“Not only does the Great Mystery surround us, but we are Mystery — our own being is Mystery.”Roger Walsh

Author, psychiatrist, professor, and Deep Transformation podcast co-host Roger Walsh was drawn to explore the remarkable world of shamanism—a tradition of opening to altered states, intuition, and profound insights and wisdom—when he found it was the one great world tradition he didn’t understand. He was intrigued by Romanian scholar Mircea Eliade’s description of the core feature of a shaman being “ecstatic flight,” and recognizing the lack of any easy to understand book on the subject, Roger was inspired to pursue this subject in depth and write the book himself! In his book and in this conversation, Roger provides us with a brilliant, big picture perspective, pointing out that at the heart of shamanism (and every great world tradition) are psychospiritual technologies—actual practices—that lead us to the doorway of the Great Mystery, and that service is the culmination of each tradition, both as a means to and an expression of one’s realization.

The dialogue is warm, open, and personal — Roger shares his experience of realizing the vastness of the inner world for the first time (“I felt like I’d lived my entire life on the top six inches of a wave on top of an ocean I didn’t even know existed!”), his realization that “as a culture, we are sleepwalking through life, unaware of the resources, capacities and gifts we bear within us,” and his coming to terms with the Great Mystery. John, too, shares his experiences within the Native American spiritual tradition: the power of the vision quest, prayer, drumming in ceremony, death medicine, and enduring trials in service to one’s people. Roger’s wonderful curiosity, integrity, graciousness, and keen intellect are all in evidence as he discusses the indeterminacy of spirit, mediumship, journeying, and death, and as he marvels at the bottomless, boundless mystery that both surrounds us and is us.

Recorded June 27, 2024.

Topics & Timestamps: Part 1

• Introducing Deep Transformation podcast co-host Roger Walsh, professor, psychiatrist, and author of The World of Shamanism and Essential Spirituality, among others (01:18)
• Roger’s book, The World of Shamanism—on the oldest spiritual tradition we know of, found all around the world (04:09)
• How was Roger drawn to write about shamanism? (06:36)
• Realizing at the heart of the world’s great religious traditions are psychospiritual technologies—actual practices—to induce the same states of consciousness the founders had discovered (09:31)
• Shamanism was the one tradition Roger couldn’t understand—after waiting for a good book on it to come out, Roger decided to write it himself (10:46)
• John’s experiences with Durwin White Lightning and Wallace Black Elk of the Lakota tribe, and the shamanic effects of connecting with nature (13:35)
• Roger’s investigation of shamanism included intensive training with Michael Harner, gnostic intermediary who introduced shamanism to the western world (18:38)
• Through direct experience and a lot of study, including the integral framework of Ken Wilber, Roger brings a big picture perspective to shamanism (22:54)
• Native American spirituality, death medicine, and the transformative power of the sweat lodge (23:39)
• The power of the rhythm of the drum in ceremony (27:27)
• The suffering in our world today reflects the artificial environments in which we live (30:17)
• The shamanic tradition is closely wedded to nature; going through endurances in the wild to help your people (35:08)
• John’s experience with vision questing and wolves (37:15)

Topics & Timestamps: Part 2

• The ethos of service at the heart of shamanism (00:55)
• Service is the culmination of shamanism—and every world tradition—both as a means to and an expression of one’s realization (02:20)
• Opening to the Great Mystery: we really don’t know what is going on (05:06)
• Castaneda’s 4 challenges to becoming a person of knowledge, particularly the challenge of clarity (09:08)
• Transconceptual intuition and Ken Wilber’s vision-logic (12:11)
• What about death? (16:21)
• Shamans were our first general practitioner, spiritual guide, tribal counselor, psychopomp, all rolled into one (18:04)
• How did humans discover this tradition? (20:04)
• What is a spirit? A construct of the psyche? An independent intelligence? (21:41)
• The powerful effects of mediumship throughout human history (24:07)
• The spiritual practice of journeying (27:55)
• Bottom line: shamans tap into the depths of the psyche and take us to the doorway of Mystery, leaving us there with remarkable potentials and possibilities (29:49)

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos

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About Roger Walsh

Roger Walsh, M.D., Ph.D., has spent nearly a quarter century researching and practicing in the world's great spiritual traditions. His critically acclaimed book, Essential Spirituality, is a summary of that wisdom, outlining the seven spiritual practices common to the world's major religions.

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About John Dupuy

John Dupuy is co-founder and CEO of iAwake Technologies, a company that creates cutting-edge, high-tech brainwave entrainment soundtracks that support the healing of emotional/shadow issues, deepen meditation, mental focus, creativity, and flow states, and enhance a daily integral transformative practice. John has been working personally and professionally with brainwave entrainment technology since 2004, and travels internationally to teach and inspire on the subjects of Integral Transformative Practice and Integral Recovery®. John is also the author of Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction (SUNY Press, 2013), winner of the 2013 USA Best Book Award, and co-host of the popular Journey of Integral Recovery podcast. John also hosts the online series Spiritual Tech Talks 2.0, in which he converses with leaders, pioneers, and inventors on the current wave of emerging spiritual technologies.