Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas crossed the border into Lithuania three days before this conversation took place, after a five-day exodus from Kyiv, following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. This conversation is a call for action and support of the incredibly brave Ukrainian people, and illuminates their willingness to fight to the death to throw out the invaders who are there to crush their freedom and make Ukraine a colony of Putin’s Russia.
This is an informative, inspirational, and heartbreaking dialogue with two exceptionally insightful Integral leaders from the Ukraine—about propaganda and myth-making in our post-truth world, about integrating power, force, and love, about a new worldwide unity, and how the Integral perspective might pave the way towards world peace.
“One nation has opened the hearts of the whole world. What kind of conversations should we have now to foster this care and compassion, and move it in a constructive direction?”
Recorded March 5, 2022.
Topics & Timestamps
- Witnessing the beginning of this phase of Putin’s aggression: the Revolution of Dignity and the Annexation of Crimea in 2013 and 2014 (04:29)
- The Russian propaganda machine: painting Ukraine as a fascist country of Nazis (06:32)
- Putin’s masterful creation of a myth in this post-truth world (10:05)
- This is a fight for truth (17:40)
- Is there anything good about Putin? (23:51)
- Kateryna & Vytautas’ experience: the beginning of the invasion and the exodus to Lithuania (26:31)
- Sirens and bomb shelters are becoming routine; fear has turned to anger (39:55)
- Europe is united, NATO is united, Ukraine is united (42:15)
- How this invasion has reinforced Second Tier consciousness in the West (44:49)
- How long can Ukraine hold out? Are the sanctions enough? What about a Russian oil embargo? (46:58)
- What can Western countries do, what are they not doing, and why sanctions are so useful (50:58)
- Russian oligarchs and Putin in his bunker (54:50)
- Do we need to allow Putin to save face or just fight to the bitter end? (58:21)
- Denazification, demilitarization…dePutinification and other parallels (01:01:41)
- Putin’s narrative and the Russian Orthodox Church (01:03:01)
- Europa = Gayropa, Putin has assumed the role of protector of traditional values (01:06:18)
- How can we use the Integral metaperspective to heal what’s happening? (01:10:43)
- Why what Ukraine is doing is so inspiring: fighting out of love, not fear (01:12:05)
- Ukraine and others’ “showing up” is very Second Tier (01:13:06)
- One nation has opened the hearts of the whole world. How shall we integrate this and foster the care and compassion to steer it in a constructive direction? (01:14:18)
- Integrating power and love: facing our need to engage power with force (01:15:30)
- A new focus on World Peace from a Second Tier perspective (01:19:21)
- Glory to Ukraine, glory to heroes (01:22:15)
Resources & References
- Vytautas Bučiūnas’ website: Upgrade of Leader’s Operating SystemTM
- The Revolution of Dignity
- The Annexation of Crimea
- Brave New World of Putin, propaganda article waiting to be published after the occupation of Ukraine
- Philosopher Alexander Filonenko, Ph.D., “We Need Holiness”
- Spiral Dynamics’ Second Tier of consciousness
- The Russian Orthodox Church
- Russian Ministry of Culture website
- Adam Kahane, Power and Love: A Theory and Practice of Social Change*
- Martin Luther King, Jr.’s quote, “Power without love…”
- World Peace with the Integral Approach, Integral European Conference 2022
- Gravitas Plus, “Why Putin wants Ukraine,” an overview of the Russian-Ukrainian crisis
* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.
Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos
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About Kateryna Yasko
Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is an organizational psychologist, a trainer for the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution, and co-founder of the consulting company U-Integral. Her academic background is in the area of international relations and law (MSc), business (MBA), and psychology (MSc). She bases her programs on the principles of Ken Wilber’s Integral approach and Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication, and is certified in Spiral Dynamics Integral and in Susanne Cook-Greuter’s Maturity Assessment Profile. Kateryna is also head of the public association “International Institute for Integral Development” and a founder of the educational initiative EMPATIA.PRO, specializing in bringing holistic approaches into educational leadership and learning cultures.
About Vytautas Bučiūnas
Vytautas Bučiūnas (Lithuania–Ukraine) is a co-founder and managing partner of U-Integral, an integral leadership development company. Vytautas also has vast experience as a top manager in the banking sector including working as the Head of Resident Office, Senior Banker, Associate Director at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (Russia, Ukraine). Vytautas’ professional profile includes building organizational units from scratch, carrying out large-scale transformations, and managing crises. Vytautas is a certified Integral Master Coach™ (Integral Coaching Canada), an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC)™, and the only business consultant in Ukraine certified in Leadership Maturity Framework – Maturity Assessment for Professionals (LMF-MAP) and Global Leadership Profile (GLP). Vytautas explores the development of human consciousness and complex social systemsfrom a holistic perspective. He considers the growth of a critical mass of mature leaders with systemic thinking and transformational capabilities to be the key to society’s healthy development.
About John Dupuy
John Dupuy is co-founder and CEO of iAwake Technologies, a company that creates cutting-edge, high-tech brainwave entrainment soundtracks that support the healing of emotional/shadow issues, deepen meditation, mental focus, creativity, and flow states, and enhance a daily integral transformative practice. John has been working personally and professionally with brainwave entrainment technology since 2004, and travels internationally to teach and inspire on the subjects of Integral Transformative Practice and Integral Recovery®. John is also the author of Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction (SUNY Press, 2013), winner of the 2013 USA Best Book Award, and co-host of the popular Journey of Integral Recovery podcast. John also hosts the online series Spiritual Tech Talks 2.0, in which he converses with leaders, pioneers, and inventors on the current wave of emerging spiritual technologies.
So we applaud Ukrainian Nationalism, denigrate US Nationalism at every turn, recommend the Ukrainian Nationalists “take up arms” to defend themselves against oppressors, demand US Nationalists surrender arms so they can be oppressed. Application of Integral Theory in the real world is very tricky and nuanced. Very sneaky really…
I Stand with Ukraine!
The Big Dipper rises over my shoulder,
pouring its portion of the spiraling galaxy
into my ear
In silence, I seem to hear the faraway
explosions, stars and bombs bursting in air,
fireworks splitting the All
Modern echoes of the fractalizing Beginning:
the Great Bear birthing a new order somehow
akin to the Big Bang delivering the Dipper
Who or what revulsed in horror at the Origins?
Who or what sorrowed at what death, what loss?
When the oil fields burned in Kuwait, I was reduced
to element and sense, vowed to never cry again
over the stink of war
At the start of the Iraqi fight, I meditated on the true
shock and awe: the Mona Lisa smile round in the sky–
a golden full moon awake, intimate, mysterious
Both hawks and doves fly about my house,
sit on the rooftops, the screech and coo
in my own being giving way to quiet empty space–
I have cried again, tears for glory made and unmade
and made anew; creation and destruction, one breath
Inhale, exhale, and the gap: the pause of possibility
There is a certain peacefulness in the hollow shell.
For the Continuance that escapes the battered form,
the chance, the need, for peacemaking of another kind
In silence, can you hear the faraway…spiraling?
Can you hear the vows…intimate and mysterious?
Can you hear the need…the pause…the chance?
Continue the discussion at community.integrallife.com
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