors, AI, and dislocation, but treats race and Jews as weakly testable threat categories.
Blind spot: Can't see how collective blame destroys the civic legitimacy his critique needs.
Smallest move that would help: Stop using racial or Jewish identity as a proxy for social threat.

The tension underneath

The tension is real. They weren’t standing in the same place.

Hunter’s pole

Inclusionary Pluralism

Protects Civic trust across difference

Overdone Abstract inclusion that ignores local loss

Holding both

Build familiar local communities with no racial, religious, or ethnic test for full membership.

Nick’s pole

Group Identity

Protects Continuity and inherited cultural meaning

Overdone Racial boundary-making as community repair

How Nick held it: In both upside and downside: belonging slides into racial exclusion and collective blame.

On the facts

Not an even contest.

Hunter overreached with unsourced statistics, corruption claims, and motives. Nick was substantially less reliable, relying on Holocaust falsehoods, racialized blame, false equivalence, and broad claims about Jews and Black Americans.

Hunter3 flagged, 2 unsourced or wrong

Nick7 flagged, 7 unsourced or wrong

Verdicts are the analysis’s judgement and are not independently sourced.

See every flagged claim →

The conversation

Dialogue that kept turning into debate.

Hunter set moral terms; Nick’s identity defense pulled topics toward justification.

Reputation repair, race rupture, recovery around Trump, AI, and mutual humanity.

Hunter was playing discourse: Trades in harm and history; wants dignity to constrain speech.
Nick was playing dialogue: Trades in process and mechanisms; wants grievance heard without banishment.

Where they met

They agreed humanity had to stay visible.

Hunter: I will see the humanity in you.

Nick: we see the fundamental humanity in each other.

That agreement showed the channel could recover after racial and Holocaust conflict.

A sentence that might have worked

When Hunter says When you compare my wife's family to cookies , Nick hears You're lecturing me into silence. The same point, in words the other could hear:

I'm not trying to silence you; that joke closes the channel before your argument arrives.

More translations in the Synthesis →

Moments that mattered

Watch the debate turn.

01He Was Better at Speech Than RaceHis strongest nuance appeared exactly where identity receded.
The oddest asymmetry in the whole exchange is that Nick becomes noticeably more careful the moment the subject stops being race and starts being process. On speech, platforms, and AI, he can suddenly tolerate tradeoffs, rules, even shared standards. On race, that capacity collapses almost instantly into blunt sorting language.
You can feel the split in two adjacent versions of him. One says platforms need rules and appeals. The other says, flatly, who he does and does not want to live around. It’s the same person, same interview, same claimed concern about belonging. But one framework can handle complexity and the other can’t. That makes his real center of gravity clearer than his self-description does: he isn’t mainly a principled absolutist. He’s selective. He can integrate when the issue threatens power; he polarizes when the issue threatens identity.
Nick Fuentes: maybe it is a civil right to use the digital platforms, but here are the rules. Here's what you can say. Here's what you can't say. Here's the process.
Nick Fuentes: I'm not living around blacks. Sorry. I want white kids. And I don't want my white kids bringing home black people to marry.
People often mistake selective sophistication for general sophistication; the real test is where their complexity disappears.
02The Moderator Found the Missing CountryHe named the problem both men kept circling.
Core members
03He Gave Away the JokeThe concession looked moral, but it was strategic.
Core members
04Hunter Kept Winning the Wrong ArgumentHe could defeat the scapegoat and still miss the ache.
Core members
05They Met Inside TrumpThe fake populist became their accidental common language.
Core members

The question that could have moved them

What form of American belonging could make alienated young white men feel at home while keeping Hunter’s Jewish son and a Black commuter safe under the same rules?

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The speakers

What each one argued, how each one thinks, and where each stood on every tension.

Hunter Biden

3.5Multi-variable→ 4.0 Multi-perspective

centre of gravity in this debate, and its reach

What do these labels mean? →

Nick Fuentes

3.0Single-frame→ 3.5 Multi-variable

centre of gravity in this debate, and its reach

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

Hunter argues that alienation is real, but its target has been misidentified. He tries to redirect grievance away from minorities and toward oligarchy, platforms, addiction, public shame, and collapsed community.

Good-Faith Summary

Nick argues that censorship, deplatforming, elite capture, and social dislocation have radicalized young people who feel abandoned. He wants recognition as a dissident critic rather than a caricature, but repeatedly entangles that critique with racial and antisemitic generalization.

Developmental profile

Where each speaker’s thinking sat in this debate, line by line. Hover or tap a name to see one speaker at a time; tap a ring for the reason and the moment that shows it.

Overall

Cognitive

Moral

Values

Worldview

Spiritual

What do the lines and names mean? →

The debate, moment by moment

Every moment the analysis cites as evidence, placed where it happened. Stage marks are coloured by stage. Tap any mark to read it and play it.

Hunter

0:0010:0020:0030:0040:0050:0060:0070:0080:0090:00100:00

Nick

All 46 moments, in order

Hunter · Defending Inclusionary Pluralism (4.0)
Nick · Flagged (unsourced): Racialized Chicago crime
Nick · Spiritual line: 2.5 Group-anchored
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Claimed 100 million white WWII deaths
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Denied six million Jewish Holocaust deaths
Hunter · Worldview line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Nick · Worldview line: 3.0 Single-frame
Nick · Reach: 3.5 Multi-variable
Nick · Defending Stability (3.0)
Hunter · Centre of gravity: 3.5 Multi-variable
Hunter · Defending Responsible Speech (4.0)
Nick · Defending Free Expression (3.5)
Highlight: He Was Better at Speech Than Race
Nick · Defending Free Expression (3.5)
Hunter · Flagged (overstated): Claimed social media drives suicide
Nick · Flagged (distorted): Equated white-only spaces with ethnic enclaves
Hunter · Defending Historical Context (3.5)
Nick · Defending Group Identity (2.5)
Nick · Defending Group Identity (2.5)
Nick · Defending Individual Responsibility (3.0)
Nick · Flagged (distorted): Made politics from partner's identity
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Said Minneapolis burned down
Nick · Defending Individual Responsibility (3.0)
Hunter · Values line: 4.0 Multi-perspective
Hunter · Defending Inclusionary Pluralism (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Historical Context (3.5)
Highlight: The Moderator Found the Missing Country
Hunter · Cognitive line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Highlight: Hunter Kept Winning the Wrong Argument
Hunter · Flagged (unsourced): Claimed poor red states dwarf city crime
Nick · Cognitive line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Hunter · Defending Empathic Restraint (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Empathic Restraint (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Responsible Speech (4.0)
Nick · Defending Transgressive Candor (3.0)
Highlight: He Gave Away the Joke
Nick · Flagged (unsourced): Blamed Jews for U.S. problems
Nick · Centre of gravity: 3.0 Single-frame
Highlight: They Met Inside Trump
Hunter · Flagged (unsourced): Claimed Trump sons got huge DOD contracts
Hunter · Defending Change (4.0)
Nick · Defending Stability (3.0)
Nick · Moral line: 3.0 Single-frame
Hunter · Moral line: 4.0 Multi-perspective
Nick · Values line: 3.0 Single-frame
Hunter · Defending Change (4.0)

Polarities

The side each speaker took in each tension, and the developmental centre of the side they defended.

Hunter Biden’s side

Nick Fuentes’s side

4.0Multi-perspectiveInclusionary Pluralism

Group Identity2.5Group-anchored

4.0Multi-perspectiveResponsible Speech

Free Expression3.5Multi-variable

4.0Multi-perspectiveEmpathic Restraint

Transgressive Candor3.0Single-frame

3.5Multi-variableHistorical Context

Individual Responsibility3.0Single-frame

4.0Multi-perspectiveChange

Stability3.0Single-frame

The Tell

He repeatedly returns to shared humanity when the exchange threatens to collapse into accusation.

The Tell

He often shifts into procedural fairness when moral accountability becomes threatening.

Hunter Biden

3.5Multi-variable→ 4.0 Multi-perspective

centre of gravity in this debate, and its reach

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

The Tell

He repeatedly returns to shared humanity when the exchange threatens to collapse into accusation.

Nick Fuentes

3.0Single-frame→ 3.5 Multi-variable

centre of gravity in this debate, and its reach

What do these labels mean? →

Good-Faith Summary

The Tell

He often shifts into procedural fairness when moral accountability becomes threatening.

Developmental profile

Where each speaker’s thinking sat in this debate, line by line. Hover or tap a name to see one speaker at a time; tap a ring for the reason and the moment that shows it.

Overall

Cognitive

Moral

Values

Worldview

Spiritual

What do the lines and names mean? →

The debate, moment by moment

Every moment the analysis cites as evidence, placed where it happened. Stage marks are coloured by stage. Tap any mark to read it and play it.

Hunter

0:0010:0020:0030:0040:0050:0060:0070:0080:0090:00100:00

Nick

All 46 moments, in order

Hunter · Defending Inclusionary Pluralism (4.0)
Nick · Flagged (unsourced): Racialized Chicago crime
Nick · Spiritual line: 2.5 Group-anchored
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Claimed 100 million white WWII deaths
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Denied six million Jewish Holocaust deaths
Hunter · Worldview line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Nick · Worldview line: 3.0 Single-frame
Nick · Reach: 3.5 Multi-variable
Nick · Defending Stability (3.0)
Hunter · Centre of gravity: 3.5 Multi-variable
Hunter · Defending Responsible Speech (4.0)
Nick · Defending Free Expression (3.5)
Highlight: He Was Better at Speech Than Race
Nick · Defending Free Expression (3.5)
Hunter · Flagged (overstated): Claimed social media drives suicide
Nick · Flagged (distorted): Equated white-only spaces with ethnic enclaves
Hunter · Defending Historical Context (3.5)
Nick · Defending Group Identity (2.5)
Nick · Defending Group Identity (2.5)
Nick · Defending Individual Responsibility (3.0)
Nick · Flagged (distorted): Made politics from partner's identity
Nick · Flagged (wrong): Said Minneapolis burned down
Nick · Defending Individual Responsibility (3.0)
Hunter · Values line: 4.0 Multi-perspective
Hunter · Defending Inclusionary Pluralism (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Historical Context (3.5)
Highlight: The Moderator Found the Missing Country
Hunter · Cognitive line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Highlight: Hunter Kept Winning the Wrong Argument
Hunter · Flagged (unsourced): Claimed poor red states dwarf city crime
Nick · Cognitive line: 3.5 Multi-variable
Hunter · Defending Empathic Restraint (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Empathic Restraint (4.0)
Hunter · Defending Responsible Speech (4.0)
Nick · Defending Transgressive Candor (3.0)
Highlight: He Gave Away the Joke
Nick · Flagged (unsourced): Blamed Jews for U.S. problems
Nick · Centre of gravity: 3.0 Single-frame
Highlight: They Met Inside Trump
Hunter · Flagged (unsourced): Claimed Trump sons got huge DOD contracts
Hunter · Defending Change (4.0)
Nick · Defending Stability (3.0)
Nick · Moral line: 3.0 Single-frame
Hunter · Moral line: 4.0 Multi-perspective
Nick · Values line: 3.0 Single-frame
Hunter · Defending Change (4.0)

Polarities

The side each speaker took in each tension, and the developmental centre of the side they defended.

Hunter Biden’s side

Nick Fuentes’s side

4.0Multi-perspectiveInclusionary Pluralism

Group Identity2.5Group-anchored

4.0Multi-perspectiveResponsible Speech

Free Expression3.5Multi-variable

4.0Multi-perspectiveEmpathic Restraint

Transgressive Candor3.0Single-frame

3.5Multi-variableHistorical Context

Individual Responsibility3.0Single-frame

4.0Multi-perspectiveChange

Stability3.0Single-frame

The full analysis

Six sections, with the evidence behind every finding.

Every debate has a surface argument and a deeper one. This section maps both — what each speaker is explicitly claiming, what they're actually trying to protect, and where their real disagreement lives. Start here to understand what's actually at stake before the analysis begins.

Hunter Biden

Hunter Biden’s core argument is that ordinary American alienation is real, but Nick Fuentes is misidentifying its cause. He repeatedly grants that young people, especially young men, feel isolated, economically locked out, socially dislocated, and culturally disposable. But he insists that the legitimate anger produced by that condition should not be aimed at Black people, immigrants, Jews, or other minorities. His organizing principle is inclusionary pluralism: America’s strength has historically come from expanding who belongs, not from retreating into racial or religious enclosure. He frames racial scapegoating as a recurring American mistake, comparing contemporary anti-immigrant and anti-Black rhetoric to earlier suspicion of Irish Catholics and other once-excluded groups.

The emotional stakes for Hunter are deeply personal. He is trying to protect Jewish family members, minority communities, people in addiction, and people who have been publicly shamed or dehumanized. He also seems to be protecting the possibility that someone with a damaged public reputation can still tell the truth and participate in public life. He fears being seen as naïve for sitting with Fuentes, or as insufficiently protective of Jews and other targeted groups. At the same time, he does not want to reduce Fuentes to the worst things he has said. His strongest moments come when he says, in effect: I am willing to see your humanity, but that requires you to understand the humanity of people you have mocked.

His dominant narrative metaphor is misdirected anger in a collapsing social order. For Hunter, the country is not primarily divided because ordinary people naturally hate each other; it is divided because oligarchic, media, tech, and political actors profit from keeping people alienated and enraged. In this story, antisemitic jokes, racialized crime narratives, and anti-immigrant rhetoric are not just offensive; they function as diversions from the real concentration of power. The strongest version of his argument is: young people’s pain is legitimate, but when influential speakers turn pain into contempt for vulnerable groups, they both harm those groups and weaken their own critique of elite power. There is a tension in his enactment: he calls for dialogue and empathy, but sometimes moves into extended lectures, motive attribution, and unsourced factual claims that make his appeal to careful listening harder to sustain.

Nick Fuentes

Nick Fuentes presents himself as someone who has been caricatured as a Nazi or white supremacist when, in his view, he is better understood as a dissident nationalist, Christian, and critic of establishment power. He says he rejects Nazism because it is “a non-Christian ideology” and because he believes in “a universal human community,” while also saying that race is real and that white people have legitimate grievances about being displaced, censored, or culturally delegitimized. His core worldview is that mainstream institutions, media watchdogs, social platforms, and establishment conservatives have policed speech so aggressively that they radicalized the very people they wanted to suppress. Deplatforming, for him, is not merely inconvenience; it is exclusion from the modern public square.

The emotional stakes for Fuentes are recognition, dignity, and belonging for people he sees as politically and culturally abandoned. He wants to protect young right-wing men from being treated as irredeemable, and he wants to protect the ability to say taboo things without immediate social death. He fears being permanently defined by old clips, being morally lectured rather than heard, and being accused of hatred when he experiences himself as provocative, humorous, or oppositional. His dominant metaphor is the pressure cooker: if people are denied a seat at the table, they will go online, form insulated communities, and eventually seek radical options outside normal politics.

The strongest version of Fuentes’s argument is that societies need open channels for unpopular grievances, clear rules for speech platforms, and serious recognition that community collapse and elite capture are producing dangerous political alienation. He is also capable of real concessions: he acknowledges that edge-lord humor has become tired, that “wokeism” helped make people more empathetic, that Trump is a liar without ideological core, and that AI and oligarchic power may be existentially dangerous. But his stated principles diverge sharply from his enacted positions. He says Jews and others should receive dignity, respect, and civil rights, yet repeatedly generalizes about “Jews as such” and Jewish influence. He says the problem is crime rather than Black people, yet immediately racializes crime in Chicago. He says he rejects cruelty, but defends Holocaust jokes as funny because they are offensive. The charitable reading is that he is trying to move from transgressive identity politics toward a more defensible nationalist critique; the transcript shows that he has not fully disentangled that critique from racial and antisemitic collective blame.

Good arguments can still contain weak evidence, logical slippage, or rhetorical moves that substitute for reasoning. This section examines each speaker's argumentative integrity — not to declare a winner, but to identify where the strongest and weakest links are in each case.

Claims flagged in this section Verdicts are the analysis’s judgement and are not independently sourced.
Who	Claim	Verdict
Nick	Denied six million Jewish Holocaust deaths.it's not 6 million.Established Holocaust scholarship supports about six million Jewish victims; he gave no evidence.	Wrong
Nick	Claimed 100 million white WWII deaths.100 million whites that died in World War II?Standard World War II estimates do not support that total or the racial framing.	Wrong
Nick	Racialized Chicago crime.And we know who's doing the crime in Chicago.It was offered without evidence and turned crime data into collective racial blame.	Unsourced
Nick	Equated white-only spaces with ethnic enclaves.there are ethnic enclaves.It ignored how many enclaves came from exclusion, redlining, safety, language, and constraint.	Distorted
Nick	Said Minneapolis burned down.Minneapolis burned to the groundSerious fires occurred, but the city did not burn to the ground.	Wrong
Nick	Made politics from partner's identity.Because he's got a transgender boyfriend, yeah.A partner's gender identity does not establish the accused person's politics.	Distorted
Nick	Blamed Jews for U.S. problems.Jews are causing a disproportionate amount of problemsThe analysis treats this as unsourced collective blame, not a demonstrated causal claim.	Unsourced
Hunter	Claimed social media drives suicide.they're driving teenage girlsResearch links social media and youth distress, but causation is contested and needs qualification.	Overstated
Hunter	Claimed poor red states dwarf city crime.their crime rates are 10 timesThe figure was asserted without data and depends on crimes, jurisdictions, and denominators.	Unsourced
Hunter	Claimed Trump sons got huge DOD contracts.Don and Eric have done over $1.3 billion in contractsThe transcript did not substantiate these post-2024 corruption claims.	Unsourced

Hunter Biden

Coherence strengths

Hunter’s strongest argumentative structure is his distinction-making. He repeatedly separates legitimate group pride from racial supremacy, critique of Israeli policy from Holocaust denial, and ordinary anger from scapegoating. His clearest formulation is at [11:14–11:41], where he distinguishes being “proud of your white heritage” from “being just a flat-out racist,” and disagreeing with U.S. policy toward Israel from “saying that the Holocaust didn’t exist.” That is a coherent and important framework because it allows criticism, belonging, and accountability without collapsing everything into moral panic.

He is also intellectually honest in several moments where he grants partial truth to Fuentes’s critique. He agrees that both left and right gatekeepers exist, that deplatforming and debanking can be abusive, that community collapse is real, and that Trump’s failures should be scrutinized across ideological lines. His strongest moral reasoning comes when he personalizes harm without simply demanding censorship: he explains how Holocaust jokes affect his Jewish family, then tries to connect that harm to Fuentes’s own desire to be heard.

Weaknesses and logical issues

Hunter frequently uses sweeping empirical claims without sourcing them. His claim that social media companies are “driving teenage girls to the highest levels of suicide by a factor, like exponential factors” [15:11] is epistemically sloppy. There is serious evidence linking social media use, mental health, and youth distress, but the causal literature is contested and cannot support the claim as stated without careful qualification.

His crime comparisons are also imprecise. He says, “I take the top 10 poorest red states in the country and their crime rates are 10 times what many urban centers are” [35:53]. This is an unsourced empirical claim used to counter Fuentes’s racialized urban-crime framing. It may point toward a real issue with poverty, rural crime, and selective media attention, but the “10 times” figure is asserted without warrant and likely depends heavily on which crimes, jurisdictions, and denominators are being compared. Similarly, “Carjackings do happen, but you know where they happen? They happen in Bluxy, Mississippi, just as much as they happen in Chicago” [36:22] is epistemically sloppy and likely overstated; carjacking rates vary substantially by city and require actual data.

Hunter sometimes relies on very specific political corruption claims that may be true, false, or partially true, but are not substantiated in the conversation. For example, he says, “Don and Eric have done over $1.3 billion in contracts” [68:53] and that “Don Jr. got the largest loan ever given by the Department of Defense” [69:02]. These are unsourced empirical claims used as decisive evidence. Because the transcript itself does not establish them and they concern post-2024 events outside clearly settled public record here, they should be treated as unverified within this debate.

There are moments of motive attribution. Hunter says to Fuentes, “Because you don’t want to piss off your mother” [33:20], apparently implying bad faith in Fuentes’s view of Elon Musk. He also says, “I think that you liked the most about Mark Levin is how cruel he was to the colors” [54:06], and then connects Fuentes’s attraction to Trump to “the cruelty of it” [55:26]. He later softens and clarifies this, but the move risks psychologizing Fuentes instead of demonstrating the causal connection.

Hunter also sometimes overcompresses history into moral narrative. His discussion of white flight, segregation, the Civil Rights Act, and post-1968 riots is broadly oriented toward real historical context, but his specific claim that “the numbers actually pre-1968 when King was shot, you had more people leave the city because of the desegregation, because of the 1964 Civil Rights Act than you did after the riots” [22:47] is unsourced and would require demographic evidence. The broader point that white flight was multi-causal and preceded the riots is historically credible; the specific numerical claim is not established in the transcript.

Epistemic style

Hunter’s dominant epistemic style is moral-historical and testimonial, mixed with populist structural analysis. He treats lived harm, historical memory, and patterns of exclusion as evidence, especially when discussing Jews, African-Americans, addiction, and public shame. He also invokes institutional authority at times, such as “the FBI and the authorities in Utah” [21:17], but his evidence style is not consistently data-driven. His best arguments come when he uses history to clarify categories; his weakest come when he reaches for precise statistics or corruption claims without sourcing them.

Nick Fuentes

Coherence strengths

Fuentes is most coherent when arguing that exclusion from mainstream social and digital systems can intensify radicalization. His description of deplatforming as opaque, ad hoc, and socially disabling is internally consistent, especially when he says YouTube banned him without “a specific quote” or “a specific infraction” [12:59–13:07]. He also makes a reasonable distinction between tolerating offensive speech and removing calls for violence: “I’m against violence, and I do think those are one of the legitimate things that should be taken from the platform” [12:35].

He is also comparatively strong when critiquing Trump from the right. His account of why Trump appealed in 2016, why many conservatives felt failed by McCain and Romney, and why he later concluded Trump lacked ideological core is coherent and responsive to Hunter’s challenge. He grants substantial ground: “you’re 100% right, no ideological core” [73:13] and “he’s a cruel narcissist” [73:21]. This is one of the places where he engages counterevidence rather than merely deflecting.

Weaknesses and logical issues

Fuentes’s argument is seriously weakened by factual falsehoods and collective blame. The Holocaust-denial clip in which he says, “it’s not 6 million. 6 million? I don’t think so” [05:08] is factually wrong per the established historical record and mainstream Holocaust scholarship. The companion claim that “100 million whites” died in World War II [05:01] is also factually wrong per standard World War II mortality estimates, which put total deaths lower than that and do not support the racial framing.

He repeatedly makes racialized empirical claims without adequate evidence. When Hunter says Fuentes is blaming Black people, Fuentes replies, “The problem is crime. And we know who’s doing the crime in Chicago” [25:23]. This is an unsourced empirical claim used as decisive evidence, and it functions rhetorically as collective racial blame. Even if crime data show racial disparities in particular offenses or locations, the leap from statistics to generalized group suspicion is logically invalid and morally corrosive.

His treatment of the “whites only community” relies on false equivalence. He compares an explicitly exclusionary white community to ethnic enclaves in cities: “there are ethnic enclaves” and “white people… want something similar” [16:22–16:43]. This framing ignores the historical difference between immigrant/minority enclaves formed through exclusion, redlining, safety, language, migration networks, and economic constraint, versus a community defined explicitly by racial exclusion. Hunter’s historical challenge directly addresses this gap.

Several of Fuentes’s causal claims are overbroad. He says, “a lot of the suburbanization is because of the race riots in the 1960s” [19:41]. This is directionally plausible as one factor in some cities, but epistemically sloppy as an explanatory frame unless integrated with FHA policy, highway construction, redlining, school segregation, tax incentives, deindustrialization, and racial attitudes that predated the riots. His statement that “Minneapolis burned to the ground” [23:18] is factually wrong; parts of Minneapolis experienced serious fires and destruction during the 2020 unrest, but the city did not burn to the ground, as the moderator also clarifies in the transcript.

Fuentes uses category errors and guilt-by-association reasoning. His claim that Tyler Robinson was liberal because “he’s got a transgender boyfriend” [20:53] is a category error: another person’s gender identity or relationship status does not establish the political ideology of the accused. He also moves from critique of Israel and pro-Israel donors into sweeping claims about Jewish identity. “I think that Jews are causing a disproportionate amount of problems in the United States” [58:13] is an unsourced collective-blame claim. His later statement that the issue “does have to do with Jews as such and Jewish nationalism and Jewish identity” [60:56] is frame conversion: a specific policy and lobbying question is converted into a generalized ethnic-religious question.

His AI and Vance arguments contain real concerns but also speculative leaps. The claim that ASI “could confer dictatorial-like powers upon the CEO of that company” [101:13] is genuinely contested and speculative; serious AI-risk thinkers discuss concentration of power, but the claim requires more careful conditions. His description of Vance as “basically a Manchurian candidate” [79:05] is rhetorical overreach. Public reporting supports that Peter Thiel significantly supported Vance’s career, but “Manchurian candidate” implies hidden control beyond what is established in the transcript.

Epistemic style

Fuentes’s epistemic style mixes grievance-based pattern recognition, ideological nationalism, personal anecdote, and oppositional media analysis. He often treats taboo-breaking and institutional backlash as evidence that he is touching something important. At his best, this helps him notice real problems with platform power, donor influence, and establishment hypocrisy. At his worst, it leads him to treat suspicion, provocation, and group-pattern claims as substitutes for evidence. There is a major gap between his claimed Christian universalism and dignity-for-all standard, and his actual use of racial and antisemitic generalizations.

Epistemic Mismatch Note

Hunter treats historical harm, personal testimony, and group vulnerability as morally relevant evidence; Fuentes treats censorship, backlash, and taboo status as evidence that suppressed grievances deserve airing. They often argue past each other because Hunter hears cruelty where Fuentes thinks he is defending candor, while Fuentes hears moral control where Hunter thinks he is naming foreseeable harm.

Net Assessment

Hunter is more coherent on the central moral distinction between critique and scapegoating, and he more consistently tries to connect grievance to shared humanity. However, he weakens his case with unsourced statistics, sweeping political claims, and occasional motive attribution. Fuentes is articulate and sometimes surprisingly willing to concede points, especially on Trump and platform rules, but his argument is substantially less reliable overall because it repeatedly relies on racialized generalization, false equivalence, Holocaust-related falsehoods, and conspiratorial or collective-blame framing.

Polarity: Inclusionary Pluralism vs. Group Identity

Summary: The debate asks whether collapsed belonging should be repaired through wider civic inclusion or tighter group-based identity. Integration: Belonging without exclusion Lever: Membership boundary

Pole 1 name: Inclusionary Pluralism Pole 1 tagline: Belonging across difference Pole 1 protects:

Civic trust across racial, religious, and cultural lines
The American promise that outsiders can become insiders Pole 1 neglects:
The emotional need for rooted, familiar group belonging
The fear of cultural disappearance among majority groups Pole 1 pathology:
Abstract inclusion that ignores local loss
Moral dismissal of group grief as mere bigotry

Pole 2 name: Group Identity Pole 2 tagline: Belonging through rootedness Pole 2 protects:

Continuity, familiarity, and inherited cultural meaning
The right to name group-specific fears and loyalties Pole 2 neglects:
Shared civic membership beyond ancestry or tribe
The danger of exclusion becoming domination Pole 2 pathology:
Racial boundary-making as community repair
Collective blame of out-groups for social decline

Speaker enactment:

Speaker: Hunter Biden Enacts: Pole 1 Pole Center line: values Pole Center: 4.0 Pluralist Pole Center rationale: The defended pole centers inclusion, equality, and widened civic belonging as core values, which reads as 4.0 because it prioritizes groups historically excluded by the dominant frame. Perspective Structure: 3.5 Managed Perspective Structure rationale: Hunter grants the legitimacy of alienation and belonging needs, but does not fully inhabit group identity as a positive value independent of its exclusionary pathology. Contributes: He defends an America strengthened by expanding who belongs. Misses:
- Majority-group loss can be emotionally real
- Inclusion needs concrete local forms Cues:
- "Inclusion has been our greatest strength."
- "Every time it's wrong, every time history is proven that that to be wrong in the United States of America."
Speaker: Nick Fuentes Enacts: Pole 2 Pole Center line: values Pole Center: 2.5 Conformist Pole Center rationale: Differs from the overall values rating (3.0) because this pole is defended through inherited ethnoracial belonging, familiarity, and in-group boundary protection rather than through a constrained universalizable principle. Perspective Structure: 2.5 Unipolar Perspective Structure rationale: Nick treats white group belonging as a threatened good and repeatedly collapses inclusionary pluralism into dispossession, making the opposing pole feel like an attack rather than a legitimate competing value. Held as: Both — legitimate belonging often slides into racial exclusion and collective blame [21:44] Contributes: He voices the hunger for familiarity among people who feel culturally displaced. Misses:
- Enclaves are not the same as exclusion
- Shared citizenship cannot survive racial sorting Cues:
- "white people do feel like we are being boxed out in major cities in the country."
- "white people feel like they're being pushed out and they want a space where things are familiar."

Mismatch: Hunter hears exclusion where Nick says belonging; Nick hears erasure where Hunter says inclusion. Mismatch A→B: When Hunter Biden says inclusion, Nick Fuentes tends to hear white dispossession. Mismatch B→A: When Nick Fuentes says group identity, Hunter Biden tends to hear racial exclusion. Bridge move: Ask what forms of rooted community could be protected without racial eligibility rules.

Synthesis: Inclusionary Pluralism protects the civic miracle Hunter keeps returning to: people once treated as outsiders can become part of the American “we.” His examples of Irish Catholics, Jews, African-Americans, immigrants, and working-class city dwellers all point to a country enlarged by membership rather than purified by ancestry. Group Identity protects something Hunter sometimes underestimates: people do need familiar places, inherited symbols, and communities where they feel seen without having to translate themselves. Nick’s strongest contribution is naming how young people without stable belonging become vulnerable to online substitutes, resentment, and artificial “values based communities.”

The mismatch is that Nick often expresses a real need through racialized examples that confirm Hunter’s worst fears. Hunter then responds to the pathology of exclusion, while Nick experiences that response as denial of the original need for rootedness. Nick is not wrong that belonging matters; Hunter is not wrong that explicitly racial belonging corrodes shared citizenship. Integration would ask: what institutions, neighborhoods, festivals, schools, churches, unions, and third places could make people feel culturally grounded without making anyone’s exclusion the price of someone else’s home?

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The Crux

On the factual and epistemic layer, the two positions were not equally reliable. Hunter Biden made several unsourced or overstated empirical claims, especially around crime rates, social media harms, and Trump-family corruption allegations, but he was more coherent on the central distinction between legitimate grievance and scapegoating. Nick Fuentes, by contrast, repeatedly relied on Holocaust-related falsehoods, racialized collective blame, false equivalence between ethnic enclaves and exclusionary white spaces, and broad claims about Jews and Black Americans that were either factually wrong, weakly evidenced, or morally corrosive. The most important structural finding is that Fuentes at times drew an ethnocentric circle of concern, most plainly when he said, “I'm not living around blacks. Sorry. I want white kids” [21:44]. That factual and moral asymmetry has to be held before any genuine polarity work begins.

Beneath that asymmetry, the true disagreement was not simply whether America should be “inclusive” or “nationalist.” It was the unresolved tension in Inclusionary Pluralism vs. Group Identity: Hunter feared that naming white grievance would become permission to blame minorities, while Fuentes feared that condemning racialized grievance would erase the need for rooted belonging altogether. The missing variable was a concrete design standard for belonging: how to build neighborhoods, platforms, institutions, and public rituals where people feel culturally grounded without making ancestry, religion, or race the price of admission.

The Higher-Order Reframe

The frame neither speaker fully entered is that collapsed belonging is not repaired by either moral inclusion alone or group boundary alone; it is repaired by designing forms of membership that create real attachment without converting attachment into exclusion. The integration handle already latent in the exchange is Belonging without exclusion, and the lever that would have changed the conversation is the Membership boundary. Hunter kept defending the widening of the American “we,” and Fuentes kept defending the hunger to be seen by a familiar “we.” The higher-order move is to treat both as incomplete answers to the same civic failure: people need a home, but a democratic home cannot be built by making other citizens permanent guests. This reframe also explains why the conversation could not quite sustain itself. As established in the Mode of Discourse section, the exchange rose into real dialogue around Trump, AI, addiction, and community collapse, but identity-threat moments pulled it back into adversarial correction.

Made by Corey deVos · About this analysis

Debate Analysis

Nick Fuentes Interview (Ft. Hunter Biden)

They weren't really arguing about cancellation. They were arguing about who gets to belong.

Hunter Biden

Nick Fuentes

The tension is real. They weren’t standing in the same place.

Not an even contest.

Dialogue that kept turning into debate.

They agreed humanity had to stay visible.

Watch the debate turn.

The speakers

Hunter Biden

Nick Fuentes

Developmental profile

The debate, moment by moment

Polarities

Hunter Biden

Nick Fuentes

Developmental profile

The debate, moment by moment

Polarities

The full analysis

Hunter Biden

Nick Fuentes

Hunter Biden

Nick Fuentes

Epistemic Mismatch Note

Net Assessment

Polarity: Inclusionary Pluralism vs. Group Identity

The Crux

The Higher-Order Reframe

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