“If Russia stops fighting, there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no more Ukraine.”

Integral leaders Kateryna Yasko, Vytautas Bučiūnas, and Bence Gánti illuminate many of the most poignant and pressing questions of our time, brought to the fore by the ongoing war in Ukraine: Can postmodern people embrace a warrior consciousness when necessary? Are Russians who explicitly support the war worthy of compassion? Can people remain sane and humane while at the same time taking up arms? How can we handle the effects of the psychological trauma that will cascade over generations? And how do we prevent the mass delusion and psychosis that is so easily propagated via modern media technology?

What are the global consequences of the Russian war on Ukraine? The trillions of dollars now being diverted to defense and military weaponry in the West are trillions of dollars that will not be spent on social programs, global health, education, climate change, and food—many people in Africa will starve as a result of this war on the breadbasket, wheat-producing Ukraine. What is wrong with democracy if its leaders can’t step up to the plate, be authentic, strong, and stand up for what is right, while autocrats do whatever they please? A powerful, heart wrenching conversation asking the right questions, pointing towards the answers.

If you would like to learn more about the fundraiser iAwake is running with Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas, who are giving on-the-ground support to Ukrainian refugees in the bordering countries, please click here.

Recorded April 15, 2022.

Topics & Timestamps: Part 1

• Ukraine update: the level of trauma has grown very high in the last month, both inside and outside Ukraine, with the discoveries in Bucha and elsewhere (03:18)
• Everyone feels guilty: the people who have fled, the people in the cities, the people in territorial defense: everyone feels a strong need to contribute more (05:03)
• The West is consolidating; there’s less naivete about Russia (07:45)
• People around the world can and need to contribute (09:34)
• True heroism is coming to the fore; this could be a wake up call for a lot of us (11:35)
• Bence Ganti, Integral leader and director of the Integral European Conference, talks about the situation in Hungary and the coming IEC in May 2022 (12:32)
• Kateryna’s perspective on recent weeks: facing an overwhelming, multi-fronted battle on all levels, it’s impossible to give yourself space to take care of yourself (15:40)
• In Russia, children in school are taught only propaganda; refugee children are traumatized and don’t speak the language of their host countries (18:28)
• Disappointment and frustration with opinion leaders, prominent intellectuals in the West, writing articles totally disconnected from the realities of the Ukrainian situation (19:55)
• Ukraine is slowing gaining agency on several fronts (21:35)
• This is a meta historic conflict; the West saying this conflict is their fault or the US’ fault is going too far; Russia has been threatening Ukraine since before the US existed (24:40)
• Otto Scharmer’s article about collaborative diplomacy is not good enough; it’s abstract and divorced from the physical realities of the situation (27:52)
• The reality is: “If Russia stops fighting, there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no more Ukraine.” (30:38)
• What is the most strategic response we can make in this situation to directly address this tragedy and its needs? (32:38)
• Children in primary school are very tuned in to the collective: smart teachers are using military analogies when teaching (35:12)
• We have to integrate the “red” stage of development in the educational system…we have to let boys play with guns and speak about it (37:40)
• We need an Integral stage to understand when to act with which stages (38:57)
• Green = a postmodern stage where we strive for harmony, unity, authenticity, connectedness and believe only with love we will solve all conflicts; red = the warrior stage; Integral = a yogi with a rifle (40:35)
• Ukrainians fighting from a place of love, somehow they are integrated (43:17)

Topics & Timestamps: Part 2

• The difference between Ukrainians and Russians is Ukrainians long to be and remain human and humane; but Russians have been through a long dehumanization process (01:00)
• How can we stick to the Geneva Conventions and not become what we’re fighting against? (01:59)
• Around 60% of Russians on the street honestly believe they are liberating Ukraine (04:59)
• The power of today’s information and communication technology, coupled with our awful vulnerability to delusional thinking, is a recipe for inducing culture-wide psychosis (07:05)
• The analogy with Nazi Germany and Putin’s Russia is right on (10:30)
• Are Russians who are brainwashed and explicitly supporting warfare worthy of our compassion? (11:30)
• What are the global ramifications, the psychological and cultural implications, of this great tragedy that will affect global health, social welfare, even the survival of the human species? (16:20)
• The systems we have been trusting to maintain global order were not good enough to save us from this challenge (20:34)
• How to come up with more Integral, inclusive solutions and systems of sensemaking? (21:22)
• The leadership factor in the West over the last 20+ years has been reactive, compliant, generally avoiding facing reality – until Zelensky (Vytautas’ keynote at IEC will be about this) (21:52)
• Working on solutions at the Integral European Conference (IEC) May 2022 online and in Budapest (25:05)
• How this invasion has opened hearts, created an explosion of trust, people are really “showing up” (Kateryna’s keynote at IEC will be about this) (26:57)
• Showing up – what will you do when it’s time to act? There is a way to contribute for everyone (28:09)
• iAwake’s Funnel to Help, Heal, and Support the Ukrainian People (30:15)
• IEC will be an opportunity to involve people from Latin America in the fight for democracy and freedom in Ukraine, and hear about their ongoing wars as well (32:35)
• IEC will sponsor a global discussion on war and peace everywhere; there are more than 100 wars going on at any given time on the planet (35:06)
• Are only autocratic leaders allowed to be bold, decisive, real, and authentic? (37:31)
• Zelensky is the role model for other democratic leaders (38:50)

Resources & References

• Integral European Conference 2022: World Peace with the Integral Approach, online and in Budapest
• Vytautas Bučiūnas’ website: Upgrade of Leader’s Operating System^TM
• Presencing Institute, founded in 2006 by MIT Sloan School of Management Senior Lecturer Otto Scharmer and colleagues to create an “action research platform at the intersection of science, consciousness, and profound social and organizational change.”
• Otto Scharmer, “Putin and the Power of Collective Action from Shared Awareness”
• Robb Smith, “Russia is Catalyzing the Transformation Age”
• Michael McFaul, columnist and former ambassador to Russia, “Ukraine is Putin’s Afghanistan,”
• Michael McFaul, “Why the West Must Boost Military Assistance to Ukraine”
• Robert Person & Michael McFaul, “What Putin Fears Most”
• Otto Scharmer, Theory U*
• Vytautas Bučiūnas’ website: Upgrade of Leader’s Operating System^TM
• The Annexation of Crimea
• The Budapest Memorandum

• * As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos

About the Deep Transformation series

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